[2016] VSAS/Away Rotations Thread

[Got Em]

The moderator staff think the work you've done on this thread, and the EM match thread this season, is really great and we have awarded you a $10 amazon gift card for making such helpful posts and thread.

Check your inbox for details and thanks for your contributions to SDN.

Honestly though, @Cinematographer deserves substantially more than a $10 gift card. Thank you for the time you've put in on this forum.

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[gutonc]

Honestly though, @Cinematographer deserves substantially more than a $10 gift card. Thank you for the time you've put in on this forum.

Agreed. But that's all I've got so it will have to do.

 

[lunalight]

@gutonc As I said via PM, thank you. Just giving back to the community after all the helpful advice I received on here last year.

Let's keep this thread going!

Agreed, appreciate all the work you've put into this @Cinematographer!

As far as keeping the thread going...Can we discuss the "declining VSAS invitation = burning bridges" issue? I keep reading people say that they heard it was rude to do that. Do we have any PDs or people involved in the residency application process that could weigh in on things like: applying to multiple rotations for the same month, declining an invite when its initially offered, or declining an invite after initially accepting (because heard back from preferred program)?

 

[Cinematographer]

@lunalight, I had to turn down two rotation offers, and went about it by sending each program an email with more or less the message below:

To: Clerkship Coordinator

Dear xxxx xxxx,

My name is @Cinematographer, senior medical student at BMS. I applied for an externship at the program this month/last month and was notified recently via VSAS of your invitation to rotate at your emergency department. Unfortunately, my fourth year rotation schedule has changed since the initial submission of this application, preventing me from auditioning at the program. These new scheduling arrangements were beyond my control, so please do not interpret me declining your invitation as a lack on interest in the program. ​

Respectfully,

@Cinematographer, MSIV
Best Medical School, MD Candidate
___________

Both programs later invited me to interview with them. With that said, it would be nice to here faculty's input on this.

 

[rollingstone27]

I've decided on EM a little later than most and I'm in the process of applying for away rotations. My goal is to match in southern california and it seems like I'm already late in the game. Anyone else in a similar situation and just now going through VSAS? Would obtaining an away at a not-so-reputable program outside of california significantly decrease my chances of matching there?

 

[onlyletters]

I've decided on EM a little later than most and I'm in the process of applying for away rotations. My goal is to match in southern california and it seems like I'm already late in the game. Anyone else in a similar situation and just now going through VSAS? Would obtaining an away at a not-so-reputable program outside of california significantly decrease my chances of matching there?

Not necessarily.

There's a lot that goes into your application. Do you already have ties to California? Are you a competitive candidate with regards to 3rd year clerkships and Step score? Are you going to honor or just pass your away at the not-so-reputable program?

No matter your answers to the questions above, it will help you match on the west coast if you do your away rotations in California.

If you're a mediocre candidate from the east coast that gets aways outside of California, you'd be ridiculously lucky to even get an interview at a southern California program.

 

[WildEMDoc]

So I've got 1 away date set, I was told I only need 1 based on my app.

But would it be stupid to do another because I have no idea what part of the country I really want to go to? haha

 

[doggydog]

Didn't you make a thread about this already?

 

[KinesiologyNerd]

I've decided on EM a little later than most and I'm in the process of applying for away rotations. My goal is to match in southern california and it seems like I'm already late in the game. Anyone else in a similar situation and just now going through VSAS? Would obtaining an away at a not-so-reputable program outside of california significantly decrease my chances of matching there?

Probably not tremendously helpful, but you also can't match anywhere without SLOEs.

 

[rollingstone27]

yeah I figured that an away in california is ideal but an away, period, is the priority. Doesn't seem like there are readily available success stories.

Another point of clarification regarding VSAS fees, especially since the UCs list $300. Will that be charged only by the schools that offer you a spot, or charged once your application has been looked at, regardless of acceptance or rejection?

 

[KinesiologyNerd]

yeah I figured that an away in california is ideal but an away, period, is the priority. Doesn't seem like there are readily available success stories.

Another point of clarification regarding VSAS fees, especially since the UCs list $300. Will that be charged only by the schools that offer you a spot, or charged once your application has been looked at, regardless of acceptance or rejection?

If offered a spot.

 

[lunalight]

@lunalight, I had to turn down two rotation offers, and went about it by sending each program an email with more or less the message below:

To: Clerkship Coordinator

Dear xxxx xxxx,
.

My name is @Cinematographer, senior medical student at BMS. I applied for an externship at the program this month/last month and was notified recently via VSAS of your invitation to rotate at your emergency department. Unfortunately, my fourth year rotation schedule has changed since the initial submission of this application, preventing me from auditioning at the program. These new scheduling arrangements were beyond my control, so please do not interpret me declining your invitation as a lack on interest in the program. .​

Respectfully,

@Cinematographer, MSIV
Best Medical School, MD Candidate.
___________

Both programs later invited me to interview with them. With that said, it would be nice to here faculty's input on this.

Thanks! Yeah, I'd like their input too. I've already scheduled my aways, so it's not so much for me as it is for others in the future who read this. I felt like that this was one question I had that had very inconsistent answers and most were just "I heard that...."

My approach was about the same as yours for the offer I declined, but I have a classmate that is considering declining/dropping an away they already scheduled. I guess they didn't anticipate how expensive it was going to be and got an offer from another program that suits them better. So I'm sure there are many others that are/will be interested to know more about the whole "burning bridges" theory.


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[KinesiologyNerd]

I've already scheduled my aways

Damn you people who already have this done. I have 1 "under review", 1 "pending review", and 1 yet to open.

Anecdotally (ish): a PD at residency fair told me like anything else if you don't anger his coordinator on your way out they won't hold it against you.

 

[doggydog]

Damn you people who already have this done. I have 1 "under review", 1 "pending review", and 1 yet to open.

Anecdotally (ish): a PD at residency fair told me like anything else if you don't anger his coordinator on your way out they won't hold it against you.

'Pending review' at 2 places, 'under review' at 2 places. Not a sound.

 

[lunalight]

Damn you people who already have this done. I have 1 "under review", 1 "pending review", and 1 yet to open.

Anecdotally (ish): a PD at residency fair told me like anything else if you don't anger his coordinator on your way out they won't hold it against you.

Lol, sorry?

Our school was kind enough to get us our tokens at the beginning of Feb, so I was able to get started early.


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[lunalight]

Once it's "under review" you'll get an email (eventually) with a decision.


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[Frazier]

I have 5 apps pending/under review for the month of July.
Just keep shuffling along.
If I didn't already have the 2 other periods filled, I'm sure I'd be more anxious.

Looking forward to new lands.

 

[doggydog]

Has anyone ever gotten off a wait list for one of these rotations?

 

[Yraqi]

Yes, it's possible to get off the wait list.

 

[rollingstone27]

I'm looking at a couple schools which open up for submission in the beginning of May, one of which requires of letter of recommendation. I've also heard that spots may close up as fast as 1-2 days after opening. Though I plan to have my part submitted the day of, will a later submission date of the LOR put be further back in line?

 

[lunalight]

I'm looking at a couple schools which open up for submission in the beginning of May, one of which requires of letter of recommendation. I've also heard that spots may close up as fast as 1-2 days after opening. Though I plan to have my part submitted the day of, will a later submission date of the LOR put be further back in line?

That's a tough one, I specifically avoided programs that asked for an LOR because 1) ain't nobody got time for that and 2) it's a silly, over-the-top request IMHO.

Email the program and ask what their policy is on this, in the meantime I would try my best to have the LOR submitted by the opening date or as close to it as possible.


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[doggydog]

2 rejections, heard nothing from 3 other programs. Not so sure it's first come/first served anymore as both mentioned their 'competitive pool of applicants'. Or I just was unlucky and picked two that weren't first come/first served.

 

[Cinematographer]

2 rejections, heard nothing from 3 other programs. Not so sure it's first come/first served anymore.

If you want to find out, I would email them and ask. I recall receiving a very unexpected rejection from a program, and it was because I had not uploaded some document that they listed as required on their rotation website (but was never mentioned on their VSAS page).

 

[Frazier]

2 rejections, heard nothing from 3 other programs. Not so sure it's first come/first served anymore as both mentioned their 'competitive pool of applicants'. Or I just was unlucky and picked two that weren't first come/first served.

I don't think it's your fault. I think, just as everything these days, it's getting more competitive... more folks doing aways, more folks submitting more apps... just bogs things down a bit.

Hope you get a bite soon!

 

[EMhopeful2017]

Has anyone rotated or heard anything about the rotation at Penn State?

 

[SalemK]

I feel like as a DO student, I am at somewhat of a disadvantage, based on what the PD's said during that video.

It seems that they all highly value high pass/high honors on 3rd year clerkships, and as I have mentioned before, it is nearly impossible for students at my school to get honors. This is such a problem that our school has finally decided to change the criteria for honors (since less than 2% of students were able to obtain honors), but that won't go into affect until next year. The reason being, some of our preceptors have said that they wouldn't even give 5's to residents on a rotation, let alone a medical student. So, when the criteria to get honors are to BOTH, get a 4.8/5 on your eval AND have over a 110 COMAT score (very hard to do), it becomes virtually impossible.

The sad thing is, the school recognized that this would hurt our chances if students decided to do ACGME (but, since their primary concern is training a bunch of primary care/family physicians, and would prefer for them to do AOA or just match, they didn't address this and obviously gave false information, such as downplaying the importance of Step I and II and saying that many many schools soley accept the COMLEX).

Now, I wasn't naive enough to believe that and took step I (220's) and plan on taking step II, but, after watching those videos, I can't help but feel disheartened because my 3rd year clerkship grades are all P (pass).

I am hoping that my auditions can compensate for that.

I could have written this myself. Same situation, same Step 1 score, same ongoing anxiety, except my school gives the NBME shelf exams and we need a 4.8/5 on evals PLUS 80th percentile on the shelf for honors. I somehow managed honors for IM and a high pass for surgery and just a pass for everything else, all of which were heartbreakingly close (i.e., a 48th percentile on the shelf when I need at least a 50th for high pass). It sucks to be thrown in with people who got crappy evals and barely passed the shelf. FWIW, I was in the top 25% of the class for the first two years. I cannot understand why my school seems to want us to compare unfavorably to our peers when applying for residency.

Have you had any luck securing sub-Is? I've had a few rejections and a whole lot of radio silence, and I'm starting to wonder if I'm deeply screwed.

 

[IH8ColdWeath3r]

I could have written this myself. Same situation, same Step 1 score, same ongoing anxiety, except my school gives the NBME shelf exams and we need a 4.8/5 on evals PLUS 80th percentile on the shelf for honors. I somehow managed honors for IM and a high pass for surgery and just a pass for everything else, all of which were heartbreakingly close (i.e., a 48th percentile on the shelf when I need at least a 50th for high pass). It sucks to be thrown in with people who got crappy evals and barely passed the shelf. FWIW, I was in the top 25% of the class for the first two years. I cannot understand why my school seems to want us to compare unfavorably to our peers when applying for residency.

Have you had any luck securing sub-Is? I've had a few rejections and a whole lot of radio silence, and I'm starting to wonder if I'm deeply screwed.

I have two auditions, one of them is at a pretty good institution, the other not so much. But I have been rejected by a few programs as well. I just keep applying and hope for the best. I know that if I am lucky to secure 4 auditions, that wherever I rotate, will see my work ethic and passion for EM that is not reflective of my clerkship grades or pre-clinical grades. But yes, I am definitely nervous too. I woulds say don't get discouraged and continue applying. Some places don't get back to you until just a month or two until the start of the rotation and hope for the best.

Also, I did not do as well as you in my pre-clinical grades. During first year, I was mostly and A & B student and our curriculum was extremely well taught and and also relevant. I was the top half of my class at the time. Second year, the people who lectured to us were clinicians from the community and they each taught in a way that was geared toward OMS-III (what is the next best step, clinical criteria, management), which is fine if you are an OMS-III but not when you are an OMS-II. How can I work up a thyroid nodule when I haven't even learned the difference between Grave's disease, Hashimoto's, and Medullary carcinoma of the thyroid? Basically, it was anything but basic science and virtually all clinical, when we had not been taught the basic science of it. This may seem minuscule but it wasn't. It inadequately prepared our class for the boards. Sure, we had over a 97% pass rate, and our Step I avg was a 229 which is comparable with an MD school (and we had several people break 250's and 260's), but this is the exception and not the rule. Those people worked extremely hard to study boards yearlong while essentially cramming the 2nd year curriculum (because it wasn't geared towards boards). IMO, this is really counterproductive. It made it hard to adequately manage school studying and board studying. I remember feeling happy whenever we had finished a test, just so I could have some room to breath to study for Step I, because the school had done such a poor job of teaching to what was important (we did have two pathologist who recognized this and in every block they would have a few lectures where they hit FA and Pathoma really hard). But that was really our only saving grace.

When my class was surveyed at the beginning of M2, nearly everyone (>90%) of the class said that they would take Step I. However, when the data was collected, a little over 50% did. This wasn't a surprise to me. It took a certain level of diligence to study for the BS OMS-II curriculum, study OMM, prepare for the COMLEX, and diligently get through Uworld+Pathoma+FA and prep adequately for step I. I wish I could post this in undergrad forums for those considering applying to a DO school, and some of the very real roadblocks that exist. Anyway, sorry for the rant/tangent, but I definitely feel you in terms of feeling disheartened at how our schools don't have our best interest in mind. Good luck to you on the interview trail. Keep your head up because it is already an accomplishment to have taken Step I as a DO and done well.

 

[Got Em]

Sorry - posted in wrong thread.

 

[bearstanley]

question- i sent in an application on vsas for 1) august, 2) sept, and 3) late sept- oct for the same institution. i heard back from the program two days later and i was accepted for my third choice, sept-oct. is that too late to be useful? can i email them and ask if it is at all possible to get moved to one of my earlier blocks? i'm starting to stress out about this because i was counting on getting this one for august or sept. i have applied to three other institutions and am under review at all of them. i am just getting really afraid of not being able to find places to rotate at in august and september, my school doesn't have a home EM program.

please advise! i hate this process so much.

 

[doggydog]

question- i sent in an application on vsas for 1) august, 2) sept, and 3) late sept- oct for the same institution. i heard back from the program two days later and i was accepted for my third choice, sept-oct. is that too late to be useful? can i email them and ask if it is at all possible to get moved to one of my earlier blocks? i'm starting to stress out about this because i was counting on getting this one for august or sept. i have applied to three other institutions and am under review at all of them. i am just getting really afraid of not being able to find places to rotate at in august and september, my school doesn't have a home EM program.

please advise! i hate this process so much.

If they accepted you for the third choice it's because they didn't have room for the first two choices.

It's not too late to be useful if you are able to get rotations in August and September. I haven't heard back for those months either and many of my classmates haven't, so probably not time to panic yet.

 

[KinesiologyNerd]

question- i sent in an application on vsas for 1) august, 2) sept, and 3) late sept- oct for the same institution. i heard back from the program two days later and i was accepted for my third choice, sept-oct. is that too late to be useful? can i email them and ask if it is at all possible to get moved to one of my earlier blocks? i'm starting to stress out about this because i was counting on getting this one for august or sept. i have applied to three other institutions and am under review at all of them. i am just getting really afraid of not being able to find places to rotate at in august and september, my school doesn't have a home EM program.

please advise! i hate this process so much.

I mean sure you can email them, but as said above, you were given that slot for a reason. I wouldn't freak out too much with 3 other applications still cooking. I have rotations set up for September and October, but didn't get my home rotation for August if it helps.

 

[doggydog]

I mean sure you can email them, but as said above, you were given that slot for a reason. I wouldn't freak out too much with 3 other applications still cooking. I have rotations set up for September and October, but didn't get my home rotation for August if it helps.

You're lucky you have the two set up.

 

[KinesiologyNerd]

You're lucky you have the two set up.

Eh I mostly just applied to places that make early decisions.

 

[IH8ColdWeath3r]

question- i sent in an application on vsas for 1) august, 2) sept, and 3) late sept- oct for the same institution. i heard back from the program two days later and i was accepted for my third choice, sept-oct. is that too late to be useful? can i email them and ask if it is at all possible to get moved to one of my earlier blocks? i'm starting to stress out about this because i was counting on getting this one for august or sept. i have applied to three other institutions and am under review at all of them. i am just getting really afraid of not being able to find places to rotate at in august and september, my school doesn't have a home EM program.

please advise! i hate this process so much.

It is not too late. Some places haven't even begun processing, or have only made offers for the months of June, July, and rarely August. It is not too late. Also, it is better to submit a complete app with good scores and letters than to rush to get your app in. There is an interesting video on Youtube where Conrad Fischer is being interviewed by another Internal Med PD and they both discuss this at length.

 

[bearstanley]

thanks to all of you for the replies. i am a very, very chill dude IRL but this process is getting the best of me. i am worried that i won't find out from the three places i have applied to until very late in the game and then end up up **** creek in like july with nothing booked for aug / sept. i have had virtually zero help from faculty at my school and it all just seems like an uphill battle to get someone to let me in the ED as a fourth year.

FWIW, i'm a US MD student with a 240 step 1 and mostly P 3rd year rotations.

 

[doggydog]

thanks to all of you for the replies. i am a very, very chill dude IRL but this process is getting the best of me. i am worried that i won't find out from the three places i have applied to until very late in the game and then end up up **** creek in like july with nothing booked for aug / sept. i have had virtually zero help from faculty at my school and it all just seems like an uphill battle to get someone to let me in the ED as a fourth year.

FWIW, i'm a US MD student with a 240 step 1 and mostly P 3rd year rotations.

We are all feeling the same things. Just be patient.

 

[SalemK]

Just wanted to check back in here to say that in the week since I posted saying I was stressed about having no sub-I offers, I have been offered (and accepted) four. I got one tonight after sending a follow-up email Friday afternoon. Hang in there . . . and don't be afraid to reach out.

 

[BlackDynamite]

No rotations yet except for at the program I want to go to plus my home institution. Is an away in November a complete waste of its where you want to match?


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[SalemK]

No rotations yet except for at the program I want to go to plus my home institution. Is an away in November a complete waste of its where you want to match?


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Not at all. I know of several places have a policy that they will interview you while you're rotating there if you have an application in.

 

[Bucks901]

No rotations yet except for at the program I want to go to plus my home institution. Is an away in November a complete waste of its where you want to match?


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Matched at first choice where I did a rotation Oct-Nov. If you needed an additional SLOE from them it probably would come very late and may not help you at all with interviews however if you are just looking to increase face time I think its a great idea.

 

[Yraqi]

Has anyone rotated at Mt Sinai? If so, any thoughts on the rotation? Thanks!

 

[Petypet]

Biggest piece of advice for people next year, a lot of programs offer their spots BEFORE VSAS opens and therefore they use VSAS as a formality, and those that seem to take forever are filling the gaps or empty spots. This is certainly not all programs but I would wager that a majority of the programs offer this. Contact programs a month before VSAS opens to request a spot. I did that with 3/3 of my auditions and got places no one in my school has rarely gotten (b/c DO student).

If you're on time, you're late so to speak.

 

[mega_colon]

Biggest piece of advice for people next year, a lot of programs offer their spots BEFORE VSAS opens and therefore they use VSAS as a formality, and those that seem to take forever are filling the gaps or empty spots. This is certainly not all programs but I would wager that a majority of the programs offer this. Contact programs a month before VSAS opens to request a spot. I did that with 3/3 of my auditions and got places no one in my school has rarely gotten (b/c DO student).

If you're on time, you're late so to speak.

+1, I did the same thing and got both rotations I wanted promptly. Also be aware some schools open earlier than the dates posted on VSAS. So set a vsas alert and have all your paperwork ready months in advance so if a school opens there vsas application early you can get an application in ASAP. The two I applied to opened a full month earlier than what was posted on vsas.

 

[doggydog]

Anecdotally, I did this with three programs. Didn't help at all. Gotta be lucky, I guess.

 

[scoKraz4]

.

 

[IH8ColdWeath3r]

Biggest piece of advice for people next year, a lot of programs offer their spots BEFORE VSAS opens and therefore they use VSAS as a formality, and those that seem to take forever are filling the gaps or empty spots. This is certainly not all programs but I would wager that a majority of the programs offer this. Contact programs a month before VSAS opens to request a spot. I did that with 3/3 of my auditions and got places no one in my school has rarely gotten (b/c DO student).

If you're on time, you're late so to speak.

fa**...I tried to jump the gun so to speak and a few places told me that they were not accepting applications until their indicated VSAS date.

 

[KinesiologyNerd]

"Pending Host Institution Review"

 

[EndersRebutal]

Biggest piece of advice for people next year, a lot of programs offer their spots BEFORE VSAS opens and therefore they use VSAS as a formality, and those that seem to take forever are filling the gaps or empty spots. This is certainly not all programs but I would wager that a majority of the programs offer this. Contact programs a month before VSAS opens to request a spot. I did that with 3/3 of my auditions and got places no one in my school has rarely gotten (b/c DO student).

If you're on time, you're late so to speak.

Wish I had thought to do this. There was one school I really wanted to do an away at. I got all my paper work done months in advanced. I literally hounded the people in student services to get everything signed and notarized. I even pushed my Step 2 to an earlier date so I could fit their schedule. As I was neurotically checking their VSAS page the day before they opened for applications, I noticed that the date I wanted (and the only one that fit my 4th year schedule) was already gone. *sigh*

 

[doggydog]

"Pending Host Institution Review"

Every single app that I have out right now. I wish they would change it to 'under review' so I don't feel so ignored.

 

[bearstanley]

i accepted one in sept and one in oct. still have a few floating around for august. i was really hoping to do 2 total in august and sept but at least i can relax knowing that i have two aways now.

anyone have info on needing a sloe from a rotation that ends towards the end of oct? am i ****ed if i need that for my application?