2 yr HPSP Obligation

[DOxidant]

Could somebody explain what the active duty obligation must be for 2yr HPSP? Many are saying it differently so I want the definite answer.

1) How long is the active duty obligation? 1 + 1 ?
2) Does it make a difference in the duration of Active Duty depends on whether I accept 20,000 signing bonus or not?
3) is this worth it? Or should I apply for FAP instead in the future?

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[DoctaJMa]

Could somebody explain what the active duty obligation must be for 2yr HPSP? Many are saying it differently so I want the definite answer.

1) How long is the active duty obligation? 1 + 1 ?
2) Does it make a difference in the duration of Active Duty depends on whether I accept 20,000 signing bonus or not?
3) is this worth it? Or should I apply for FAP instead in the future?

1) Your payback is 3 years if when you graduate med school you do a GMO tour and get out. If you were to do a military residency that is more than 3 years then you will owe however many years your residency is.

2) If you take the bonus you will owe a minimum of 4 years....if you do a military residency that is longer then you will owe more time.

3) Do a search here in SDN, from what i have read FAP is definitely better than taking a 2yr HPSP scholarship.

 

[J-Rad]

To my knowledge, there is always a three year minimum payback. Written into the contract is language that states that you owe two Active Duty Service Obligations (ADSO). One ADSO is a year-for-year paid stipulation. The other is always three years. This ADSO is paid off concurrently with the other ADSO, but the 2-year HPSP is the one scenario in which this ADSO exceeds the year-for-year. This was discussed in a recent thread and someone went back and looked at their contract and confirmed the existence of the two ADSOs. This, in my mind, makes the 2 year HPSP the worst deal going. You're basically giving them a free year of labor.

 

[J-Rad]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=797957
Posts 33 & 34.

 

[NavyFP]

To my knowledge, there is always a three year minimum payback. Written into the contract is language that states that you owe two Active Duty Service Obligations (ADSO). One ADSO is a year-for-year paid stipulation. The other is always three years. This ADSO is paid off concurrently with the other ADSO, but the 2-year HPSP is the one scenario in which this ADSO exceeds the year-for-year. This was discussed in a recent thread and someone went back and looked at their contract and confirmed the existence of the two ADSOs. This, in my mind, makes the 2 year HPSP the worst deal going. You're basically giving them a free year of labor.

The obligation you are referring to is a Minimum Service Obligation which is 3 years of active time. If you do a 2 year HPSP and complete your internship on active duty, the time is a wash. It adds time if you have a deferment for training.

 

[IlDestriero]

If you take a 2 year scholarship, you will have a 3 year AD obligation. Intern year counts for a year of payback but it concurrently creates a year of obligated service. You will still owe 3 years as a GMO afterward.
It's not a good deal, but could work for some people, and could give you an interesting experience as a flight or dive officer. I would recommend looking into the FAP instead if you want to serve.

 

[NavyFP]

If you take a 2 year scholarship, you will have a 3 year AD obligation. Intern year counts for a year of payback but it concurrently creates a year of obligated service. You will still owe 3 years as a GMO afterward.
It's not a good deal, but could work for some people, and could give you an interesting experience as a flight or dive officer. I would recommend looking into the FAP instead if you want to serve.

Not correct. Intern year is neutral as far as obligated service goes. You do not incur a year of service nor do you pay one back.

On active duty, it does count towards the minimum 3 year obligation. So, a 2 year HPSP who completes an internship on active duty will be able to get out after a 2 year GMO tour.

 

[IlDestriero]

Not correct. Intern year is neutral as far as obligated service goes. You do not incur a year of service nor do you pay one back.

On active duty, it does count towards the minimum 3 year obligation. So, a 2 year HPSP who completes an internship on active duty will be able to get out after a 2 year GMO tour.

I don't believe that you are correct regarding AD internship. My recollection is that you pay back a year of obligated service, and simultaneously incur another, making it net neutral. Otherwise all the dive and flight GMOs could get out of their 4 year commitment after one 3 year tour. They cannot, they owe 4 years of GMO time before they can get out into civilian training. Perhaps it is different with a 2 year scholarship, but I don't know why it would be. Their minimum service obligation is 3 years, just as if they had a 3 year scholarship. I had a 3 year scholarship. If I could have gotten out to civilian residency after 2 years of GMO time with our green side friends, I would have.

 

[AF M4]

I don't believe that you are correct regarding AD internship. My recollection is that you pay back a year of obligated service, and simultaneously incur another, making it net neutral. Otherwise all the dive and flight GMOs could get out of their 4 year commitment after one 3 year tour. They cannot, they owe 4 years of GMO time before they can get out into civilian training. Perhaps it is different with a 2 year scholarship, but I don't know why it would be. Their minimum service obligation is 3 years, just as if they had a 3 year scholarship. I had a 3 year scholarship. If I could have gotten out to civilian residency after 2 years of GMO time with our green side friends, I would have.

Exactly. The military internship is still neutral. All it does is pay back a year of the total 8-year MSO, not the active duty component. Sorry.

 

[henge]

I'm confused about the two or three year payback for two-year Army HSPS scholarships. The Army's HPSP Fact Sheet says: "Your period of military service to the Army is a minimum of two years or one year for each year you receive the HPSP, whichever is longer... For example, after completing internship training, the minimum period of active duty service for medical students is two years."

Post-internship graduate medical education increases your payback period year for year, but the payback for the medical school HPSP scholarship and the post-internship GME run concurrently, so as long as your post-internship GME is two years or fewer, your payback would not increase. Since the internship typically counts as the equivalent of PGY1, it seems you could do a three year Army residency (i.e., an internship plus PGY2 and PGY3) in fields such as internal medicine, peds or emergency medicine, then serve two years on AD, then be done (except for the remainder of the reserve obligation, which would be 3 or 4 years, depending on whether the internship counts against the reserve commitment). Alternatively, you could do the internship and then two years of AD and be done.

 

[NavyFP]

I'm confused about the two or three year payback for two-year Army HSPS scholarships. The Army's HPSP Fact Sheet says: "Your period of military service to the Army is a minimum of two years or one year for each year you receive the HPSP, whichever is longer... For example, after completing internship training, the minimum period of active duty service for medical students is two years."

Post-internship graduate medical education increases your payback period year for year, but the payback for the medical school HPSP scholarship and the post-internship GME run concurrently, so as long as your post-internship GME is two years or fewer, your payback would not increase. Since the internship typically counts as the equivalent of PGY1, it seems you could do a three year Army residency (i.e., an internship plus PGY2 and PGY3) in fields such as internal medicine, peds or emergency medicine, then serve two years on AD, then be done (except for the remainder of the reserve obligation, which would be 3 or 4 years, depending on whether the internship counts against the reserve commitment). Alternatively, you could do the internship and then two years of AD and be done.

Essentially correct. If you complete a military residency in FP/IM/Peds after having a 2 year HPSP, you are done with your active service 2 year after completion of residency payback. You would then have complete 3 years in the reserves (IRR component) and you could then be completely free of the military.

Just as a general review of basic obligations. There are three obligations you incur when you sign an HPSP contract.

1) Training obligation. This requires one year of service not in training for every year of sponsorship. There is a minimum of a 2 year training obligation with HPSP so a 1 year HPSP still equals a 2 year training obligation. You are not paying back this obligation if you are in internship or residency. This is a common misperception. So a 4 year HPSP = 4 year training obligation. 3 year HPSP = 3 year training obligation. Residency payback is concurrent (same time) with the HPSP training obligation.

2) Minimum Active Duty Service Obligation (MSO). This requires you to spend 3 years on active duty. Any time spent on active duty counts. So internship and residency fulfill this obligation. If you have a 2 year HPSP or less and you are given a deferment for Internship/Residency it will mean your MSO will trump the Training obligation and you will spend 3 years on AD when you would suppose owing only 2.

3) Minimum Total Service Obligation. Anyone who joins the military will have at least 8 years of their life tethered to DoD. This time can be spent as active or reserve and the reserve time can be in the Individual Ready Reserve.
There is considerable confusion regarding this obligation. (even at the upper levels of BUMED/BUPERS) Things that are certain: Medical school does not count towards this obligation. It will not begin prior to graduation. If you enter active service as an intern, the clock starts there. Where there is confusion is with deferments. Arguements have been made that the clock on this starts when you are recommissioned to O3, others believe it starts when you enter active service. Of those who count (people who decide if your obligation has been completed) most will say it starts when you enter active duty.

Obligated service is an exceedingly complicated topic. I hope this provides a small insight.

 

[SeminoleFan3]

Essentially correct. If you complete a military residency in FP/IM/Peds after having a 2 year HPSP, you are done with your active service 2 year after completion of residency payback. You would then have complete 3 years in the reserves (IRR component) and you could then be completely free of the military.

Just as a general review of basic obligations. There are three obligations you incur when you sign an HPSP contract.

1) Training obligation. This requires one year of service not in training for every year of sponsorship. There is a minimum of a 2 year training obligation with HPSP so a 1 year HPSP still equals a 2 year training obligation. You are not paying back this obligation if you are in internship or residency. This is a common misperception. So a 4 year HPSP = 4 year training obligation. 3 year HPSP = 3 year training obligation. Residency payback is concurrent (same time) with the HPSP training obligation.

2) Minimum Active Duty Service Obligation (MSO). This requires you to spend 3 years on active duty. Any time spent on active duty counts. So internship and residency fulfill this obligation. If you have a 2 year HPSP or less and you are given a deferment for Internship/Residency it will mean your MSO will trump the Training obligation and you will spend 3 years on AD when you would suppose owing only 2.

3) Minimum Total Service Obligation. Anyone who joins the military will have at least 8 years of their life tethered to DoD. This time can be spent as active or reserve and the reserve time can be in the Individual Ready Reserve.
There is considerable confusion regarding this obligation. (even at the upper levels of BUMED/BUPERS) Things that are certain: Medical school does not count towards this obligation. It will not begin prior to graduation. If you enter active service as an intern, the clock starts there. Where there is confusion is with deferments. Arguements have been made that the clock on this starts when you are recommissioned to O3, others believe it starts when you enter active service. Of those who count (people who decide if your obligation has been completed) most will say it starts when you enter active duty.

Obligated service is an exceedingly complicated topic. I hope this provides a small insight.

Quick question...say you have a residency in a 3 yr program, do internship, head off to GMO land for a 2 yr tour, then finish the last 2 yrs of residency with. 4 yr HPSP deal. Do you owe 2 yrs after residency?

 

[henge]

Thanks NavyFP. It seems my confusion arose from the independent 3 year MSO obligation, but that would really matter only for someone who did not do a military internship, which I believe is rare.

 

[NavyFP]

Quick question...say you have a residency in a 3 yr program, do internship, head off to GMO land for a 2 yr tour, then finish the last 2 yrs of residency with. 4 yr HPSP deal. Do you owe 2 yrs after residency?

Yes. And 2 years later you would be able to leave active service and owe 1 year to the IRR.

 

[vamedrnr]

I couldn't find this anywhere else -the question above about the signing bonus, when does the 4 years start? I am one of the prior service folks for whom the 2 year HPSP makes sense. But I want to keep my ADSO as short as possible to either leave or use for negotiating purposes (duty station, schools, etc). The language on the 4 year bonus is very vague. It states: "...understand that I will incur a 4-year active duty obligation (ADO) for acceptance of this accession bonus and be required to serve on active duty for 4 years, regardless of the length of my ADO for participation in the HPSP. I further understand that the HPSP (bonus) ADO will be repaid concurrently with my HPSP ADO after I have obtained a license to practice as an independent health care provider." Does anyone know exactly when the start date is for this ADO?

I can see 3 scenarios for what this language means:
1) "active duty" means it starts the moment I swear into active duty post graduation.
2) "independent health care provider" means it starts when I have passed my boards and in the civilian world would be possibly eligible to moonlight, so sometime around year 2-3 in Family Med or EM.
3) "independent health care provider" means it starts after the end of residency.

I am plan on doing FM or EM and like I said, I want to know exactly when this payback starts as I am not going to take $14k for an extra two years but I also don't want to turn down $14k because of my own ignorance. I can't find a specific regulation regarding this other than the USAREC form itself, which as I stated I can read three different ways, so any knowledgable advice would be great. Thanks in advance.

 

[psychbender]

Your service obligation starts being paid when you are no longer in training. If you do internship, immediately followed by FM, you start paying back the day after you graduate residency. If you do a internship, followed by a GMO your, your payback starts when you complete internship.