3.55/499 HYP Grad

[GrapesofRath]

The average sat at vandy is very high (2200+). If she is producing lower scores than other schools with comparable student bodies, something must be lacking in the education.

Looking at the graph distribution in the link it just looks like the number of people who got above a 36 type score last year was not very high at Vanderbilt. That's probably the single biggest reason for their average being low. Have at that as you want in terms of conclusions. For 2013 and 2014 it doesn't look like there are a lot of low MCAT score applicants from Vandy. For 2012 interestingly enough there seemed to be alot of low MCAT score applicants. 40/57 people who applied last year with a 30 or less had under a 3.5. Of note 57/189 applicants from Vandy didn't hit above 30. For WashU and their 33 MCAT median of applicants, 220/1187 got under a 30. I wouldn't consider that a small difference between WashU and Vandy.

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[ZedsDed]

It'd be strange to see rigorous universities employing a memorization-heavy route for teaching prereqs. Rather, I'd expect intense critical analysis skills for concepts that are much, much harder than those covered in the MCAT.



Even if it is a barely passing grade (say at least a C), it'd be expected for them to score a 31 at the minimum. A 31 average means that numerous premeds from top schools were scoring 30 (optimistically speaking) or in the 20s. That contradicts the high SAT/ACT scores needed to get into the undergrads in the first place.

The proof is in the pudding. Data trumps prestige. What else can you surmise about a school that has a very intelligent student body (who are all whizzes at standardized test-taking btw) and access to a large amount of resources?

 

[ZedsDed]

Looking at the graph distribution in the link it just looks like the number of people who got above a 36 type score last year was not very high at Vanderbilt. That's probably the single biggest reason for their average being low. Have at that as you want in terms of conclusions. For 2013 and 2014 it doesn't look like there are a lot of low MCAT score applicants from Vandy. For 2012 interestingly enough there seemed to be alot of low MCAT score applicants.

Even with a tight cluster, I think you can still draw my previous conclusions.

 

[ZedsDed]

40/57 people who applied last year with a 30 or less had under a 3.5. Of note 57/189 applicants from Vandy didn't hit above 30. For WashU and their 33 MCAT median of applicants, 220/1187 got under a 30. I wouldn't consider that a small difference between WashU and Vandy.

Neither would I.

 

[Lawpy]

The proof is in the pudding. Data trumps prestige. What else can you surmise about a school that has a very intelligent student body (who are all whizzes at standardized test-taking btw) and access to a large amount of resources?

It's just really counterintuitive. People who did well on SAT/ACT to get into top undergrads are expected to do well on the MCAT. Since the reported MCAT averages at these top schools are lower than expected, really the source of these problems are:

1. The education quality is flawed in some way
2. Too many premeds who got weeded out by prereqs decide to take the MCAT anyways
3. The SAT/ACT statistics of undergrads are exaggerated (like superscoring, throwing out poor attempts, averaging all best attempts etc.)

I don't think #1 is the issue since those who attend top undergrads are expected to navigate their own ways through and do well. #2 is the issue and exaggerated anxiety of doing well on tests led to catastrophic results. And #3 is self-explanatory.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Even with a tight cluster, I think you can still draw my previous conclusions.

Yeah I don't really no what to make of it one way or the other haha I was just pointing out what I saw from the distribution of the graph. You have about 31% of people who apply to medical school from Vandy who got a 30 or lower. About 18% of people from WashU apply with under a 30.

Looking at the distribution for other schools for Emory only 29/171(18%) people applied last year with under a 30. I don't hear Emory's name thrown around with the same grade deflation talk you hear about Vandy although it's certainly not some easy school either. Only 27/139 from UCLA applied with under a 30 last year. Just to give a baseline reference when talking about stats for a much less competitive school, for James Madison only 95/221 applicants even applied with over a 28.

Now what I find interesting is that for Cornell 270/1066(26%) of applicants applied last year with less than a 30. The caveat here is that this doesn't include URMs. My guess is that number would go up a couple percent if you include URMs. Cornell is another school where you hear alot about for grade deflation. So perhaps, there isn't as strong a correlation between grade deflation and MCAT scores as you might think? I honestly don't know the answer to this question, but based off this small sample size of UCLA, Emory, Cornell, Vandy and WashU I don't see a tight correlation between grade deflation and MCAT scores. And to even build off that you could bring in our conversation Saturday about how the average MCAT score of applicants from Harvard and Yale is in the 35-36 range which many people on this site will argue are schools with grade inflation.

 

[efle]

Looking at the graph distribution in the link it just looks like the number of people who got above a 36 type score last year was not very high at Vanderbilt. That's probably the single biggest reason for their average being low. Have at that as you want in terms of conclusions. For 2013 and 2014 it doesn't look like there are a lot of low MCAT score applicants from Vandy. For 2012 interestingly enough there seemed to be alot of low MCAT score applicants. 40/57 people who applied last year with a 30 or less had under a 3.5. Of note 57/189 applicants from Vandy didn't hit above 30. For WashU and their 33 MCAT median of applicants, 220/1187 got under a 30. I wouldn't consider that a small difference between WashU and Vandy.

Source for 33 median?

 

[md-2020]

The average applicant from my UG has a 34. The average "traditional" applicant (ie junior applying for the first time) has a 35.5. Very few people score under 30, you hear about 3.3/40 but not 4.0/25.

Vandy's stats (MCAT and average acceptance rate to MD school) are most definitely both low for its caliber of institution. Reasons unknown, but its unfair to speculate on the quality of education at Vandy, which I'm sure is excellent (and I've been told quite difficult too!).

 

[GrapesofRath]

Source for 33 median?

I meant 33-35 not 33. Although as a side note given their distribution in the stats I would be shocked if the actual median wasn't a 33.

 

[efle]

I meant 33-35 not 33.

Damn I've been trying to find more than bin data forever

 

[GrapesofRath]

Damn I've been trying to find more than bin data forever

Well we can at least extrapolate to a decent extent if you really are dying to know more. 553 out of 1187 who apply(that's 46.5%) have a 32 or under. The median person to apply from WashU would be person 594 out of 1187 or so. So we're basically trying to account for those additional 41 people. Considering the group of people who have a 33-35 is 346, I would be shocked if the median wasn't a 33. That would basically mean more than 305/346 people in the 33-35 range have a 34 or 35. Not exactly perfect confirmation but it's a reasonable guess.

 

[efle]

Well we can at least extrapolate to a decent extent if you really are dying to know more. 553 out of 1187 who apply(that's 46.5%) have a 32 or under. The median person to apply from WashU would be person 594 out of 1187 or so. So we're basically trying to account for those additional 41 people. Considering the group of people who have a 33-35 is 346, I would be shocked if the median wasn't a 33. That would basically mean more than 305/346 people in the 33-35 range have a 34 or 35. Not exactly perfect confirmation but it's a reasonable guess.

Ooh good thinking. Now is there a disproportionately fatter left or right tail or is the average going to be close to 33 as well

 

[ZedsDed]

It's just really counterintuitive. People who did well on SAT/ACT to get into top undergrads are expected to do well on the MCAT. Since the reported MCAT averages at these top schools are lower than expected, really the source of these problems are:

1. The education quality is flawed in some way
2. Too many premeds who got weeded out by prereqs decide to take the MCAT anyways
3. The SAT/ACT statistics of undergrads are exaggerated (like superscoring, throwing out poor attempts, averaging all best attempts etc.)

I don't think #1 is the issue since those who attend top undergrads are expected to navigate their own ways through and do well. #2 is the issue and exaggerated anxiety of doing well on tests led to catastrophic results. And #3 is self-explanatory.

1) I think you overestimate the independence of students. The majority of students are not going to recognize flaws in their education, let alone seek out resources to supplement it. A flawed education is the only systematic explanation that makes sense. And "reputation" is pretty irrelevant when we have data to dispel our preconceived notions.

2) In order for this to be true, a majority of people from vandy taking the mcat should have been weeded out, this seems like a stretch.

3) That's interesting, but we have no way of knowing if Vandy does this.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Ooh good thinking. Now is there a disproportionately fatter left or right tail or is the average going to be close to 33 as well

Well you have about 290 people a year who apply with a 36 or higher. 225 or so with below a 30. Roughly even amount of 30-32 and 33-35. My guess is the average will probably be a 33, maybe slightly higher and closer to 34.

 

[ZedsDed]

The average applicant from my UG has a 34. The average "traditional" applicant (ie junior applying for the first time) has a 35.5. Very few people score under 30, you hear about 3.3/40 but not 4.0/25.

Vandy's stats (MCAT and average acceptance rate to MD school) are most definitely both low for its caliber of institution. Reasons unknown, but its unfair to speculate on the quality of education at Vandy, which I'm sure is excellent (and I've been told quite difficult too!).

You guys are insulated up there at the top haha. State schools are all subject to judgement based on the scores they produce, I see no reason why Vandy should be treated differently

 

[GrapesofRath]

1) I think you overestimate the independence of students. The majority of students are not going to recognize flaws in their education, let alone seek out resources to supplement it. A flawed education is the only systematic explanation that makes sense. And "reputation" is pretty irrelevant when we have data to dispel our preconceived notions.

2) In order for this to be true, a majority of people from vandy taking the mcat should have been weeded out, this seems like a stretch.

3) That's interesting, but we have no way of knowing if Vandy does this.

Pretty sure almost every undergrad top tier school superscores the SAT and even more so when reporting their average stats .

 

[Lawpy]

Pretty sure almost every undergrad top tier school superscores the SAT and even more so when reporting their average stats .

Seriously? Damn found out too late about this

 

[ZedsDed]

Pretty sure almost every undergrad top tier school superscores the SAT and even more so when reporting their average stats .

I wasn't aware of that. Do other schools (mid tiers) do that? I was happy with my score so I never thought about these things.

 

[GrapesofRath]

I wasn't aware of that. Do other schools (mid tiers) do that? I was happy with my score so I never thought about these things.

The only school I know of that doesn't do it and just takes the single highest sitting is Michigan. Most top schools honestly have a computer system that puts in your highest section from each sitting before it even gets viewed by a person on the admissions committee. Keep in mind for as much as people like to think otherwise, the SAT carries a fair amount of less weight than the MCAT for admission purposes.

 

[efle]

Is multiple SAT/ACT sittings normally seen on applicants to these schools? I only knew a couple people that tried more than once

 

[WedgeDawg]

Are we really doing this again

 

[efle]

Are we really doing this again

Again? We never stop

 

[fdgjfg]

It's just really counterintuitive. People who did well on SAT/ACT to get into top undergrads are expected to do well on the MCAT. Since the reported MCAT averages at these top schools are lower than expected, really the source of these problems are:

1. The education quality is flawed in some way
2. Too many premeds who got weeded out by prereqs decide to take the MCAT anyways
3. The SAT/ACT statistics of undergrads are exaggerated (like superscoring, throwing out poor attempts, averaging all best attempts etc.)

I don't think #1 is the issue since those who attend top undergrads are expected to navigate their own ways through and do well. #2 is the issue and exaggerated anxiety of doing well on tests led to catastrophic results. And #3 is self-explanatory.

Vandy student here. Here are just some general guesses, but take them as you will.

1. The education itself seems good to me. I managed to score a 521 (38 equivalent) and felt that the upper levels were great at preparing students for the type of thinking necessary. I have no frame of reference to compare to other schools though.
2. This might be the problem. First, there is kind of a culture here where people get rocked by the weed outs, and since grade deflation is rampant, people kind of think they are doing alright with a 3.3 GPA. This results in a sort of "learned helplessness" where they are just trying to squeak by with a B- in most of their pre-reqs, and don't really try to learn the material. They still think they are doing fine, so they take the MCAT. Second, the grade deflation causes a huge chunk of people to switch from science majors into easier majors (for example: "Medicine, Health, and Society" is a big pre-med feeder major for people who drop out of Bio/Neuroscience) in order to protect their GPA, and so they don't get the benefit of intellectually challenging science upper levels. Lastly, Vandy has the whole "work hard play hard" dominant greek life culture so there is less vicious competition and fewer gunners. All of these factors might combine to lower the average MCAT.
3. Could be possible.

 

[Lawpy]

Vandy student here. Here are just some general guesses, but take them as you will.

1. The education itself seems good to me. I managed to score a 521 (38 equivalent) and felt that the upper levels were great at preparing students for the type of thinking necessary. I have no frame of reference to compare to other schools though.
2. This might be the problem. First, there is kind of a culture here where people get rocked by the weed outs, and since grade deflation is rampant, people kind of think they are doing alright with a 3.3 GPA. This results in a sort of "learned helplessness" where they are just trying to squeak by with a B- in most of their pre-reqs, and don't really try to learn the material. They still think they are doing fine, so they take the MCAT. Second, the grade deflation causes a huge chunk of people to switch from science majors into easier majors (for example: "Medicine, Health, and Society" is a big pre-med feeder major for people who drop out of Bio/Neuroscience) in order to protect their GPA, and so they don't get the benefit of intellectually challenging science upper levels. Lastly, Vandy has the whole "work hard play hard" dominant greek life culture so there is less vicious competition and fewer gunners. All of these factors might combine to lower the average MCAT.
3. Could be possible.

Great, thanks for your input. Admittedly, #1 was a very poor suggestion and I apologize for that, while #3 was just thrown out there. I'm curious about #2, and based on what you mentioned, grade deflation is counterproductive. The possible benefits of working insanely hard and scoring well on academics/tests are completely outweighed by a demoralizing and stressful environment. An earlier post suggests that heavily grade-inflated universities like Harvard/Yale have students pumping out with 35-36 MCAT medians, so maybe the grade policy is strongly connected to student attitude and motivation to succeed.

I'm all for academic policies involving rigorous courses with slight deflation (or even perhaps slight inflation). Strict deflationary measures essentially defeat the central purpose of learning concepts over focusing on grades.