Do you believe organic chemistry is a good predictor of the ability to do well i

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Do you believe organic chemistry is a good predictor of a student's ability to do well in medical school?

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Correct poll question: Is organic chemistry a good predictor of the ability to do well in med school?

I think it help demonstrates ones ability to do the work.

Originally Posted by Holy FranZ

I think it help demonstrates ones ability to do the work.

Agreed. I hope there is a small correlation at least.

From a Dean of Admissions:

"The way organic chem is graded and taught by different schools is the most similar of all the pre-med prerequisites."--> There is a lot of variability in bio/math/phys that but not o.chem

So its a more standardized, unofficial way to directly compare you to other premeds besides mcat. It just shows your ability to painfully memorize large amounts of information (hard work/determination for a class that nobody wants to take)

Any comments that orgo is not a good predictor.

I found that Orgo required a lot more pattern identification than strict memorization. I did great in Orgo but I don't think that means I'll be awesome in med school. Orgo is nothing compared to the sheer volume of information you must acquire for med school.

Originally Posted by tima

Any comments that orgo is not a good predictor.

I don't think any legit studies have been done on this (although, maybe...I'm not searching though).

That said, all SDN can do is offer anecdotal input from both sides of the fence (i.e. "yea, I aced Ochem and am Junior AOA!" and "Hell no, I got a C in Ochem and matched Plastics!").

In other words, our input don't mean sht.

Originally Posted by Cal Grad

From a Dean of Admissions:

"The way organic chem is graded and taught by different schools is the most similar of all the pre-med prerequisites."--> There is a lot of variability in bio/math/phys that but not o.chem

I would think the exact opposite, actually. The material in mechanics, electromagnetism, calculus, and introductory statistics is fairly well standardized across the board. But I know for a fact that my orgo class covered things that some of my friends at other institutions didn't, especially in orgo II. And vice-versa.

Originally Posted by TheMightySmiter

I found that Orgo required a lot more pattern identification than strict memorization. I did great in Orgo but I don't think that means I'll be awesome in med school. Orgo is nothing compared to the sheer volume of information you must acquire for med school.

This. I got an A in organic and I think it's completely different from classes like A&P which emphasize different skill sets. It is possible that orgo helps you perform better in Biochem, but probably not super significantly.

Originally Posted by Cal Grad

From a Dean of Admissions:

"The way organic chem is graded and taught by different schools is the most similar of all the pre-med prerequisites."--> There is a lot of variability in bio/math/phys that but not o.chem

So its a more standardized, unofficial way to directly compare you to other premeds besides mcat. It just shows your ability to painfully memorize large amounts of information (hard work/determination for a class that nobody wants to take)

I disagree here. The key to success in organic chemistry is to realize that you can't memorize every reaction, but instead you need to grasp the underlying principles that guide them. As one of my professors aptly put it, organic chemistry is the behavioral psychology of electrons. If anything, I would argue the higher level of thinking this course demands lends itself to generally talented students, who tend to perform well in all subject areas. And although I can't comment from experience, I highly doubt one's performance in o-chem is correlated in any significant way with success in medical school, other than the obvious fact that most medical students got an A/B in the course as an undergrad, and the majority of those who earned a C or lower didn't gain acceptance.

I liked ochem a lot so I might be a little biased. But personally because I did well in it, Biochem--and hopefully pharmacology later--is THAT much easier for me now (did a post-bacc this year where I took first year med school courses, Biochem being one of them). At the very least, it's most people's first exposure to an extremely rigorous subject/huge workload so it's good for developing patience and effective study skills/ability to withstand bs.

Originally Posted by JABWS

I disagree here. The key to success in organic chemistry is to realize that you can't memorize every reaction, but instead you need to grasp the underlying principles that guide them. As one of my professors aptly put it, organic chemistry is the behavioral psychology of electrons. If anything, I would argue the higher level of thinking this course demands lends itself to generally talented students, who tend to perform well in all subject areas. And although I can't comment from experience, I highly doubt one's performance in o-chem is correlated in any significant way with success in medical school, other than the obvious fact that most medical students got an A/B in the course as an undergrad, and the majority of those who earned a C or lower didn't gain acceptance.

But that is medicine. Applying fundamentals to memorize the key aspects of disease/progression of disease, etc.

At any rate, doing well in anything academic is going to be positively correlated with success in med school. To what extent, who knows.

I second the notions that organic is variable between schools, not memorization based, and that our opinions on this have no bearing on whatever predictive value the courses actually have.


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The subject matter of Orgo probably doesn't relate to the subject matter in med school all that much. But I don't doubt there is a correlation to how well people did in orgo to how well people can do in med school.

Originally Posted by loveoforganic

But that is medicine. Applying fundamentals to memorize the key aspects of disease/progression of disease, etc.

At any rate, doing well in anything academic is going to be positively correlated with success in med school. To what extent, who knows.

That's where I was going with my comment, I just didn't want to get blasted for talking about medicine without actually having started medical school.

Edit: In addition to your post, I think the two above this one are dead on as well.

.

The skills it takes to learn o chem well might help you in medical school.

Wouldn't courses like biochemistry and immunology be better predictors? I understand the logistical limitations for requiring advanced coursework from all premeds, though......so, from that viewpoint, maybe OChem is the best alternative?

Originally Posted by oohhii

it depends. are you taking orgo with 12 credits or with 18-22 credits? are you taking science classes? are they upper level courses? do you have other commitments?

there's a difference between being to able to ace orgo by studying 10 hours a week versus being able to ace it or even get a B+ studying 5 hours a week. obviously being efficient with your studying is not enough because in the end all that matters it how much you actually jam into your brain, but i really think it depends on your other classes and obligations. on my campus, course load (obviously with a decent GPA) appears to correlate with acceptances into medical schools. i'm not saying that medical schools care about course load (i don't really know), but these students seem to take on a lot more responsibilities besides studying and this makes them very efficent with their study habits

The quantity of studying is irrelevant in organic if you know what you're doing. Seemed intuitive to me, so I got away with less studying, on average, than for a simpler class like a&p. But everyone's different, and I know many fine doctors who didn't do well in organic, so I'd say that while it's another metric its value as a predictor of success is limited.

The best predictor of academic success in med school is having succeeded academically in med school.

I don't see how orgo can be a better predictor for med school success than other courses. Actually, I don't think you can pick one undergrad course and say "if you get an A here, you will be a rockstar med student". There are too many variables involved. As much as I would love for that to be true regarding orgo because I did very well in it, if you saw me in physics or calculus... totally different story. I tutored orgo for a while after I finished it and noticed that the students who had an easier time grasping the material actually came from strong backgrounds in the arts or had a knack for learning foreign languages. I come from an arts background as well and feel like the ability to picture the reactions in my head in 3-D really helped, I didn't have to spend hours writing mechanisms over and over to get them to stick. Plus its pretty and I love to draw! Obviously plenty of hard core science students do well in orgo too, I'm just saying that everyone has different skill sets and some courses just happen to play to those strengths.

Originally Posted by TheMightySmiter

The best predictor of academic success in med school is having succeeded academically in med school.

This. Why are people saying ochem is a standard of comparison? People have different schedule loads, professors, luck, etc.

Originally Posted by TheMightySmiter

The best predictor of academic success in med school is having succeeded academically in med school.

I think you need to look up the definition of "predictor."

From what I could find on pubmed, organic chemistry seems to have some predictive value for success in medical school, particularly the pre-clinical years. If you tend to do well in science courses, you tend to do well during years 1 and 2. Unfortunately, I don't have access to the articles so I couldn't see how strong their correlations were, but there appears to be a consensus by researchers on the issue.

The take-home message is to try to do consistently well in your science courses. I think medical schools tend to look at the aggregate of science grades rather than individual classes.

Probably just a decent indicator of how well one can handle/do the work. But it can be speculated that there are a lot of cases with people who got low grades in O-chem and then did well in med school.

Originally Posted by greatnt249

I think you need to look up the definition of "predictor."

I think you need to fine-tune your intentional-paradox-ometer.


My point was not to give a real definition, my point was to emphasize that no one knows how well they will do in med school until they actually experience it.

Impossible to tell. Some people that were superstars in undergrad will be average in med school, and some that were only above average students will be honors. I rocked in organic, was average-ish in the other prereqs, but got all As in neuroscience. Who knows?

Definitely a better predictor than any other single class IMO, But I don't think you could use a single class to predict performance.

Originally Posted by Cal Grad

From a Dean of Admissions:

"The way organic chem is graded and taught by different schools is the most similar of all the pre-med prerequisites."--> There is a lot of variability in bio/math/phys that but not o.chem

So its a more standardized, unofficial way to directly compare you to other premeds besides mcat. It just shows your ability to painfully memorize large amounts of information (hard work/determination for a class that nobody wants to take)

my organic professor taught for over 30, maybe 40 years and learned organic so long ago I know for a fact I had a worse time that students at other schools with a younger professor.
Our professor wrote equations on the board and made us memorize them. He never taught why different molecules reacted or why...anything really.
I had an awful time. I never learned anything until I took an MCAT prep course.
I had never seen those line drawings of molecules! Never heard of resonance or induction...
So anyway I obviously vote no that organic is not a good predictor because not all organic classes are the same!!

Ochem is not hard!!! You freaking neurotic premeds disgust me. All I heard at my school was nothing but negatives about ochem....it was the easiest chem class one can take....just Flucking study!

Organic chem can also serve as a weed out course.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12114149

Premed survival: understanding the culling process in premedical undergraduate education.

Abstract
PURPOSE:
Why undergraduate students pursue or drop a premedical curriculum has received only scant attention. In this study the authors attempted to uncover reasons why students either persevere in their premedical studies or seek alternative careers.

METHOD:
Using convenience sampling, the authors surveyed 97 undergraduates at a small liberal arts college from November 2000 to March 2001. Of those surveyed, 44 were former premed students who completed a three-page questionnaire about why they had decided not to become physicians; 53 premed students completed a two-page questionnaire about their career aspirations.

RESULTS:
The response rate was 100%. Premed students were attracted to the field by the intellectual stimulation and the power to help others, yet most were also very concerned about being in debt, dealing with patients who might die, and the compatibility of medicine with having a family. Women students were more concerned than the men about having only limited time to become acquainted with patients on a social level (71% of women versus 45% of men: p =.05). The decision of students to forgo a career as a physician was shaped by apprehensions regarding the years of work required in residency, the need to be on call, unacceptably low grades, and the realization that other attractive career options are available. Of those who said low grades were a deciding factor, most (78%) named organic chemistry as the single course that had affected their plans. Students who acknowledged the role of their poor performance in organic chemistry were more likely to be dissatisfied with their change in plans than were those who did not identify this course as influential (44% versus 29%).

CONCLUSIONS:
Although the sampling technique and sample size severely limit the authors' ability to generalize their findings, the data offer a starting point for those interested in the reasons for the drop in medical school applicants. The authors state the fact that most former premed students admitted organic chemistry had played a significant role in the change in their career plans deserves attention, and it may be time to consider whether a single course should contribute to eliminating persons who might otherwise excel as physicians.

When I was volunteering in the O.R I had a conversation with one of the surgeons and I asked him how he liked Organic Chemistry. He said that he barely passed the class and hated every second of it. Though doing well in Organic Chemistry shows one's hard work, doing poorly does not indicate that you will not succeed in medical school.

Originally Posted by tima

Organic chem can also serve as a weed out course.

I'm so anxious to take on this big bad wolf. I really want to see how bad it is.

Originally Posted by torshi

Ochem is not hard!!! You freaking neurotic premeds disgust me. All I heard at my school was nothing but negatives about ochem....it was the easiest chem class one can take....just Flucking study!

+1, everyone can get an A if they don't waste time.

Originally Posted by OREdwardsJR

I'm so anxious to take on this big bad wolf. I really want to see how bad it is.

It isn't.

Granted, that's only my opinion and I'm biased because it was one of my favorites, but ochem really is not that bad.

Originally Posted by ur2l8

+1, everyone can get an A if they don't waste time.

no they can't.

Originally Posted by kpcrew

no they can't.

Indirectly or directly, if they don't waste time...they can. So as long as we're talking about a generalized college organic course. My opinion.

I'm a little biased, as I taught and tutored in OChem, but I don't think OChem necessarily has much to do with medical school stuff (might help you in biochem and pharm). There are two ways to learn OChem: recognizing patterns or straight memorization. If you go with memorization, those skills will serve you well in medical school. If you go with recognizing patterns, it probably won't help you much with the nonclinical years (and you will probably be frustrated with having to memorize stuff for tests).

Originally Posted by tima

Any comments that orgo is not a good predictor.

Personally I think its a fraction of a fraction on a human beings ability to do well in Medical School, only because there are so many other elements to consider when considering both academic and the other aspects

If everyone tried equally hard in O chem I would say maybe. The style of memorization needed to do well in medical school is going to be different in comparison to the study techniques used in O chem. However, the general idea is the same, learn as many pointless tidbits as possible and regurgitate.

Originally Posted by ur2l8

Indirectly or directly, if they don't waste time...they can. So as long as we're talking about a generalized college organic course. My opinion.

Clearly you haven't met these "most people" you speak of