3.37 cGPA, 2.97sGPA, 505 MCAT

[deleted689863]

Probably should have posted this a while ago, but just wanted to get some feedback in case this cycle doesn't pan out well. I'm an AA female with a 3.4cGPA, 3.0 sGPA, and 505 MCAT. I'm also a non trad. I have the great (mis?)fortune of being a CA resident.

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[WedgeDawg]

What was your school list

Also what were your ECs like

 

[deleted689863]

Didn't even realize I posted this. I was going to wait until the cycle was over, but my computer clearly has a mind of its own, lol. I've done quite a bit of research, largely clinical (in undergrad and for the past year and a half, no publications though), I have clinical experience (free clinics, patient recruitment for research), shadowing, and volunteer work/leadership/service with underserved communities. My school list is as follows:

MD
UC Riverside
UC San Diego
UCLA (PRIME and Drew)
UC Irvine
UC Davis
Albany
Tulane
Northwestern
OUWB
Hofstra
Arizona - Tucson
Rosalind Franklin
OSU
GW
Cooper
Stanford (alma mater)
Baylor
Central Michigan
..I feel like i'm missing a couple but this is off the top of my head

DO
Western University
...and will add others

My school list is unfortunately limited for both financial reasons and because a potential letter writer pulled out last minute. So far, I've received secondaries from everywhere except Irvine. I applied kind of late (mid-July), was verified mid August, and returned nearly all secondaries by early September (though I did just receive the UCR secondary a day ago). No interview invites yet. If I have to reapply, I'm thinking an SMP or postbac will definitely be in order though I don't know which will be most productive for me.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Any particular reason you choose not to apply to Historically Black schools like Howard?

 

[deleted689863]

The only reason is because I could not meet their LOR requirements.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

I honestly would be very surprised if you get interview invitation to any CA school and definitely your Alma mater. However, being a female and URM, some DO schools and MD might be willing to lower their standards to give you a chance. Just add more DOs and lowest tier MD schools.

 

[WedgeDawg]

I honestly would be very surprised if you get interview invitation to any CA school and definitely your Alma mater. However, being a female and URM, some DO schools and MD might be willing to lower their standards to give you a chance. Just add more DOs and lowest tier MD schools.

What a very belittling way for you to say this...

OP, historically, you have around a 75% chance of acceptance based on ethnicity, MCAT, and GPA profile (see Table 25 - AA/Black). However, I would bet that many (though certainly not all) of these successful applicants also included HBCU schools on their list, as they are the target demographic. I would not count yourself out of the cycle yet, and your school list is decent (and coming from Stanford should help at least somewhat), but there is definitely a chance you'll fall through the cracks.

If you want to prepare for the possibility of another cycle, I would continue pursuing whichever of your ECs is most important to you (or whichever is paying you) - as long as you're doing something productive, what you're doing won't matter as you have all your bases covered. I would also try to see if you can get in touch with old professors or whomever you need to in order to fulfill the LOR requirements.

However, no need to panic yet. If you don't have any IIs by the end of December, it'll likely be time to start gearing up for another cycle.

 

[deleted689863]

It's okay. I'm in no way offended. I know that getting into med school is about proving you can handle the work and my low GPA and mediocre MCAT do little to help me out. I know Stanford is by far a reach school. I definitely am adding more DO schools and though the thought of reapplying sounds daunting, but I'm willing to do what it takes. The LOR thing is a long unfortunate story, but I'll see what I can do. Thanks for the advice!

 

[Dr.Smexy]

What a very belittling way for you to say this...

OP, historically, you have around a 75% chance of acceptance based on ethnicity, MCAT, and GPA profile (see Table 25 - AA/Black). However, I would bet that many (though certainly not all) of these successful applicants also included HBCU schools on their list, as they are the target demographic. I would not count yourself out of the cycle yet, and your school list is decent (and coming from Stanford should help at least somewhat), but there is definitely a chance you'll fall through the cracks.

If you want to prepare for the possibility of another cycle, I would continue pursuing whichever of your ECs is most important to you (or whichever is paying you) - as long as you're doing something productive, what you're doing won't matter as you have all your bases covered. I would also try to see if you can get in touch with old professors or whomever you need to in order to fulfill the LOR requirements.

However, no need to panic yet. If you don't have any IIs by the end of December, it'll likely be time to start gearing up for another cycle.

Sorry to come off that way. I'm curious though, how would you phrase the fact that medical schools accept URM applicants with lower stats than their average much more often than ORM? Maybe there is a diplomatic way to say it and I'm willing to learn so that I don't offend anyone by stating the fact too bluntly.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Sorry to come off that way. I'm curious though, how would you phrase the fact that medical schools accept URM applicants with lower stats than their average much more often than ORM? Maybe there is a diplomatic way to say it and I'm willing to learn so that I don't offend anyone by stating the fact too bluntly.

Simple avoid phrases like "schools lowering their standards for you". It's fine to acknowledge URM's are at a significant advantage in the process. We don't have to pretend that's not the case. It's just there's a way of saying that without being offensive and the way you phrased it is not "avoiding being offensive". Lowering their standards is not the phrasing you were looking for.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Sorry to come off that way. I'm curious though, how would you phrase the fact that medical schools accept URM applicants with lower stats than their average much more often than ORM? Maybe there is a diplomatic way to say it and I'm willing to learn so that I don't offend anyone by stating the fact too bluntly.

Certain groups of people (defined by ethnicity, SES, sexual orientation, etc) have societal pressures placed upon them such that they are at a disadvantage compared to other groups. This means that their baseline level of performance in certain areas is lower than the non-disadvantaged groups due to factors that are largely outside of their control, so even if the change in performance over time is equal to or greater than the non-disadvantaged groups, the final result may be less.

In a certainly less-than-perfect MCAT-based analogy, a lesbian black female applicant who lives with her single mother in low income city housing with her two brothers, due to the societal pressures of being LGBT, black, female, economically disadvantaged, and growing up in a single-parent household, may be "starting" college with an MCAT score of 16. However, she works very hard, studies a lot, and by the time she finally takes her MCAT, she ends up with a 27. That is an 11 point gain.

In contrast, let's take white, upper middle class male student whose parents are both Ivy League graduates (one is a cardiologist, the other a patent attorney) and has one older brother, both of whom attended Exeter. This applicant, because of the advantages afforded to him by having a wealthy and stable family and attending a top-notch private high school, as well as having been enrolled in private schools since preschool, "starts" college with an MCAT score of 25. He goes to college and does well. When he finally takes the MCAT, he manages a 35. That is a 10 point gain.

We see that even though the second applicant has a higher final score, the first applicant has a greater "increase" in score over the same period of time. These scores do not exist in a vacuum, and medical schools know it. They are ultimately looking for aptitude and potential, and having someone who has a high point gain, particularly when facing heavy adversity, is very valuable to them, because that potential can be utilized to generate a great physician. This doesn't mean that either applicant is "better" than the other (the second applicant has a great score and will likely get into a medical school), just that the starting points are different (again, initial conditions are not created by the applicants in either situation), and thus the end points, given similar rates of change, are likely to be different as well, so that has to be taken into account.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

Simple avoid phrases like "schools lowering their standards for you". It's fine to acknowledge URM's are at a significant advantage in the process. We don't have to pretend that's not the case. It's just there's a way of saying that without being offensive and the way you phrased it is not "avoiding being offensive".

Ahh the good old political correctness, I'm still working on that part since I'm a straight shooter especially when it comes to giving the fact.However, I promise I'll continue to improve on avoiding hard truth statements

 

[GrapesofRath]

Both h

Ahh the good old political correctness, I'm still working on that part since I'm a straight shooter especially when it comes to giving the fact.However, I promise I'll continue to improve on avoiding hard truth statements

I mean you pretty much missed the point entirely but ok. Anyway, don't really have any desire to start a weekly AA flame war here. I tend to be in the minority in SDN where I don't really support how AA is used in medical school admission purposes but if you want to argue your greviances about the process this is not the thread to do it on or the people to do it with.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

Certain groups of people (defined by ethnicity, SES, sexual orientation, etc) have societal pressures placed upon them such that they are at a disadvantage compared to other groups. This means that their baseline level of performance in certain areas is lower than the non-disadvantaged groups due to factors that are largely outside of their control, so even if the change in performance over time is equal to or greater than the non-disadvantaged groups, the final result may be less.

In a certainly less-than-perfect MCAT-based analogy, a lesbian black female applicant who lives with her single mother in low income city housing with her two brothers, due to the societal pressures of being LGBT, black, female, economically disadvantaged, and growing up in a single-parent household, may be "starting" college with an MCAT score of 16. However, she works very hard, studies a lot, and by the time she finally takes her MCAT, she ends up with a 27. That is an 11 point gain.

In contrast, let's take white, upper middle class male student whose parents are both Ivy League graduates (one is a cardiologist, the other a patent attorney) and has one older brother, both of whom attended Exeter. This applicant, because of the advantages afforded to him by having a wealthy and stable family and attending a top-notch private high school, as well as having been enrolled in private schools since preschool, "starts" college with an MCAT score of 25. He goes to college and does well. When he finally takes the MCAT, he manages a 35. That is a 10 point gain.

We see that even though the second applicant has a higher final score, the first applicant has a greater "increase" in score over the same period of time. These scores do not exist in a vacuum, and medical schools know it. They are ultimately looking for aptitude and potential, and having someone who has a high point gain, particularly when facing heavy adversity, is very valuable to them, because that potential can be utilized to generate a great physician. This doesn't mean that either applicant is "better" than the other (the second applicant has a great score and will likely get into a medical school), just that the starting points are different (again, initial conditions are not created by the applicants in either situation), and thus the end points, given similar rates of change, are likely to be different as well, so that has to be taken into account.

That was a long answer with the good old scenarios that people always paint for URM. Eveyrthing you said about the URM in this post can be apply to White and Asian. The scenarios of the "white, upper middle class" can also be applied to Black. You didn't even answer my question with that very long post! Anyway, let's not diverge into a racial debate and get back to the OP question.

 

[WedgeDawg]

That was a long answer with the good old scenarios that people always paint for URM. Eveyrthing you said about the URM in this post can be apply to White and Asian. The scenarios of the "white, upper middle class" can also be applied to Black. You didn't even answer my question with that very long post! Anyway, let's not diverge into a racial debate and get back to the OP question.

Racism (personal and structural) exists even if you're the president of the US. SES is only a small part of the equation. I used a hyperbolic example for clarity purposes.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

I mean you pretty much missed the point but ok

I think I got your point but if you think I missed it, that's fine

 

[Dr.Smexy]

Racism (personal and structural) exists even if you're the president of the US. SES is only a small part of the equation. I used a hyperbolic example for clarity purposes.

I did and c'mon, you editted your answer haha

 

[Dr.Smexy]

C'mon guys, I asked a question and one of you answered which I appreciated but don't put assumptions and words in my mouth like "you want to argue your greviances about the process this is not the thread to do it on or the people to do it with."

 

[WedgeDawg]

I did and c'mon, you editted your answer haha

When my post went through, I saw you responded to my previous post, so what I said was no longer pertinent, so I edited my response to keep the conversation moving forward.

C'mon guys, I asked a question and one of you answer which I appreciated but don't put assumptions and words in my mouth like "you want to argue your greviances about the process this is not the thread to do it on or the people to do it with."

I think grapes answered you pretty well in his first post. The point of my long post was that med schools aren't necessarily looking for outcome, they're looking for growth potential, which may manifest as different outcomes if you have different initial conditions. Thus, it isn't sensical to say "lowering standards" when the standards you think are lower aren't even the standards that are of the utmost value.

 

[GrapesofRath]

For the OP everyone's favorite AAMC chart that is always referred to on this site will show that 75% of African American applicants with your stats who have applied to MD schools have gotten an acceptance.

However, your situation complicates things a little bit for a variety of reasons
a) There is a pretty big gap between your cGPA and your sGPA. In particular, your sGPA being below a 3.0 is problematic. That complicates things. If we calculate your GPA as if you are in the 3-3.2 range, well only 58% of AA applicants with your stats found an acceptance letter.
b) As the 'Dawg and others have mentioned above, you didn't really apply to historically Black medical colleges which is where your odds would have been by far and way the strongest at. To provide some perspective, over the past 2 years, 2,856 blacks were accepted to medical school. Round that out to around 1400 a year. Now, I don't know all the HBMC's off the top of my head but here are a few.
UCLA Drew: 24 matriculants
Howard: 117 matriculants
Morehouse: 78 matriculants
Meharry: 105 matriculants

That's about 320 matriculants right there. Let's assume for hypothetical sake 80% of those are black at those schools. So that's around 250 matriculants. Let's also assume I forgot to include 1-2 schools with a strong preference for African Americans. Let's say now that's another 100 African American matriculants. So all in all that's 350 matriculants who are black at schools with a mission towards them(again these are all hypothetical numbers, the exact figures aren't important). So as you can see 1/4 right there are going to schools which you didn't apply to. On top of this, many many African Americans go to their state programs. Unfortunately, being a CA resident doesn't give you state programs with lower median stats than the average MD school. It's impossible to calculate how many URMs go to State U's with say 3.6/29 type medians or State U's with median stats below normal, but it probably is a fair number. So all of this complicates the discussion for how to try to estimate your chances. You still definitely have a shot, but as you can see applying the AAMC chart is more complicated in your situation.

As for your list UCLA Drew is obviously a good choice. UC Riverside if you are from the IE is a good choice. I don't know enough about the track record of how many AA's UCLA Prime, UC Irvine and UCSD take and what not, so it's hard for me to comment there. Albany, Oakland, U of Arizona, Rosalind, GW are also good choices. Tulane and Hofstra might be worth a flyer. These other schools like Northwestern, Ohio State OOS, Stanford, Baylor, Central Michigan OOS will be very tough. So I count maybe 8 schools you have a shot at a II for. Not great, but not impossible.

Now for DO programs the discussion changes. You are very competitive for them. Indeed it is a good idea to keep adding them over the next month or two. You are very likely to have a number of II's lined up for them. If you can interview decently, I don't think you'll have to worry about being some re-applicant with a decent DO list.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

When my post went through, I saw you responded to my previous post, so what I said was no longer pertinent, so I edited my response to keep the conversation moving forward.



I think grapes answered you pretty well in his first post. The point of my long post was that med schools aren't necessarily looking for outcome, they're looking for growth potential, which may manifest as different outcomes if you have different initial conditions. Thus, it isn't sensical to say "lowering standards" when the standards you think are lower aren't even the standards that are of the utmost value.

Let just say, I appreciate your perspective now, I won't say anything else with the hope that this thread will be back on the topic that the OP wants.

 

[deleted689863]

For the OP everyone's favorite AAMC chart that is always referred to on this site will show that 75% of African American applicants with your stats who have applied to MD schools have gotten an acceptance.

However, your situation complicates things a little bit for a variety of reasons
a) There is a pretty big gap between your cGPA and your sGPA. In particular, your sGPA being below a 3.0 is problematic. That complicates things. If we calculate your GPA as if you are in the 3-3.2 range, well only 58% of AA applicants with your stats found an acceptance letter.
b) As the 'Dawg and others have mentioned above, you didn't really apply to historically Black medical colleges which is where your odds would have been by far and way the strongest at. To provide some perspective, over the past 2 years, 2,856 blacks were accepted to medical school. Round that out to around 1400 a year. Now, I don't know all the HBMC's off the top of my head but here are a few.
UCLA Drew: 24 matriculants
Howard: 117 matriculants
Morehouse: 78 matriculants
Meharry: 105 matriculants

That's about 320 matriculants right there. Let's assume for hypothetical sake 80% of those are black at those schools. So that's around 250 matriculants. Let's also assume I forgot to include 1-2 schools with a strong preference for African Americans. Let's say now that's another 100 African American matriculants. So all in all that's 350 matriculants who are black at schools with a mission towards them(again these are all hypothetical numbers, the exact figures aren't important). So as you can see 1/4 right there are going to schools which you didn't apply to. On top of this, many many African Americans go to their state programs. Unfortunately, being a CA resident doesn't give you state programs with lower median stats than the average MD school. It's impossible to calculate how many URMs go to State U's with say 3.6/29 type medians or State U's with median stats below normal, but it probably is a fair number. So all of this complicates the discussion for how to try to estimate your chances. You still definitely have a shot, but as you can see applying the AAMC chart is more complicated in your situation.

As for your list UCLA Drew is obviously a good choice. UC Riverside if you are from the IE is a good choice. I don't know enough about the track record of how many AA's UCLA Prime, UC Irvine and UCSD take and what not, so it's hard for me to comment there. Albany, Oakland, U of Arizona, Rosalind, GW are also good choices. Tulane and Hofstra might be worth a flyer. These other schools like Northwestern, Ohio State OOS, Stanford, Baylor, Central Michigan OOS will be very tough. So I count maybe 8 schools you have a shot at a II for. Not great, but not impossible.

Now for DO programs the discussion changes. You are very competitive for them. Indeed it is a good idea to keep adding them over the next month or two. You are very likely to have a number of II's lined up for them. If you can interview decently, I don't think you'll have to worry about being some re-applicant with a decent DO list.

Thanks! I agree that the gap between my cGPA and sGPA will be seen as a red flag on top of already low stats. I will definitely continue adding DO schools. I'm not expecting much from this cycle, so we'll see how this thing plays out. I don't have a problem going to a DO school at all, but I've been asking myself, is it worth it to do an SMP or postbacc to ultimately go the MD route?

 

[Dr.Smexy]

Thanks! I agree that the gap between my cGPA and sGPA will be seen as a red flag on top of already low stats. I will definitely continue adding DO schools. I'm not expecting much from this cycle, so we'll see how this thing plays out. I don't have a problem going to a DO school at all, but I've been asking myself, is it worth it to do an SMP or postbacc to ultimately go the MD route?

Depends on your goal, if your vision of the future is to be a well known plastic surgeon, dermatologist, or cardiothoracic surgeon then the answer is yes. If you just want to be a physician then it will be a big waste of time and money.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Thanks! I agree that the gap between my cGPA and sGPA will be seen as a red flag on top of already low stats. I will definitely continue adding DO schools. I'm not expecting much from this cycle, so we'll see how this thing plays out. I don't have a problem going to a DO school at all, but I've been asking myself, is it worth it to do an SMP or postbacc to ultimately go the MD route?

Well what I'll say is if you do decide that you want to go all in for the MD I would withdraw my DO applications at some point or another. What you do not want is to get a DO acceptance turn it down and try again next cycle. You've basically blacklisted yourself from DO programs in the future doing this and hedging all your eggs in the MD basket. And considering under this situation, you would be an MD re-applicant, that's not all that great of a position to intentionally put yourself into.

For MD it is quite simple raising your GPA will do the trick. SMP's are all well and good and if you weren't a URM I would advise you to do one. But given your circumstances, even a year of post-bacc work, DIY or formal style, that raises your sGPA to say 3.2-3.25 territory and gives you an upward trend would be a big boost to your app. If you could pull this off, and apply with a 3.5/3.2 on an upward trend and 505 to HBMC's, your odds of finding an acceptance letter would be rather favorable

Others will probably disagree and that's fine, but I'm not a big fan of making yourself take a major risk like an SMP is if you don't have to, particularly when they are so expensive. In your shoes, I think a strong year of DIY type post-bacc work if you become a re-applicant and if you apply to HBMC's next cycle would do the trick just fine.

 

[deleted689863]

My vision for the future is different, but I do have some things to consider. Thanks all for the great advice!