31 yr old Non Trad 3.0-3.2 GPA from Top 3 Ivy - Fresh Start in TX 2nd Bachelor's vs Formal Postbacc?

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careerchanger77

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Hi fellow forumers! I'm a 31 (almost 32) yr old Non Traditional aspiring pre-med who has been lurking for awhile, getting educated on the many helpful threads, and am looking for some advice on what to do next.

After a lucrative but unfulfilling decade-long corporate career, I'm interested in becoming a doctor as a 2nd career and have been vetting this option over the past months through shadowing, volunteering, talking with friends in medicine, etc. I am aware of the amount of work this entails (2-3 years of post-bacc classes + a possibly glide year for applications) + 4 years of medical school + 4 or more years of residency.... and that I likely won't be done with med school until I am almost 40 and will finish residency in my early 40s. (I'll likely also be earning less as a primary care doc than I do in my corporate job, but I'll be happy.)

However, my questionable undergraduate stats and lack of any science classes seem to be a problem, and I'm currently trying to figure out what to do next to make my dream of becoming a doctor happen. Unfortunately, doing well in classes as a pre-business student was low on my priority list, and I threw my time into internships, interviewing, networking, extracurriculars (basically anything but making an effort to study properly), and my grades are now sub-par. On the other hand, I am somewhat confident I can do well when I actually try. I graduated high school with a 4.3 at the top of my class at a competitive school with a Perfect SAT score, so I know I'm good at taking tests and can do well when I put in effort. However, from reading SDN and talking with friends in med school, it sounds like poor undergrad stats (no matter how long ago) may potentially be a limiting factor and keep me out of med school.

Fellow SDN-ers, what would you do with these stats to work with?

Summary of my info and stats:
-31 (almost 32) yr old, Female
-B.A. in a non-science degree at a Top 3 Ivy League University in 2006 (<--I only mention that I went to a Top 3 school, since I'm not sure if Ad Comms will be more lenient on low GPAs coming from top-ranked schools)
-University Official Transcript shows 3.2 GPA; however, with my preliminary AMCAS calculations (counting repeated classes twice, converting quarter to semester units, etc.) shows what looks like a AMCAS cGPA of 3.0 (yikes) and no real sGPA to speak of (only took 1 stats class and received a 3.0 in it, but I can still improve this)
-126 semester credit hours completed using AMCAS conversion chart (190 quarter system credit hours)
-work experience: successful past 10 years in business / corporate roles at tech companies, at a director level since age 26 and has managed teams of 12+ employees
-started volunteering, shadowing, etc. but has no research experience yet
-Would strongly prefer MD for several reasons after careful research (snobbery is not one of them)
-Not married (in long term relationship; significant other is supportive), no mortgage or debts (unless you count rental properties I own for side income), and can fortunately finance post bacc and med school using savings if accepted without taking out loans
-No real science or math classes yet. I did take 1 stats class in college.... not sure if that counts. There was also a Pass/Fail linear algebra class I took (passed), AP credit in Calc and Physics from high school (I don't think I actually remember anything after so many years). Basically, I'm starting from scratch as far as required classes go.
-Texas resident

I've been struggling with figuring out the best course of action to make my dream of a 2nd career in medicine become a reality. Here are what I think are my options:

1. Option A: 2nd Bachelor's + Academic Fresh Start (90+ new credits in 3 or 4 yrs depending on full vs part time. Full time likely in 3), applying MD: Declare Academic Fresh Start (so all grades >10 years ago don't count under my GPA - https://www.tmdsas.com/medical/texasAcFrshStrt.html )and Do a DIY Post-Bacc as at a local public university in Texas. Would need 90 NEW semester credit hours (around 3-4 years of additional school depending on if I go full or part time) due to Academic Fresh Start policy, since I would lose all course credit from my 1st bachelor's (though having earned the degree will still show up.

PROS:
-Can literally start over with a clean slate by Texas law and achieve an up to 4.0 cGPA and sGPA if I study and can get the grades. However, Fresh Start's way of reporting grades is only good for the TMDSAS app for Texas public medical schools (there are 7-8 of them, not including Baylor which is private). My cGPA would still show my undergrad grades. If I get a 4.0 for 90 semester units in my 2nd bachelor's, my cGPA for AMCAS will likely only be around a 3.42. This path would maximize my chances of getting into MD schools in TX... but will this GPA be enough to have a shot at private out of state schools...?

CONS:
-Additional 1, maybe 2 years of post bacc coursework to meet the 90 hour requirement after declaring Academic Fresh Start. Takes 3 yrs to complete post bacc instead of 2... 4 years if I only do classes part time while working and don't do a full load each semester. Will I also need a glide year...? This means I will be 34-35 yrs old when applying to med school and ~36 when matriculating if all goes well and graduating around 40. Would I be too old / would the extra year or two be worth it in exchange for the clean slate on Texas GPA and potential for an unblemished near or perfect 4.0 on Texas med school apps?
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May not be able to work while taking classes, as almost all science courses at my local state schools are during the day (no evening / weekend classes)​

2. Option B: DIY Post Bacc at Local State University in 2-2.5 years without Academic Fresh Start, looking to apply MD
PROS: Only take 2-2.5 years to complete pre-med required classes, saves a bit on tuition (Texas tuition is around $6k per semester, for reference)
CONS:
-Would AMCAS ad comms look unfavorably or negatively upon the fact that I attend a "perceived less rigorous" program if I go to a local state 4 yr university? (I don't want to be seen as a "cop-out" after having gotten my BA and performed poorly at a top 3 undergrad by ad comms, though I personally think a great education can be gotten at a state school as well and don't get too hung up on "prestige" myself...but ad comms might?)
-I would be more limited as to how much I can raise my GPA, since my undergrad GPA would count on both AMCAS nationwide and TDMSAS Texas med school apps. Max GPAs possible (assuming 4.0 in all classes from now on, which may or may not actually happen):
-If 35 new semester hours taken: 3.22 cGPA (*assuming I did the AMCAS calcs correctly)
-If 45 new hrs: 3.25 cGPA
-If 55 new hrs: 3.31 cGPA
-If 65 new hrs: 3.35 cGPA
...though would 2-2.5 yrs be enough to get the new subjects on the MCAT in, as well? (Sociology, Psychology, Stats, etc.)

3. Option C: Formal Post Bacc for Career Changers (Out of State) 2-2.5 yrs without Academic Fresh Start, looking to apply MD
PROS:
-Same as above, less years before being eligible to apply for med school
-Possible "perceived" benefit by AdComs at having been at a formal post bacc program that may be deemed "more rigorous" (ex: Harvard Extension / HES, Upenn, Columbia post bacc, etc.)
-Possible linkages.... though I'm not sure if my undergrad GPA would rule me out completely as a candidate for linkage. I notice a lot of the linkages have min undergrad GPA requirements that are higher than my AMCAS one
CONS:
-Possibly slightly more expensive due to out of state cost of living and relocation
-Need to move out of state temporarily for post bacc (not sure if I would still be eligible for Texas residency when I apply to med schools later)​
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So that's my situation and my options. To any experienced SDNers who took the time to read my post, thanks so much in advance for reading and for your advice. I greatly appreciate any opinions from those who have been in similar situations or are more knowledgeable regarding med school admissions and post bacc programs.

SUMMARY: Basically, I can take 3-4 years on Post Bacc with Academic Fresh Start Law in Texas and really start over with a true 4.0 cGPA if I go that route and get all 4.0s (my old undergrad gets erased since >10 years ago) but be older when I apply... or take 2-2.5 years on Post Bacc without Academic Fresh Start and end with a 3.2-3.33 cGPA if I get 4.0 in all classes and be relatively younger than Option A when I apply.

What would you do if you were in my shoes?

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since you're already in Texas, fresh start is a reasonable option (those not already in TX need to establish domicile which adds time)

there is some recent noise about TX schools not being too open to admitting fresh start students. applying for a new bachelors means you have to go through the regular undergrad admissions process, and they can reject you for any reason they like. point being don't assume your preferred TX college is going to put out the red carpet for you.

with any of these options, you're betting that you'll get killer grades (ie 3.7+ in much harder coursework than you've ever seen before, in competition with america's raving obsessed premeds and the hopes and dreams of their parents) and that you'll get a killer MCAT score (ibid). in any case, you have to accept that (a) you might not get into med school at all, after all this work and time and money, or (b) you won't get into a TX med school, and/or (c) you will end up in DO school (a victory in every way but the ego) or the Carib (a trainwreck).

but BEFORE you get all crazy for medicine, there are two missing pieces of information that should scare you silly and give you nightmares:

1. what are public teaching hospitals like and what are sick patients like, and do you want to spend a whole lot of years in those hospitals with those patients and those healthcare providers before you have any option to choose your environment and patients? this is why premeds are expected to spend hundreds of hours doing clinical volunteering. if you have not yet cleaned puke off your arm, or held an obese infected leg on your shoulder for somebody else to debride it, or been chewed out by an over-60 wisened 4'9" nurse manager or PA or MA or administrator who smells like cigarettes and whose command of English and logic are really very concerning and whose authority you never ever thought you'd be subject to as a premed or med student or resident, if you've not spent substantial time in clinical environments that are oddly not at all like Grey's Anatomy such that if people are actually having sex in the call room it's way too disgusting to contemplate, then that's agenda item #1.

2. as above, with no science background and weak grades in liberal arts, ivy schmivy, you have no basis to assume that you'll be at the top of the class in the prereqs. 19 year olds with steel trap memories and no work experience and gaming addictions are gonna clean your clock. regularly. a conservative strategy would be to go take one reasonably difficult math or science class, such as a CC night class (ONE CLASS, people, JUST ONE) and see if you can pull an A. if not, then proceeding with a premed plan is reckless.

tl;dr: do some totally not sexy preparatory work to earn yourself a shot at the 10 years of almost totally not sexy work to get to the part that might be fairly sexy

best of luck to you.
 
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Thanks so much for taking the time to read my post and for your advice, Dr. Midlife.

Re: Clinical Experience and Reality Check - Definitely, and all of your points are good ones. I just started volunteering recently and have had a good experience thus far...unfortunately, there aren't enough volunteer hours to go around, though (I called 5-6 local hospitals, as well as a few free clinics, and they also stated they have too many volunteers and a long wait list), so I'm only able to get a few hrs every 1-2 weeks. The volunteers also don't seem to get any truly substantial contact with patients - most of it tends to be wheeling them between departments and occasionally helping clean a patient's room or fetching items for nurses. (I'd love to have the chance to be able to help a puking patient and especially see what it's like taking care of someone puking on my arm! Alas, these types of volunteer opportunities seem hard to come by.) I did have the benefit of having shadowed a grandparent who was a doctor when I was much, much younger, and have also spent extensive time in hospitals due to taking care of a sick family member...but I am in definite need of beefing up my recent clinical experience. I did find 1-2 local doctors to shadow for a day, but I'm also looking for more shadowing opportunities, especially in different specialties. Successfully securing opportunities for clinical experience has been a challenge. Do you happen to have any advice on finding and obtaining "substantial," real clinical experience as a Non Trad volunteer and/or shadower by any chance?

Re: Testing the Waters with 1 Class First - Great suggestion, and I recall reading another post I think you made with this advice in another thread, as well. I may very well be humbled and not get the 4.0s or near 4.0s I need (however confident I may be), since it's been years since I took any kind of class in an academic setting at all, even if I do work hard and actually show up for class (unlike my undergrad experience, which I am still kicking myself for retroactively). I did look into taking a night class at my local 4 yr state university, but they unfortunately don't have night classes in math / science. I think a few CCs might, but I spoke with 2 people from TMDSAS and AMCAS admissions over the phone - both of whom advised against taking any core classes at a community college. Have you found math / science classes taken at a CC to be perceived negatively during the potential application process, as well, since any classes I take to test the waters would probably fall under the "pre-req" category...?

Re: Admissions - I guess I'm fortunate in that I graduated as #1 at my public high school in Texas, so I am granted automatic admission into any Texas state school (top 10% of students from every public Texas high school is granted automatic admission for UT schools). I did see that written on the admissions application, so it looks like that rule still applies. Hopefully that means not having to worry about getting admission as a 2nd bachelor's degree seeking student if I apply -fingers crossed.

You're right that I need to do more (and lots of) unsexy preparatory work before deciding to going full steam ahead - and quickly. The deadline for applications for fall admissions for undergrad classes at my local state school are actually in a week or so. If I miss it, I may not be able to take classes until Spring 2017 or even Fall 2017 if local schools don't offer the first semester science courses (Chem 1, Physics 1, Biol 1, etc.) during spring quarter, which would push back my timeline by a year.

I've also figured out that being able to work Full Time in my career while doing a post bacc may be somewhat possible if I relocate to a state with weekend/evening classes but may not be a smart course of action - historically, I've worked about 80+ hours per week in my demanding corporate job (often pulling all nighters) for the past decade or so, so my grades may suffer if I try to work full time + also take classes. As you mentioned, there's also a very real risk that I may put in 2-4 years of post bacc work (and essentially be putting my prior career on hold with no guarantees of being able to resume it after that long of a break on my resume) and not be able to get into any medical school at all. (From this forum, I've already gleaned that Caribbean is not worth it.) That's one of the scary parts of this decision. I'd be curious to hear what those Non Trad Career Changers who couldn't get into med school or couldn't hack it in post bacc ended up doing or having as a fallback plan... What can one do with a 2nd bachelor's or post bacc certificate in Biology anyway...? Or what does one do if one fails to get into med school as a career changer and can't pursue pre-med without putting one's first career on hold?

Thanks again for weighing in. Your advice is appreciated!

Any opinions or advice you or anyone else on the forum may have regarding my situation (and especially the 3 post bacc options mentioned in my original post - ex: to do a Texas Academic Fresh Start with a 3-4 year post bacc vs. No Academic Fresh Start 2-2.5 year post bacc) are appreciated and welcome. Thanks again, fellow SDNers!
 
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Re: Clinical Experience and Reality Check - ... Do you happen to have any advice on finding and obtaining "substantial," real clinical experience as a Non Trad volunteer and/or shadower by any chance?

Looking for clinical experiences outside of the normal hospital setting, like nursing homes, dialysis centers, hospice centers, etc., might give you some more options and flexibility for volunteering and shadowing. It could also provide you with experiences that might set you apart from other applicants in a positive way.

Re: Admissions - I guess I'm fortunate in that I graduated as #1 at my public high school in Texas, so I am granted automatic admission into any Texas state school (top 10% of students from every public Texas high school is granted automatic admission for UT schools). I did see that written on the admissions application, so it looks like that rule still applies. Hopefully that means not having to worry about getting admission as a 2nd bachelor's degree seeking student if I apply -fingers crossed.

Unfortunately, that does not appear to be the case for you anymore. Please see the 3rd point below:

"If you’re in the top 10% of your high school graduating class, you’re eligible for automatic admission to any public university in Texas. To meet the requirements for automatic admission, you must:

  • Graduate in the top 10% of your class at a public or private high school in Texas, or
  • Graduate in the top 10% of your class from a high school operated by the U.S. Department of Defense and be a Texas resident or eligible to pay resident tuition;
  • Enroll in college no more than two years after graduating from high school; and
  • Submit an application to a Texas public university for admission before the application deadline. (Check with the university for specific deadlines)."
(http://www.collegeforalltexans.com/?objectid=6D0B8C2F-C987-12B0-27CAFED91FACC7FB)

I hope that helps in your future planning. Good luck in your pursuits, and please have a great day.
 
If you have a VA hospital near you (if you're in a major city in Texas, you do) they have a pretty streamlined process to become a volunteer. Once you're in the door you can shop yourself around to whatever department you'd prefer.

Just a thought, depending on your drive to do medicine, and because you already have sweet job; perhaps you could keep the $$$corporate gig and ramp up your volunteerism once you find a gig you find fulfilling. In one of the organizations I volunteer with, most of the volunteers are college students, but a few are very successful businessmen/women with zero ulterior motive other that to give back. Makes the rest of us feel awful, haha.
 
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there is some recent noise about TX schools not being too open to admitting fresh start students.

best of luck to you.

You mean med schools? or do you mean undergrad? As far as I understand the process, its state law = issues with state funding if you violate it.
 
undergrad. there's no requirement that a student be accepted by an undergrad school for fresh start. admission is at the discretion of admissions. official info sources are easy to google & easy to read.
 
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