2.58 uGPA - where to go from here

[casualnihilism]

Hi everyone,

I graduated from UIC in December with a **** GPA, but i know i can handle the weight (based on my performance in my final semester...i know, idiotic to wait that long), and am adamant about going to med school, but I'm not sure how to go about it.

I've been told I need to do a postbac first, and then an SMP, and then MAYBE I have a shot, but its still a big risk (I know DO is the safer alternative, but I'm just curious about what needs to be done for an MD program to take me).

If I were to try a postbac for GPA repair, would an informal, online route cut it? i already have plenty loans and don't have the means to quit my daytime job or relocate. would the postbac retaken course grades average with my old grades? theoretically, how long would it take to bring a 2.58 up to a 3.0, so that I can apply for an SMP?

a few more stats:
research: 10 months in a biochem lab (30-50/week, but no publication and no prospect of one in sight, which is making me consider leaving this lab? actually would immensely appreciate any advice on this as well)
work: ~5 years (25-40 hrs/week)
not much in EC: started a music organization for one year, one year as a volunteer judge in chicago debate league, 2 years in the ISO, and currently volunteering for the bernie campaign

I've recently started shadowing and am looking for hospital volunteer opportunities.

Is this even worth pursuing at all? am i in over my head here? i started studying for the GRE to at least apply for a traditional masters program that will accept me conditionally*, but SMP's are better for med school apps and I need an MCAT score for that, so I'm not even sure which test to prep for here.

*the logic here is that, if med school doesnt pan out for me, at least i wouldnt spend as much time on GPA repair and prep, and can instead move towards a career in bio research.

any comments and advice are appreciated beyond measure!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

Given your previous academic history we can't be sure you'd ace everything in a post bacc or SMP; even if you did its still not looking great. You don't even have an MCAT score so theres that whole monster as well. I would think to retake C/D/F courses, take the MCAT and do well, get shadowing and clinical experience, and go DO(accepts grade replacement, MD does not).

 

[Optimist Prime]

Definitely do DO the money it would cost you to raise your gpa to 3.0 without being able to do grade replacements, and the cost of an SMP will be significantly more.

 

[samac]

DO is your way to go with grade replacement.
I don't see you being in any shape to be able to go MD. Ever. that's one of the worst GPAs I've seen, most SMPs won't take you until you have a GPA 3.0+, which would require much more effort and a lot more loans in a post bac.
I'm not even sure you could get your GPA that high with the post bac.
And no, an online program wouldn't cut it

Edit: what's just your science GPA?

 

[sat0ri]

Assuming you took exactly 120 hours to graduate, and you make a perfect 4.0 in all post bacc work, you need 50.4 credit hours to get to a 3.0 GPA
((120*2.58)+(x*4.0)) / (x+120)=3.0; x=50.4 credit hours

To get to 3.5, you need 220 perfect credit hours or nearly two bachelors degrees
((120*2.58)+(x*4.0)) / (x+120)=3.5; x=220.8

I'd say DO is the only reasonable option. Your app looks great otherwise so DO is really set up for people like you who assert they are competent, have good records otherwise, and prove themselves through grade forgiveness. I'd say MD is totally out; I guess you want to do post bacc then SMP, but that road is very risky, and the rewards are far eclipsed by the risks. Also, I think many post baccs require a 3.0 to even enroll, and SMP have min GPA's (and the best you can shoot for s/p post bacc is 3.0) and are also competitive. So even if you do perfect, you could be screwed out of all that time amd money

Why don't you have prospects of publishing, considering you could be there for 1.5 more years on top of 10 months? How's the pay, lifestyle, and level of enjoyment there?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[Glandzburg]

As @sat0ri said, it would take 3-4 full-time semesters of getting straight 4.0's to even bring your GPA up to 3.0. I'm sorry to say, but the MD ship has almost certainly sailed for you. Retaking some classes you did poorly in and utilizing grade replacement while applying DO would but a much better use of your time. Best of luck!

 

[aalamruad]

Assuming you took exactly 120 hours to graduate, and you make a perfect 4.0 in all post bacc work, you need 50.4 credit hours to get to a 3.0 GPA
((120*2.58)+(x*4.0)) / (x+120)=3.0; x=50.4 credit hours

To get to 3.5, you need 220 perfect credit hours or nearly two bachelors degrees
((120*2.58)+(x*4.0)) / (x+120)=3.5; x=220.8

I'd say DO is the only reasonable option. Your app looks great otherwise so DO is really set up for people like you who assert they are competent, have good records otherwise, and prove themselves through grade forgiveness. I'd say MD is totally out; I guess you want to do post bacc then SMP, but that road is very risky, and the rewards are far eclipsed by the risks. Also, I think many post baccs require a 3.0 to even enroll, and SMP have min GPA's (and the best you can shoot for s/p post bacc is 3.0) and are also competitive. So even if you do perfect, you could be screwed out of all that time amd money

Why don't you have prospects of publishing, considering you could be there for 1.5 more years on top of 10 months? How's the pay, lifestyle, and level of enjoyment there?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

I have to disagree with you that OP's app "looks great" other than the GPA. S/he doesn't even have any clinical experience (except for recently deciding to shadow). No clinical volunteering whatsoever. That alone would lead to almost 100% rejections, even with a stellar GPA. If I had to guess from the EC's, I'd say that OP was probably applying to law school, not med school.

 

[sat0ri]

I have to disagree with you that OP's app "looks great" other than the GPA. S/he doesn't even have any clinical experience (except for recently deciding to shadow). No clinical volunteering whatsoever. That alone would lead to almost 100% rejections, even with a stellar GPA. If I had to guess from the EC's, I'd say that OP was probably applying to law school, not med school.

Great point. Clinical exposure might be the easiest part of an application to repair, but the patent dearth outside shadowing and (hopeful) hospital volunteering raises some bigger questions of why medicine when there's nothing to suggest that was on their radar previously. It also potentially undermines their chances of success, as the GPA will be a steep uphill battle that will require unfaltering motivation. Further, this fixation on MD instead of DO adds to the picture of potentially choosing medicine for the wrong reasons.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[samac]

I have to disagree with you that OP's app "looks great" other than the GPA. S/he doesn't even have any clinical experience (except for recently deciding to shadow). No clinical volunteering whatsoever. That alone would lead to almost 100% rejections, even with a stellar GPA. If I had to guess from the EC's, I'd say that OP was probably applying to law school, not med school.

Totally disagree.
Clinical volunteering is in no way necessary as long as you have some volunteering somewhere and shadowing. I don't know who told you no clinical volunteering is 100% rejection but that's totally wrong.

 

[aalamruad]

Totally disagree.
Clinical volunteering is in no way necessary as long as you have some volunteering somewhere and shadowing. I don't know who told you no clinical volunteering is 100% rejection but that's totally wrong.

It's common knowledge on these forums, provided by the adcoms, whose opinions I'm inclined to take seriously. How can anyone possibly know that they want to spend the rest of their lives taking care of sick people if they've never spent a single second interacting with patients..? Shadowing + nonclinical volunteering =/= clinical volunteering.

 

[samac]

It's common knowledge on these forums, provided by the adcoms, whose opinions I'm inclined to take seriously. How can anyone possibly know that they want to spend the rest of their lives taking care of sick people if they've never spent a single second interacting with patients..? Shadowing + nonclinical volunteering =/= clinical volunteering.

I feel like the opposite is common knowledge on theses forum a and the shadowing is what gets you the knowledge of what you'd be doing for the rest of your life.
It's much better to do volunteering you're passionate about not in medicine and shadow then just do clinical volunteering to check a box. I didn't have a second of it on my application but plenty of shadowing and other volunteering and I got interviews everywhere.
I also applied mostly DO, but I don't believe the system is that different for MD.

 

[aalamruad]

I feel like the opposite is common knowledge on theses forum a and the shadowing is what gets you the knowledge of what you'd be doing for the rest of your life.
It's much better to do volunteering you're passionate about not in medicine and shadow then just do clinical volunteering to check a box. I didn't have a second of it on my application but plenty of shadowing and other volunteering and I got interviews everywhere.
I also applied mostly DO, but I don't believe the system is that different for MD.

No patient interaction = weak app, almost always.

The adcoms on this site have made it clear that the point of clinical volunteering is to display your compassion and altruism. Volunteering for the Bernie campaign (no offense intended, OP) doesn't make the same implications about your character or goals.

 

[RuKid23]

@OP, I was in your exact same position 2 yeras ago. I graduated with a 2.65 and have taken 44 credit hours at a informal postbacc (UMD) excluding what I am taking this semester with a 4.0 run, and my cgpa is now a 3.007. It has been tough doing this while working but I have managed well. I do plan to attend a SMP by next fall (2017) and have been studying for the MCAT as of now. I definitely have a different opinion than the rest, if you are willing to spend the money (which can't be that much if you go toa local state school), i honestly do not think MD is out of the question, if you disciple yourself and receive NOTHING but A's in your postbacc and SMP, or as close as possible. Personally, I am shooting for MD but if i get a opportunity for DO, im taking it.

 

[thatwouldbeanarchy]

If I were to try a postbac for GPA repair, would an informal, online route cut it? i already have plenty loans and don't have the means to quit my daytime job or relocate. would the postbac retaken course grades average with my old grades?

Unfortunately, online won't cut it. There are some schools that accept online coursework but probably not enough for it to be a safe bet. And if you need to retake Bio, Chem, and/or Physics labs, online won't help you. If you need to work, I recommend looking for a university in your area that offers night classes through a school of continuing education or something like that. That's how I took all of my prereqs (nontrad). I worked during the day and limited myself to 2 classes per semester. There's some debate here on SDN about the perception of CC coursework but in your case, it may not be a bad idea, if it's the most affordable option.

I agree that DO with grade replacement is probably the easier path (in terms of money, time, and likelihood of getting an acceptance) since MD schools will include every course attempt in your GPA, including all of your low grades from undergrad. But obviously, retaking courses costs money and doesn't set really set you up for a plan B, if medicine doesn't work out. It's worth considering if you're willing to take that risk. And also spending some time really trying to figure out why you haven't done well in your prereqs thus far!

 

[Goro]

I have to disagree with my young colleague here. But to clarify, we need patient contact experience for our applicants, because we Adcoms need to know that applicants know what they're getting into, and that they really want to be around sick and injured people for the next 30-40 years.

My student interviewers tend to be quite harsh in their evaluations of people with little patient contact experience.

Both at my school, and in these forums, we've seen high stat, high caliber people rejected because of the lack of patient contact experience.


.

Totally disagree.
Clinical volunteering is in no way necessary as long as you have some volunteering somewhere and shadowing. I don't know who told you no clinical volunteering is 100% rejection but that's totally wrong.

 

[samac]

I have to disagree with my young colleague here. But to clarify, we need patient contact experience for our applicants, because we Adcoms need to know that applicants know what they're getting into, and that they really want to be around sick and injured people for the next 30-40 years.

My student interviewers tend to be quite harsh in their evaluations of people with little patient contact experience.

Both at my school, and in these forums, we've seen high stat, high caliber people rejected because of the lack of patient contact experience.


.

I got ya and I get that. I guess I feel volunteering with underserved people, shows a level of altruism that suffices with the addition of shadowing to show you understand the job of a physician.
I had many volunteer hours doing various things, I just had 0 in the medical field.
I had a job at a health department but it was 0 patient contact and spent most of my time working on a website.
I guess in my case I come from a family where everyone is in some part of the medical field, from paramedic to physician so I guess I didn't feel the need to prove I understand the field.

Anecdotal experience doesn't ever beat an Adcom though, thanks for letting me know!

 

[casualnihilism]

Assuming you took exactly 120 hours to graduate, and you make a perfect 4.0 in all post bacc work, you need 50.4 credit hours to get to a 3.0 GPA
((120*2.58)+(x*4.0)) / (x+120)=3.0; x=50.4 credit hours

To get to 3.5, you need 220 perfect credit hours or nearly two bachelors degrees
((120*2.58)+(x*4.0)) / (x+120)=3.5; x=220.8

I'd say DO is the only reasonable option. Your app looks great otherwise so DO is really set up for people like you who assert they are competent, have good records otherwise, and prove themselves through grade forgiveness. I'd say MD is totally out; I guess you want to do post bacc then SMP, but that road is very risky, and the rewards are far eclipsed by the risks. Also, I think many post baccs require a 3.0 to even enroll, and SMP have min GPA's (and the best you can shoot for s/p post bacc is 3.0) and are also competitive. So even if you do perfect, you could be screwed out of all that time amd money

Why don't you have prospects of publishing, considering you could be there for 1.5 more years on top of 10 months? How's the pay, lifestyle, and level of enjoyment there?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

thanks for the breakdown. if i go the DO route, would it be more effective to just do something like 50 credit hours to get to a 3.0, take the MCAT and apply, or would it be possible to jump straight into an SMP specifically for DO schools and then apply? would I still need to do the risky combination of both?

the atmosphere feels stagnant, not in terms of research quality, but in relation to other lab members. their previous publications and research ideas are really awesome, which is why i joined to begin with, but it turned out tenfold less fulfilling than i thought it'd be (still learned a lot though). zero pay (joined the lab as an undergrad, so the lack of pay made sense then, but since i need an income i work at a job 4 days a week and in the lab 3 days a week)

 

[Glandzburg]

thanks for the breakdown. if i go the DO route, would it be more effective to just do something like 50 credit hours to get to a 3.0, take the MCAT and apply, or would it be possible to jump straight into an SMP specifically for DO schools and then apply? would I still need to do the risky combination of both?

Do you know about grade replacement for DO? If you retake classes that you did poorly in, the DO application system will recalculate your GPA using only your highest grade for each class. If you were to get A's in classes in which you previously got D's or F's, your "DO GPA" would climb significantly. That is why people are telling you that it would be faster/easier to apply DO, because the MD application system still includes your poor grades in its GPA calculation.

 

[casualnihilism]

Great point. Clinical exposure might be the easiest part of an application to repair, but the patent dearth outside shadowing and (hopeful) hospital volunteering raises some bigger questions of why medicine when there's nothing to suggest that was on their radar previously. It also potentially undermines their chances of success, as the GPA will be a steep uphill battle that will require unfaltering motivation. Further, this fixation on MD instead of DO adds to the picture of potentially choosing medicine for the wrong reasons.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

i was undecided for a good majority of my undergrad time on what i wanted to do, and actually was considering something more in the humanities, but i won't spell out a list of reasons here why I'm considering medicine since they won't reflect on my resume. not necessarily fixated on MD, although the question is posed in a way that may make it seem like i am. would happily take a DO opportunity if i can land one (which is seeming impossible right now, let alone a more competitive spot in an MD program).

I feel like the opposite is common knowledge on theses forum a and the shadowing is what gets you the knowledge of what you'd be doing for the rest of your life.
It's much better to do volunteering you're passionate about not in medicine and shadow then just do clinical volunteering to check a box. I didn't have a second of it on my application but plenty of shadowing and other volunteering and I got interviews everywhere.
I also applied mostly DO, but I don't believe the system is that different for MD.

my opinion obviously doesn't matter at all, but i really agree with the idea of volunteering where you feel passionate. i know a lot of students who spent time in clinics doing close to nothing there, which seems like a useless way to spend volunteer hours that you could otherwise spend on things that yield some immediate and observable good and then just get shadowing experience. but then again, many of them got interviews and acceptance letters so i guess its a system that works.

 

[casualnihilism]

Do you know about grade replacement for DO? If you retake classes that you did poorly in, the DO application system will recalculate your GPA using only your highest grade for each class. If you were to get A's in classes in which you previously got D's or F's, your "DO GPA" would climb significantly. That is why people are telling you that it would be faster/easier to apply DO, because the MD application system still includes your poor grades in its GPA calculation.

yea I'm aware of grade replacement; was just wondering on the best approach since an experienced med school advisor told me that even with some informal postbacc courses for grade replacements, i should still do an SMP geared for DO schools to maximize my chances of acceptance. from what I understood from that advisor, the best choice is an SMP, and she told me that I could maybe get into a low tier DO SMP as I stand. from what I understand of this thread, doing postbacc work with DO GPA recalc is my best bet

 

[candbgirl]

OP you came here for advice and you have gotten excellent advice. The majority of people here know way more than premed advisors know. So believe what you want but...

 

[casualnihilism]

@OP, I was in your exact same position 2 yeras ago. I graduated with a 2.65 and have taken 44 credit hours at a informal postbacc (UMD) excluding what I am taking this semester with a 4.0 run, and my cgpa is now a 3.007. It has been tough doing this while working but I have managed well. I do plan to attend a SMP by next fall (2017) and have been studying for the MCAT as of now. I definitely have a different opinion than the rest, if you are willing to spend the money (which can't be that much if you go toa local state school), i honestly do not think MD is out of the question, if you disciple yourself and receive NOTHING but A's in your postbacc and SMP, or as close as possible. Personally, I am shooting for MD but if i get a opportunity for DO, im taking it.

thank you for a post of hope! that's incredibly inspiring, and I'm vaguely considering a path/timeline like this, despite it being contrary to the collective better judgement. good luck with the SMP, MCAT and med school!

 

[casualnihilism]

OP you came here for advice and you have gotten excellent advice. The majority of people here know way more than premed advisors know. So believe what you want but...

I'm definitely absorbing all of this and considering it more than what one advisor told me. it was just a question in response to someone's comment. the added advantage of postbacc with a DO GPA is that i'd have more time to study for the MCAT, which i wouldn't have if i wanted to go right into a DO SMP. i get it

 

[thatwouldbeanarchy]

yea I'm aware of grade replacement; was just wondering on the best approach since an experienced med school advisor told me that even with some informal postbacc courses for grade replacements, i should still do an SMP geared for DO schools to maximize my chances of acceptance. from what I understood from that advisor, the best choice is an SMP, and she told me that I could maybe get into a low tier DO SMP as I stand. from what I understand of this thread, doing postbacc work with DO GPA recalc is my best bet

I'll qualify this by saying that I know very little about SMPs and even less about DO schools... So I don't think I'm qualified to say if SMP is your best bet. But here's a list from AACOM: http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/cib/2016_post-bacc-programs.pdf

Questions that come to mind: Would you qualify for acceptance into any of these programs with your current GPA? You may need to take a few classes to boost your GPA before you could even apply. Have you really addressed your academic issues? You say that you've done better in your final semester. But SMPs are risky. If you start one and do poorly, you'll be in even worse shape than you are now.

 

[casualnihilism]

since I'm getting grilled for my lack of clinical exposure, is this a fair question: does it make sense to quit my research lab and allocate those hours to a hospital? my research won't be getting me published unless i quit my job, spend 50-60 unpaid hours a week there, and then maybe i can be second author in a year. i was told that research experience looks good for med school apps, but based on this thread it seems like it matter significantly less over clinical volunteering

 

[thatwouldbeanarchy]

since I'm getting grilled for my lack of clinical exposure, is this a fair question: does it make sense to quit my research lab and allocate those hours to a hospital? my research won't be getting me published unless i quit my job, spend 50-60 unpaid hours a week there, and then maybe i can be second author in a year. i was told that research experience looks good for med school apps, but based on this thread it seems like it matter significantly less over clinical volunteering

You should plan to get some sort of clinical exposure, preferably something that gives you some patient interaction (not just stocking shelves or something). Doesn't necessarily need to be in a hospital. Could be a clinic, doctor's office, hospice, etc. Adcoms on here have said that research is valuable whether you publish or not. But if you're not happy with your current position, no need to stick it out. What your application really lacks at this point is clinical experience so it makes sense to me to focus on that first and foremost.

If you need to work, maybe you could look for paid research opportunities and do some clinical volunteering on the side? I work full-time as a clinical research assistant and, at least for me, it's a pretty great gig. Lots of patient interaction plus valuable research experience at the same time.

 

[aalamruad]

since I'm getting grilled for my lack of clinical exposure, is this a fair question: does it make sense to quit my research lab and allocate those hours to a hospital? my research won't be getting me published unless i quit my job, spend 50-60 unpaid hours a week there, and then maybe i can be second author in a year. i was told that research experience looks good for med school apps, but based on this thread it seems like it matter significantly less over clinical volunteering

Best case scenario, you might have a shot at a DO school, and DO schools don't tend to value research nearly as much as MD schools do. Publications are mostly just lucky for undergrads, and med schools know that, so they don't value publications as much as they value solid research experience. Publications really shouldn't be your goal unless you're gunning for an MD/PhD program, or just a pure PhD program, and that's not the case for you. Go find a clinical volunteering position with meaningful patient interaction.

 

[VegasPreMed]

MD is possible. I did it coming from a mid-2's GPA. It took essentially another degree (didn't have any of the prereq's anyway, so I just got a second degree. I have well over 200 UG credits now). You need to stomp the MCAT and get clinical experience (I did scribing). If I had already had the prereq's done, I would have done grade replacement and only applied DO, however. Faster route.

Best of luck.

 

[Erza]

You should do the postbacc and raise your GPA

 

[RuKid23]

thank you for a post of hope! that's incredibly inspiring, and I'm vaguely considering a path/timeline like this, despite it being contrary to the collective better judgement. good luck with the SMP, MCAT and med school!

No problem man. one thing i would suggest from my opinion only is to stay in a post-bacc until you feel like you have been there enough, at your gpa, which was similar to mine should be around 60 credits. Don't rush into a SMP because that is the final step, and if you rush into a SMP don't get into any schools after the program..what is next? I might be wrong but i just do not know how else you can improve you application from an academic standpoint after that. Good luck with everything