Attending/Resident Romantic Relationships

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So we have all heard of Grey's Anatomy, but I recently became aware of a program that had an attending dating a resident within the same department. They did their best to keep things quiet even going so far as to lie about it when asked, however they were outed by the attending's ex-girlfriend. Do you feel that this was unethical on the part of the attending? What are you thoughts about this kind of dynamic in a residency program? Do you think the Attending should have been fired? Has this ever happened in your program, and if so what were the consequences?

Originally Posted by Drflintsone

So we have all heard of Grey's Anatomy, but I recently became aware of a program that had an attending dating a resident within the same department. They did their best to keep things quiet even going so far as to lie about it when asked, however they were outed by the attending's ex-girlfriend. Do you feel that this was unethical on the part of the attending? What are you thoughts about this kind of dynamic in a residency program? Do you think the Attending should have been fired? Has this ever happened in your program, and if so what were the consequences?

how about a nice cup o' mind your own business!

I do appreciate the opinion, and I'll just assume underneath the sarcasm you mean to say that in your opinion the relationship would not matter and that in no way is the a violation of AMA or ACGME rules. I would really be interested in hearing what people honestly think, or what their experience has been (sarcasm aside)

There is nothing "wrong" with an attending dating a resident per se. Some institutions may have rules specifically banning this, In any case, the attending in question should decline to supervise / evaluate that resident forever going forward. In larger programs, this is usually not a big deal. In smaller programs, it may be impossible.

There was one incident of this in my program just before I started. They were on service at the same time. The attending involved essentially got demoted and ultimately left a while later for greener pastures. The relationship was very brief. They both quickly moved on to other people.

Other people did some flirting with each other, but no actual relationship developed.

Originally Posted by aProgDirector

There is nothing "wrong" with an attending dating a resident per se. Some institutions may have rules specifically banning this, In any case, the attending in question should decline to supervise / evaluate that resident forever going forward. In larger programs, this is usually not a big deal. In smaller programs, it may be impossible.

Because of the sexual harassment issue potential, it's always somewhat inappropriate for someone with supervisory capacity within a department (attending) to date someone who is a trainee. Happens all the time but any organizational handbook written by a lawyer is going to outright forbid this kind of fraternization -- it all too often doesn't end well, and so someone with the task of putting out fires is going to make sure this is forbidden as policy. Once the two break up, the resident may feel at least uncomfortable, if not one of the parties being actually vindictive (depending on the cause of the breakup), and these things quickly escalate into lawsuits and firings. I've seen it in non medical company settings often. Just a bad idea. So yeah, per your hospital handbook it may very well be something "wrong" per se.

It looks like it still happens.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/fa...-weddings.html

Originally Posted by belle54321

It looks like it still happens.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/fa...-weddings.html

They're neurosurgeons? Well, it's not like they would have time to meet people outside of work.

I have seen a couple of resident-attending relationships (within the same specialty even). It's not something I would ever do (I kind of think of attendings as being maternal/paternal figures) but as long as the attending isn't evaluating the resident I don't think it's that big of a deal.

Maybe it is more common than we all think, I got a PM from a resident who had this happen in their program. (Not neurosurgery). It sounds like it was fairly dramatic since the resident was given favor as the result of the relationship. The attending held a fairly high title in the department. Other residents who did not get along with the resident in question felt threatened, as if there would be relaliation for any disagreements (we all have them in residency). The pair would disappear for hours during the workday leaving everyone else wondering why they were suddenly short staffed. The attending in question still denied the relationship even when confronted by the rest of the department until finally witnesses were called in. The attending finally admitted to the relationship, but still demanded to be involved in training the resident. The attending was eventually relieved of his duties.

This situation sounds so different from the NYtimes article.

I did also hear of an attending having an affair with one of the resident's wives. Apparently there was some kind of confrontation about it at the department's yearly graduation, and the attending was eventually relocated to a different institution. This was ten years ago per the account however.

Originally Posted by Drflintsone

Maybe it is more common than we all think, I got a PM from a resident who had this happen in their program. (Not neurosurgery). It sounds like it was fairly dramatic since the resident was given favor as the result of the relationship. The attending held a fairly high title in the department. Other residents who did not get along with the resident in question felt threatened, as if there would be relaliation for any disagreements (we all have them in residency). The pair would disappear for hours during the workday leaving everyone else wondering why they were suddenly short staffed. The attending in question still denied the relationship even when confronted by the rest of the department until finally witnesses were called in. The attending finally admitted to the relationship, but still demanded to be involved in training the resident. The attending was eventually relieved of his duties.

This situation sounds so different from the NYtimes article.

I did also hear of an attending having an affair with one of the resident's wives. Apparently there was some kind of confrontation about it at the department's yearly graduation, and the attending was eventually relocated to a different institution. This was ten years ago per the account however.

I'm trying to figure out what your point is here.

Do attendings bang residents and med students? Yes.
Should they? No.
Is it possible that everything will work out OK in the end? Yes.
Is it likely to go that way? No.
Do these relationships leave all involved (including supervisors) open to legal repercussions? Yes.
Is this something that a rational person would engage in? No.

Well, the point is that the forum is designed as a place to share experiences and opinions and not just take quick, sarcastic jabs at one another. Gutonc, your response is extremely valuable just by stating you think a rational personal would never be involved in something like this.

My point is that these types of relationships are more common than we may think, and I wanted to invite people to share their experiences. Younger, more impressionable med students and residents alike may learn from these stories, and it may help them from making some rather poor choices in the future. You never know, your story may save some other poor schlep from making the same mistake you did.

I think a senior resident dating a jr or intern, or a resident or intern dating a med student, is far more common than an attending dating a resident. I don't think an attending should date a resident he/she needs to evaluate. A resident shouldn't be dating a med student he has to evaluate, either.

I don't think it is true that all institutions prevent people dating some above/below their level. It was specifically prohibited @the last hospital where I worked (and ignored for certain people...the medicine chief resident was dating a med student and the departmental leadership all knew about it and did nothing). My current hospital doesn't have such a policy, but does have a lot of specific policies about not sexually harassing people, not discriminating based on gender, sexual orientation, race, ethnic origin, or generally being "not nice" to trainees or other employees.

As an aside, there are 2 attendings in one of the departments who are married and started dating when he was an attending and she was a student or intern. He was divorced at the time so there was no breaking up of a marriage, etc. that was involved. They got married and now married for many many years.

Personally I think it shows poor judgement with the parties involved... I know once (former) attending that got married to an ex med student, but for me that was one symptom of the true issue of him being a hot mess. I understand we have limited ways of meeting potential mates and I wouldn't want to get in the way of true love or anything, but if people are going to do this they are IMO obligated to distance themselves from one another professionally especially if there is a power difference.

Originally Posted by Drflintsone

Maybe it is more common than we all think, I got a PM from a resident who had this happen in their program. (Not neurosurgery). It sounds like it was fairly dramatic since the resident was given favor as the result of the relationship. The attending held a fairly high title in the department. Other residents who did not get along with the resident in question felt threatened, as if there would be relaliation for any disagreements (we all have them in residency). The pair would disappear for hours during the workday leaving everyone else wondering why they were suddenly short staffed. The attending in question still denied the relationship even when confronted by the rest of the department until finally witnesses were called in. The attending finally admitted to the relationship, but still demanded to be involved in training the resident. The attending was eventually relieved of his duties.

This situation sounds so different from the NYtimes article.

I did also hear of an attending having an affair with one of the resident's wives. Apparently there was some kind of confrontation about it at the department's yearly graduation, and the attending was eventually relocated to a different institution. This was ten years ago per the account however.

WOW.

Now Thats Low...

Originally Posted by gutonc

Is this something that a rational person would engage in? No.

Love can make a rational person become irrational.

Originally Posted by High Roller

WOW.

Now Thats Low...

I know. Wow.

Per AMA code of medical ethics:

"Sexual relationships between medical supervisors and their medical trainees raise concerns because of inherent inequalities in the status and power that medical supervisors wield in relation to medical trainees and may adversely affect patient care. Sexual relationships between a medical trainee and a supervisor even when consensual are not acceptable regardless of the degree of supervision in any given situation. The supervisory role should be eliminated if the parties involved wish to pursue their relationship. (II, IV, VII) Issued March 1992 based on the report "Sexual Harassment and Exploitation Between Medical Supervisors and Trainees," adopted June 1989; Updated June 1994."

Also a good reference on this topic:
http://virtualmentor.ama-assn.org/20...cas3-1001.html

Continuing to be an attending in a residency program whereby you are married or involved with a resident is unethical. Step down,dislcose and pursue your relationship...certainly don't continue to lie and manipulate people.

whenever the subject of coworkers dating comes up, one of the arguments against it that people always give is "what if it ends badly?"

maybe I'm a statistical outlier here? all my relationships have ended amicably. I mean if I catch a whiff of crazy I don't let a relationship start in the first place. and if I knew I'd have to still be around the person post-breakup, I'd be extra careful to make sure things ended amicably...

Originally Posted by sisko

...
maybe I'm a statistical outlier here? all my relationships have ended amicably...

you could be a statistical outlier, or one or more of your exes may have very different views as to how amicably things ended.

Originally Posted by Law2Doc

you could be a statistical outlier, or one or more of your exes may have very different views as to how amicably things ended.

LOL...that is so true. I don't agree that often with law2doc, but here I totally do.