3 New D.O. Schools for 2013: Marian U., Campbell U., and U of So. Alabama

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TriagePreMed

TriagePreMed

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Anyone planning on applying to these 3 news schools? The AACOM rep told me today that they will open for sure.
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Does it mean the admission cycle will start next year 2012 for those schools? If so, I'm in
 
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I'm applying to Marian for sure. I haven't looked into the others.
 
There is also a webpage for Wisconsin College of Osteopathic Medicine. Not sure when that is planned to open.
 
When I apply to medical schools, I'll definitely apply to Univ. of South Alabama.
 
Good thing the AOA is simultaneously increasing residency spots. Oh wait. When they make these schools do they try to pick weak universities with no research infrastructure in the middle of nowhere or does it just work out that way
 
dbth77 said:
Good thing the AOA is simultaneously increasing residency spots. Oh wait. When they make these schools do they try to pick weak universities with no research infrastructure in the middle of nowhere or does it just work out that way
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torshi said:
residency positions do open when new schools open, if not then it obviously won't make since.
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Uhhhhh. You're both wrong? Somehow? The AOA actually has successfully added new residency slots every year, primarily through taking advantage of a loophole in the 1997 cap that allows primary care residency in undeserved areas to 1) receive extra funding and 2) go above the cap by a small percent each year even before the extra funding. This is A trick both the aoa and acgme uses, and workss that once a program is running, its funds can be moved around to other residencies of any kind at the same hospital, even ones approved for 'zero spots'. This is a small reason why southern Alabama is a chosen spot, its all role territory for this financial bait and switch, and add in that primary care is the aoa's thing.

The problem is the number of spots you can make a year like this are in the 40s, not 100s. Way too few when most of the spots end up being fm and peds, no offense to them.
 
Can they at least call them more interesting names. Marian University? It reminds me of the name of the monkey island at the Zoo. Campbell University? Oh, did they allocate the profits from their Tomato soups into a medical school?
 
To be fair, Marian is a known college (to some people), and probably among the bigger names to ever get a osteopathic school. Sad as that is. (yes I'm aware of the state schools, below them, and above the other privates in my personal little ranking of name value). I have no clue where campbell or southern alabama is, besides the obvious "in south alabama"
 
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The South Alabama school was originally set to open during the current application cycle which I happen to be applying. When I had one of my initial meetings with my pre-med advisor, she totally slammed the S. Alabama school.

And no, it wasn't just a bias against new DO schools as she encouraged me to apply to WCU-COM. It also wasn't a bias against other AL schools (I'm at UAB), because I was also encouraged to apply to USA. She just said the funding sources and infrastructure were sketchy. I never followed up on any of this information, so take it with a grain of salt. I just though I'd pass the information along. Also, I don't think it's connected to USA (the MD school), but I could be wrong.
 
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I would also like to point out that, although many of these are at "no-name schools," I really think that whole aspect of the DO school expansion issue is overblown. If you look at some of the newer DO schools, their match lists look just about the same as any other DO school's list. There are dozens of PA programs at no name schools, (Salus?) and yet the PA profession is growing in numbers and in recognition. When we're all practicing medicine, nobody (except for premeds) is going to care where you went to school, and unless you're gunning for the Nobel Prize in Medicine, your career won't be helped by going to UCSF over some random unknown school.

Now, the fact that schools' expansion is outpacing residency expansion is worrying, but I really think FMG's are going to feel the crunch long before DO schools. One could even make the argument that an increase in DO grads will increase our professional recognition to the point of eroding any lingering bias among program directors, and that the residency crunch will affect MD's and DO's equally.
 
NurWollen said:
I would also like to point out that, although many of these are at "no-name schools," I really think that whole aspect of the DO school expansion issue is overblown. If you look at some of the newer DO schools, their match lists look just about the same as any other DO school's list. There are dozens of PA programs at no name schools, (Salus?) and yet the PA profession is growing in numbers and in recognition. When we're all practicing medicine, nobody (except for premeds) is going to care where you went to school, and unless you're gunning for the Nobel Prize in Medicine, your career won't be helped by going to UCSF over some random unknown school.
I disagree, take a look at the match lists at schools like DMU & CCOM. Newer schools can't even been to compete, not to mention the fact that students from those schools usually land higher ranked programs. Secondly the older DO schools are well established and know how and where to send their students 3rd and 4th year. I for one wouldn't like to be a guinea pig for a new school ( Unless they were handing me a full ride).
Thirdly these schools are really weak and usually lack any connection to a respectable undergraduate university and as such lack resources like research opportunities ( Which are "required" for more competitive residencies).


Now, the fact that schools' expansion is outpacing residency expansion is worrying, but I really think FMG's are going to feel the crunch long before DO schools. One could even make the argument that an increase in DO grads will increase our professional recognition to the point of eroding any lingering bias among program directors, and that the residency crunch will affect MD's and DO's equally.
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I wouldn't say too long before. I fundamentally disagree with the second notion, as if you're going to be accepting more students with low stats, that means statistically the chances of them actually landing a residency in one of the higher programs which actually might discriminate against DOs is low. It'll actually breed discontent as program directors begin to heuristically clump together higher ranked schools like CCOM with lower ranked schools which likely will produce lower scoring graduates.
 
I would apply to Marian and Campbell, if they were favorable to out of state students. Has there been any other indication that they would have their inaugural class in 2013? I can't find anything online.
 
serenade said:
I wouldn't say too long before. I fundamentally disagree with the second notion, as if you're going to be accepting more students with low stats, that means statistically the chances of them actually landing a residency in one of the higher programs which actually might discriminate against DOs is low. It'll actually breed discontent as program directors begin to heuristically clump together higher ranked schools like CCOM with lower ranked schools which likely will produce lower scoring graduates.
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it really depends on the school...the avg gpa and mcat are going up for most DO schools and the reason why the national avgs arent as high is because of a few DO schools that have huge regional bias to the point that their applicant pool is small compared to the schools with little to no regional bias and thus accept students with lower gpa/mcat...if these new schools do not have a huge regional bias then there is no reason why they cant have a good avg matriculating gpa/mcat (3.6+/27+)...
 
SoulinNeed said:
I would apply to Marian and Campbell, if they were favorable to out of state students. Has there been any other indication that they would have their inaugural class in 2013? I can't find anything online.
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http://www.marian.edu/medicalschool/Pages/FAQ.aspx
"Provisional Accreditation Status: Marian University hopes to submit the final business plan for COCA approval in August 2011. After reaching provisional status, the MUCOM can begin to recruit students for entry in fall 2013."
 
NurWollen said:
I would also like to point out that, although many of these are at "no-name schools," I really think that whole aspect of the DO school expansion issue is overblown. If you look at some of the newer DO schools, their match lists look just about the same as any other DO school's list. There are dozens of PA programs at no name schools, (Salus?) and yet the PA profession is growing in numbers and in recognition. When we're all practicing medicine, nobody (except for premeds) is going to care where you went to school, and unless you're gunning for the Nobel Prize in Medicine, your career won't be helped by going to UCSF over some random unknown school.

Now, the fact that schools' expansion is outpacing residency expansion is worrying, but I really think FMG's are going to feel the crunch long before DO schools. One could even make the argument that an increase in DO grads will increase our professional recognition to the point of eroding any lingering bias among program directors, and that the residency crunch will affect MD's and DO's equally.
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I've had two attendings tell me that the class of 2015 will be feeling the crunch. I should be fine as a 2013'er but I wouldn't want to be the current first years.
 
IDFsoldierboy said:
it really depends on the school...the avg gpa and mcat are going up for most DO schools and the reason why the national avgs arent as high is because of a few DO schools that have huge regional bias to the point that their applicant pool is small compared to the schools with little to no regional bias and thus accept students with lower gpa/mcat...if these new schools do not have a huge regional bias then there is no reason why they cant have a good avg matriculating gpa/mcat (3.6+/27+)...
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Because if you have that high of a GPA you're either going to be accepted by a top tier DO school or a MD school. Either of which are significantly better investments than a new school, and seeing as they won't likely be giving their class a scholarship, the averages probably will be something like 3.4/25 at tops. Not to mention the schools likely will be private and so they will be charging right off the bat extremely high tuition. They pretty much will just be scrapping the bottom of the barrel, the people who didn't get accepted anywhere else.
 
NurWollen said:
I would also like to point out that, although many of these are at "no-name schools," I really think that whole aspect of the DO school expansion issue is overblown. If you look at some of the newer DO schools, their match lists look just about the same as any other DO school's list. There are dozens of PA programs at no name schools, (Salus?) and yet the PA profession is growing in numbers and in recognition. When we're all practicing medicine, nobody (except for premeds) is going to care where you went to school, and unless you're gunning for the Nobel Prize in Medicine, your career won't be helped by going to UCSF over some random unknown school.

Now, the fact that schools' expansion is outpacing residency expansion is worrying, but I really think FMG's are going to feel the crunch long before DO schools. One could even make the argument that an increase in DO grads will increase our professional recognition to the point of eroding any lingering bias among program directors, and that the residency crunch will affect MD's and DO's equally.
Click to expand...

First, going to UCSF over some unknown med school absolutely does help your career in multiple ways. I don't know where you got the idea that it wouldn't, and this is coming from someone who didn't go to a top school. Second, if there is a residency crunch and there are a finite number of spots MD program directors are not going to shut out MD students who have no other match. There will be pressure on multiple levels to give the spots to MD students with the idea of, "Screw DO students, they have their own match that MD students aren't a part of." The problem with this is there aren't enough AOA spots for DO students. The AOA is such a broken organization, it's too bad the students with 200,000 in debt are the ones who will suffer.
 
TriagePreMed said:
Sure, that's what entering class means. We're talking about what cycle will they start taking applications, which is 2013. Class of 2018 means that they took applications in 2013 and started med school in 2014.
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yes, that's what I mean. Their websites state that they will start recruit students for 2013 entering class, doesn't it mean they will take applications in 2012?
 
Man, I hope Marian does open for 2013, like their website says. Maybe I should call, and see if that's still on, as that would mean that I can start applying in May.
 
"The current business plan projects 150 osteopathic medical students in the first class that will enter in fall 2013." -http://www.marian.edu/MEDICALSCHOOL/Pages/FAQ.aspx
 
Offshore medical schools will be a big gamble for sure. DO students will fill up the unfilled residency spots. Great news for US students.
 
Last I heard the AOA was pressuring COCA to stop accrediting DO schools until such time that residency slots were increased to accommodate the rapid growth. Not sure the status on that though.

Also, there is a bill up right now to increase residency slots by 17%... not sure how that fits in though or if it will be approved/how it will be paid for
 
DbDan said:
Last I heard the AOA was pressuring COCA to stop accrediting DO schools until such time that residency slots were increased to accommodate the rapid growth. Not sure the status on that though.

Also, there is a bill up right now to increase residency slots by 17%... not sure how that fits in though or if it will be approved/how it will be paid for
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Thats the issue congress has with it too. It has no mention of where the funding will come from. The only logical answer is "from medicare" and thats a poison pill for any bill, if it wants to *expand* medicare by a couple mil a year for a few years in a row.
 
DbDan said:
Last I heard the AOA was pressuring COCA to stop accrediting DO schools until such time that residency slots were increased to accommodate the rapid growth. Not sure the status on that though.

Also, there is a bill up right now to increase residency slots by 17%... not sure how that fits in though or if it will be approved/how it will be paid for
Click to expand...

It's more like a small and rational faction of the AOA tried to pursuade the AOA to tell COCA to stop being like Walmart. AOA however instead of following reason told the rational people to go take a hike. Not surprising though...
 
serenade said:
It's more like a small and rational faction of the AOA tried to pursuade the AOA to tell COCA to stop being like Walmart. AOA however instead of following reason told the rational people to go take a hike. Not surprising though...
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I assume this refers, in part, to the MOAPS letter. I sort of wish that more state societies had the guts to turn down superfluous schools.

There is some logic floating around that by increasing Osteopathic numbers you'll force further acceptance of equal standing, but that argument suffers from both poor timing in the midst of a readency crunch and comes from a chip on the shoulder attitude that far over emphasizes the small, situational, inequalities.
 
SoulinNeed said:
Man, I hope Marian does open for 2013, like their website says. Maybe I should call, and see if that's still on, as that would mean that I can start applying in May.
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They just received an incredible donation from the owner of AIT. So it hopefully won't be due to lack of funding.

Also, Marian is a well established undergraduate institution. They have a great nursing program. They are a catholic liberal arts university. I do believe research opportunities may truly be a concern, but they haven't posted anything about it. I may see if I can talk with someone and see what they're trying to do with that.
Their goal though is to make up for the shortage of primary care physicians in Indiana, so I'm sure research won't be their first priority.
 
TriagePreMed said:
The AOA's logic is that as long as there are residencies filled with IMG/FMG, their Osteopathic students can get them. They don't care about specializing. They want acceptance by numbers alone.
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Too bad they really won't. The more DO schools they open up the more people will think DO's on average are substandard applicants who basically are doomed to primary care. Either way, I personally have to say that the AOA and COCA have made me very fearful about applying to DO schools.
 
serenade said:
Too bad they really won't. The more DO schools they open up the more people will think DO's on average are substandard applicants who basically are doomed to primary care. Either way, I personally have to say that the AOA and COCA have made me very fearful about applying to DO schools.
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You make a good point, but I am still glad the DO route exists. I would be facing a much more uphill battle if MD were the only option. I was thinking of applying to Puerto Rican schools (I am fluent in Spanish) but The following thread makes me weary.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=861903
 
NurWollen said:
You make a good point, but I am still glad the DO route exists. I would be facing a much more uphill battle if MD were the only option. I was thinking of applying to Puerto Rican schools (I am fluent in Spanish) but The following thread makes me weary.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=861903
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that's so freakin cruel.
4 yrs at a fully accredited school and then poof! nothing to show for it.
 
NurWollen said:
You make a good point, but I am still glad the DO route exists. I would be facing a much more uphill battle if MD were the only option. I was thinking of applying to Puerto Rican schools (I am fluent in Spanish) but The following thread makes me weary.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=861903
Click to expand...

I agree, it's great that the DO route exists. It offers many people such as non-trads an option to become doctors, since in all honesty SMP's and post-baccs are only reasonable for people in their 20s and without kids. But yah, even with Spanish Fluency Puerto Rico might not accept you as you might not have any connections to the Island.

I just wish that the AOA/COCA would strengthen existing programs and stop shaming the profession by opening schools such as for profit RVU and maintaining a "Separate but Equal" stance towards MDs. I feel like it simply isn't in anyone's best interest, except for the board members and the ~4 OMM specialists in the country.
 
manubrium said:
that's so freakin cruel.
4 yrs at a fully accredited school and then poof! nothing to show for it.
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And fundamentally every school in PR is at risk of closure as a lot of the few hospitals on the island are shutting down. Likewise it is also possible that more rural/community programs in the mainland might also be at risk of this as they might be relying on a single hospital which might be underwater.
 
torshi said:
residency positions do open when new schools open, if not then it obviously won't make since.
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That's not how it works. Medicare allocation funding decides residency positions, and thus by extension Congress.

NurWollen said:
One could even make the argument that an increase in DO grads will increase our professional recognition to the point of eroding any lingering bias among program directors, and that the residency crunch will affect MD's and DO's equally.
Click to expand...

Sadly, not so long as AOA spots go unfilled in comparison to ACMGE positions. I agree that FMGs will feel it first though.
 
serenade said:
And fundamentally every school in PR is at risk of closure as a lot of the few hospitals on the island are shutting down. Likewise it is also possible that more rural/community programs in the mainland might also be at risk of this as they might be relying on a single hospital which might be underwater.
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So, any DO programs at risk?
 
School opening doesn't mean accreditation, right? Is there a risk of attending a new school?
 
PhoenixFire said:
School opening doesn't mean accreditation, right? Is there a risk of attending a new school?
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A new DO school has provisional accreditation and only gets full accreditation when their inaugural class graduates provided they meet the criteria set so there is a chance going to a new school that they won't get full accreditation....
 
IDFsoldierboy said:
A new DO school has provisional accreditation and only gets full accreditation when their inaugural class graduates provided they meet the criteria set so there is a chance going to a new school that they won't get full accreditation....
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Best I can tell no medical school in the 50 states (either degree) has ever lost or not earned accreditation in over 95 years. The risk is VERY low if that's your concern. Chiropractor and pharm schools have some issues with most accreditation.
 
DocEspana said:
Best I can tell no medical school in the 50 states (either degree) has ever lost or not earned accreditation in over 95 years. The risk is VERY low if that's your concern. Chiropractor and pharm schools have some issues with most accreditation.
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Maybe San Juan Bautista can re-apply for accreditation under COCA in a few years. They could add OMM to their curriculum, affiliate with a few stateside hospitals (maybe in Florida?)... though I could see students being hesitant to attend with their history, regardless of their accreditation.
 
serenade said:
Too bad they really won't. The more DO schools they open up the more people will think DO's on average are substandard applicants who basically are doomed to primary care. Either way, I personally have to say that the AOA and COCA have made me very fearful about applying to DO schools.
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This is one of the main reasons why I chose not to apply DO.
 
NurWollen said:
Maybe San Juan Bautista can re-apply for accreditation under COCA in a few years. They could add OMM to their curriculum, affiliate with a few stateside hospitals (maybe in Florida?)... though I could see students being hesitant to attend with their history, regardless of their accreditation.
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I doubt this will happen. It'll basically be telling the entire medical world that DO schools and COCA have lower requirements for accreditation. They'd be more better off opening a completely new DO school in PR.
 
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