215 good enough?

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Hi everyone,
I got a 215 on step 1 and was hoping to get a residency spot in Anesthesiology in two years. I go an allopathic medical school in PA! Do you guys think I could get into this field?

Originally Posted by pillowface

Hi everyone,
I got a 215 on step 1 and was hoping to get a residency spot in Anesthesiology in two years. I go an allopathic medical school in PA! Do you guys think I could get into this field?

Try searching the anesthesia forums first. Second, look up the nrmp' "charting the outcomes" - they are published every other year and they break down everything.

Further, it's generally about the full app, fit, etc. rarely does one piece sink an applicant unless it's just awfull.

A few of my classmates with similar scores got interviews at some really good programs. Apply broadly, and you'll be in good shape. Look into some of the midwestern/mid-southern programs. They tend to be less competitive despite still being pretty awesome.

You'll probably match somewhere with that score, though below average is a big red flag, just apply very broadly and try to do really well on step 2.

I know people with sub-200 scores who matched in gas, just do well in clerkships.

Originally Posted by IlDestriero

You'll probably match somewhere with that score, though below average is a big red flag, just apply very broadly and try to do really well on step 2.

If 215 is a big red flag, then what is failing? I'm not arguing. I'm just perplexed by the thought that a 215 is a big red flag when half the applicants will likely have scores around there or less.

Originally Posted by Mass Effect

If 215 is a big red flag, then what is failing? I'm not arguing. I'm just perplexed by the thought that a 215 is a big red flag when half the applicants will likely have scores around there or less.

I'm just venturing a guess here, but I imagine a lot of people with below average scores will stick to applying peds/FM/IM, which drives up the number of people applying gas with average or above average scores.

Originally Posted by IlDestriero

You'll probably match somewhere with that score, though below average is a big red flag, just apply very broadly and try to do really well on step 2.

So the majority of people applying have big red flags? I am confused because charting outcomes shows a very favorable chance of matching from an allo school even with a 188.

Basically half of anesthesiologists have below average scores according to the data.

In 2011 over 1000 USMDs applied, less than 50 didn't match.

Average Step 1 was 226 for matched, 203 for unmatched.

So you'll match somewhere.

Originally Posted by nburnett3

I'm just venturing a guess here, but I imagine a lot of people with below average scores will stick to applying peds/FM/IM, which drives up the number of people applying gas with average or above average scores.

The average Step I score for anesthesiology, according to Charting Outcomes for 2011 was 225 with the highest being around 235 and the lowest being around 215.

For IM, the average was 227, with the highest being 240 and the lowest being 210.

For FM, the average was 210, with the highest being 227ish and the lowest being just below 200.

I think the OP has a decent chance. There really isn't that big a difference between IM and anesthesiology score-wise.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

There were definitely people with >235 applying for gas, so you're misreading a table somewhere.


Here's the actual data:

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

OP, according to the data you have a 99.1% of matching with that score. You are fine.

Originally Posted by johnnydrama

There were definitely people with >235 applying for gas, so you're misreading a table somewhere.


Here's the actual data:

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

Oops, you're right. I misread one of the earlier tables they showed. Thanks for the correction!

Originally Posted by Mass Effect

If 215 is a big red flag, then what is failing? I'm not arguing. I'm just perplexed by the thought that a 215 is a big red flag when half the applicants will likely have scores around there or less.

Yes, he's a below average applicant, that is a red flag. As I said, he should match, especially if he does well on step 2. I hope he's involved in the department and is doing some research project as well. If he's a below average applicant, gets luke warm letters, no research and follows up with a below average step 2, and doesn't apply widely to secure many interviews, he might find himself in the 4%. That score won't do him any favors if he's planning to apply for a competitive fellowship down the road either.

Originally Posted by link2swim06

So the majority of people applying have big red flags? I am confused because charting outcomes shows a very favorable chance of matching from an allo school even with a 188.

Basically half of anesthesiologists have below average scores according to the data.

Less than average is relative to the program being applied to. A 230 is above average for psych. Below average for plastics. A 215 is below average for anesthesia

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Originally Posted by link2swim06

OP, according to the data you have a 99.1% of matching with that score. You are fine.

Um no. This is not how statistics works. Nor is Step 1 the only factor in matching. You really can't look at a list and say, well most people who applied matched, because you don't know what kind of self selection and heavy handed advising is happening at the med school level to get those results. For instance if the only people who applied for gas either had above average scores or something else strong going for them (networking, research, top Step 2 score), the person with merely a below average score and little else might actually have very low odds.

That being said, if the OP applies to enough places, has other strong components on his application (research, networking, great evals), and interviews well, they probably can nab something. But we aren't talking about a 99% sure thing.

Originally Posted by Law2Doc

Um no. This is not how statistics works. Nor is Step 1 the only factor in matching. You really can't look at a list and say, well most people who applied matched, because you don't know what kind of self selection and heavy handed advising is happening at the med school level to get those results. For instance if the only people who applied for gas either had above average scores or something else strong going for them (networking, research, top Step 2 score), the person with merely a below average score and little else might actually have very low odds.

That being said, if the OP applies to enough places, has other strong components on his application (research, networking, great evals), and interviews well, they probably can nab something. But we aren't talking about a 99% sure thing.

I don't really think self-selection is very applicable to gas...it follows the nature distribution of step 1 scores pretty well.

Furthermore when you have hundreds of people applying with a particular score and basically all of them match it shows me that the score likely has nothing to do with them matching or not.

Sure the rare person with a 188 who matched ortho probably had some special connections the rest of us can't expect, but when you have nearly the most common score for a specialty it isn't a limiting factor.

And yes that is what charting outcomes shows statistically....the ton of people apply with the OPs score and 99% of them match. I'd argue the 2 people who didn't match probably had a red flag the majority of people dont have or didn't apply to many programs.

Originally Posted by Law2Doc

Um no. This is not how statistics works. Nor is Step 1 the only factor in matching. You really can't look at a list and say, well most people who applied matched, because you don't know what kind of self selection and heavy handed advising is happening at the med school level to get those results. For instance if the only people who applied for gas either had above average scores or something else strong going for them (networking, research, top Step 2 score), the person with merely a below average score and little else might actually have very low odds.

That being said, if the OP applies to enough places, has other strong components on his application (research, networking, great evals), and interviews well, they probably can nab something. But we aren't talking about a 99% sure thing.

Obviously his application is not only step 1 in a vacuum, but gas is not a tough match. 2/3rds of people with step 1 below 200 matched!!! Sure, there are other factors (LORs, GPA, AOA, step 2, research, etc), but he should not have trouble matching with that score. There is heavy selection bias with a lot of fields, eg derm, radonc, plastics, ophtho, etc, but I haven't really heard or that for anesthesia. If anything, it's the opposite direction - people who can't match ortho or don't want to work like gensurg and apply anesthesia - I would think that would increase the numbers.

Originally Posted by FSU2013

If anything, it's the opposite direction - people who can't match ortho or don't want to work like gensurg and apply anesthesia - I would think that would increase the numbers.

Not true. There aren't many people that decide on anesthesia as a fall back for med students. It's a unique field. There are actually a lot of people that matched into other fields (typically surg subspecialties) that switch into anesthesia because they want to get away from theirs. It's to the point that many programs reserve spots each year for out-of-match applicants.

i personally know a foreign med grad who just graduated from med school and he had a 217 and matched into anesthesia this year, in chicago. and no its not cook county. its a decent program.

you're fine

Originally Posted by gasblaster

Not true. There aren't many people that decide on anesthesia as a fall back for med students. It's a unique field. There are actually a lot of people that matched into other fields (typically surg subspecialties) that switch into anesthesia because they want to get away from theirs. It's to the point that many programs reserve spots each year for out-of-match applicants.

Wouldn't anesthesia programs reserving out of match spots mean that anesthesia is a fallback program for people going into more competitive residencies?

Originally Posted by gasblaster

Not true. There aren't many people that decide on anesthesia as a fall back for med students. It's a unique field. There are actually a lot of people that matched into other fields (typically surg subspecialties) that switch into anesthesia because they want to get away from theirs. It's to the point that many programs reserve spots each year for out-of-match applicants.

You know that now the nrmp has the "all-in" policy where spots can no longer be held out of the match?

Originally Posted by Law2Doc

Um no. This is not how statistics works. Nor is Step 1 the only factor in matching. You really can't look at a list and say, well most people who applied matched, because you don't know what kind of self selection and heavy handed advising is happening at the med school level to get those results. For instance if the only people who applied for gas either had above average scores or something else strong going for them (networking, research, top Step 2 score), the person with merely a below average score and little else might actually have very low odds.

That being said, if the OP applies to enough places, has other strong components on his application (research, networking, great evals), and interviews well, they probably can nab something. But we aren't talking about a 99% sure thing.

This is the very accurate assessment. Step 1 is obviously an important factor, but in anesthesia, compared to many other specialties, other parts of the application are very important. I remember reading back at one point in one of the NRMP charts that honors in basic science courses and honors in clinical clerkships were just as, if not more, important than the Step 1 score.

Originally Posted by johnnydrama

Wouldn't anesthesia programs reserving out of match spots mean that anesthesia is a fallback program for people going into more competitive residencies?

I meant switching after matching and completing 1+ years in another residency specialty.

Originally Posted by pillowface

Hi everyone,
I got a 215 on step 1 and was hoping to get a residency spot in Anesthesiology in two years. I go an allopathic medical school in PA! Do you guys think I could get into this field?

Just get to know the Anesthesia guys at your medical school. If you can show as a medical student you are a hard worker and serious, they will take you. Apply broadly, you'll be fine.

Originally Posted by cincincyreds

Just get to know the Anesthesia guys at your medical school. If you can show as a medical student you are a hard worker and serious, they will take you. Apply broadly, you'll be fine.

Good advice if your school has a decent gas program. I guess it's nice to know you'll go somewhere, but I would've strongly considered switching specialties if my only option had been my home program.

Originally Posted by MilkmanAl

A few of my classmates with similar scores got interviews at some really good programs. Apply broadly, and you'll be in good shape. Look into some of the midwestern/mid-southern programs. They tend to be less competitive despite still being pretty awesome.

What is a good program?

Is there a list or a thread with a ranking or a general list of quality programs? Just curious.

I applied mostly in the Midwest, but Iowa and Kentucky seem to have good reps pretty much anywhere you go. I also liked Kansas (where I am now, and my top pick), Tulane, and UIC a lot. I'm told MUSC, Cornell, Mayo, Wash U, and UVA are great, as well. I'm speaking mostly of a balance of training, lifestyle, and colleagues, by the way. What makes a good program will vary considerably based on what you're looking for, obviously. For instance, KU was my top choice because it has good training, cool residents and faculty, and is in my hometown, whereas Iowa was probably the best program I interviewed at in terms of only training, with the possible exception of Kentucky, but has a mediocre location.

Originally Posted by MichaelPhelps

What is a good program?

Is there a list or a thread with a ranking or a general list of quality programs? Just curious.

Check the anesthesiology forum.

where is this forum? i cant find it lol

Go to Physician/Resident forums, then Anesthesiology

look at rush

Originally Posted by Law2Doc

Um no. This is not how statistics works. Nor is Step 1 the only factor in matching. You really can't look at a list and say, well most people who applied matched, because you don't know what kind of self selection and heavy handed advising is happening at the med school level to get those results. For instance if the only people who applied for gas either had above average scores or something else strong going for them (networking, research, top Step 2 score), the person with merely a below average score and little else might actually have very low odds.

That being said, if the OP applies to enough places, has other strong components on his application (research, networking, great evals), and interviews well, they probably can nab something. But we aren't talking about a 99% sure thing.

Based on the 2011 charting outcomes, students that matched in gas were average (or below) across the board in all categories, not just step 1. You can only explain away so many of the statistics as self-selection. In this scenario, you would have to make the case that even though all of the measured objective criteria were average or below, people going into gas have some other magical elements in their application that aren't present in other specialties.

Also, I agree that step 1 is not the only factor (obviously), but it is the most important objective criteria that was looked at. The prior charting outcomes of the match showed that a high step 1 score was the most predictive independent factor in matching. It was even more predictive than being MD/PhD.

Just wondering: if i was interested in anesthesia, would they look for research done in the field or can it be ANY research?

Originally Posted by dendrites

Just wondering: if i was interested in anesthesia, would they look for research done in the field or can it be ANY research?

Any research is good, but research in anesthesia is preferable.