Sexism in medical school.

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Nevermind. <3 I'd appreciate if this post was deleted or left to die.

Originally Posted by Osakhomen

Hey everyone,

Just wanted to get some opinions on this issue. As a woman, I feel like the guys at my school don't really 'trust' my knowledge. Like in anatomy lab, I'm actually pretty good at identifying things, like for the most part, where things are in the body just makes sense to me. So I always try to tell my other tank members what a structure is, and they hardly seem to believe me(other than another girl at my tank). Granted, a few times I am wrong, but in those instances I say, "I THINK this MAY be [structure]". I never say anything is 100% something, unless I know with out a doubt. Also, I don't know where everything is, and I don't claim to... If I don't think I know where something is I won't just guess, I'll ask my tank mates, a teacher or look in the atlas. I believe what my tank mates are telling me when they find a structure. Anyway, it just seems that the guys kind of brush off what I am saying, and ask a teacher/look at an atlas. Even the other day, I was trying to explain what something was to someone because they flipped two terms, and when a guy told them, they finally believed me. It's very frustrating. Another girl said she feels the same way too in her lab group. I don't want to believe it's sexism (or even possibly racial prejudice... I'm a minority), but sometimes it feels that way.
Anyway, what do you all think? Maybe it's just the nature of a medical student to be skeptical, and I'm reading too much to into it.

Sounds like you are coming across as not very confident...by saying "may be."

This has nothing to do with gender. People aren't going to risk their grade on "possibly correct information."

The highest grade in my anatomy class was by a girl...she was confident and people listened to her.

It's only been about a month and a half into MS for me, but it seems to be a lot like high school.

There are different niches, different types of people who treat others in different ways. There are some really nice guys in my class, and others who are more of your typical "bro before hoes" frat guys. I haven't seen anything boarding sexism quite yet, the smartest person in our anatomy group is a girl who basically is always several lectures ahead of everyone and straightens us all out.

You may have just been unlucky and grouped with a few bad apples.

(But of course, I'm a guy and hence my perspective may not be entirely objective).

Sounds like you are coming across as not very confident...by saying "may be."

This has nothing to do with gender. People aren't going to risk their grade on "possibly correct information."

The highest grade in my anatomy class was by a girl...she was confident and people listened to her.

This is very good insight, and perhaps the definitive cause.

I know that I would respond very skeptically if my group member was "I think maybe..." Because I know that when I phrase something in that manner, I'm not actually sure and am try to ascertain more information from participation on part of my group. We usually end up bringing over a TA when that happens, haha.

No, they just don't trust you. That's why PBL was **** at my school. I don't trust anything that comes out of my classmates, because half the time they just spout garbage in an attempt to look intelligent. Eventually, you figure out who you can trust to not be blowing smoke up your ass...but you're only a month in.

Originally Posted by Osakhomen

Hey everyone,

Just wanted to get some opinions on this issue. As a woman, I feel like the guys at my school don't really 'trust' my knowledge. Like in anatomy lab, I'm actually pretty good at identifying things, like for the most part, where things are in the body just makes sense to me. So I always try to tell my other tank members what a structure is, and they hardly seem to believe me(other than another girl at my tank). Granted, a few times I am wrong, but in those instances I say, "I THINK this MAY be [structure]". I never say anything is 100% something, unless I know with out a doubt. Also, I don't know where everything is, and I don't claim to... If I don't think I know where something is I won't just guess, I'll ask my tank mates, a teacher or look in the atlas. I believe what my tank mates are telling me when they find a structure. Anyway, it just seems that the guys kind of brush off what I am saying, and ask a teacher/look at an atlas. Even the other day, I was trying to explain what something was to someone because they flipped two terms, and when a guy told them, they finally believed me. It's very frustrating. Another girl said she feels the same way too in her lab group. I don't want to believe it's sexism (or even possibly racial prejudice... I'm a minority), but sometimes it feels that way.
Anyway, what do you all think? Maybe it's just the nature of a medical student to be skeptical, and I'm reading too much to into it.

"They don't believe me...I'm a girl...maybe they don't believe me because I'm a girl!!"

Really? What you think they should trust you instead of looking at an actual atlas or flagging down a TA? You sure the guy didn't just give them a better explanation of what you were trying to tell them?

Sounds like someone is being overly sensitive.

Yeah it's probably because you're a girl and a minority.

Originally Posted by calvnandhobbs68

"They don't believe me...I'm a girl...maybe they don't believe me because I'm a girl!!"

Really? What you think they should trust you instead of looking at an actual atlas or flagging down a TA? You sure the guy didn't just give them a better explanation of what you were trying to tell them?

Sounds like someone is being overly sensitive.

I'm not being sensitive about it. I'm not hurt if they don't believe me. At the end of the day, I know my stuff, and if they don't want to believe me, more their problem than mine. I actually LIKE all of my tank mates and we get along great. It's just something I noticed and wanted to discuss.
Just because I observe something doesn't make me overly sensitive.

Originally Posted by link2swim06

Sounds like you are coming across as not very confident...by saying "may be."

This has nothing to do with gender. People aren't going to risk their grade on "possibly correct information."

The highest grade in my anatomy class was by a girl...she was confident and people listened to her.

You're right. I get that people don't want to risk grades on unsure information, but I guess I was wondering if the reason they thought it wasn't correct was because of my gender. But you make a good point, my approach isn't 100% confident and the type of people in medical school usually are not ones to take risk when it comes to grades.

Originally Posted by Osakhomen

I'm not being sensitive about it. I'm not hurt if they don't believe me. At the end of the day, I know my stuff, and if they don't want to believe me, more their problem than mine. I actually LIKE all of my tank mates and we get along great. It's just something I noticed and wanted to discuss.
Just because I observe something doesn't make me overly sensitive.

Actually, I can't think of anything that would better demonstrate that you are over sensitive than coming on here, describing what you did, and jumping to "are they just sexist or racist???" as the best logical explanation. You might want to examine why exactly that this was the conclusion you jumped to.

As far as believing another guy when they asked for confirmation of something you identified, I would bet they would have believed whoever was able to confidently explain why you were right, regardless of their gender or race. You will have a much more enjoyable time if you get the chip off your shoulder.

this has never been an issue for me and i don't think i've witnessed it at my med school. well, i can think of ONE guy who does it, but everyone things he's a meanie anyway. sure, there are some guys that are sexist and can be the occasional dbags, but there are also some girls who are feminist. if the conversation of gender equality in medicine comes up (which is pretty rare), it elicits some debate, but most men are accepting of their female colleagues. there have been way too many sdn threads that end up discussing this topic and i hope this doesn't turn in to one.

one solution to fix your problem: study more, never be wrong.

But, in all seriousness, you are def reading into it too much and your time spent caring about it is a waste. some people just learn by looking things up themselves. some people are just jerks. you'll find out who you can successfully study around, and then just chalk it up to differences, not sexism. As the year goes on, people will definitely learn who knows their sh!t and whose word to take with a grain of salt. Until then, you're all new m1s who know very little (no offense), and it wouldn't hurt for you to second guess people a little more, too --- especially in lab where people can think they know... but have no idea.

Originally Posted by Wordead

No, they just don't trust you. That's why PBL was **** at my school. I don't trust anything that comes out of my classmates, because half the time they just spout garbage in an attempt to look intelligent. Eventually, you figure out who you can trust to not be blowing smoke up your ass...but you're only a month in.

truth.

This: http://faculty.som.yale.edu/keithche...rkingPaper.pdf

Layman version: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/247995.php

Just my two cents, but maybe you need to start acting confident in your answers. I would not refer my patients to a surgeon who says "I THINK I can cut this, but I'm just not sure". You'll get eaten alive in residency doing that. So learn now while you're young.

It's hard to say they're sexist or racist just from that. At this stage, people are still trying to feel each other out. However, What they think of you really doesn't matter because they aren't grading you. If you tell them what a structure is and they don't believe you, move on. They can waste time trying to figure it out themselves or get it wrong on the practical.

Something to work on is confidence in your responses. Have confidence in your own knowledge base and intelligence. When you're getting pimped in 3rd year that confidence will so that you know your stuff and you're not just guessing.

Originally Posted by racknstack

Just my two cents, but maybe you need to start acting confident in your answers. I would not refer my patients to a surgeon who says "I THINK I can cut this, but I'm just not sure". You'll get eaten alive in residency doing that. So learn now while you're young.

I would not...patients are different from your colleagues. You say something blatantly incorrect in front of another physician, you lose all credibility, especially when said with 100% confidence.

Originally Posted by Wordead

No, they just don't trust you. That's why PBL was **** at my school. I don't trust anything that comes out of my classmates, because half the time they just spout garbage in an attempt to look intelligent. Eventually, you figure out who you can trust to not be blowing smoke up your ass...but you're only a month in.

Lol true. Lol also at "sexism/racism"" charges. Lots victims on SdN allo these days...

Originally Posted by cbrons

Lol true. Lol also at "sexism/racism"" charges. Lots victims on SdN allo these days...

I swear people blow things out of proportion here. The OP is not acting like a victim. All they are doing is asking some questions.

Originally Posted by urbanclassic

I swear people blow things out of proportion here. The OP is not acting like a victim. All they are doing is asking some questions.

Jumping to the "they dont like me bc im black/azn/whatever and a woman " as an explantion for why people think ur incompentent is what i call blowing things out of proportions, but you are entitled to your opinion my friend.

Originally Posted by cbrons

Jumping to the "they dont like me bc im black/azn/whatever and a woman " as an explantion for why people think ur incompentent is what i call blowing things out of proportions, but you are entitled to your opinion my friend.

Did you even read her post? Because she didn't ever say that. She thought it might be a possibility and asked what other people thought to get others opinions and then AGREED that it was her being not confident in her identification, rather sex or race. I don't see how she is playing the victim at all.

Originally Posted by urbanclassic

Did you even read her post? Because she didn't ever say that. She thought it might be a possibility and asked what other people thought to get others opinions and then AGREED that it was her being not confident in her identification, rather sex or race. I don't see how she is playing the victim at all.

It's the subtext....the first thing that pops into her mind as an explanation is her gender. Everyone else thinks, where the hell did you even think of that? Never mind that there are more women than men in medical school now, and women tend to be more educated.

Same concept behind the race card, basically.

Originally Posted by Wordead

It's the subtext....the first thing that pops into her mind as an explanation is her gender. Everyone else thinks, where the hell did you even think of that? Never mind that there are more women than men in medical school now, and women tend to be more educated.

Same concept behind the race card, basically.

How do you know it's the first thing that pops in her mind? JW.

Originally Posted by urbanclassic

How do you know it's the first thing that pops in her mind? JW.

My school has a very good behavioral sciences section.

We had girls like this in anatomy as well. I always tried to tell her to be more confident in her answers, but she always started with, "I think this is x, this should be Y, and I believe x innervates Y"

The guy who I can thank for getting me through anatomy, was simply more confident, and thus seemed like he knew more. I would say both of these people were wrong the same percentage of the time, but we still trusted the guy with more confidence, even though we would correct him if one of us in the study group knew better.

If you sound unconfident, expect your class mates to double check your answers. I was always horribly non-confident in my answers, and I had people looking up what I was saying. I'm also a guy, and it didn't bother me for people to double-check me.

Yeah okay. That's what I thought.

Personally, I will always double check what someone says. It doesn't even have anything to do with trust. I learn it better when I do it myself so it is only natural to go back over something even if the token gunner gave me the "low down" 20 seconds earlier.

Originally Posted by Wordead

It's the subtext....the first thing that pops into her mind as an explanation is her gender. Everyone else thinks, where the hell did you even think of that? Never mind that there are more women than men in medical school now, and women tend to be more educated.

Same concept behind the race card, basically.

yep.

On a related note ... this surprising and disappointing article in the NY Times yesterday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/25/sc...tudy-says.html

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

On a related note ... this surprising and disappointing article in the NY Times yesterday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/25/sc...tudy-says.html

I'm not surprised. I don't think people purposely think women in science are lesser than men.. I think it's just still ingrained in our minds. Still unfortunate though.

this thread is hilarious


Thank god I'm a white male, or else no one would ever listen to me.

Originally Posted by Ser Demetrius

this thread is hilarious


Thank god I'm a white male, or else no one would ever listen to me.

On a serious sociological question: When you are a group dominated by coloreds, do you ever feel like no one pays attention to you?

Originally Posted by DarkmanX

On a serious sociological question: When you are a group dominated by coloreds, do you ever feel like no one pays attention to you?

I can tell you are serious by your use of the word "colored"

I never really got the whole "colored" thing. White is the presence of all colors and black is the absence of all colors.

Originally Posted by Shnurek

I never really got the whole "colored" thing. White is the presence of all colors and black is the absence of all colors.

Depends what you're talking about. White objects is the absence of wavelength specific absorption so therefore the reflection of all color wavelengths. The object itself has nothing that we can describe as color. Black objects absorb all colors and therefore reflect none.

But the point is that white light is all colors. A white sheet of paper isn't... (try it with crayons you will get black or some kind of gray brown)

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

Depends what you're talking about. White objects is the absence of wavelength specific absorption so therefore the reflection of all color wavelengths. The object itself has nothing that we can describe as color. Black objects absorb all colors and therefore reflect none.

But the point is that white light is all colors. A white sheet of paper isn't... (try it with crayons you will get black or some kind of gray brown)

A white sheet of paper reflects all colors that are perceivable by the human eye in equal amounts and with high luminosity.

And there is no such thing as a black that absorbs all colors and reflects none. The closest we got was 99.9% absorption. http://www.abc.net.au/science/articl...16/2139711.htm

Dude I know how colors work and I didn't really get what you were talking about. We are the ones that take 2 years of physics of light aka optics lol I know most of you guys are Type-A and will argue/correct anything.

Also, colors are just an association our brains give to certain wavelengths of light and their corresponding responsivity spectra in our cone cells.

Originally Posted by Shnurek

A white sheet of paper reflects all colors that are perceivable by the human eye in equal amounts and with high luminosity.

And there is no such thing as a black that absorbs all colors and reflects none. The closest we got was 99.9% absorption. http://www.abc.net.au/science/articl...16/2139711.htm

Dude I know how colors work and I didn't really get what you were talking about. We are the ones that take 2 years of physics of light aka optics lol I know most of you guys are Type-A and will argue/correct anything.

Also, colors are just an association our brains give to certain wavelengths of light and their corresponding responsivity spectra in our cone cells.

didnt i JUST say that white objects reflect all light? yes... yes i did

You may have taken 2 years of optics, but the subject we are talking about now is also easily mastered with an intro physics course and a cursory knowledge of coloring books. Just because someone knows the name of every politician on capital hill doesn't mean that this person is better equipped to point out the president

Your 99.9% technicality has literally nothing to do with what we were talking about. I was only talking in a broad sense to address your first confusion about "colored" and white being the combination of all colors. This only applies to light. Try it with inks some time (a decidedly NON-opto subject) - the point is, you cannot ADD colors to an object (i.e. approaching the presence of all colors) and expect white, rather you can only increase the reflective nature of something towards specific colors to approach white. These are fundamentally different. Your further delving into the cone cells and the brain is equally silly. Nobody here wants to get so absurdly metaphysical. Sure, what you are saying is technically correct, but I really hope you werent being serious with this post here.....

basically the point was: don't call me type-A within such a nitpicky post unless you really want to do this, and if you were truly confused about the term "colored" as applied to races based on the transmitted light definition of white and black, then my response was absolutely reasonable. Don't pull out your opto card on a subject that is thoroughly covered in middle school.

no broski. Just letting you know that I find the rationale wanting in both your post and response

Originally Posted by Shnurek

I never really got the whole "colored" thing. White is the presence of all colors and black is the absence of all colors.

lol this is one of your bigger reaches I've seen...who'd have known you could find some way to tell everyone you're an optometry student again in a thread about racism. Your attempts to bring up some way to remind everyone you're in optometry school continue to amaze me.

Originally Posted by calvnandhobbs68

lol this is one of your bigger reaches I've seen...who'd have known you could find some way to tell everyone you're an optometry student again in a thread about racism. Your attempts to bring up some way to remind everyone you're in optometry school continue to amaze me.

Thanks

Originally Posted by Shnurek

A white sheet of paper reflects all colors that are perceivable by the human eye in equal amounts and with high luminosity.

And there is no such thing as a black that absorbs all colors and reflects none. The closest we got was 99.9% absorption. http://www.abc.net.au/science/articl...16/2139711.htm

Dude I know how colors work and I didn't really get what you were talking about. We are the ones that take 2 years of physics of light aka optics lol I know most of you guys are Type-A and will argue/correct anything.

Also, colors are just an association our brains give to certain wavelengths of light and their corresponding responsivity spectra in our cone cells.

Thank god we have you to keep this thread on topic instead of having some bizarre rant about what you learned in optometry school.

Originally Posted by maddoc

my phone is retarded and sometimes decides to quote random crap from threads I have never been to instead of quoting kpcrew like I wanted it to.......
Sincerely,
Specter

If they spent any real time on that particular subject I think there is a problem in that system.... more than likely he decided to just arbitrarily connect "stuff you can see" with some perception of clout on the subject.

lol

It's a good thing all sexism and all racism is gone. How silly of the OP to think that things like that could actually still exist in the modern medical world....

I mean but for real, who are you people? I can only assume the responses have been by all white guys. Is it necessarily sexism? no not necessarily. Could it be? OMG you'd be insane to think that it might NOT be. But to the OP, i have been in your situation. You can't assume that it is because it will drive you crazy, so just keep on doing what you're doing. Know your stuff and if they don't want to listen then that's on them.

Medicine is still an old boy's network but eventually and hopefully it will not be. Just keep pushing through till then.

There is most certainly sexism in medicine. But the battlefront is less one sided than is being portrayed here. Been a solitary dude working as a non-physician on a pediatric or OB ward lately. Ok so it's a war historically and still predominantly being won by men, but it's not black and white and backlashes and guerilla controlled hot spots exist evey where. The same as it does with race.

Sexism exists, it's wrong. But I've seen and had to deal with some dirty players on the other side too, both sex and race-wise.

But I suspect the Yale study still portrays the predominant problem.

I've seen some interesting research suggesting that women, with perhaps greater verbal and listening skills, are just flat better doctors.

In which case, sexism, might be considered a necessary means.

Originally Posted by jessiemsy

It's a good thing all sexism and all racism is gone. How silly of the OP to think that things like that could actually still exist in the modern medical world....

I mean but for real, who are you people? I can only assume the responses have been by all white guys. Is it necessarily sexism? no not necessarily. Could it be? OMG you'd be insane to think that it might NOT be. But to the OP, i have been in your situation. You can't assume that it is because it will drive you crazy, so just keep on doing what you're doing. Know your stuff and if they don't want to listen then that's on them.

Medicine is still an old boy's network but eventually and hopefully it will not be. Just keep pushing through till then.

I'm Hispanic bro.

Originally Posted by jessiemsy

It's a good thing all sexism and all racism is gone. How silly of the OP to think that things like that could actually still exist in the modern medical world....

I mean but for real, who are you people? I can only assume the responses have been by all white guys. Is it necessarily sexism? no not necessarily. Could it be? OMG you'd be insane to think that it might NOT be. But to the OP, i have been in your situation. You can't assume that it is because it will drive you crazy, so just keep on doing what you're doing. Know your stuff and if they don't want to listen then that's on them.

Medicine is still an old boy's network but eventually and hopefully it will not be. Just keep pushing through till then.

For you to assume all of the responses on here that you perceive to be closed minded must come from "white guys" is rather....closed minded, no?

Originally Posted by bmjr

For you to assume all of the responses on here that you perceive to be closed minded must come from "white guys" is rather....closed minded, no?

Originally Posted by bmjr

For you to assume all of the responses on here that you perceive to be closed minded must come from "white guys" is rather....closed minded, no?

is your name supposed to stand for Birdman Jr.?