3.99 GPA 38 MCAT bad EC's, please help!

[mackwell]

Hello all you helpful forum members! I've lurked here for many years but now it's my turn to ask the question.... what are my chances?!

GPA: 3.99 (science and non-science)


MCAT: 38 (10PS 13VR 15BS)

Clinical Volunteering:

80 hours over 4-5 months (ongoing) as a tattoo removal assistant (basically a social organization that provides cheap tattoo removal for ex-convicts, transients, those under the poverty line. Worked with different doctors every shift, and had first hand experience bandaging, interacting with patients).

60 hours as a Chinese Medicine assistant. checked inpatients, assisted acupuncturist, worked in the herbal pharmacy mixing/preparing medicinal concoctions.

Physician shadowing:

24 hours with Multi-lab Facility Manager. This guy oversaw all the rapid response labs, so I got to spend time seeing the administrative side of things as well as talk to hematologists, and other lab workers.

75 hours with an assortment of dentists (I went to dental school a year ago, but that's another story!)

Research:

none


Nonclinical volunteer activities:

CAT (cat adoption team) for 80 hours, worked as an adoption specialist, making matches between cats and people and informing them of policies, filling paperwork.

Employment:

Did commercial fishing the last four summers in Alaska, have been a bartender for most of this and last year (after withdrawing from Dental School).

Worked at Burgerville before that... didn't think it was worth mentioning on my AMCAS though!


And without further ado... this is my potential list of schools!

1. OHSU (OR) MD state

- This is my state school; preference is given to in-state residents which helps my chances of getting in. Good location close to family. Under 50,000 a year. Solid curriculum, clinical focus.


2. Baylor (TX) MD private

- Relatively high MCAT 33.1, 75.3% in-state, research oriented, a reach school.

3. Loma Linda University (CA) MD private

- Clinical focus, good graduation rate and pass rate. OOS friendly, 50,000 a year. Good location and nice weather!


4. Creighton (NE) MD private

- OOS friendly, low MCAT 30, under 55,000 a year, but might not accept CC pre-reqs?


5. Johns Hopkins (MD) MD private

- High MCAT 35, OOS friendly. ~50,000 a year. May prioritize research. Reach school.


6. MC Wisconsin (WI) MD private

- Avg MCAT 31.8, OOS friendly, close to family, 52,000 a year.


7. Mayo (MN) MD private

- Highly ranked, highly regarded for the quality of their medical program, MCAT 33, small class size 50, research oriented. Under 50,000 a year. Reach school.


8. Miami-miller (FL) MD private

- Avg MCAT 32, interesting location, school has stated it has dropped in-state preference so OOS friendly, under 50,000 a year, large class size 205.


9. Quinnipiac (CN) MD private

- Low MCAT 29.5, nice location, claims no in-state preference, ~50,000 a year.


10. St. Louis (MO) MD private

- Avg MCAT 32.5, large class size 175 and OOS friendly, ~50,000 a year.


11. Vanderbilt (TN) MD private

- High MCAT 34.8, research oriented, under 50,000 a year, OOS friendly. Reach school.

12. Wake Forest (NC) MD private

- Avg MCAT 31.5, somewhat OOS friendly, ~50,000 a year.


13. Yeshiva (NY) MD private

- Avg MCAT 32.4, OOS friendly, large class 183, ~50,000 a year.


14. Arizona (AZ) MD public

- Low MCAT 29.1, 60-70% in state matriculation, 50,000 a year, nice location for warm weather!


15. Emory (GA) MD private

- High MCAT 34, OOS friendly, 52,000 a year, probably a reach school (research?).



The thought of all the secondaries is starting to scare me, so I'm trying to bring the list down to 10 schools. Keep in mind though that because of an error with my transcripts I'm just NOW submitting my AMCAS!!! So in addition to super weak EC's I'm a late applicant

Oh and I did Ochem, Prin Of Bio, Chem, and Physics at a community college.... but got a super high score on the Organic Chemistry ACS exam so my four year college converted it into upper level credit. Not sure if that's gonna be a problem..

Let me know what your opinions are on my list and number of schools! Any feedback is GREATLY appreciated! Thanks

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[gyngyn]

Are you dedicated to a life of service in Christ's name? If not, DC LLU.

 

[mackwell]

Ah sorry, I should have included the fact that I was baptized Catholic, and while I no longer am a practicing Catholic, I have looked into Loma Linda's rules of conduct and have no qualms following them.

 

[gyngyn]

Ah sorry, I should have included the fact that I was baptized Catholic, and while I no longer am a practicing Catholic, I have looked into Loma Linda's rules of conduct and have no qualms following them.

LL wants you celebrate them, not tolerate them. More than a hundred years has given a sense of the difference.

DC Mayo too, no research.

 

[Ace-Co-A]

Are these MCAT averages the matriculant or accepted applicant averages? I swear that a school's average MCAT number varies widely based on who you ask...

Having no research is the major omission I see in your application. Otherwise, it looks pretty strong to me (great stats, obviously). Goro's pretty helpful with picking out weak spots in applications -- hopefully he'll stop in to give his thoughts.

My big question about your application is... Why did you withdraw from dental school? Are you going to do the same thing again with medical school, especially since your human-medicine-related ECs are a bit thin? I'd think about that question -- although perhaps it is only my curiosity about the situation, and not its relevance to medical school admissions, that makes me ask.

 

[Lamel]

I am not sure about this, but should the OP put the "Chinese Medicine Assistant" experience on his app?

 

[lurking892]

I am personally more curious about whether the 75 hours of dentist shadowing ought to be included. Anyway, good luck OP, those are great stats!

 

[baxt1412]

Same questions for me regarding chinese medicine and dentist shadowing. was the tattoo removal done in a clinic setting? it sounds like it since there were physicians there. is that like a dermatologist or plastic physician?

 

[Goro]

I don't count the Chinese Medicine work as sufficient for clinical experiences in American medicine. I'm pretty intolerant of fringe medicine, quackery and unproven claims. I'd like to see some more evidence that you know what you're getting into. Try Ecs in a clinic, Planned Parenthood, hospice or a nursing home.

Clinical Volunteering:

80 hours over 4-5 months (ongoing) as a tattoo removal assistant (basically a social organization that provides cheap tattoo removal for ex-convicts, transients, those under the poverty line. Worked with different doctors every shift, and had first hand experience bandaging, interacting with patients).

60 hours as a Chinese Medicine assistant. checked inpatients, assisted acupuncturist, worked in the herbal pharmacy mixing/preparing medicinal concoctions.

Not sufficient. Your observations of doctors have been really specialized and I have yet to see that you understand what a doctor's day is like. The dental work isn't going to count and would make me grill you at interviews on why not DDS?
Physician shadowing:
24 hours with Multi-lab Facility Manager. This guy oversaw all the rapid response labs, so I got to spend time seeing the administrative side of things as well as talk to hematologists, and other lab workers.

75 hours with an assortment of dentists (I went to dental school a year ago, but that's another story!)

App killer at any top school, like the research giants.
Research:

none

I'm a cat lover, so this if fine by me. However, I see a lot more in my interviewees. The typical # of hrs is >100


Nonclinical volunteer activities:

CAT (cat adoption team) for 80 hours, worked as an adoption specialist, making matches between cats and people and informing them of policies, filling paperwork.
So you're simply worked for the past four years, and no recent ECs? Or were the ECs recent, and you did none while in UG?


1. OHSU
3. Loma Linda University
4. Creighton (Maybe)
8. Miami-miller
9. Quinnipiac
10. St. Louis
12. Wake Forest

With the lack of research, and the limited ECs, I think you boxed yourself in where you are not competitive for the research giants, and have ruled out the schools that value service, like USC or Creighton.

I think you're going to have to take a crack at a cycle and see how it shakes out, and boost the ECs and so if needed, be readier for next year. You appear to be someone who decided too late the DDS wasn't for you, but haven't beefed up the package to make yourself attractive to MD or DO schools.

 

[chemguy79]

Did I read correctly that you attended dental school? If so, did you leave on good terms? (Given your grades, I would assume so.)

OP, be prepared to mention why you left dental school and why now medicine. I don't think that your ECs answer this question very well.

@Goro, for applicants who were enrolled in a different medical professional program but withdrew prior to applying to medical school, how 'aggressive' is the questioning for the applicant regarding the program change?

 

[mackwell]

First off, thank you all for the feedback; I’d be completely lost trying to tackle this process without the help of the SDN community.


@gyngyn

Well at this point I cannot say exactly how I'd react to adopting the ideals and traditions of SDA into my life, so I'll take some time to consider it further.

@Ace-Co-A

Those were the average MCAT scores for matriculated students, not sure what year they are from though, I just copied them off of the "legitimate, free, SDN matriculant data spreadsheet." Posted by Dr. Troll.

Yes I agree that because of my weak ECs, and the fact that I withdrew from dental school my motivation to attend and complete medical school comes into question. That’s why I used the first half of my personal statement to address that question, as the decision-making process I went through in leaving dental school really gave me the resolve to pursue medicine. The abbreviated version of it is that when I started college I began as a pre-med but was scared away from the field because of all the negative stories I’d hear from disillusioned residents or on forums. I knew I wanted to enter some kind of health field, as learning and teaching others about the human body excites me, but I decided to prioritize a perceived lifestyle and financial considerations over my aptitude and passions, and concluded that dentistry was the more pragmatic choice. After failing my lab practicals (while excelling in the lecture courses) I knew I had made a terrible mistake. I realized I had absolutely no talent for 3-dimensional perception and manipulation. I had been aware before dental school of my lack of perceptual abilities, as I’m easily the worst person I know when it comes to navigation, but I’m talented at art and portraiture so I figured my attention to detail and dexterity could make up for it. In addition, doing decent on the PAT (which I was only able to do because I did so well at the 2-dimensional portions of the test, such as the angle discrimination, and I used process of elimination tricks for the parts that required 3-d reasoning) quelled my anxiety, so I decided to go for it.

When I made the realization that not only do I lack the aptitude for dentistry, but I also dislike the work, I knew persevering through would just leave me feeling frustrated and trapped. I’ve forced my way through difficult jobs before (commercial fishing in Bristol bay is no picnic) but it really hit me that my career will make up such a huge part of my life that I should pick something that I feel passionate about, something that will continually excite and test my abilities. With my love for learning and teaching about the human body, my ability to reason and memorize information, as well as a sense of empathy for those who are suffering, I knew my best chance at having a fulfilling career was to enter the medical field. In addition I was also an HPSP recipient, so I knew that if I wanted to leave I’d better do it soon to avoid owing Uncle Sam an inordinate amount of money.

So I withdrew from dental school in Nov of 2013 with the support of the Dean as well as the HPSP coordinators, was given the bill for my expenses, and immediately began working full-time in a bar until I was able to pay it all off. This took up a good deal of time, hence my less than amazing EC’s, as I also had to balance studying for the MCAT with my job and volunteering. I am confident this is what I want to do however, as talking with the various doctors I worked with during my volunteering experience really gave me some good insights into the different environments and career choices a degree in medicine can provide.



TL;DR I prioritized money and lifestyle over aptitude and passion when I chose dental school over medical school, upon entering I found I lacked both those crucial requirements, and realized that although career in medicine looks intimidating, as long as I have passion and drive to succeed I’ll have a chance at excelling in the field.


@Goro

Thanks a lot for the feedback; these are the kinds of things I need to be ready to address when/if I get interviews.

In my application I tried to make it clear that I realize my experiences in Chinese Medicine are not fully indicative of what I’ll be doing as a western trained doctor, but rather parts of their job (interacting with patients, deductive reasoning, medication management) may have some overlap that will help give a me a sense of what it feels like to be in the position of a general healthcare provider. Also, most of these EC’s were completed this year, as I spent my UG years either undecided or preparing for dental school.

I realize my narrow exposure to the healthcare field will hurt my application, but I agree I should just give it a shot this cycle. I’m confident this is what I want to do, and if I don’t get in I’ll definitely reapply next year after taking your advice and getting more volunteering/shadowing opportunities. Also, are there any other schools off the top of your head that I should look into? I just feel more comfortable applying to ~10 schools, if not just out of some arbitrary compulsion.

 

[lurking892]

Not that I'm super qualified to provide guidance, but a lot of your story (at least what you've posted) revolves around "why NOT dentistry" as opposed to "why medicine". I would advise spinning it as why you know medicine is right for you, not why all the other careers are wrong. Understandably there is some overlap, and I know it's a fine line to walk -- just my two cents!

 

[chemguy79]

One major con to applying for this cycle is that if you fail to get accepted due to a lack of medically related ECs, you will be considered a reapplicant and will be expected to improve your application prior to any subsequent applications.

Personally, I would focus on applying next year and using this year to reinforce your passion for medicine. What medically related ECs are your currently pursuing?

 

[mackwell]

@lurking892

Yea that's definitely a large portion of my story, the why medicine is more related to my love of classes like anatomy/physiology, finding myself losing track of time reading neurology journals, feeling at ease in the position of healthcare provider, having a desire to teach and educate, which I've verified through my various albeit limited volunteering experiences.

@chemguy79

Oooh staying out of school another year is a scary thought, I just want to get back on track as soon as possible and I'm much more confident in choosing medicine than I ever was when I chose dentistry. Right now I'm still volunteering as a tattoo removal assistant, I'm in the process of applying to become an MCAT tutor so I can quit the bar job, and if I was rejected this cycle I would spend the time bolstering my application before the next one. So since I'd work on more EC's (shadowing, try to get into some research) during the next year regardless, should I just apply now and see what happens or do you think it would hurt my chances so much that I should postpone until next cycle? Keep in mind I'd be happy going to any of the MD schools on my list.

 

[Apramana]

@mackwell

Did you see this post? It may be relevant as you make the decision to apply this year as opposed to waiting until your application is stronger:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/is-this-a-bad-idea.1089520/#post-15533583

... I feel like my life has been on hold since graduating college and am bulking at waiting three more years before I can really move on with my life...

This is the absolute wrong attitude to have. This is long long process of lifelong learning. The journey is just as important, in fact more important than the destination. Many people who don't get into med school didn't because they tried to rush things. They looked for shortcuts instead of triying to get all their ducks in a row. Would rather reach the finish line than actually run the race. You are trying to rush into a tunnel and that light you see at the end is really a train, sorry. Take the prereqs at a pace that you will get A's. The goal has to be to get into med school, not to "move on with your life" faster. Your life goes by at the same pace whether you are studying organic chem or are in med school. Enjoy the journey. It's a long one. Another year of prereqs not kill you. In fact, it's lighter fare than what's to come -- you'll sleep a lot more, eat better, get more exercise, see more sunlight, tv, movies, friends, during that stage than most of what's thereafter.

I hope you find that insight at least as worthwhile as I have. Good luck with your decision, and please have a great day.

 

[Law2Doc]

Not that I'm super qualified to provide guidance, but a lot of your story (at least what you've posted) revolves around "why NOT dentistry" as opposed to "why medicine". I would advise spinning it as why you know medicine is right for you, not why all the other careers are wrong. Understandably there is some overlap, and I know it's a fine line to walk -- just my two cents!

Strongly agree with this. I'd also point out that a difficulty with 3-D perspective and manipulation actually is even more of an issue with medicine than dentistry. Dentistry deals with the teeth and the surrounding mouth. That's it. Very limited landscape. Medicine deals with everything else. Every muscle, tendon, ligament goes from one place to another, every organ sits in a certain 3-D orientation with respect to others, you have to know what vessels and nerves run where, lots of real and potential spaces for fluid. It's a 3D field. Every procedure you do you have to be cognizant of what else lives near the spaces you are in. Most of the imaging you will get is three dimensional. At the end, sure, maybe you can settle into a job where you stick with the subcutaneous soft tissues and just do things like Botox or tattoo removal, but at least through your schooling and training (a lot of years) you will be living in the world of 3D anatomy.

So I'd say describing a weakness of 3D perspective is a huge problem for medicine, much more than dentistry. Don't use that in a PS. Definitely sounds like you need to actually do some shadowing with guys who actually practice medicine, not people who leverage their "doctor" title to remove tattoos or sell herbs and other fringe niches. Also don't say you are going into medicine because you are running from dentistry. Medicine doesn't want other fields cast offs. It wants winners who have some draw toward medicine for an articulable reason ( often based on experiences obtained while shadowing). For sure don't suggest you initially picked dentistry because your focus was $. Nobody will believe you have changed.

 

[mackwell]

@Apramana

I agree with that sentiment, only difficulty is I've been waiting out of school for 2.5 years now! So I'd be 25 by that start of medical school.

But yea, now with this, it's really looking like I need a year to clean everything up and apply strong and on time next year.

@Law2Doc

Thanks for your advice!

I understand that 3-D perspective and manipulation are very important in medicine, which is why I will stay far away from any surgery residencies (if that could still happen). The thing is, although I have terrible skills when it comes to those things, I know with enough practice I can reach a level of basic competency. I was even able to filet a salmon after only two seasons in Alaska so I can't be completely lost

I've also taken Anatomy and Physiology, and have no problem identifying the muscles based on their origin and insertions. So I understand 3-dimensional concepts, and can do simple things like skin and gut elk, but I would never want to be a surgeon. That's why a job like neurology excites me so much. Not only do I find the subject matter fascinating, it's a minimally invasive career meaning my 3-D learning disability hopefully won't hold me back too much.

The reason I include dentistry in my personal statement is to show growth, a change of priorities. And believe me, when you go through sleepless nights of anxiety-ridden nightmares about living a life that you don't want, you are forced to drastically question the assumptions that got you there. Of course I still value money, but in my minds pie-chart of a fulfilling life money has lost a big slice to love/competence for your work.

Well those who leverage their doctor status to remove tattoos are doing so for free, as is the Chinese Medicine Clinic. But yes I agree it would benefit me to observe more doctors.

 

[gettheleadout]

60 hours as a Chinese Medicine assistant. checked inpatients, assisted acupuncturist, worked in the herbal pharmacy mixing/preparing medicinal concoctions.

75 hours with an assortment of dentists (I went to dental school a year ago, but that's another story!)

Research:

none

Nonclinical volunteer activities:

CAT (cat adoption team) for 80 hours, worked as an adoption specialist, making matches between cats and people and informing them of policies, filling paperwork.

I'm sorry to say it but as I read through this OP, these things hit me like "red flag, red flag, red flag."

Work in TCM/any alternative therapy really but especially something with an "herbal pharmacy" makes me seriously wonder about OP's views on modern medicine. Obviously this could be cleared up in an interview, but is not in any way helping your candidacy. Extended shadowing of another health field, in this case dentistry, is concerning. This is then magnified by the fact that you were enrolled in dental school. No research is, as mentioned previously, an app killer for research-heavy schools, which is a shame given your stats. No human-related non-clinical volunteering? I'm as much a friend to the animals as Goro, but the lack here is only raising further doubts/questions about your motivations/preparedness.

 

[Beth_W737]

Also as noted neurologists need to read their own CT and MRIs, need to know neuroanatomy really well, don't know if this would be an issue. Why neurology?


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[mackwell]

@gettheleadout

Yes my application definitely has red flags, and I intend to fix those if I need to apply again next year. And like you said, if I can get an interview, I'll demonstrate that I understand there's a major difference between using herbs and techniques based on anecdotes and tradition and using medicine based on peer-reviewed rigorously controlled testing.

And I think you're right about the dentistry shadowing, gives the wrong impression if I include it so I've taken it out.

I guess I considered the Cat adoption experience human related, because I wasn't a cat caretaker, but instead was a kind of cat educator, matchmaker, and salesman for all the potential adopters that walked into our shelter. Of course I love cats, and have a lot of sympathy for those who can't defend themselves, human or not, so I also spent some time feeding, cleaning, and socializing the strays. But I see your point. Basically the app by itself looks bad, so my only chance is to get an interview and explain myself and desire to go into medicine sufficiently.

@Beth_W737

If I just need to look at and understand a 3-D system, I won't have too many problems. I understand it conceptually, and can at least look at a 2-D image and convert it into 3-D if it's something I'm familiar with (like the brain after studying it for years). Teeth were an issue because everyone has slightly different grooves and dips, and these things are in the .1mm range, something so small and complex that it is nearly impossible for me to try and replicate them with runny materials. (And then add a tiny mirror to that, so you have to do the whole procedure in reverse? No thanks.)