Even our moderator wouldn't do it again...

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Our moderator, Dr. Ben Chudner, was interviewed for SDN's monthly article about optometry. Intrigued to read that Dr. Chudner (knowing what he knows now) would not have gone through optometry school but instead have choosen dentistry.

I think preopts need to seriously reevaluate their futures.

http://studentdoctor.net/2012/07/20-...o-d-f-a-a-o-2/

"If you had it to do all over again, would you still become an optometrist? (Why or why not? What would you have done instead?)
That’s actually a difficult question to answer. If I had to do it all over again back in 1993 when I entered optometry school, I definitely would. I have been very fortunate in my career. If I was looking at optometry today, knowing what I know today, then I don’t think I would still become an optometrist. I say that because I’ve worked in just about every setting you can imagine, and I know that I would not be happy unless I could be in a private practice. That being said, if someone looking at the profession understands that most likely they will work in a corporate setting for at least the first several years, if not their entire career, and is fine with that, then I think this is still a good career choice. I didn’t become an optometrist I probably would have considered dentistry."

Oh dead lord, not again. This was already brought up in the pre-optometry section and everyone has already read. Get ready folks this will get ugly, not getting involved in this whatsoever.

Originally Posted by q1we3

Oh dead lord, not again. This was already brought up in the pre-optometry section and everyone has already read. Get ready folks this will get ugly, not getting involved in this whatsoever.

You just did get involved.

Originally Posted by blazenmadison

Our moderator, Dr. Ben Chudner, was interviewed for SDN's monthly article about optometry. Intrigued to read that Dr. Chudner (knowing what he knows now) would not have gone through optometry school but instead have choosen dentistry.

I think preopts need to seriously reevaluate their futures.

http://studentdoctor.net/2012/07/20-...o-d-f-a-a-o-2/

"If you had it to do all over again, would you still become an optometrist? (Why or why not? What would you have done instead?)
That’s actually a difficult question to answer. If I had to do it all over again back in 1993 when I entered optometry school, I definitely would. I have been very fortunate in my career. If I was looking at optometry today, knowing what I know today, then I don’t think I would still become an optometrist. I say that because I’ve worked in just about every setting you can imagine, and I know that I would not be happy unless I could be in a private practice. That being said, if someone looking at the profession understands that most likely they will work in a corporate setting for at least the first several years, if not their entire career, and is fine with that, then I think this is still a good career choice. I didn’t become an optometrist I probably would have considered dentistry."

What we need is some super optimistic recent grad who actually makes a good living to tell everyone how great things are. Oh wait, there isn't anyone like that out there.

Originally Posted by blazenmadison

Our moderator, Dr. Ben Chudner, was interviewed for SDN's monthly article about optometry. Intrigued to read that Dr. Chudner (knowing what he knows now) would not have gone through optometry school but instead have choosen dentistry.

I think preopts need to seriously reevaluate their futures.

http://studentdoctor.net/2012/07/20-...o-d-f-a-a-o-2/

"If you had it to do all over again, would you still become an optometrist? (Why or why not? What would you have done instead?)
That’s actually a difficult question to answer. If I had to do it all over again back in 1993 when I entered optometry school, I definitely would. I have been very fortunate in my career. If I was looking at optometry today, knowing what I know today, then I don’t think I would still become an optometrist. I say that because I’ve worked in just about every setting you can imagine, and I know that I would not be happy unless I could be in a private practice. That being said, if someone looking at the profession understands that most likely they will work in a corporate setting for at least the first several years, if not their entire career, and is fine with that, then I think this is still a good career choice. I didn’t become an optometrist I probably would have considered dentistry."

Sorry to be nosy from another forum, but the thread made me curious.

So is this just his opinion based on his experiences, or is this the general consensus on SDN and/or the optometry community? Is this even a bad thing (just curious)?

He only says he'd consider dentistry, who knows if he would've actually gone for it after really shadowing and investigating the profession.

I can't believe it's so bad across the board, if it was, wouldn't all these doctors being shadowed by preopts be telling them how it is and scaring them away? I guess I'd follow up by asking what Dr. Ben Chudner and you other Optometrists here are telling the preopts that shadow you?

Originally Posted by Kahr

I can't believe it's so bad across the board, if it was, wouldn't all these doctors being shadowed by preopts be telling them how it is and scaring them away?

This is part of the main problem - it's not that bad across the board. Older, established ODs are doing very well for themselves. They built their practices during a time that saw low student loans for new grads, far less commercial invasion, no online retail presence, and far better reimbursements. The problem is that new grads look at what older ODs have and they think they can attain the same thing. They can't. The rules are not the same anymore. What new grads have to look forward to is a career in the exploding commercial optometry world. Private practice is on the decline. Will a few newer grads manage to squeak into a good position somewhere? Of course, but the majority will be pumped out into the commercial mills to enjoy declining pay and increasing hours, feeding the problem even further.

For whatever reason, and I don't have a good answer for why this is, but ODs are far more likely to conceal the truth about how they feel regarding the outlook of the profession. I'm guilty of this myself, partially out of necessity. When I used to work in academics, I routinely had to answer questions from prospective applicants and their parents. I tried to be as honest as possible, but there is no way to do that and keep your job at the same time, at least in a academic setting. I know plenty of ODs who provide shadowing experience to students and let's just say that what's told to those students doesn't quite mirror what's said in private.

In short, it IS that bad out there. My lifeboat analogy will hold true - I'm certain of it. There can be no other outcome, given the forces that are being applied to the profession. A few new/er grads will find "good" landing spots, whatever that might be, the rest will fall into commercial optometry, further sinking the profession by driving down reimbursement levels, drowning out private practice, and lowering the quality of the profession in terms of practitioner skill level. When I see students bragging about getting accepted with OATs in the 200s and GPAs in the low 2s, I know the profession is doomed.

Its hard to admit one has made a mistake after investing so much...
Anyone would have difficulty doing that.

How can I tell a birght eyed college student excited about my field.."you know, I think this was a mistake." Its tough...
I love optometry and think its great but I am unique and recognize that..most people in my field are frustrated. What are they frustrated with?

frustrated with reimbursements overall
frustrated with increasing operating costs
frustrated with commercial competition
frustrated with decreased revenue from glasses
frustrated with "eye insurance" that reduces our reimbursements
frustrated with lack of respect from the medical community
frustrated with lack of respect from our patients (in certain situations like in a commercial environment)
frustrated with our political organizations pushing for things that most practicing ODs don't care about or want (board certification and/or surgical rights)
frustrated with opticians lobbying to get more rights to do what we do
frustrated with not getting the salary and income that was promised in school
frustrated with not being able to get a job after graduation
frustrated with having to work for commercial like a pharmacist at CVS

I was handed a practice by my dad who is an OMD and took it over with my brother who is an OMD..I am unique. 1% of graduates will start with what I have...Most will be frustrated...

I'm a doctor. I make a 100K per year wah wah wah.

would you be ok with 60 grand a year?
Knowing that if you had not gone to optometry school you would be making the same amount if you had just started working?

Originally Posted by Dirk Funk

I'm a doctor. I make a 100K per year wah wah wah.

Obviously, you're not an optometrist or you wouldn't be making such ignorant statements. You also wouldn't be referring to the ability to say you're a doctor as the first item in your list of two "plusses." It's pretty clear from the rest of your nonsense posts (I've read some of them), that you are not an OD, but rather a young, inexperienced OD student. Even your status as "An Obama guy" is a dead give away.

So, how's life at SUNY? What are you a 1st year or a 2nd year?

Oh, and for what it's worth....you won't be making anything close to 100K when you graduate. Just a little afterthought.

Originally Posted by Jason K

Obviously, you're not an optometrist or you wouldn't be making such ignorant statements. You also wouldn't be referring to the ability to say you're a doctor as the first item in your list of two "plusses." It's pretty clear from the rest of your nonsense posts (I've read some of them), that you are not an OD, but rather a young, inexperienced OD student. Even your status as "An Obama guy" is a dead give away.

So, how's life at SUNY? What are you a 1st year or a 2nd year?

Oh, and for what it's worth....you won't be making anything close to 100K when you graduate. Just a little afterthought.

Nah, he's a troll. Bunch of ridiculous posts in the past 48 hrs. Ignore.

I think some people are misreading what was written. I am happy to answer any questions about optometry and what I wrote.

Originally Posted by Ben Chudner

I think some people are misreading what was written. I am happy to answer any questions about optometry and what I wrote.

So what did you mean? Do you think future students should still go into Optometry?

Originally Posted by Optomchick

So what did you mean? Do you think future students should still go into Optometry?

Or to rephrase the question: Would you advise your children to pursue optometry as a career or would you steer them clear, knowing what you know now about the profession...

Originally Posted by Meibomian SxN

Or to rephrase the question: Would you advise your children to pursue optometry as a career or would you steer them clear, knowing what you know now about the profession...

I would have a serious conversation with my children about their expectations. The reason I prbably would not do it now based on what I know of the profession is because I did not enjoy being in a corporate location. It's not that there was anyhing wrong with it, but I really disliked the situation. If you go into optometry with the expectation that you will find work in a really nice private practice with the option to become a partner in 5 years, you will most likely be disappointed. That was my expectation when I graduated and even back then that was hard to find. I got very lucky when I found the practice I eventually purchased. If you go into optometry understanding that most likely you will end up working either part time in multiple practices, or working for one of the boxes, and that's what you want to do, then I think optometry can still be a rewarding profession.

Originally Posted by CL Doc

What we need is some super optimistic recent grad who actually makes a good living to tell everyone how great things are. Oh wait, there isn't anyone like that out there.

lmao, you'd probably be awesome to have a few beers with.

Originally Posted by mclem222

I was handed a practice by my dad who is an OMD and took it over with my brother who is an OMD..I am unique. 1% of graduates will start with what I have...Most will be frustrated...

Very awesome sir.

Originally Posted by Ben Chudner

I would have a serious conversation with my children about their expectations. The reason I prbably would not do it now based on what I know of the profession is because I did not enjoy being in a corporate location. It's not that there was anyhing wrong with it, but I really disliked the situation. If you go into optometry with the expectation that you will find work in a really nice private practice with the option to become a partner in 5 years, you will most likely be disappointed. That was my expectation when I graduated and even back then that was hard to find. I got very lucky when I found the practice I eventually purchased. If you go into optometry understanding that most likely you will end up working either part time in multiple practices, or working for one of the boxes, and that's what you want to do, then I think optometry can still be a rewarding profession.

I wouldn't mind working in a corporate place like Costco, do you think it's even possible to find a full-time associate position due to the over-saturation of graduates?

I am afraid this what the schedule of most future grads will look like
Mon-Tue Costco
Wed-Thurs Walmart
Fri-Sat Lenscrapters
Sunday join Jason k on the forums

Originally Posted by Optomchick

I wouldn't mind working in a corporate place like Costco, do you think it's even possible to find a full-time associate position due to the over-saturation of graduates?

I really don't know what it's like out there anymore.

Originally Posted by Optomchick

I wouldn't mind working in a corporate place like Costco, do you think it's even possible to find a full-time associate position due to the over-saturation of graduates?

I returned to the metro-Portland area after 3 years overseas. I have been able to locate a consistent one day a week gig at a commercial practice after looking for a year. The rest of my days are spent sitting around getting poorer or working the very, very sparse locum work I can find. My wife, also an optometrist, is much luckier than I, as she has found a consistent 2 days per week in a commercial practice.

It is beyond tough for optometrists out there. You need to get out of any area near an optometry school and you're better off looking for your own practice (be it private or a commercial lease) then hoping to become an "employee".

Originally Posted by xmattODx

I returned to the metro-Portland area after 3 years overseas. I have been able to locate a consistent one day a week gig at a commercial practice after looking for a year. The rest of my days are spent sitting around getting poorer or working the very, very sparse locum work I can find. My wife, also an optometrist, is much luckier than I, as she has found a consistent 2 days per week in a commercial practice.

It is beyond tough for optometrists out there. You need to get out of any area near an optometry school and you're better off looking for your own practice (be it private or a commercial lease) then hoping to become an "employee".

YOU NEGATIVE, WHINING LOSER. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. Sorry, I just wanted to say that before a bunch of know-it-all students did. it's coming.

No matter how many practicing ODs tell everyone how bad it is, there will still be people saying we have no clue what we are talking about. Thanks for telling it like it is. Maybe you'll help save one or two people from a mistake.

I just realize they discussed this in the preopt forum. Sorry for bringing it over in the optometry forum.

You can find a job in optometry...it's just some place you may not want to live. And you may have to find multiple part-time jobs to make a full-time position.. If you want to practice in Seattle or Chicago, good luck. Even rural areas are getting saturated.

Originally Posted by Jason K

...

Oh, and for what it's worth....you won't be making anything close to 100K when you graduate. Just a little afterthought.

What would you say is the average salary of an OD? A friend of mine gets paid $400.00 a day, that's pretty close to the 100k figure if you work regular hours.

According to salary.com, that's not too far off.

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/o...y-Details.aspx

Regard,

Mike

Originally Posted by panamamike

What would you say is the average salary of an OD? A friend of mine gets paid $400.00 a day, that's pretty close to the 100k figure if you work regular hours.

According to salary.com, that's not too far off.

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/o...y-Details.aspx

Regard,

Mike

I actually need a new contact prescription so I thought I'd call a local private practice (I've always gone to Costco)...the receptionist told me it was STARTING price at $170 for an exam PLUS $150 for contact lens prescription, that's about $320 without tax! The local Lenscrafters charges $115 for the entire exam with contact lens prescription and I get %30 off for AAA member. I guess I'm wondering how the hell he's able to charge that much and stay in business...I mean if all privates charge this high I'm not surprised Optometry is going corporate in this economy.

Originally Posted by Optomchick

I actually need a new contact prescription so I thought I'd call a local private practice (I've always gone to Costco)...the receptionist told me it was STARTING price at $170 for an exam PLUS $150 for contact lens prescription, that's about $320 without tax! The local Lenscrafters charges $115 for the entire exam with contact lens prescription and I get %30 off for AAA member. I guess I'm wondering how the hell he's able to charge that much and stay in business...I mean if all privates charge this high I'm not surprised Optometry is going corporate in this economy.

I don't know, that's a good question, the exams are typically in the $45.00 range. I suppose you'd have to ask exactly what's included in the eye exam.

I don't know much about the optometry, but from what I read in other posts, the discount eye exams locations typically skip some of the eye tests a private practice OD would run as standard. By doing this, they can keep the eye exam to the bare minimum for a new script, make prices appear cheaper. Maybe if you're concerned about your eye health you pay the extra $'s?

I agree with most on the board that express frustration; the corporatization of Optometry is cutting into an OD's ability to earn the same kind of money earned in the past.

Unfortunately, OD's are loosing the bread and butter, eye glasses sales, to Walmart, Costco and now the internet. That means, all they're left with are the eye exams. Only way to make money is to increase the cost of those exams.

We'll see how things turn out...

Mike

Originally Posted by panamamike

I don't know, that's a good question, the exams are typically in the $45.00 range. I suppose you'd have to ask exactly what's included in the eye exam.

I don't know much about the optometry, but from what I read in other posts, the discount eye exams locations typically skip some of the eye tests a private practice OD would run as standard. By doing this, they can keep the eye exam to the bare minimum for a new script, make prices appear cheaper. Maybe if you're concerned about your eye health you pay the extra $'s?

I agree with most on the board that express frustration; the corporatization of Optometry is cutting into an OD's ability to earn the same kind of money earned in the past.

Unfortunately, OD's are loosing the bread and butter, eye glasses sales, to Walmart, Costco and now the internet. That means, all they're left with are the eye exams. Only way to make money is to increase the cost of those exams.

We'll see how things turn out...

Mike

Maybe its $45 with insurance? I don't have vision insurance and even Walmart seems to start at $100 around here...

Originally Posted by Optomchick

Maybe its $45 with insurance? I don't have vision insurance and even Walmart seems to start at $100 around here...

Think it's without insurance, take a look at the link below.

http://eyeexamcoupons.org/walmart-vi...eye-exam-cost/

google Warby Parker...a lot of patients are getting their glasses there...feel good and cheap..

Originally Posted by panamamike

What would you say is the average salary of an OD? A friend of mine gets paid $400.00 a day, that's pretty close to the 100k figure if you work regular hours.

According to salary.com, that's not too far off.

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/o...y-Details.aspx

Regard,

Mike

I don't want to turn this into a "What does an average OD make?" thread. What the average OD out there makes, and what a new grad can expect (now or ever in their career as an OD) to make are two unrelated numbers. There are established ODs out there who make over $1M annually. There are others who make hundreds of thousands by employing droves of "worker ODs." $400 per day is a decent wage and not impossible for a new grad to find, but it will be in an out-of-the-way location. You're not going to find that in or near a city of just about any kind, at least not in significant numbers. There's always the "Well, I know this one guy, and he....." situations. There's also the "...if you work regular hours." Many grads are not able to find regular hours and end up stringing together as much as they can. I know some grads who actually have worked outside of optometry because they couldn't fill their schedules.

The problem these days is that new grads do not enter the profession that's described on Salary.com or Wikepedia, or the BLS. They enter a TOTALLY different profession that is hidden from them. New grads are graduating into a world in which FT positions are just impossible to find in significant numbers. They're working PT at many locations, taking whatever pay they can get. They don't mention that on Salary.com.

Originally Posted by Jason K

I don't want to turn this into a "What does an average OD make?" thread. What the average OD out there makes, and what a new grad can expect (now or ever in their career as an OD) to make are two unrelated numbers. There are established ODs out there who make over $1M annually. There are others who make hundreds of thousands by employing droves of "worker ODs." $400 per day is a decent wage and not impossible for a new grad to find, but it will be in an out-of-the-way location. You're not going to find that in or near a city of just about any kind, at least not in significant numbers. There's always the "Well, I know this one guy, and he....." situations. There's also the "...if you work regular hours." Many grads are not able to find regular hours and end up stringing together as much as they can. I know some grads who actually have worked outside of optometry because they couldn't fill their schedules.

The problem these days is that new grads do not enter the profession that's described on Salary.com or Wikepedia, or the BLS. They enter a TOTALLY different profession that is hidden from them. New grads are graduating into a world in which FT positions are just impossible to find in significant numbers. They're working PT at many locations, taking whatever pay they can get. They don't mention that on Salary.com.

I've talked to some recent grads and most seem to be making about $350 a day, regardless of practice mode. The larger issue, as Jason points out, is the inability to get fulltime work.

Originally Posted by Jason K

I don't want to turn this into a "What does an average OD make?" thread. What the average OD out there makes, and what a new grad can expect (now or ever in their career as an OD) to make are two unrelated numbers. There are established ODs out there who make over $1M annually. There are others who make hundreds of thousands by employing droves of "worker ODs." $400 per day is a decent wage and not impossible for a new grad to find, but it will be in an out-of-the-way location. You're not going to find that in or near a city of just about any kind, at least not in significant numbers. There's always the "Well, I know this one guy, and he....." situations. There's also the "...if you work regular hours." Many grads are not able to find regular hours and end up stringing together as much as they can. I know some grads who actually have worked outside of optometry because they couldn't fill their schedules.

The problem these days is that new grads do not enter the profession that's described on Salary.com or Wikepedia, or the BLS. They enter a TOTALLY different profession that is hidden from them. New grads are graduating into a world in which FT positions are just impossible to find in significant numbers. They're working PT at many locations, taking whatever pay they can get. They don't mention that on Salary.com.

Fair enough, but this can be said about any profession. If you go into a highly competitive market, typically places people find most desirable to live, you're going to run into this type of problem. That's just the nature of the beast, even doctors, those working in hospitals, have trouble finding work in highly desirable markets.

This may be a period in time where there's an oversupply of ODs out there, but again that's par for the course. It happens in many different disciplines. For example, I'm an IT guy. When I started out there where very few people in the market and people were making money hand over fist. Fast forward a few years and there's an over flooding of people in the field and now it's hard to find work. Fast forward a couple more years and now we see fewer people choosing to enter that area of the work force. Enrollment in IT has dropped about 50%. Why? Because the market changed.

It's certainly no fun living it, especially if you got to see the upside and now are living on the downside, but so is life...

Mike

Originally Posted by panamamike

Fair enough, but this can be said about any profession. If you go into a highly competitive market, typically places people find most desirable to live, you're going to run into this type of problem. That's just the nature of the beast, even doctors, those working in hospitals, have trouble finding work in highly desirable markets.

This may be a period in time where there's an oversupply of ODs out there, but again that's par for the course. It happens in many different disciplines. For example, I'm an IT guy. When I started out there where very few people in the market and people were making money hand over fist. Fast forward a few years and there's an over flooding of people in the field and now it's hard to find work. Fast forward a couple more years and now we see fewer people choosing to enter that area of the work force. Enrollment in IT has dropped about 50%. Why? Because the market changed.

It's certainly no fun living it, especially if you got to see the upside and now are living on the downside, but so is life...

Mike

This is the approach most pre-optometry students take when they want to justify their entry into a field that does not want or need them. If the problem were purely an oversupply issue, then I'd be more inclined to accept this line of thinking. The problem is, the oversupply issue is just the tip of the iceberg. You can't escape it by going rural or by going to a less populated city. The entire profession is diseased now and it all stems from the oversupply issue. The oversupply problem has facilitated the cancerous growth of the commercial side of the profession, it's assisted in the insurance industry abuse we've suffered, and it will only get worse. The best part is, the damage is irreversible, in my opinion. Even if it could be reversed, there is no leadership present to initiate the massive changes that would be required to start it. Our own AOA is literally working against us. The profession is going to continue on a downhill slide until it hits bottom at some point. If you want to enter a profession that's on its way down, down, down......that's your right, but as I've said many times before, don't say someone didn't warn you.

Just like stocks, professions go up and professions go down. Look at the M.D.s they are going down. Look at the dentists they are going up. Sometimes you just have to take risks in life and sometimes they pay off...sometimes they don't. A professional education such as optometry in my opinion is one of the riskiest embarkations one can take. Perhaps even more so than starting a business because when you start a business you have something tangible you can sell if things go awry. You can't sell a diploma. I'm surprised there are not more type A risk takers in the profession. In what other profession can you do minor eye surgery, treat eye diseases, prescribe medications and narcotics, own your own practice and get paid by Medicare at the same rate as an M.D. after just four years of post-graduate education? I talked to an old ophthalmology glaucoma specialist yesterday and he actually recommended optometry. He said you can do everything medical as an optometrist and it only takes 4 years. He says he knows many successful optometrists. Guys just get out and talk to some real world people.

Originally Posted by Jason K

... If the problem were purely an oversupply issue, then I'd be more inclined to accept this line of thinking... The entire profession is diseased now and it all stems from the oversupply issue...

Looks like you are contradicting yourself a little bit...
I tend to agree with what you're saying about the changing landscape of the profession. We have this same problem in IT, only it's going 5x as fast. Let's say you're a c++ programmer, that was hot in the late 80's and early 90's, today you're pretty much a relic. Let's say you're a database administrator, in the 90's you were pretty valuable, now many of the dba tasks have been automated and made part of the database software. DBA stock is going down and the number needed has diminished. Add to that the significant outsourcing of our profession and you can see it's a tough place to be.

Yes, things aren't what they were yesterday, but that doesn't mean there isn't a future in the profession. People will have to get creative...

BTW I don't intend in getting into the profession, I've been in IT far too long to do something like that, I'm really here to learn more about Walmart leases. I just find this thread amusing considering how it compares to my own experience in another profession where the downward spiral is much more significant.

Regards,

Mike

Originally Posted by Shnurek

Just like stocks, professions go up and professions go down. Look at the M.D.s they are going down.

Shnurek, as usual, you're making assumptions. You're assuming that the problems MDs face are of the same source as our issues. They're not. You'll see that very soon. Optometry may "go up" at some point, but it won't be during your career.

Originally Posted by Shnurek

Look at the dentists they are going up.

There's a reason for that - their leadership is not destructive, greedy, and incompetent.

Originally Posted by Shnurek

Sometimes you just have to take risks in life and sometimes they pay off...sometimes they don't. A professional education such as optometry in my opinion is one of the riskiest embarkations one can take. Perhaps even more so than starting a business because when you start a business you have something tangible you can sell if things go awry. You can't sell a diploma. I'm surprised there are not more type A risk takers in the profession. In what other profession can you do minor eye surgery, treat eye diseases, prescribe medications and narcotics, own your own practice and get paid by Medicare at the same rate as an M.D. after just four years of post-graduate education? I talked to an old ophthalmology glaucoma specialist yesterday and he actually recommended optometry. He said you can do everything medical as an optometrist and it only takes 4 years. He says he knows many successful optometrists. Guys just get out and talk to some real world people.

What profession are you talking about? The optometry that exists ahead of you is not the one you or your fossilized glaucoma specialist describe. The optometry you're entering will be one involving refractions and CL fittings - and that's about it. Just because you're trained to do something, doesn't mean you'll be doing it.

Originally Posted by Shnurek

Just like stocks, professions go up and professions go down. Look at the M.D.s they are going down. Look at the dentists they are going up. Sometimes you just have to take risks in life and sometimes they pay off...sometimes they don't. A professional education such as optometry in my opinion is one of the riskiest embarkations one can take.

Agreed, main thing being the cost and time invested...

Originally Posted by Shnurek

Perhaps even more so than starting a business because when you start a business you have something tangible you can sell if things go awry.

Disagree, you're assuming the business will have a value at the end of the day, this is not always true.

Originally Posted by Shnurek

You can't sell a diploma.

But the knowledge you gained will always be with you. Hopefully it will be practical in other fields.

Originally Posted by Shnurek

I'm surprised there are not more type A risk takers in the profession. In what other profession can you do minor eye surgery, treat eye diseases, prescribe medications and narcotics, own your own practice and get paid by Medicare at the same rate as an M.D. after just four years of post-graduate education?

This looks like an argument for why Optometry is good. The investment in $$$ and time is lower than other medical professions.

Originally Posted by Shnurek

I talked to an old ophthalmology glaucoma specialist yesterday and he actually recommended optometry. He said you can do everything medical as an optometrist and it only takes 4 years.

I'm confused, you're now saying optometry a good thing here?

Originally Posted by Shnurek

He says he knows many successful optometrists. Guys just get out and talk to some real world people.

Well, you'd hope these boards would be a good representation of what people are doing in the real world. In many cases people just don't get the right exposure to people in the field. You'd hope you could meet some right here...

Mike

Originally Posted by panamamike

Looks like you are contradicting yourself a little bit...

There's no contradiction at all. Here's where your logic is misdirected. You're assuming that optometry is as "plastic" as the IT field. It isn't. The steps to enter into IT and move around within it are smaller, and movement within the field can be much more dynamic. The steps into optometry are relatively large, by comparison, and movement within the field is virtually nonexistent, at least from the standpoint of going from a "worse" position to a "better" one. The fluctuations in the profession of optometry are very long-term and they won't see change back and forth like you see in IT or other professions. We're talking about multiple decades of cycle length, not years. If the profession ever does repair itself, (which I don't see coming ever), it would take a few decades to do so. It's not going to happen.

Optometry is sinking. It has been sinking for a long time, but new students are not shown the reality of what they're buying. The mistake that virtually every pre-opt student makes is that they see highly successful, happy ODs out there, and they think they can duplicate what those docs have. They aren't playing the same game. Those docs entered the profession when it was possible for the majority of grads to do well. Now, they're all getting ready for a career in junk, commercial optometry (if you can call that optometry, it really isn't). They just don't know what they're in for.....yet.

Originally Posted by Jason K

There's no contradiction at all.

Did you look at the quote I referenced from your post? There certainly is a contradiction.

Originally Posted by Jason K

Here's where your logic is misdirected. You're assuming that optometry is as "plastic" as the IT field. It isn't. The steps to enter into IT and move around within it are smaller, and movement within the field can be much more dynamic. The steps into optometry are relatively large, by comparison, and movement within the field is virtually nonexistent, at least from the standpoint of going from a "worse" position to a "better" one.

Yes, I tend to agree with what you're saying. IT is certainly more dynamic, but the steps can vary from somewhat small to very large. The whole point is that you cannot remain rigid and expect to flourish.

Originally Posted by Jason K

The fluctuations in the profession of optometry are very long-term and they won't see change back and forth like you see in IT or other professions.

There's no back and forth, just forth...

Originally Posted by Jason K

We're talking about multiple decades of cycle length, not years. If the profession ever does repair itself, (which I don't see coming ever), it would take a few decades to do so. It's not going to happen.

That's an optimistic view.

Originally Posted by Jason K

Optometry is sinking. It has been sinking for a long time, but new students are not shown the reality of what they're buying. The mistake that virtually every pre-opt student makes is that they see highly successful, happy ODs out there, and they think they can duplicate what those docs have.

Are you saying people that get into other fields look at people who are not successful and aspire to do the same?

Originally Posted by Jason K

They aren't playing the same game. Those docs entered the profession when it was possible for the majority of grads to do well. Now, they're all getting ready for a career in junk, commercial optometry (if you can call that optometry, it really isn't). They just don't know what they're in for.....yet.

I wonder what people thought 20 or more years ago when they got into optometry.
I have to agree that things don't look as lucrative as they did in the past, but that doesn't mean someone who's particularly creative won't come up with a new way to make money in the profession. Worst case scenario, people will always need optometrist, the field will remain viable. There may be some pain due to current oversupply, but that isn't forever, things can change. People with ambition will find other types of work...

Mike

Oh brother! Now we have an IT guy telling us about optometry. Will it ever end?!

I think I will go on a NASA website and discuss how to build rockets.

Originally Posted by Tippytoe

Oh brother! Now we have an IT guy telling us about optometry. Will it ever end?!

I think I will go on a NASA website and discuss how to build rockets.

Yeah, not exactly my area, but I'm not telling you about optometry per se, trying to tell you it's not that bad. You're not the only folks feeling the pain of change.

Mike

Originally Posted by panamamike

Yeah, not exactly my area, but I'm not telling you about optometry per se, trying to tell you it's not that bad. You're not the only folks feeling the pain of change.

Mike

except you probably have 0 debt while most of us will have 160-200k weighing down on us. I'm a single female that could relocate and live in crappy apartments to save money, but what are non-traditional, married with kids, Optometry students going to do? I mean they have a mortgage, wife, kids..etc. so they can't really move and have expensive responsibilities to take care of 0_0

Mike, I'm not even going to bother quoting anything you said because it's totally void of meaning. With all due respect, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. There is no contradiction in what I posted, you simply don't understand it because you know nothing about optometry.

Keep learning about optometry. What you learn will probably steer you in the right direction. To come on a forum and tell practicing ODs that "It's not that bad," is an incredibly ignorant thing to try. You have no basis from which to speak intelligently. It is that bad - the students and pre-opts on this forum just haven't fully realized it yet, but they certainly will.

No one on here is claiming that optometry is alone in its demise. It certainly is not. Pharmacy has been raided and the forces have settled out. Know many private pharmacists these? I sure don't. The same forces that drove pharmacy into an almost completely corporate profession are currently at work in optometry - without opposition. I'm not on here to tell anyone about any other field than the one I know inside and out. I don't really care that attorneys are getting screwed. I'm not an attorney. Someone else needs to warn those people. I'm not a typewriter repairman, and if there were tens of thousands of clueless students signing up for a 180K Typerwriter Repair certification, I'd expect someone else to do the warning, not me. That other professions are suffering is irrelevant. I know this profession and I know what is happening to it. I also know very well that the kids on this site have no clue what they're heading for. They need someone to give them a warning since the people who would profit from their entry into the profession certainly won't, and there's no shortage of those people. Many will ignore the warnings and that's perfectly fine. Based on PMs I get, many students don't ignore the warnings and they greatly appreciate being warned about a very expensive life mistake that can't be undone.

Ok, I think I"m going to head over to a random IT forum and tell people on it how things are.

The rival guy in my town sold his practice to a corporate chain in my area last month and now works for them...Another one goes down....I am now the only private OD in my area for about 20 miles (I am in the suburbs of Philly). In the beginning I was happy when rivals sold out, but now it is getting a little lonely.

Originally Posted by panamamike

I wonder what people thought 20 or more years ago when they got into optometry.
I have to agree that things don't look as lucrative as they did in the past, but that doesn't mean someone who's particularly creative won't come up with a new way to make money in the profession. Worst case scenario, people will always need optometrist, the field will remain viable. There may be some pain due to current oversupply, but that isn't forever, things can change. People with ambition will find other types of work...

Mike

I'll tell you what I thought when I graduated 25 years ago.

I thought I picked a good stable profession where after 30 or so years of self employment I would retire worry free. I'm not complaining about my income, I've done much better financially than any new grads will ever do. But I won't retire in 5 years and I hope this profession doesn't screw itself up so bad that no one wants to buy my practice somewhere down the road.

We now have a profession split by the meaningless issue of board certification and more new grads in commercial practice than ever before. New grads have way too much debt and no longer can get subsidized loans. I think people are now spending way to much money to enter a profession with a questionable future.

Would I encourage my children to study optometry today...absolutely not.

I'm sure someone will dispute everything I've said here, but this is the perspective of a successful private practitioner who wouldn't spend what the average student has to pay today for an optometric education.

Originally Posted by CL Doc

I'll tell you what I thought when I graduated 25 years ago.

I thought I picked a good stable profession where after 30 or so years of self employment I would retire worry free. I'm not complaining about my income, I've done much better financially than any new grads will ever do. But I won't retire in 5 years and I hope this profession doesn't screw itself up so bad that no one wants to buy my practice somewhere down the road.

We now have a profession split by the meaningless issue of board certification and more new grads in commercial practice than ever before. New grads have way too much debt and no longer can get subsidized loans. I think people are now spending way to much money to enter a profession with a questionable future.

Would I encourage my children to study optometry today...absolutely not.

I'm sure someone will dispute everything I've said here, but this is the perspective of a successful private practitioner who wouldn't spend what the average student has to pay today for an optometric education.

Would you encourage your kids to go into medicine? ~200k in loans all stacking up interest while in residency. 7-12 years of post-graduate schooling to get obamacare's stick shoved up their rectums and other practitioners spilling over on their scope of practice shorelines with loan amounts exceeding 300k when becoming an attending?

Originally Posted by Shnurek

Would you encourage your kids to go into medicine? ~200k in loans all stacking up interest while in residency. 7-12 years of post-graduate schooling to get obamacare's stick shoved up their rectums and other practitioners spilling over on their scope of practice shorelines with loan amounts exceeding 300k when becoming an attending?

Father: Son, don't jump off that 300 ft cliff or you'll end up dead. I guarantee it.

Son: But, dad, my friend jumped off a 100 ft cliff, and he survived with only a few broken bones and now he's just fine....other than neck brace he's still wearing and the fact that he makes a whistling sound when he pees. So, if he jumped off the 100 ft cliff, surely I can jump off another, taller cliff without too much trouble. What am I supposed to do, just NOT jump off cliffs? Don't be ridiculous.

Father: Look kid, you're being foolish. There's no law that says you MUST jump off a cliff. Just because other people are dumb enough to jump off cliffs, doesn't mean you need to do it yourself. Get it?

Optometry is a 300 ft cliff - causing certain doom if you jump off it these days. Medicine is another cliff. It's much lower, but you'll still get pretty beat up on the way down. Jumping off any cliff is stupid. Taking the attitude that says "Well, if I'm going to jump off a cliff, I may as well pick the tallest, most dangerous one I can find..." is pretty foolish. That's what you're doing with your question, Shnurek. No one says medicine is a "walk in the park" these days either, but it's a much better option than optometry, in terms of it's stability and breadth of opportunity for grads. And that's saying a lot, considering the state of medicine these days.

Originally Posted by Jason K

Mike, I'm not even going to bother quoting anything you said because it's totally void of meaning. With all due respect, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. There is no contradiction in what I posted, you simply don't understand it because you know nothing about optometry.

Keep learning about optometry. What you learn will probably steer you in the right direction. To come on a forum and tell practicing ODs that "It's not that bad," is an incredibly ignorant thing to try. You have no basis from which to speak intelligently. It is that bad - the students and pre-opts on this forum just haven't fully realized it yet, but they certainly will.

No one on here is claiming that optometry is alone in its demise. It certainly is not. Pharmacy has been raided and the forces have settled out. Know many private pharmacists these? I sure don't. The same forces that drove pharmacy into an almost completely corporate profession are currently at work in optometry - without opposition. I'm not on here to tell anyone about any other field than the one I know inside and out. I don't really care that attorneys are getting screwed. I'm not an attorney. Someone else needs to warn those people. I'm not a typewriter repairman, and if there were tens of thousands of clueless students signing up for a 180K Typerwriter Repair certification, I'd expect someone else to do the warning, not me. That other professions are suffering is irrelevant. I know this profession and I know what is happening to it. I also know very well that the kids on this site have no clue what they're heading for. They need someone to give them a warning since the people who would profit from their entry into the profession certainly won't, and there's no shortage of those people. Many will ignore the warnings and that's perfectly fine. Based on PMs I get, many students don't ignore the warnings and they greatly appreciate being warned about a very expensive life mistake that can't be undone.

Ok, I think I"m going to head over to a random IT forum and tell people on it how things are.

O.K., I'm sorry, I have absolutely no perspective and am just a babbling buffoon. Sorry I tried to share a perspective of the world outside of the myopic Optometrist view.

Mike

So, I'm getting the impression that the only career one should be pursing these days is dentistry. Everything else....you're screwed.

Originally Posted by panamamike

O.K., I'm sorry, I have absolutely no perspective and am just a babbling buffoon. Sorry I tried to share a perspective of the world outside of the myopic Optometrist view.

Mike

Mike,
I'm starting to wonder if you're Shurek since you make the same wild assumptions. Nowhere did I suggest you are a "bumbling buffoon." What I did say is that you have no basis from which to come on here and tell ODs "how it really is." I seem to remember you saying something along the lines of "Oh, it's not really that bad...," did you not? You have no place in making such a statement. Tell us about IT or computer science. This really isn't the forum for it, but people would listen to what you have to say. Trying to speak about optometry, especially when you contradict what others are saying, makes you look a little foolish. But go ahead and get your feathers ruffled if you want, you're still way off base.

Originally Posted by KHE

So, I'm getting the impression that the only career one should be pursing these days is dentistry. Everything else....you're screwed.

Not really sure where this idea came from. It's no secret that I (and many other practitioners) believe dentistry is a much more robust profession compared to optometry. Considering the state of optometry, that's not saying much, however. As I've said before, I'm not here to tell people what profession to pursue. I'm here to tell people that optometry is almost certainly not what they think it is - that's it. People need to find their own way. Just because they're being warned about a particular path being one way, doesn't mean the person handing out the warning needs to provide an alternate path. That's up to the individual. If a student investigates optometry thoroughly and feels a jailed career in commercial optometry is going to be a big bowl of smiles, then come on in...there will be plenty of PT, low-paying, high-volume refracting technician work for you, maybe not in your home town or state....but you'll be able to have people call you "Dr." so it will be totally cool.

Apparently, my father/son example was ineffective so I'll try again:

Police Officer: Hey everyone, don't go down this road, there's a break in the road and people are falling to their deaths....it's a huge bummer.

Citizen: What the hell, dude? I need to get to the other side of the river - get out of my way!

Police Officer: Not my problem, chief. You really should find another way over there - this way is too dangerous. You can go if you want, but don't say I didn't try to stop you.

Citizen: So, am supposed to just NOT go across the river then? Every road could be dangerous....it only looks like a 30 foot break in the bridge...not that bad, really. I could jump that with no problemos.

Police Officer: Look, every road could be dangerous, but I don't know what any other roads look like since I haven't seen them. I'm just telling you that the road I"m standing on will likely kill you if you try to take it across the river. So, I strongly suggest you find another way over there since this way will probably kill you. Go get a map and find another route.