Wait another year for MD or sludge through DO bias?

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Sorry to spam up the place - I posted in the OB forum, but not sure if this belongs here.

I'm from PA/NJ area and kind of want to stick around.. but I didn't get into any MD schools so far (all north eastern DO) and reading these MD vs. DO threads is starting to freak me the F out.. For what its worth, I'm interested in OB/gyn. I know I'm totally premature in asking this, but what programs/hospitals should i NOT even consider elective rotations at because the chance of a DO getting residency is still stacked against them even after a brief stint in- house...hell, getting residency period statistically seems immensely difficult.. Looking at the current resident lists for lots of the programs I'm interested in NO DOs. Boo...anyway, should I forget competitive places like penn Hosp, Drexel, Jeff, (and anything in MA/CT/RI) as a DO? I've tried contacting their residency coordinators/offices and no one has the time to talk with me regarding these issues. Should I warm up to the idea of moving to the midwest?......It's seems silly to wait another year for MD. but SDN is making me poop my pants...

OB shouldn't be hard at all to get into as a DO. No one can tell you what your chances are if you aren't even in school. Plus all residency programs will be ACGME accredited in the next 3-4 years, so there's that. Maybe do some more research before flipping out.

If the letters behind your name are worth a year's lost wages as a practicing OB/GYN, have at it. I know plenty of people that chose to go to the Caribbean just so they can receive an MD degree (and then match as an IMG) instead of going to a well-established DO school (and receive a better education for less money). You'll have to be the one to make that call.

Originally Posted by fluoropHore

hell, getting residency period statistically seems immensely difficult..

ahaha what?

Originally Posted by Fox800

OB shouldn't be hard at all to get into as a DO. No one can tell you what your chances are if you aren't even in school. Plus all residency programs will be ACGME accredited in the next 3-4 years, so there's that. Maybe do some more research before flipping out.

If the letters behind your name are worth a year's lost wages as a practicing OB/GYN, have at it. I know plenty of people that chose to go to the Caribbean just so they can receive an MD degree (and then match as an IMG) instead of going to a well-established DO school (and receive a better education for less money). You'll have to be the one to make that call.

That's funny because there were FMGs on these lists and no DOs. So uh, maybe?

Originally Posted by fluoropHore

That's funny because there were FMGs on these lists and no DOs. So uh, maybe?

If you're convinced that it's impossible to match an ACGME OB program as a DO then there's no helping you. Maybe if you make a 250 on your USMLE you can get an interview to a family medicine program...if you do enough research and know someone.

Enjoy your year off.

Originally Posted by Fox800

Plus all residency programs will be ACGME accredited in the next 3-4 years, so there's that. Maybe do some more research before flipping out.

l.

I'm not flipping out, and my reaction is a direct reaction of my research on numerous SDN threads. There IS that, but what will that do in the very near future? Once again, yes I've read those threads. Consensus is ,it does nothing to reduce DO bias.

Originally Posted by Fox800

If you're convinced that it's impossible to match an ACGME OB program as a DO then there's no helping you. Maybe if you make a 250 on your USMLE you can get an interview to a family medicine program...if you do enough research and know someone.

Enjoy your year off.

My question wasnt about matching generally, it was more specific. Geographically bound to NJ/PA...and a little "fun" thrown in about MA/CT/RI.

Originally Posted by fluoropHore

I'm not flipping out, and my reaction is a direct reaction of my research on numerous SDN threads. There IS that, but what will that do in the very near future? Once again, yes I've read those threads. Consensus is ,it does nothing to reduce DO bias.

-You're not in medical school yet. This means you have no grades, board scores, etc. No one can tell you what your chances are of matching into what you want.
-OB isn't that hard to match in the grand scheme of things.
-There are 243 listed ACGME OB/GYN programs and 29 AOA programs. In 2015-16 they will be combined (all ACGME).

Look, I'm not saying I don't want DO, I want OB ( I think?), and after SDN;s back and forth on the subject, and finding corroborating "evidence" that I find very few to no DOs in progs in areas I'm interested in, I just got cold feet... Wanted input on OB specifically in my region. Of course anyone can look this up and claim "No DOs" but i've also personally heard people say they refuse to look at DO apps. Q: In your opinion(s), is it an uphill battle if I chose to stay in this region?

Originally Posted by Fox800

-You're not in medical school yet. This means you have no grades, board scores, etc. No one can tell you what your chances are of matching into what you want.
-OB isn't that hard to match in the grand scheme of things.
-There are 243 listed ACGME OB/GYN programs and 29 AOA programs. In 2015-16 they will be combined (all ACGME).

Ok, thank you.

Originally Posted by fluoropHore

I'm not flipping out, and my reaction is a direct reaction of my research on numerous SDN threads. There IS that, but what will that do in the very near future? Once again, yes I've read those threads. Consensus is ,it does nothing to reduce DO bias.

I think this is your problem.

If it makes you feel better I can tell you what you seem to want to hear: Personally I'm so glad I'm in an MD school; it's so totally worth it to wait another year and go MD over DO. If you go to a DO school you're basically a step below a chiropractor and looked down on by everyone in the medical field. Your parents will disown you because you threw your life away, and your girlfriend will dump you by sending you a video of herself banging your best friend. You'll never get a residency, especially an OB/GYN one in the northeast, and will eventually be reduced to selling your body on the street for pocket change (because no one is going to pay you a whole dollar with that DO behind your name) all the while lamenting the day you ever applied to a DO program.

This is the very first (and only) school I searched for, FYI: http://www.bmc.org/obgyn/education/residency-alumni.htm

Originally Posted by ChE04

I think this is your problem.

If it makes you feel better I can tell you what you seem to want to hear: Personally I'm so glad I'm in an MD school; it's so totally worth it to wait another year and go MD over DO. If you go to a DO school you'll be basically a step below chiropractors and looked down on by everyone in the medical profession. Your parents will disown you because you threw your life away, and your girlfriend will dump you by sending a video of herself banging your best friend. You'll never get a residency, especially an OB/GYN one in the northeast, and will eventually be reduced to selling your body on the street for pocket change (because no one is going to pay you a whole dollar with that DO behind your name) all the while lamenting the day you ever applied to a DO program.

This is the very first school I searched for, FYI: http://www.bmc.org/obgyn/education/residency-alumni.htm

You forgot the part about being relegated to practicing family medicine in North Dakota, where your boss will be a nurse practitioner.

Originally Posted by fluoropHore

Sorry to spam up the place - I posted in the OB forum, but not sure if this belongs here.

I'm from PA/NJ area and kind of want to stick around.. but I didn't get into any MD schools so far (all north eastern DO) and reading these MD vs. DO threads is starting to freak me the F out.. For what its worth, I'm interested in OB/gyn. I know I'm totally premature in asking this, but what programs/hospitals should i NOT even consider elective rotations at because the chance of a DO getting residency is still stacked against them even after a brief stint in- house...hell, getting residency period statistically seems immensely difficult.. Looking at the current resident lists for lots of the programs I'm interested in NO DOs. Boo...anyway, should I forget competitive places like penn Hosp, Drexel, Jeff, (and anything in MA/CT/RI) as a DO? I've tried contacting their residency coordinators/offices and no one has the time to talk with me regarding these issues. Should I warm up to the idea of moving to the midwest?......It's seems silly to wait another year for MD. but SDN is making me poop my pants...

Originally Posted by Fox800

OB shouldn't be hard at all to get into as a DO. No one can tell you what your chances are if you aren't even in school. Plus all residency programs will be ACGME accredited in the next 3-4 years, so there's that. Maybe do some more research before flipping out.

i think you guys are basically talking past each other. Fox800 is right in that if OP goes to a DO school (s)he won't have a problem matching into an OB program, however that's not what OP is asking. OP seems to have his/her sights set on these specific programs and frankly if you don't see DO residents in any of the 4 years then you almost certainly won't have much luck there if you go DO and end up applying to OB in 4 years. On the other hand I'm sure there are plenty of smaller and/or less prestigious programs in PA/NJ/MA/RI/CT that will be very welcoming to DOs.

Originally Posted by fluoropHore

.hell, getting residency period statistically seems immensely difficult.

Print this beast off and read through it next time you take a deuce. You might be pleasantly surprised...

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf

i don't think you need a top tier residency to deliver babies and inspect vaginas in pa/nj.

Originally Posted by fluoropHore

Thanks! Ok i have another question, I didn't want to start a new thread and spam up the place.

I'm from PA/NJ area and kind of want to stick around.. but I didn't get into any MD schools so far (all north eastern DO) and reading these MD vs. DO threads is starting to freak me the F out.. For what its worth, I'm interested in OB/gyn. I know I'm totally premature in asking this, but what programs/hospitals should i NOT even consider elective rotations at because the chance of a DO getting residency is still stacked against them even after a brief stint in- house...hell, getting residency period statistically seems immensely difficult.. anyway, should I forget competitive places like Upenn/Penn Hosp, Drexel, Jeff, (and anything in Boston) as a DO? I've tried contacting their residency coordinators/offices and no one has the time to talk with me regarding these issues. Should I warm up to the idea of moving to the southwest?......

Take a deep breath. Now first worry about getting into medical school. Once accepted then worry about getting good marks and doing well on step one. Now it's time to worry about residency. Just because you got accepted into an MD school doesn't automatically get you a competitive residency interview. I think the same can be said that just because you get into a DO school you are limited in your residency choices. It's all about the candidate and what they look like as a whole. Good luck.

In general, I would say that you shouldn't spend $X00,000 at a school that you won't be excited to go to or if you think the outcome won't be the best that you think it can be. If you were in love with the schools you got accepted to, then go! You'll be a doctor and be an OB (and who knows, you might not even want to do OB anymore). But the thing is, it's hard to stay motivated if you don't like where you are.

Now for some practical advice: take a look at the northeast programs' websites that you're interested in and see if there are DOs. People on SDN want you to think you can just walk into anything if you really want it, but the truth is, you have to work really freaking hard to get what you want - and like it or not, part of the filters that program directors have for applicants is the "medical school." Go to the best medical school you can go to and don't drink the SDN kool-aid that it doesn't matter where you go to school. It'll pay off when you apply to residency.

Moving to pre-osteo forum.

Originally Posted by fluoropHore

Look, I'm not saying I don't want DO, I want OB ( I think?), and after SDN;s back and forth on the subject, and finding corroborating "evidence" that I find very few to no DOs in progs in areas I'm interested in, I just got cold feet... Wanted input on OB specifically in my region. Of course anyone can look this up and claim "No DOs" but i've also personally heard people say they refuse to look at DO apps. Q: In your opinion(s), is it an uphill battle if I chose to stay in this region?

Look, NOBODY WANTS OB. My good friend just finished an OB residency at UMDNJ as a DO. Get into medical school first. You shouldn't have a problem. Plus most people change their specialty choice once in medical school.

Originally Posted by che04

i think this is your problem.

If it makes you feel better i can tell you what you seem to want to hear: Personally i'm so glad i'm in an md school; it's so totally worth it to wait another year and go md over do. If you go to a do school you're basically a step below a chiropractor and looked down on by everyone in the medical field. Your parents will disown you because you threw your life away, and your girlfriend will dump you by sending you a video of herself banging your best friend. You'll never get a residency, especially an ob/gyn one in the northeast, and will eventually be reduced to selling your body on the street for pocket change (because no one is going to pay you a whole dollar with that do behind your name) all the while lamenting the day you ever applied to a do program.

This is the very first (and only) school i searched for, fyi: http://www.bmc.org/obgyn/education/residency-alumni.htm

wtf?????

Originally Posted by cabinbuilder

wtf?????

It's a joke.

OP,

As a student at a DO school I think this: If you think that you have a shot at an MD school, defer your acceptance and apply MD next year. Give it one more shot. Having an MD will be a big advantage. You are essentially out of the running for many of the more competitive fields with a DO. Look at the match lists from DO schools--most people end up in primary care and so-so places. Sure, some people match at great academic institutions, but you have to be realistic. The cards, to a significant degree, will be stacked against you as a DO. Maybe some DO students don't like that and don't want to hear that, but it's true. That said, if you are truly certain that your interest is OB/GYN, I think going DO is fine. It's not hard to get a spot in that field

I wouldn't wait a year.

Originally Posted by cabinbuilder

Look, NOBODY WANTS OB. My good friend just finished an OB residency at UMDNJ as a DO. Get into medical school first. You shouldn't have a problem. Plus most people change their specialty choice once in medical school.

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Originally Posted by LovelyBRass

In general, I would say that you shouldn't spend $X00,000 at a school that you won't be excited to go to or if you think the outcome won't be the best that you think it can be. If you were in love with the schools you got accepted to, then go! You'll be a doctor and be an OB (and who knows, you might not even want to do OB anymore). But the thing is, it's hard to stay motivated if you don't like where you are.

Now for some practical advice: take a look at the northeast programs' websites that you're interested in and see if there are DOs. People on SDN want you to think you can just walk into anything if you really want it, but the truth is, you have to work really freaking hard to get what you want - and like it or not, part of the filters that program directors have for applicants is the "medical school." Go to the best medical school you can go to and don't drink the SDN kool-aid that it doesn't matter where you go to school. It'll pay off when you apply to residency.

Ok thanks for the practical advice. Sorry, I didn't mean about the "move to midwest" part, it was kind of inflammatory... Yes, all i was asking was about doing OB at a good residency as a DO in the NE, since they seem to exclude DO. I don't know why everyone got all up in arms. Just wanted an insider's opinion.

Originally Posted by Silent Cool

It's a joke.

OP,

As a student at a DO school I think this: If you think that you have a shot at an MD school, defer your acceptance and apply MD next year. Give it one more shot. Having an MD will be a big advantage. You are essentially out of the running for many of the more competitive fields with a DO. Look at the match lists from DO schools--most people end up in primary care and so-so places. Sure, some people match at great academic institutions, but you have to be realistic. The cards, to a significant degree, will be stacked against you as a DO. Maybe some DO students don't like that and don't want to hear that, but it's true. That said, if you are truly certain that your interest is OB/GYN, I think going DO is fine. It's not hard to get a spot in that field

This OP.

On one hand I think you should start asap.

On the other hand, I think you should let someone who wants to be a DO have your spot.

I'm conflicted.

Originally Posted by Mehd School

On one hand I think you should start asap.

On the other hand, I think you should let someone who wants to be a DO have your spot.

I'm conflicted.

Yeah, I'm kind of wondering what this guy/girl answered for the "Why DO" questions in the secondaries and interviews.

The title of this thread has me imagining myself fighting my way through a two feet deep swamp of slimy, smelly, brown DO bias.

Wait... DOs get to apply for residencies? I thought I'd end up teaching an MCAT course...

The larger question is why a premed would think they are qualified to judge residency programs...go to med school and get an idea what you want to do, if you still want OB apply there

You are many steps from a residency, just get into mad school

Erm..., I WANT DO/OB, I just didn't do my research thoroughly (SDN) after applying regarding residencies. It was kind of a silly question in retrospect, but I've been having much push-back/confusion regarding MY GEOGRAPHIC AREA specifically. Thanks everyone who gave me constructive feedback.

This wasn't meant to be inflammatory, though sorry for using such words as "sludge" and "relegating".... Just look two threads down, "would you have gone MD if you were accepted?" Same crap, different smell.

OP, what are your grades and why do you think you were not accepted into an MD school? If you have a state that likes In-staters and its just your MCAT holding you back, retake the MCAT.

If it were me and I had the GPA to go MD but lacked the MCAT score, I would retake and try one more year to get into MD. In state tuition is reason enough to wait a year!!

DO schools are almost 15K more expensive than MD schools right? Interest alone is as much as one year of tuition.

Hmm. Another MD vs DO thread. Merry Christmas SDN

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Originally Posted by fluoropHore

That's funny because there were FMGs on these lists and no DOs. So uh, maybe?

Yeah but you have to understand in the vast majority of those cases those are FMGs who were citizens of the countries where they received their medical education from what I've seen. You aren't going to see to many people from Ross or SGU going into some of those residencies you covet.

Not saying getting DO makes it a cake walk for good residencies but becoming an FMG carries a much greater risk of career suicide.

Originally Posted by Silent Cool

It's a joke.

OP,

As a student at a DO school I think this: If you think that you have a shot at an MD school, defer your acceptance and apply MD next year. Give it one more shot. Having an MD will be a big advantage. You are essentially out of the running for many of the more competitive fields with a DO. Look at the match lists from DO schools--most people end up in primary care and so-so places. Sure, some people match at great academic institutions, but you have to be realistic. The cards, to a significant degree, will be stacked against you as a DO. Maybe some DO students don't like that and don't want to hear that, but it's true. That said, if you are truly certain that your interest is OB/GYN, I think going DO is fine. It's not hard to get a spot in that field

This. To me it would be worth losing a year to end up in the specialty/residency/ fellowship of my choice. With that said, however, I do not think my future would have been much different as an MD, but I got good grades and applied to a DO friendly field.

Originally Posted by Balantidiumcoli

Yeah but you have to understand in the vast majority of those cases those are FMGs who were citizens of the country's where they received their medical education from what I've seen. You aren't going to see to many people from Ross or SGU going into some of those residencies you covet.

Not saying getting DO makes it a cake walk for good residencies but becoming an FMG carries a much greater risk of career suicide.

Excellent point. One that I don't think many pre-meds realize. When you hear people say certain residency programs don't accept DOs but they accept FMGs, they may not realize that these FMGs are not often coming from Ross, SGU, etc. They are coming from places like Germany, India, China, etc. I would also suspect that these are rock-star applicants.

Originally Posted by NeuroLAX

I would also suspect that these are rock-star applicants.

Exactly. They're the types of people who could have been admitted to a tier 1 American medical school had they been born in the right country.

Here's a list of current Ob/Gyn residents at Penn:

http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/obgyn/educ...es-current.htm

The only FMG is Anna Sokalska who graduated from a Polish medical school but she is actually Polish and even has a PhD.

-Edit- It turns out she also completed an entire Ob/Gyn residency in Poland before going to Penn.

Originally Posted by Balantidiumcoli

Exactly. They're the types of people who could have been admitted to a tier 1 American medical school had they been born in the right country.

Here's a list of current Ob/Gyn residents at Penn:

http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/obgyn/educ...es-current.htm

The only FMG is Anna Sokalska who graduated from a Polish medical school but she is actually Polish and even has a PhD.

The bold is also another great point. I have also found many FMGs with PhDs at the programs that do not have DO residents but have FMGs. I'm not sure if this is a general theme among FMGs from these countries, but it is certainly one observation that I have made.

Originally Posted by NeuroLAX

The bold is also another great point. I have also found many FMGs with PhDs at the programs that do not have DO residents but have FMGs. I'm not sure if this is a general theme among FMGs from these countries, but it is certainly one observation that I have made.

Considering the high premium on research at these places it makes a lot of sense to me. Apparently she was an assistant research professor at UC Davis before she even got into Penn for an Ob/Gyn residency and had a bunch of research collaboration with Yale and Vanderbilt.

So yeah... if anyone is thinking going to Ross or SGU so you can get an 'MD' will help your app. to tier 1 residencies let that sink in...

Originally Posted by Balantidiumcoli

So yeah... if anyone is thinking going to Ross or SGU so you can get an 'MD' will help your app. to tier 1 residencies let that sink in...

who's arguing that? stop constructing a strawman so you don't have to answer the actual question. it's obvious that when people on here say MD they mean US MD.

Originally Posted by Balantidiumcoli

Considering the high premium on research at these places it makes a lot of sense to me. Apparently she was an assistant research professor at UC Davis before she even got into Penn for an Ob/Gyn residency and had a bunch of research collaboration with Yale and Vanderbilt.

So yeah... if anyone is thinking going to Ross or SGU so you can get an 'MD' will help your app. to tier 1 residencies let that sink in...

Curious- why did she have to do a second residency? Don't FMG's just have to take boards/licensing to practice in US?

Originally Posted by fluoropHore

Curious- why did she have to do a second residency? Don't FMG's just have to take boards/licensing to practice in US?

Nope. They have to take all of the usmle steps and apply for residency in the US. No other residency counts. You need an acgme or aoa certified residency to practice in the US.

Originally Posted by fluoropHore

Curious- why did she have to do a second residency? Don't FMG's just have to take boards/licensing to practice in US?

No. Google "medical licensure requirements" and you will find your answer. The amount of required postgraduate medical training IN THE U.S. for FMGs varies from state to state.

Originally Posted by skinMD

who's arguing that? stop constructing a strawman so you don't have to answer the actual question. it's obvious that when people on here say MD they mean US MD.

Originally Posted by Fox800

If the letters behind your name are worth a year's lost wages as a practicing OB/GYN, have at it. I know plenty of people that chose to go to the Caribbean just so they can receive an MD degree (and then match as an IMG) instead of going to a well-established DO school (and receive a better education for less money). You'll have to be the one to make that call.

Originally Posted by fluoropHore

That's funny because there were FMGs on these lists and no DOs. So uh, maybe?

Yeah...

Originally Posted by oms2

i don't think you need a top tier residency to deliver babies and inspect vaginas in pa/nj.

Anyone adamant about pursuing OB as a pre-med unwittingly projects an ignorance that is hard to overestimate.

Anyhow, OP will end up in nursing school.

Originally Posted by diagonal

Anyone adamant about pursuing OB as a pre-med unwittingly projects an ignorance that is hard to overestimate.

Anyhow, OP will end up in nursing school.

I don't think I'm *that* ignorant. I have craptons of OBs in my family and I've shadowed actual residents, not private-practice Gyns. I'm vaguely familiar with the long hours. So much hubris.. wth is wrong w nursing now.

OB may look appealing to you since you have an outside view of it, but come rotations you'll be in the thick of it and you may realize you find yourself interested in something wildly different. There's a reason many med students change what specialty they end up practicing in. If I were you, I wouldn't wait another year b/c the costs are too great; the year of lost attending salary, the uncertainty that you'll actually get in the second time around and the stress/expense of reapplying (re-applicants fare worse than first timers).

Getting accepted into an MD won't change the kind of student you are, your study habits, or your grades. Residencies will be merged and what'll matter more is how you personally performed. You have a great opportunity so I wouldn't throw it away b/c of the naive pre-med SDN paranoia.

Originally Posted by fluoropHore

I don't think I'm *that* ignorant. I have craptons of OBs in my family and I've shadowed actual residents, not private-practice Gyns. I'm vaguely familiar with the long hours. So much hubris.. wth is wrong w nursing now.

Thats SDN for you. Lots of ignorance and arrogance with some helpful information sprinkled in.

If you don't mind waiting another year and are really that worried about the possibility of not getting an OB/Gyn residency then you should wait a year. Honestly though, I don't think you'll be screwing yourself over if you go DO. Just my 2 cents.