The Caribbean Option

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Oh! How can I forget? Podiatry. I don't know the specifics but they're relatively easy to get into, give you a good living, and people still call you doctor. The downside is that podiatry schools have high attrition rates (probably because they take such unqualified applicants...). It's kinda like the Caribbean except you're not **** out of luck once you graduate. If you want to pursue it, then make sure you have what it takes to do well or you will be in major debt.

Originally Posted by cosmicguardian

True I have f*ck*d up, but should I let the past dictate my whole life??? I still have a whole year or more to try to push it up to close as 3.0 as possible. After that I could look into taking some classes at CC or whatnot and pursuing a different field, maybe pharm, maybe hospital administration, maybe something else. That's why I came here to ask for help

I don't think you necessarily get it... yes. Your past will always dictate your future in these matters. This isn't some over hyped lifetime original movie about overcoming odds. A 3.0 is a minimum cutoff for most places but still very unlikely to gain acceptance to any graduate program. The advice above is your only bet for about anything- retake the crap out of classes. One you've done that and it becomes "your past" then you can think about applying. Look up averages. If you are more than .3 GPA outside of the listed average your chances are slim

Originally Posted by cosmicguardian

True I have f*ck*d up, but should I let the past dictate my whole life??? I still have a whole year or more to try to push it up to close as 3.0 as possible. After that I could look into taking some classes at CC or whatnot and pursuing a different field, maybe pharm, maybe hospital administration, maybe something else. That's why I came here to ask for help

We can't really give you any useful career advice (aside from med), you should discuss that with friends/family/counselors/etc.

We can tell you this, yes it'll be an uphill battle to get into med school (MD especially, and DO as well), but it's not completely impossible is what we're trying to say. Take advantage of grade replacement programs that DO schools utilize, and after maybe 30+ credits of As, you should be getting back on the radar for DO admissions. All the while, of course, pursuing extra-curricular activities.

Dude has got to be trolling.

Nobody is this thick.

It doesn't matter whether you want to let the past dictate your life or not. The thing is that all professional fields are EXTREMELY competitive due to many factors such as a bad economy, larger applicant pool, fewer jobs available, funding going out the door...

You need to be more competitive than ever at this day and age.

If you REALLY, and I mean really want to be a physician then the sober truth is you will have to retake a lot of classes and work hard into extra-curriculars like others have pointed out.

If you want to go into Pharm then you will also have to do the same thing. Pharmacy school requires a doctorate now days and pharmacists also make a good living. As such you must assume that getting into pharm school is going to be competitive.

Grab you life by the balls and do what you need to do, stop thinking about last rate options and work hard to get into the career you want like the rest of us here!

.

Originally Posted by cosmicguardian

Ok if not a doctor then, then what other routes do I have, somebody please help me !!!

You can retake come classes shoot for podiatry school. They get paid pretty well and they still do surgery. Not as prestigious but why do you wanna be a doctor?

Originally Posted by cosmicguardian

True I have f*ck*d up, but should I let the past dictate my whole life??? I still have a whole year or more to try to push it up to close as 3.0 as possible. After that I could look into taking some classes at CC or whatnot and pursuing a different field, maybe pharm, maybe hospital administration, maybe something else. That's why I came here to ask for help

I was in your position, and ended up graduating with a 2.82. I will agree you're probably not going straight to medical school. Don't worry, most people don't anyway, the median gap between undergraduate graduation and starting medical school is up to 2 years. I managed to get in just a year late, but I think 2-3 is more like the average in your situation. The biggest variable that is missing here, of course, is your MCAT. If its significantly above average (doesn't need to be a 40 or anything, just high) its not out of question that you could matriculate into medical school a single year behind your peers. If you hit the average 2-3 years might be more in line with reality. If you strugle with grades AND standardized tests, and can't even get close to the average, then while its still not impossible for you to get in the opportunity costs of doing so start getting pretty high relative to just finding a job.

The trick is to work smart to fix your situation. There are a lot of options that won't help, either as ways to get into medical school or as alternatives to medical school: the caribbean, non-SMP masters degrees, non-professional doctoral degrees, bad SMP programs, low end law schools, chiropractic schools, taking difficult upper level science credits, and the list goes on. You can waste a decade prusing the wrong option if you're not careful, often trapping yourself under mounds of nondischargable debt in the process. A lot of education these days is basically a scam to defraud students of federally backed loans, and you don't want to be the one trapped in debt because you didn't do your research first. Read through the post bac forum is a good start. Start with the low gpa theread, here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/show...8#post13018908. When you get through that move on to the stickies describing individual programs that can help you. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

Originally Posted by Stumpyman

We can't really give you any useful career advice (aside from med), you should discuss that with friends/family/counselors/etc.
.

This website can give tons of useful advice. His family and friends on the other hand will almost definitely be useless, and 10:1 his counselor will be too. IMHO

Originally Posted by OCDOCDOCD

A 2.7 GPA is too low for any graduate program. Grad school (both masters and PhD), dental school, optometry school, pharm school, law school, and medical school (both DO and MD) are well out of your league.

There are definitely lower-tier law schools that would take him with a half-way decent LSAT (think Whittier: http://www.law.whittier.edu/index/ap...udent-profile/).

Originally Posted by thesauce

There are definitely lower-tier law schools that would take him with a half-way decent LSAT (think Whittier: http://www.law.whittier.edu/index/ap...udent-profile/).

He probably has a significantly better chance of finding employment after a Caribbean medical school (slim) than after a low tier law school (none). Google law school scam blog.

A job, even a minimum wage job, is better than either if those options.

I am just going to say what everyone else is thinking.

You have no business being a physician, or anyone that is responsible for the lives and well-being of others in the scientific sense.

Your inability to handle a bachelor level course load says one thing only; that you won't be able to handle graduate level science at the pace needed to become a medical doctor.

Seek destiny elsewhere. You don't have the head or the drive for it.

Originally Posted by Perrotfish

He probably has a significantly better chance of finding employment after a Caribbean medical school (slim) than after a low tier law school (none). Google law school scam blog.

A job, even a minimum wage job, is better than either if those options.

Absolutely true, Whittier has only a 10% rate of law-based employment after graduation. But that wasn't what was being discussed - just addressing the myth that law school is out of reach.

Originally Posted by RomanTaylor

I am just going to say what everyone else is thinking.

You have no business being a physician, or anyone that is responsible for the lives and well-being of others in the scientific sense.

Your inability to handle a bachelor level course load says one thing only; that you won't be able to handle graduate level science at the pace needed to become a medical doctor.

Seek destiny elsewhere. You don't have the head or the drive for it.

1). That's not what everyone else was thinking

2). The work that goes into a bachelors is not a constant. His major could have been harder than yours.

3). The number of challenges an undergraduate faces is not a constant. He could have been facing personal miseries you do not know.

4). A persons ability yo manage his time and effort should not be the same at age 18 and 22. The fact that you were born with a mental age of 45 does not mean everyone is or wants to be old when they're young.

5). You are an ass. You should work on that before you hit wards.

Originally Posted by RomanTaylor

I am just going to say what everyone else is thinking.

You have no business being a physician, or anyone that is responsible for the lives and well-being of others in the scientific sense.

Your inability to handle a bachelor level course load says one thing only; that you won't be able to handle graduate level science at the pace needed to become a medical doctor.

Seek destiny elsewhere. You don't have the head or the drive for it.

that is a bit harsh. The reality is that someone who has maintained this level of performance is not very likely to step up and do what is necessary to achieve the goal. So he will very likely get a post-college job to support himself while trying to get in somewhere and eventually settle into that job long term or perhaps join a masters program somewhere. Parrotfish is an example of an exception but far too often it is the exceptions that prove the rules rather than really demonstrate their weaknesses.

But the OP was asking what it would take. Invoking Burnett's law doesn't really address the question.

Originally Posted by perrotfish

1). That's nit what everyone else was thinking

2). The work that goes into a bachelors is not a constant. His major could have been harder than yours.

3). The number of challenges an undergraduate faces is not a constant. He could have been facing personal miseries you do not know.

4). A persons ability yo manage his time and effort should not be the same at age 18 and 22

5). You are an as$hole. You should work on that before you hit wards.

+1.

Originally Posted by Perrotfish

1). That's not what everyone else was thinking

2). The work that goes into a bachelors is not a constant. His major could have been harder than yours.

3). The number of challenges an undergraduate faces is not a constant. He could have been facing personal miseries you do not know.

4). A persons ability yo manage his time and effort should not be the same at age 18 and 22. The fact that you were born with a mental age of 45 does not mean everyone is or wants to be old when they're young.

5). You are an ass. You should work on that before you hit wards.

Perhaps. More than likely not.

Originally Posted by RomanTaylor

Perhaps. More than likely not.

given the time of year it is not unreasonable to assume you haven't even applied to a medical school yet, let alone understand the rigors of the curriculum.
On what basis do you make your prior claims?

Because I know that grades are a reflection of intelligence x effort. And I know that just because you have achieved what I have not yet, it does not mean that I have no knowledge. I have been around medicine longer and more intensely than you assume...but this is not about me.

I think the true asses are the ones here giving such encouragement to someone that is not even focused enough to even WANT to be a doctor. Here you have someone, floundering, having no set idea what he even wants. You don't know the motivations, you don't know if he has the raw ingredients to even BE a competent doctor, yet you feed him all this horse**** about "don't give up, you can do it...even though if you pulled ALL the stops, your chances are less than 10% that you will achieve what you are after."

Pure will alone will not get you through the doors, let alone to the other side. I have worked around crappy "doctors" that should have NEVER been certified for years...and here you guys go encouraging another one.

If you don't have what it takes, and if the risk FAR outweighs the potential benefit (all of these "fixes" you guys are suggesting cost money and time...increases debt, and decreases lifelong earning potential for a longshot), then, again, I say "seek destiny elsewhere." If you have thousands of applicants with GPAs and ECs FAR more impressive than what he is presenting not getting into med school year after year after year, then why are you telling a 2.7gpa guy in his senior year that he even has a chance?!!? If he can't even get into pharmacy school with this...why are you telling him he can become a physician?!?!

Stop playing with this guy. Truth hurts, and if he came here wanting opinions, he got one. Next stop for him: academic advisers, family, and some real soul-searching.

Originally Posted by RomanTaylor

I am just going to say what everyone else is thinking.

You have no business being a physician, or anyone that is responsible for the lives and well-being of others in the scientific sense.

Your inability to handle a bachelor level course load says one thing only; that you won't be able to handle graduate level science at the pace needed to become a medical doctor.

Seek destiny elsewhere. You don't have the head or the drive for it.

TBH if I weren't premed I'd happily give no F**ks about my gpa, party my ass off, and graduate with at max a 3.0. So really it's not all that surprising that the OP probably not even considering graduate education until recently ended with a lowish gpa. I mean honestly, Cs get degrees.

Originally Posted by RomanTaylor

Because I know that grades are a reflection of intelligence x effort. And I know that just because you have achieved what I have not yet, it does not mean that I have no knowledge. I have been around medicine longer and more intensely than you assume...but this is not about me. (1)

I think the true asses are the ones here giving such encouragement to someone that is not even focused enough to even WANT to be a doctor. Here you have someone, floundering, having no set idea what he even wants. You don't know the motivations, you don't know if he has the raw ingredients to even BE a competent doctor, yet you feed him all this horse**** about "don't give up, you can do it...even though if you pulled ALL the stops, your chances are less than 10% that you will achieve what you are after." (2)

Pure will alone will not get you through the doors, let alone to the other side. I have worked around crappy "doctors" that should have NEVER been certified for years...and here you guys go encouraging another one. (3)

If you don't have what it takes, and if the risk FAR outweighs the potential benefit (all of these "fixes" you guys are suggesting cost money and time...increases debt, and decreases lifelong earning potential for a longshot), then, again, I say "seek destiny elsewhere." If you have thousands of applicants with GPAs and ECs FAR more impressive than what he is presenting not getting into med school year after year after year, then why are you telling a 2.7gpa guy in his senior year that he even has a chance?!!? If he can't even get into pharmacy school with this...why are you telling him he can become a physician?!?! (4)

Stop playing with this guy. Truth hurts, and if he came here wanting opinions, he got one. Next stop for him: academic advisers, family, and some real soul-searching. (5)

lets work on your reading comprehension a little bit here.

1) "being around medicine" is amorphous and largely meaningless. Being around medicine does not convey an understanding of medical curriculum. You probably have learned more about the rigors of med school by lurking the allo section than you have from "being around medicine"

2) I'm sorry - where have I fed the guy anything? Or anyone in this thread, for that matter. It is not for you or I to determine if he can be competent. That is what Adcoms do (and with a >90% graduatation and USMLE pass rate across the board, Id say the do so pretty well). Your post answered a question that was not asked. Simple as that. Furthermore, answering his question is not the same as encouraging him to pursue it. IMO the advice given was not very encouraging. I agree that he is floundering; anyone who is throwing any random professional school up there likely fits that bill. I still see no reason to take a cheapshot at the guy. As much as he may or may not have business "being responsible for lives" or whatever you said, you have equally no business assessing that ability. Understand, this wasnt a "you should mind your own" statement, it was a "you lack the ability" statement - irony

3) again, I fail to see how detailing the uphill battle this guy will have is the same as encouraging him to continue. Per your own nifty equation (gpa=IQ*effort) we still havent established that this guy is incapable. There are likelihoods in one direction vs another, but stating so is pure speculation. Therefore we detailed the road ahead IF he so chooses to pursue it. Not the same as encouragement.

4) Agreed. Except see #3 about us telling him to keep on going with it.

5) at least we have clearly identified where your misunderstanding lies. Maybe I missed it, but I have yet to see a single "good luck you can do it!" post and I certainly havent said anything to that effect.

So lets be less butthurt that you got called out for a d-bag post. Your sentiments have about a99% chance of happening. But the post itself served literally no purpose. Ignore the rest of your posts, because the backlash was that you have literally zero ability to judge this posters "business being a physician, or anyone that is responsible for the lives and well-being of others in the scientific sense" from where you sit.

Originally Posted by serenade

TBH if I weren't premed I'd happily give no F**ks about my gpa, party my ass off, and graduate with at max a 3.0. So really it's not all that surprising that the OP probably not even considering graduate education until recently ended with a lowish gpa. I mean honestly, Cs get degrees.

I have several friends from UG who only needed to pass to get their degree and go get a job. At times I envied them. "Yes! D+!" was never anything I got to say

Originally Posted by RomanTaylor

Because I know that grades are a reflection of intelligence x effort. And I know that just because you have achieved what I have not yet, it does not mean that I have no knowledge. I have been around medicine longer and more intensely than you assume...but this is not about me.

I think the true asses are the ones here giving such encouragement to someone that is not even focused enough to even WANT to be a doctor. Here you have someone, floundering, having no set idea what he even wants. You don't know the motivations, you don't know if he has the raw ingredients to even BE a competent doctor, yet you feed him all this horse**** about "don't give up, you can do it...even though if you pulled ALL the stops, your chances are less than 10% that you will achieve what you are after."

Pure will alone will not get you through the doors, let alone to the other side. I have worked around crappy "doctors" that should have NEVER been certified for years...and here you guys go encouraging another one.

If you don't have what it takes, and if the risk FAR outweighs the potential benefit (all of these "fixes" you guys are suggesting cost money and time...increases debt, and decreases lifelong earning potential for a longshot), then, again, I say "seek destiny elsewhere." If you have thousands of applicants with GPAs and ECs FAR more impressive than what he is presenting not getting into med school year after year after year, then why are you telling a 2.7gpa guy in his senior year that he even has a chance?!!? If he can't even get into pharmacy school with this...why are you telling him he can become a physician?!?!

Stop playing with this guy. Truth hurts, and if he came here wanting opinions, he got one. Next stop for him: academic advisers, family, and some real soul-searching.

You think you are sufficient to judge which doctors shouldn't be certified? Doctors that went through 4 years of undergrad--4 years of med school--passed their USMLE, got into residency, and successfully completed it?

and lol @ grades being a reflection of intelligence x effort. I have engineering friends who got 3.0s who are far smarter than my liberal arts friends who had 4.0.

GPA has way more factors than you give credit to.

Pharm school isn't a walk in the park by any means...but quick question is Caribbean residency placement really 10% even at the big 4?? i thought it was closer to 40% at St. George's...

Originally Posted by Perrotfish

1). That's not what everyone else was thinking

2). The work that goes into a bachelors is not a constant. His major could have been harder than yours.

3). The number of challenges an undergraduate faces is not a constant. He could have been facing personal miseries you do not know.

4). A persons ability yo manage his time and effort should not be the same at age 18 and 22. The fact that you were born with a mental age of 45 does not mean everyone is or wants to be old when they're young.

5). You are an ass. You should work on that before you hit wards.

+1 Thanks for posting what everyone else was thinking.

Originally Posted by RomanTaylor

I am just going to say what everyone else is thinking.

You have no business being a physician, or anyone that is responsible for the lives and well-being of others in the scientific sense.

Your inability to handle a bachelor level course load says one thing only; that you won't be able to handle graduate level science at the pace needed to become a medical doctor.

Seek destiny elsewhere. You don't have the head or the drive for it.

lol wut? I graduated with a 2.45. Grew up a little, gained some perspective....crushed a masters with a 3.78, did well during M1/M2, did well on comlex and usmle, and havent gotten anything less than an honors during my 3rd year so far. So yeah. You are about 0% correct broseph.

OP is immature and lost as hell but not any of the things you listed.

I worked at the product end of all of that fancy schooling, gents.

I stand next to them, answer to them, and work directly under them. Been doing it for years.

I have seen the work of great doctors, and I have seen the work of doctors that, after 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of medical school, USMLE and COMLEX, internships, and residencies, have no business being physicians. I am not as new to this as you think, and I call 'em like I see 'em.

I have a saying I live by; "the proof is in the pudding." No matter how hard you worked on your pudding, or how many years you put into it, if the pudding tasted like crap...it's crappy pudding.

Now that we got that out of the way.

I might be a bit cruel in my assessment. As everyone else here, to more or a lesser degree, we are all making assumptions about his abilities or even drive to achieve what he might or might not want to do. It may have been the years of military that causes me to have low tolerance for lack of focus and abysmal production, but that's just who I am. I don't blow sunshine.

And by the way...I've hit the wards for years. My demeanor has never been assessed as anything but an asset

Originally Posted by RomanTaylor

Because I know that grades are a reflection of intelligence x effort. And I know that just because you have achieved what I have not yet, it does not mean that I have no knowledge. I have been around medicine longer and more intensely than you assume...but this is not about me.

I think the true asses are the ones here giving such encouragement to someone that is not even focused enough to even WANT to be a doctor. Here you have someone, floundering, having no set idea what he even wants. You don't know the motivations, you don't know if he has the raw ingredients to even BE a competent doctor, yet you feed him all this horse**** about "don't give up, you can do it...even though if you pulled ALL the stops, your chances are less than 10% that you will achieve what you are after."

Pure will alone will not get you through the doors, let alone to the other side. I have worked around crappy "doctors" that should have NEVER been certified for years...and here you guys go encouraging another one.

If you don't have what it takes, and if the risk FAR outweighs the potential benefit (all of these "fixes" you guys are suggesting cost money and time...increases debt, and decreases lifelong earning potential for a longshot), then, again, I say "seek destiny elsewhere." If you have thousands of applicants with GPAs and ECs FAR more impressive than what he is presenting not getting into med school year after year after year, then why are you telling a 2.7gpa guy in his senior year that he even has a chance?!!? If he can't even get into pharmacy school with this...why are you telling him he can become a physician?!?!

Stop playing with this guy. Truth hurts, and if he came here wanting opinions, he got one. Next stop for him: academic advisers, family, and some real soul-searching.

God you're pretentious. There are plenty of people who turn their lives around. Maybe he will fail, maybe he will succeed. It is not out place to tell him either, but rather to tell him what he needs to do to get where he wants to be.

Nobody mentioned PA school? Or optometry? There are lots of fields you can be in if you don't have the grade for med school. The important thing is to find something you are interested in doing rather than choosing the path of least resistance (which I think OP is trying to do).


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Originally Posted by RomanTaylor

I worked at the product end of all of that fancy schooling, gents.

I stand next to them, answer to them, and work directly under them. Been doing it for years.

I have seen the work of great doctors, and I have seen the work of doctors that, after 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of medical school, USMLE and COMLEX, internships, and residencies, have no business being physicians. I am not as new to this as you think, and I call 'em like I see 'em.

I have a saying I live by; "the proof is in the pudding." No matter how hard you worked on your pudding, or how many years you put into it, if the pudding tasted like crap...it's crappy pudding.

Now that we got that out of the way.

I might be a bit cruel in my assessment. As everyone else here, to more or a lesser degree, we are all making assumptions about his abilities or even drive to achieve what he might or might not want to do. It may have been the years of military that causes me to have low tolerance for lack of focus and abysmal production, but that's just who I am. I don't blow sunshine.

And by the way...I've hit the wards for years. My demeanor has never been assessed as anything but an asset

Arrogant, holier-than-thou, judgemental, superiority complex...yeah you are a joy to work with, I am sure

Originally Posted by RomanTaylor

I worked at the product end of all of that fancy schooling, gents.

I stand next to them, answer to them, and work directly under them. Been doing it for years.

I have seen the work of great doctors, and I have seen the work of doctors that, after 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of medical school, USMLE and COMLEX, internships, and residencies, have no business being physicians. I am not as new to this as you think, and I call 'em like I see 'em.

I have a saying I live by; "the proof is in the pudding." No matter how hard you worked on your pudding, or how many years you put into it, if the pudding tasted like crap...it's crappy pudding.

Now that we got that out of the way.

I might be a bit cruel in my assessment. As everyone else here, to more or a lesser degree, we are all making assumptions about his abilities or even drive to achieve what he might or might not want to do. It may have been the years of military that causes me to have low tolerance for lack of focus and abysmal production, but that's just who I am. I don't blow sunshine.

And by the way...I've hit the wards for years. My demeanor has never been assessed as anything but an asset

can you define this, please? I am pretty sure you are saying that you were either a nurse or a lab tech. Which would make this all completely hilarious any such work would give you precisely zero insight into the education system as well as the GPAs of the docs you worked with. Short of being an ADCOM with access to match data you have no leg to stand on. Your vague (and probable intentional avoidance of giving your actual title) description aside, how do you know the good docs didnt have crappy GPAs and the crappy docs had good GPAs? You don't. The fun part is that it is likely with the older generation of doctors as competition has risen dramatically over the last 20-30 years.

You still have not demonstrated how this gives an understanding of rigor of medical education and also fails to address your prior poor reading comprehension.

Originally Posted by tn4596

Nobody mentioned PA school? Or optometry? There are lots of fields you can be in if you don't have the grade for med school. The important thing is to find something you are interested in doing rather than choosing the path of least resistance (which I think OP is trying to do).


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PA = gpa close to medical school + requires 1000 paid hours of medical experience.
Optometry = gpa around 3.4ish.

Originally Posted by theseeker4

Arrogant, holier-than-thou, judgemental, superiority complex...yeah you are a joy to work with, I am sure

This is the exact statement we are all chewing his ass for
you have no idea what he is like to work with. Stick to the favorable bets - the dude called someone out for something he also couldn't possibly have an understanding of

Originally Posted by thesauce

There are definitely lower-tier law schools that would take him with a half-way decent LSAT (think Whittier: http://www.law.whittier.edu/index/ap...udent-profile/).

Right, let me clarify my statement:

There are no professional schools with remotely decent post-graduation employment rates that will take a person with a GPA less than 3.0.

Sure, bottom tier law schools might take him, but his employment prospects will be terrible. With law schools the way it works is if you want a good career in law you go to a top 20; if you want a crappy career in law you go to second tier. If you want to waste $100,000+ you go to third tier trash.

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

This is the exact statement we are all chewing his ass for
you have no idea what he is like to work with. Stick to the favorable bets - the dude called someone out for something he also couldn't possibly have an understanding of

If you say so

Except for the part where his arrogance, judgemental attitude and douche baggery is plainly evident and actively defended by him, as opposed to the many possibilities that could underlie the OPs past performance. But yep, the two statements are exactly alike

Originally Posted by theseeker4

If you say so

Except for the part where his arrogance, judgemental attitude and douche baggery is plainly evident and actively defended by him, as opposed to the many possibilities that could underlie the OPs past performance. But yep, the two statements are exactly alike

The point was in extending something inappropriately. You're actively defending this now which is red-lining my irony meter I'm only giving you a hard time, but honestly it is a little funny to make such statements when the primary error made by this guy was to assume there was some causative link between two unrelated things

Yea, I don't blow my own horn unless I have to, and I don't have to.

He wanted opinions...I am not getting into a "I am smarter and more knowledgeable because I got in and your still in the running" fight. I offered my opinion, he can take it or leave it.

I am not accountable to you, sir.

And if you are THAT curious about me, check out my post history...first one, I put in an introduction.

Originally Posted by RomanTaylor

Yea, I don't blow my own horn unless I have to, and I don't have to.

He wanted opinions...I am not getting into a "I am smarter and more knowledgeable because I got in and your still in the running" fight. I offered my opinion, he can take it or leave it.

I am not accountable to you, sir.

And if you are THAT curious about me, check out my post history...first one, I put in an introduction.

again with the reading comp issues. Good luck with VR my man (seeker, ok now I am guilty of it, but it was fun)

The point, sir, was to establish if you in any way at all are capable of defending the opinions you state. I'm sure you have tons of opinions. That doesn't mean they are informed. I was giving you the opportunity to address that. It certainly is your right not to. It is a little amusing that you think I somehow expect you to feel compelled to do so by any mechanism other than identifying the weaknesses within your own posts. But hey, thats why we have been discussion reading comp in the first place, isnt it

Originally Posted by RomanTaylor

Yea, I don't blow my own horn unless I have to, and I don't have to.

He wanted opinions...I am not getting into a "I am smarter and more knowledgeable because I got in and your still in the running" fight. I offered my opinion, he can take it or leave it.

I am not accountable to you, sir.

And if you are THAT curious about me, check out my post history...first one, I put in an introduction.

I don't think anyone is saying you gave bad advice.. Just pointing out that you come across as a douche, and stating that you spent years in the military Is kinda pointless here

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

The point was in extending something inappropriately. You're actively defending this now which is red-lining my irony meter I'm only giving you a hard time, but honestly it is a little funny to make such statements when the primary error made by this guy was to assume there was some causative link between two unrelated things

I think everyone here can understand and recognize the difference between the comment I made, and an absolute statement that the poster in question couldn't possibly be someone that anyone, anywhere could possibly enjoy working with. I am certainly not claiming personal knowledge of that individual's work, or what it is like to actually work with him or her. I think it should be pretty clear my comment was nothing more than a jab at the obvious attitude portrayed on here, not a claim of absolute knowledge of that poster's actual personality at work. This guy made a direct claim in absolute terms about the OP; my comment was not that at all. Feel free to reset your irony meter. And don't worry, I can take you giving me a hard time

Originally Posted by RomanTaylor

Yea, I don't blow my own horn unless I have to, and I don't have to.

He wanted opinions...I am not getting into a "I am smarter and more knowledgeable because I got in and your still in the running" fight. I offered my opinion, he can take it or leave it.

I am not accountable to you, sir.

And if you are THAT curious about me, check out my post history...first one, I put in an introduction.

Originally Posted by RomanTaylor

Greetings!

Well, as you can tell by the title, my name is Roman. Pleased to meet each and every one of you. I have been lurking on SDN for years now, accessing this wealth of information while in Florida to North Carolina to Afghanistan and back again. Though the doctor I work with HATES the site, I find it a informative and entertaining.

Some background on me:

1) I am a FMF Navy Corpsman (a combat medic for the Marine Corps) and have been for the last 4 years. Before that, I was a general duty Corpsman working at a Naval hospital for 2 years. I've spent a year working in Labor and Delivery (where I popped my patient cherry, sort of speak), and another year working in the ICU and the ER. After going "green," I've mostly work in Aid Stations, both here and deployed, until I made E5...now I am just an admin paper-pusher. Promotion has it's benefits...that isn't one of them.

*ahem* "so to speak"

well this answers a few questions. Being a combat medic (thank you for your service, btw, sincerely) gives you literally no ability to assess the education, educational process, commitment, or requirements for medical school. As I suspected.

2) I am almost done with my enlistment and will be starting school this Spring in Gainesville. Though I am crazy excited for it and probably overly prepared, I am still nervous as hell.

3) I will be majoring in Biology. I wanted to minor in psychology, but of COURSE the Univ of FL does not offer it.

4) I am a 32 y/o married male with one 2 y/o child.

5) I spent many many MANY hours researching, planning, scheming, and preparing for college life and the rigors of the journey to come. I have now come to a point where there is nothing to do but to do it. What this means for you guys is that I have an answer for just about everything, lol.

6) My wife thinks I am a know-it-all idiot. Typical spouse.

*takes breath* no.... no... too easy

7) I am very interested in Surgery. And no, it's not because of Grey's Anatomy, the money, or the ability to stick out my little pinkie at dinner parties and say, "I am a surgeon." It's because I think that it's the best fit for me, given my background. I also feel I have the temperament for it, because life has turned me into a perfectionist robot that appreciates the art-form of it. Sure, the hours suck (if your residency actually adheres to the 80 hour workweek rule [I hope not]), and you come about as close as any specialty does to the edge of death, but out of all the specialties that I have seen, read about, and asked providers about...it is the one that appeals to me the most. If not that, then possibly Family Medicine (I know I know, it's like a whiplashing 180).

8) I am currently maintaining a blog that I am using for chronicling my journey to what will HOPEFULLY be my medical school acceptance and beyond, and also to write what I think I know about medicine so I can look back at it and laugh at myself. My ego doesn't like the "you don't know what you don't know" bit, and I like making it look like a fool. Perhaps in the future I will share it...but for right now, it's my own personal embarrassment.


I look forward to my "lurker's coming out," and spending some character entries with you. Have a good one in each of your individual pursuits!!

well, now we know

Originally Posted by theseeker4

I think everyone here can understand and recognize the difference between the comment I made, and an absolute statement that the poster in question couldn't possibly be someone that anyone, anywhere could possibly enjoy working with. I am certainly not claiming personal knowledge of that individual's work, or what it is like to actually work with him or her. I think it should be pretty clear my comment was nothing more than a jab at the obvious attitude portrayed on here, not a claim of absolute knowledge of that poster's actual personality at work. This guy made a direct claim in absolute terms about the OP; my comment was not that at all. Feel free to reset your irony meter. And don't worry, I can take you giving me a hard time

SDN needs the beer mug "cheers" emoticon I am used to from other sites.

Originally Posted by RomanTaylor

I worked at the product end of all of that fancy schooling, gents.

I stand next to them, answer to them, and work directly under them. Been doing it for years.

I have seen the work of great doctors, and I have seen the work of doctors that, after 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of medical school, USMLE and COMLEX, internships, and residencies, have no business being physicians. I am not as new to this as you think, and I call 'em like I see 'em.

I have a saying I live by; "the proof is in the pudding." No matter how hard you worked on your pudding, or how many years you put into it, if the pudding tasted like crap...it's crappy pudding.

Now that we got that out of the way.

I might be a bit cruel in my assessment. As everyone else here, to more or a lesser degree, we are all making assumptions about his abilities or even drive to achieve what he might or might not want to do. It may have been the years of military that causes me to have low tolerance for lack of focus and abysmal production, but that's just who I am. I don't blow sunshine.

And by the way...I've hit the wards for years. My demeanor has never been assessed as anything but an asset

If/when you get into actual medical school, you will learn that at least half of medical school is basically a course in giving advice to people with problems. Obviously its focused on medical problems, but its actually pretty good practice on giving advice to anyone with any problem. The system is pretty simple at a glance, though it takes a lot of practice to do right:

1) Someone presents with a chief complaint. For example the OP has a severe case of acute premeditis with a subtheraputic GPA.

2) You come up with a differential, what could cause this poor GPA?: Stupidity? Yes. Lazieness? Also yes. Tertiary responsibilities? Yes. Personal tragedy? Previously undiagnosed ADHD? Substance abuse? Engineering major? Working full time? Just recently became premed (and therefore suddenly had an inadequate GPA). All yes. There are a lot of possibilities

3) Then you take a history to narrow that differential: What was your GPA trend? Do you have an MCAT? How many credits? Seen a psychiatrist? What is your school/major? How committed are you to the idea of premedicine? Criminal record? URM? You need to know the situation to give accurate advice.

4) Finally, you give the peson their options, and the odds that those options will be sucessful, in a value neutral way. If something is extermely unlikely to work (healing crystals, the carribbean) you say so. If something is likely to work only if certain conditions are met (abx IF you have a bacterial infection, grade replacement IF you are willing to go to a DO school) you say that. If something is risky but could yield a big gain if it works (whipple procedure for pancreatic carcinoma, SMP for a terrible GPA) then you say that. Then you let the person with the problem decide what they want to do.

What you did here is basically did what I get to see every MS1 do on their first day of preclinical shadowing: hear a complaint, skip the history and differential, jump to a diagnosis (sometimes bizzare), and then give a therapy (almost always incorrect).

"Doctor I'm short of breath". "That must be pneumonia, you need vancomycin"

"My GPA is a 2.7 and I want to go to medical school!" "You must be an idiot, you should give up on medicine and be a plumber".

Originally Posted by Perrotfish

If/when you get into actual medical school, you will learn that at least half of medical school is basically a course in giving advice to people with problems. Obviously its focused on medical problems, but its actually pretty good practice on giving advice to anyone with any problem. The system is pretty simple at a glance, though it takes a lot of practice to do right:

1) Someone presents with a chief complaint. For example the OP has a severe case of acute premeditis with a subtheraputic GPA.

2) You come up with a differential, what could cause this poor GPA?: Stupidity? Yes. Lazieness? Also yes. Tertiary responsibilities? Yes. Personal tragedy? Previously undiagnosed ADHD? Substance abuse? Engineering major? Working full time? Just recently became premed (and therefore suddenly had an inadequate GPA). All yes. There are a lot of possibilities

3) Then you take a history: What was your GPA trend? Do you have an MCAT? How many credits? Seen a psychiatrist? What is your school/major? How committed are you to the idea of premedicine? Criminal record? URM? You need to know the situation to give accurate advice.

4) Finally, you give the peson their options, and the odds that those options will be sucessful, in a value neutral way. If something is extermely unlikely to work (healing crystals, the carribbean) you say so. If something is likely to work only if certain conditions are met (abx IF you have a bacterial infection, grade replacement IF you are willing to go to a DO school) you say that. If something is risky but could yield a big gain if it works (whipple procedure for pancreatic carcinoma, SMP for a terrible GPA) then you say that. Then you let the person with the problem decide what they want to do.

What you did here is basically did what I get to see every MS1 do on their first day of preclinical shadowing: hear a complaint, skip the history and differential, jump to a diagnosis (sometimes bizzare), and then give a therapy (almost always incorrect).

"Doctor I'm short of breath". "That must be pneumonia, you need vancomycin"

"My GPA is a 2.7 and I want to go to medical school!" "You must be an idiot, you should give up on medicine and be a plumber".

Well received. But let's face it...plumbers make GREAT money .

And what is the deal with pancreaticoduodenectomies? I seen and heard that one procedure mentioned more times from more sources than any other procedure ever!

Gotta see one of those things.

But to put your mind at ease...I always give my due diligence when working a problem...unless I don't think it demands it.

Addendum: So I have absolutely NO knowledge of anything involved with the educational requirements for medical school...why, because I didn't list it, SpecterGT? Come now...let's not be simple.

Originally Posted by RomanTaylor

Addendum: So I have absolutely NO knowledge of anything involved with the educational requirements for medical school...why, because I didn't list it, SpecterGT? Come now...let's not be simple.

it actually is simple. Being a military medic does not convey the knowledge necessary to determine if someone else's GPA deems them worthy of entry to medical school or not. You have, however, used this history more than once now to indicate the opposite.
see? Simple

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

it actually is simple. Being a military medic does not convey the knowledge necessary to determine if someone else's GPA deems them worthy of entry to medical school or not. You have, however, used this history more than once now to indicate the opposite.
see? Simple

Corpsman. Navy has corpsmen. When you call him a medic you're say he's Army. He may be an ass but he doesn't deserve that kind of name calling

1) I am a FMF Navy Corpsman (a combat medic for the Marine Corps)

I don't make any claim against being as ignorant of military terms as this guy is of medical education requirements (see what I did there?)

Not really.

Lets say you work in an office as the admin guy and lead "doc" for a group of medical officers from various specialties. Say you spend, at a minimum, 60 hours a week with them and over 100 hours a week on deployment.

Say that you spent years just...peppering them relentlessly with questions about their experiences from day one till infinity.

And let's assume that I am somewhat adapt at doing my own research OUTSIDE of SDN.

And, for a little flavor, let's assume that I am somewhat intelligent.

Why am I completely unqualified to answer questions, let alone form opinions, on questions related to the ones that I have learned? I think I am more than informed, sir.

I also think that you are being an academic snob. But that is to expected from "our type of people."

Originally Posted by Perrotfish

Corpsman. Navy has corpsmen. When you call him a medic you're say he's Army. He may be an ass but he doesn't deserve that kind of name calling

Thanks for that. You have no idea how that warmed my heart It's hard to explain the difference to anyone other than Sailors and Marines.

Let's just keep in mind that the current controversy revolves around these two statements

Originally Posted by RomanTaylor

You have no business being a physician, or anyone that is responsible for the lives and well-being of others in the scientific sense.
.

Originally Posted by RomanTaylor

I worked at the product end of all of that fancy schooling, gents.

That you can judge this guy's ability based on his GPA and that your experience above lends said ability.

Originally Posted by RomanTaylor

Not really.

Lets say you work in an office as the admin guy and lead "doc" for a group of medical officers from various specialties. Say you spend, at a minimum, 60 hours a week with them and over 100 hours a week on deployment.

You still have no idea at all about their UG GPA. Since your initial statement established the line of thought that the OPs GPA necessarily reflected his ability to handle lives, the above reasoning is faulty.

What you seem to be unable to wrap your head around are the illogical logical leaps you are using in your reasoning.

Say that you spent years just...peppering them relentlessly with questions about their experiences from day one till infinity.

See the previous note. Even if you were to ask them about their entry credentials, such information really doesn't support your earlier statement regarding the OP (the one about having no business doing ______, the rest of what you said was fine, btw)

And let's assume that I am somewhat adapt at doing my own research OUTSIDE of SDN.

And, for a little flavor, let's assume that I am somewhat intelligent.

I side with your wife until I see evidence to the contrary

Why am I completely unqualified to answer questions, let alone form opinions, on questions related to the ones that I have learned? I think I am more than informed, sir.

You are not informed. you spoke on the rigors of medical school - which you have not experienced and do not have an understanding of. The only issue is you are unaware how ignorant you are on the topic and if you ever make it in to medical school you will realize this very quickly. Either way, the pre-med chastizing the other pre-med because he doesn't think he has what it takes.... the irony is that you have also not demonstrated an iota of "what it takes" at this point in time either. So for all of your "more than informed"-ness......

I also think that you are being an academic snob. But that is to expected from "our type of people."

This is probably the most accurate and reliable thing you have said to date. When in doubt, or when you have no true evidence behind an opinion, it is always best to lead with "I think". Nobody can hold "I think" statements against you


aside from whatever training you received as a corpsman, I hope you are able to realize that your defense of your position is nearly entirely akin to saying that a patient is qualified to judge whether a doctor is capable of handling the rigors of medical school because they too worked with the end-product of that education. Its logically absurd. The major complaint with your initial post was that it reeks of "the pot calling the kettle black"

Oh boy.

I don't think that just asking about "entry credentials" would fill years worth of interrogation. Sure, it was a substantial amount of it...but I got more out of it than "what did you do to get in."

And to your other points...I am not the one that spoke in absolutes here. I know what I know, and I know what I don't know (to an extent), yet you seem to KNOW that I am a clueless know-it-all.

Look, congrats on getting a finger on the brass ring. I hope to be where you are right now some day, because, unlike the OP, I am busting my ASS for it. But I am saying that you don't have to be IN the room to know what in the room. Just because I don't fly airplanes for a living doesn't mean I know nothing about flying airplanes. One can take a didactic approach to learning something. Otherwise, NO ONE knows anything about medicine unless you are a doctor of medicine, and I think we ALL know that is not the case.

And as fun as this tit-for-tat is, I am standing by my statement. If you are flopping around, grasping for ANY income generating post-secondary you MIGHT have a shot at, have a C+ average, and so clueless as to the medical industry that you won't take a D.O. after your name (for what?! Because M.D. looks better?) even though you don't even qualify for it...you have no business being a physician.

I may be wrong and I am comfortable with that. When I say I have seen some crappy physicians in action...I have seen some crappy physicians in action. I don't care if you are protecting your own...I have seen them dole out some foul pudding. I know the pudding was bad...because I have a nose.

I even have one physician that I work for that hates patients. Literally hates patients and hates the practice of medicine. Yea. It's real. I see him everyday...even on weekends. And I have to witness his hatred in his work, his patients, and his work-ups.

I worked for one attending in Labor and Delivery that knicked an artery and caused arterial spray (most of which hit the ceiling...every damn time) during Cesareans about 90% of the time. I mean, it was like clock-work. If he was cutting, you had a good shot at watching a resident pass out from all the blood or feeling up liters of suction buckets.

But hey...the guy was an attending. He paid his dues...he should continue the blood splatter show, right?