32 Year Old Lawyer

[trilobite]

I am a 32 year old lawyer in New York City. I graduated from NYU with a double major in biochemistry and economics and overall GPA of 3.7. I went to NYU Law School and graduated with a GPA of 3.3 (top third). I practiced law for the last eight years, but I am seriously considering a career change into medicine. I have really enjoyed my career as an attorney. However, my mother had been very sick over the last few years, and I had to help her with her treatment. I strongly feel that I could do much more to help society as a doctor than as a lawyer. I have wanted to become a doctor previously but this recent experience really brought things to a head.

From what I can tell, I am a super-non-trad. I cannot apply to post-bacc programs because I took too many science courses. The problem is, of course, that I graduated from college over ten years ago. Even if I do exceptionally well on my MCATs, it will still be an uphill fight to get into medical school without a letter of recommendation from health sciences professors. I understand that medical schools may blanch at a guy whose last science course was a decade ago. Being a lawyer might help my application because I did well in a very difficult law school. However, I would like to focus on addressing my deficiencies.

At this point, my game plan is to aim at applying for matriculation for Fall, 2016. I am going to start preparing for the April 2015 MCAT. I will have to make up some science classes. For example, I did not take biology. I took Physics III after using AP credit for Physics I and I. If I am unsuccessful for Fall 2016, I'll try again for Fall 2017.

I would welcome and appreciate advice on how I should proceed. In particular, I would like to know where I should take required science classes, and which classes I should take in addition to bio. Recommendations on MCAT courses for the April 2015 exam would be very useful, as would any suggestions on where to volunteer.

Thank you for your help!

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[2Pints]

Go to the websites of the schools you are really interested in and you can see lists of required/recommended classes. You can usually see if the school would accept your AP classes. Some won't. If that info isn't on their website, then it definitively is on the MSAR. Call the schools you are interested in and ask which types of LORs would be acceptable. Most schools take into consideration that you are a non-trad and won't require science professors. They would accept letters from employers or volunteer coordinators instead.

As for types of volunteering, I've really enjoyed volunteering with hospice. Lots of "hands-on" experience and my schedule is really flexible. I get to work with the clients instead of having set shifts, which is really difficult to do when working two jobs. You'll also need shadowing hours and look into research. Lots of information on SDN with exact numbers.

The upcoming application cycle seems like it's pretty far away but with classes on top of studying for the MCAT and beefing up your application there's a lot of work. There are a lot of forums with MCAT prep information but my guess is a lot will be changing with the new MCAT. You'll have to decide if you are motivated to study on your own or if you'll need a prep course. They are expensive and the worst part for me was the schedule didn't work with my jobs. I ended up going with Exam Crackers for my books and wasn't thrilled with them. Had to supplement a lot. I would suggest looking into Chad's videos at www.coursesaver.com as one supplement. They were pretty basic but helpful with concepts that I hadn't seen in 10 years. Not sure how he's going to handle new content. I also took almost all of the Gold Standard exams on top of what was offered through AAMC.

Good luck! It's quite the journey as a non-trad applicant but if this really is what you want to do...it's exciting too.

 

[Law2Doc]

I am a 32 year old lawyer in New York City. I graduated from NYU with a double major in biochemistry and economics and overall GPA of 3.7. I went to NYU Law School and graduated with a GPA of 3.3 (top third). I practiced law for the last eight years, but I am seriously considering a career change into medicine. I have really enjoyed my career as an attorney. However, my mother had been very sick over the last few years, and I had to help her with her treatment. I strongly feel that I could do much more to help society as a doctor than as a lawyer. I have wanted to become a doctor previously but this recent experience really brought things to a head.

From what I can tell, I am a super-non-trad. I cannot apply to post-bacc programs because I took too many science courses. The problem is, of course, that I graduated from college over ten years ago. Even if I do exceptionally well on my MCATs, it will still be an uphill fight to get into medical school without a letter of recommendation from health sciences professors. I understand that medical schools may blanch at a guy whose last science course was a decade ago. Being a lawyer might help my application because I did well in a very difficult law school. However, I would like to focus on addressing my deficiencies.

At this point, my game plan is to aim at applying for matriculation for Fall, 2016. I am going to start preparing for the April 2015 MCAT. I will have to make up some science classes. For example, I did not take biology. I took Physics III after using AP credit for Physics I and I. If I am unsuccessful for Fall 2016, I'll try again for Fall 2017.

I would welcome and appreciate advice on how I should proceed. In particular, I would like to know where I should take required science classes, and which classes I should take in addition to bio. Recommendations on MCAT courses for the April 2015 exam would be very useful, as would any suggestions on where to volunteer.

Thank you for your help!

There are many threads on lawyers making the jump, so I encourage you to look at the advice on those. You will want to find an open enrollment place, take whatever science prerequisites you haven't taken and maybe a couple of upper levels just to show some recent success in science courses. Most importantly you will need some health related ECs. As a career changer you really need to show you looked before you leaped. Some nebulous "helping more people in medicine than law " might fly for a traditional applicant but a nontrad giving up a professional career better have a LOT more meat on those bones.

I also wouldn't be so focused on an April MCAT because you still have a lot to get under your belt. Setting artificial deadlines will sink you in this process. Get all your ducks in a row and then pull the trigger. Finish the prereqs and be scoring well on full length practice tests before you take the mcat.

 

[Traumweber]

I am a 32 year old lawyer in New York City. I graduated from NYU with a double major in biochemistry and economics and overall GPA of 3.7. I went to NYU Law School and graduated with a GPA of 3.3 (top third). I practiced law for the last eight years, but I am seriously considering a career change into medicine. I have really enjoyed my career as an attorney. However, my mother had been very sick over the last few years, and I had to help her with her treatment. I strongly feel that I could do much more to help society as a doctor than as a lawyer. I have wanted to become a doctor previously but this recent experience really brought things to a head.

From what I can tell, I am a super-non-trad. I cannot apply to post-bacc programs because I took too many science courses. The problem is, of course, that I graduated from college over ten years ago. Even if I do exceptionally well on my MCATs, it will still be an uphill fight to get into medical school without a letter of recommendation from health sciences professors. I understand that medical schools may blanch at a guy whose last science course was a decade ago. Being a lawyer might help my application because I did well in a very difficult law school. However, I would like to focus on addressing my deficiencies.

At this point, my game plan is to aim at applying for matriculation for Fall, 2016. I am going to start preparing for the April 2015 MCAT. I will have to make up some science classes. For example, I did not take biology. I took Physics III after using AP credit for Physics I and I. If I am unsuccessful for Fall 2016, I'll try again for Fall 2017.

I would welcome and appreciate advice on how I should proceed. In particular, I would like to know where I should take required science classes, and which classes I should take in addition to bio. Recommendations on MCAT courses for the April 2015 exam would be very useful, as would any suggestions on where to volunteer.

Thank you for your help!

Your story mirrors mine in many ways... Although I've wanted to be a physician all my life, I never took it seriously(too many other complications) until last year. The spark was lit early last year when I had to take care of my dad before his passing away.
I am 32 and a research engineer(in the energy area for the past 6 years), and started taking pre-reqs last fall and finished the bio and orgo, just took the MCAT, and also will soon have published biomedical research work that I am working on, in a voluntarily capacity. I am currently starting the shadowing process (thankfully I have been volunteering at various capacities all through my life).
it has been a terribly busy year considering I still hold my full time job, but the passion has kept me going without feeling any exhaustion.
Make sure you identify the program's you want to target. Call the dean of admissions and discuss your case (call when it isn't peak admissions season, when they are liable to spend more time with you) before you take any classes. some schools may want you to retake classes since it has been more than 6 years and others may waive. I strongly suggest taking classes at a 4 year university.
Also start shadowing and volunteering (hospitals would help) to demonstrate to yourself and to the med school that this is truly your path.
My suggestion is to think that you are no different than a traditional applicant, and do all you can to meet the same standards they will bring to the table. Your NonTrad experience will be a bonus, and not a substitute in most cases. If you are truly committed to this path, think about a 2017 entry as well. That way, you will have time to build a strong Case.

 

[Law2Doc]

Your story mirrors mine in many ways... Although I've wanted to be a physician all my life, I never took it seriously(too many other complications) until last year. The spark was lit early last year when I had to take care of my dad before his passing away.
I am 32 and a research engineer(in the energy area for the past 6 years), and started taking pre-reqs last fall and finished the bio and orgo, just took the MCAT, and also will soon have published biomedical research work that I am working on, in a voluntarily capacity. I am currently starting the shadowing process (thankfully I have been volunteering at various capacities all through my life).
it has been a terribly busy year considering I still hold my full time job, but the passion has kept me going without feeling any exhaustion.
Make sure you identify the program's you want to target. Call the dean of admissions and discuss your case (call when it isn't peak admissions season, when they are liable to spend more time with you) before you take any classes. some schools may want you to retake classes since it has been more than 6 years and others may waive. I strongly suggest taking classes at a 4 year university.
Also start shadowing and volunteering (hospitals would help) to demonstrate to yourself and to the med school that this is truly your path.
My suggestion is to think that you are no different than a traditional applicant, and do all you can to meet the same standards they will bring to the table. Your NonTrad experience will be a bonus, and not a substitute in most cases. If you are truly committed to this path, think about a 2017 entry as well. That way, you will have time to build a strong Case.

Mostly agree with this post but with a caveat about identifying "programs you want to target". Don't sell yourself on one or two places. Those will frequently be places you wont get. You are going to want to apply broadly and widely. This isn't a "check the box and you are in" process - a place has to feel you are subjectively a good fit for the class they are putting together. Some will and some won't and it may not be the ones you suspect or want or think you belong at. So absolutely don't sell yourself on one or two places. you can and should take any free advice from them you can get but they had better not be the only targets.

 

[ehwhatsupdoc]

I'm also in NYC. For volunteering there's a lot of soup kitchens run by Churches in the city. I think something like that is a good place to start. You could also utilize your legal expertise and volunteer your time for some non-profit group that helps immigrants with their paperwork or citizenship process. Check out https://www.newyorkcares.org/ or http://www.nycservice.org/search/ . Also I think volunteering to help the under-served carries more weight than volunteering in a hospital (a lot of the hospital volunteers don't have direct patient care). I think shadowing physicians will give you a better view of medicine than volunteering in a hospital. Another idea for volunteering is find a Volunteer Ambulance Corps near your where you can get your EMT-B and volunteer on the weekends. Also for classes, I would look for anything that you can fit into your schedule and go as a non-degree student. The CUNYs have a lot of classes in the evening. Worst case scenario, you take them online or SUNY Learning network. Just be careful about taking pre-reqs online, some schools don't accept it. Also don't worry so much about undergrad recommendation letters, you really just need one from a science professor, the rest can come from a higher up at your firm, and a Doctor you shadowed.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm also in NYC. For volunteering there's a lot of soup kitchens run by Churches in the city. I think something like that is a good place to start. You could also utilize your legal expertise and volunteer your time for some non-profit group that helps immigrants with their paperwork or citizenship process. Check out https://www.newyorkcares.org/ or http://www.nycservice.org/search/ . Also I think volunteering to help the under-served carries more weight than volunteering in a hospital (a lot of the hospital volunteers don't have direct patient care). I think shadowing physicians will give you a better view of medicine than volunteering in a hospital. Another idea for volunteering is find a Volunteer Ambulance Corps near your where you can get your EMT-B and volunteer on the weekends. Also for classes, I would look for anything that you can fit into your schedule and go as a non-degree student. The CUNYs have a lot of classes in the evening. Worst case scenario, you take them online or SUNY Learning network. Just be careful about taking pre-reqs online, some schools don't accept it. Also don't worry so much about undergrad recommendation letters, you really just need one from a science professor, the rest can come from a higher up at your firm, and a Doctor you shadowed.

1. Don't take the prereqs online. If you aren't in the military abroad you want to take them in person. You can't really do the labs online anyhow.

2. While soup kitchen type volunteering is nice, and some state schools certainly like to see some of these more general charitable efforts, when you are coming from a non-health related career, you really need health related activities more than anything else. Helping a sick family member through treatment doesn't really count as a health related experience and will come off as a bit cliche in an application -- the OP needs some other experiences where the OP deals with unrelated patients, doctors, and their interrelationships. So in OPs case a soup kitchen would be really bad use of his limited time. He needs to be in a hospital or health care setting racking up experiences he can use to sell as to why medicine, and to make sure he will even enjoy medicine. He's not a college Premed, the impetus to jump from law to medicine better be a whole lot more then "helping people". Nobody cares if he's a good person or not. They care that he's had sufficiently compelling health care experiences that they can understand why he would give up a non health related professional career for a decade of training.

 

[Promethean]

Your plan sounds pretty solid. You will get a lot of conflicting advice here, and some discouragement, so take it all in and sift it for the useful bits.

People older than you have come from more unlikely first careers. You aren't super-nontrad. You are just nontrad. On SDN, kids who have taken a gap year consider themselves nontraditional.

You have a great story for your PS and the training to craft a compelling argument for why they should let you in. There are lots of folks who are both physicians and lawyers. You do need to get some clinical experience, but your volunteer experience need not be clinical. Presumably you have done some probono work that you can hold up as volunteer experience. You just need to put some time in working with patients, so that they will be able to see that you know what you are getting yourself into. This may be a start at the bottom approach, but could you get a part time job working in a hospital or nursing home providing direct patient care? Or scribing... sure, but everyone scribes. If you want to stand out, be the guy who isn't above helping someone on and off a bedpan. Even a couple shifts a month for a few months would be enough. You will collect some great stories for your interviews, and prove that you really do want to move from a fairly clean/office kind of job to the messy world of patient care.

You have so many options for taking classes. You don't need a formal post-bacc program, but recent exposure to the pre-reqs will help you score like a boss on the MCAT. Just do-it-yourself by enrolling somewhere as a non-degree seeking student and start knocking out classes. I did all mine at community college. Some people turn their noses up at that, but since I nailed the MCAT, it is hard to argue that I didn't get a quality education there.

Yes, check the reqs at the various schools and get started taking classes this spring and summer. Remember that you don't have to have all of your pre-reqs done before you apply... I've been accepted and I still have a pre-req to do in the spring. As long as you get some classes done in the spring, your application will still be taken seriously. Most people apply at the end of their junior year of undergrad, so they still have a year of work left to do.

Good luck!

 

[Law2Doc]

Your plan sounds pretty solid. You will get a lot of conflicting advice here, and some discouragement, so take it all in and sift it for the useful bits.

People older than you have come from more unlikely first careers. You aren't super-nontrad. You are just nontrad. On SDN, kids who have taken a gap year consider themselves nontraditional.

You have a great story for your PS and the training to craft a compelling argument for why they should let you in. There are lots of folks who are both physicians and lawyers. You do need to get some clinical experience, but your volunteer experience need not be clinical. Presumably you have done some probono work that you can hold up as volunteer experience. You just need to put some time in working with patients, so that they will be able to see that you know what you are getting yourself into. This may be a start at the bottom approach, but could you get a part time job working in a hospital or nursing home providing direct patient care? Or scribing... sure, but everyone scribes. If you want to stand out, be the guy who isn't above helping someone on and off a bedpan. Even a couple shifts a month for a few months would be enough. You will collect some great stories for your interviews, and prove that you really do want to move from a fairly clean/office kind of job to the messy world of patient care.

You have so many options for taking classes. You don't need a formal post-bacc program, but recent exposure to the pre-reqs will help you score like a boss on the MCAT. Just do-it-yourself by enrolling somewhere as a non-degree seeking student and start knocking out classes. I did all mine at community college. Some people turn their noses up at that, but since I nailed the MCAT, it is hard to argue that I didn't get a quality education there.

Yes, check the reqs at the various schools and get started taking classes this spring and summer. Remember that you don't have to have all of your pre-reqs done before you apply... I've been accepted and I still have a pre-req to do in the spring. As long as you get some classes done in the spring, your application will still be taken seriously. Most people apply at the end of their junior year of undergrad, so they still have a year of work left to do.

Good luck!

The dig at community college has nothing to do with the quality of education, rather it has to do with the quality of competition. Over the years too many premeds have gone outside of their home schools in order to ace harder courses and burned this bridge for future generations. Your mcat result doesn't mean much re this -- schools will be unable to discern whether you got the A in orgo at a CC because you did well or because you were in a class full of C students making you look better than you really were.

I wouldn't try to extrapolate your own success despite CCs to be a general rule. It isn't.

 

[Promethean]

The dig at community college has nothing to do with the quality of education, rather it has to do with the quality of competition. Over the years too many premeds have gone outside of their home schools in order to ace harder courses and burned this bridge for future generations. Your mcat result doesn't mean much re this -- schools will be unable to discern whether you got the A in orgo at a CC because you did well or because you were in a class full of C students making you look better than you really were.

I wouldn't try to extrapolate your own success despite CCs to be a general rule. It isn't.

I think it really matters whether you are learning the information for the first time at a CC, or whether you are simply going there to fulfill a requirement, and I think that IS obvious from past academic record and MCAT score.

If OP pulls a 37 on the test, and has taken Physics II plus AP credit in Physics I & II, then actually taking Physics I & II at a community college (and of course getting A's) isn't going to look bad. My advice on this point is tailored to the person. I would give different advice to someone currently enrolled in undergrad at a 4 year school.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think it really matters whether you are learning the information for the first time at a CC, or whether you are simply going there to fulfill a requirement, and I think that IS obvious from past academic record and MCAT score.

If OP pulls a 37 on the test, and has taken Physics II plus AP credit in Physics I & II, then actually taking Physics I & II at a community college (and of course getting A's) isn't going to look bad. My advice on this point is tailored to the person. I would give different advice to someone currently enrolled in undergrad at a 4 year school.

It certainly looks worse if you go outside your home school to take the harder courses at a CC but to a lot of places even if you aren't currently enrolled anyplace if you have a choice as to where to take courses and pick the CC it still raises suspicion that you are trying to stack the decks. Whether true or not that's the concern. Best not to go down that road if there are other options. And again this has nothing to do with the quality of education, and how you ultimately do on the mcat won't be persuasive.

 

[Goro]

To follow up on my learned colleague's comments, we want to see you do clinical volunteering so that we know you understand what you're getting into, and that you really want to be around sick people and their families for the next 30+ years. In addition, shadowing doctors let's you know what a doctor's day is like, and let's you compare the different medical specialties.

2. While soup kitchen type volunteering is nice, and some state schools certainly like to see some of these more general charitable efforts, when you are coming from a non-health related career, you really need health related activities more than anything else. Helping a sick family member through treatment doesn't really count as a health related experience and will come off as a bit cliche in an application -- the OP needs some other experiences where the OP deals with unrelated patients, doctors, and their interrelationships. So in OPs case a soup kitchen would be really bad use of his limited time. He needs to be in a hospital or health care setting racking up experiences he can use to sell as to why medicine, and to make sure he will even enjoy medicine. He's not a college Premed, the impetus to jump from law to medicine better be a whole lot more then "helping people". Nobody cares if he's a good person or not. They care that he's had sufficiently compelling health care experiences that they can understand why he would give up a non health related professional career for a decade of training.

 

[ehwhatsupdoc]

The reason why I downplay hospital volunteering is because in most cases volunteers don't do much of anything worthwhile. You can check this thread on it http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/what-do-you-do-while-volunteering-in-a-hospital.1054795/ Most of the time it'll be doing things like stocking, filing, and greeting patients. You can get a better idea of the ins and outs of medicine from shadowing. The throngs of premeds who volunteer in a hospital are only doing it to help make themselves a better applicant. How much you want to bet that these "dedicated" volunteers will continue volunteering in a hospital once they get into medical school? The truth is they all drop the volunteering once they get int. I would focus on volunteering for a cause you care about and have something to offer and where you could see yourself continue doing even after getting admission into medical school. This will also help cultivate compassion which will be helpful in preventing cynicism as you go through the grueling process of becoming a Doctor. If you have any interest in emergency medicine than by all means pursue that route for volunteering experience and it's something you can do while in medical school. I've met EMTs and Paramedics that volunteered there time while in medical school. If you can find a hospital volunteer position that is actually meaningful than that would be great.

 

[Promethean]

The reason why I downplay hospital volunteering is because in most cases volunteers don't do much of anything worthwhile.

This is why I recommend getting a clinical job for pay rather than to volunteer in the hospital. Volunteers are often given busywork unrelated to patient care. Patient care techs are run ragged, but they see a lot more actual patient care.

 

[trilobite]

Thank you all very much for your insight. The biggest decision I face is whether or not I should aim at Fall 2016 or Fall 2017. I was planning on a Fall 2016 matriculation because: (1) why wait another year; and (2) why risk a bad cycle in Fall 2017 to be pushed into Fall 2018? At the same time, rushing into a bad cycle for Fall 2016 is going to be make life harder when attacking Fall 2017. I hope aiming for Fall 2016 isn't a bad idea.

In fact, I was planning on the April/May 2015 MCAT mainly as a decision point. I have signed up for the Kaplan course that ends in May 2015 because it works out better from a scheduling standpoint. But the point remains that I have been out of undergrad for a long time. I need a deadline to force myself to study my butt off for this thing. If I don't do well on the final Kaplan tests going into the MCAT, I will probably aim for a Fall 2017 cycle to really cram and bust my butt rather than take a bad score. If I do well on the MCAT, then I think aiming at Fall 2016 would be a plausible strategy.

I will take classes this Spring and Summer to meet the prerequisites, and perhaps more importantly, try to get some recommendations from a professor who has recently taught me. I have signed up for CUNY classes, which are hard to work around but still doable.

As for volunteering, I really would not want to get coffee for doctors. I don't have the time for an EMT (unfortunately) on top of work, MCATs, and classes. However, I do know quite a few doctors and I hope I can wrangle some sort of shadowing arrangement where I can actually do something "useful." I mean, I'm not a medical professional so it's not like I'm going to be doing procedures, but I'd rather not be working with high school volunteers greeting patients at the door. I hope that isn't patronizing, but I do feel like I should be more useful than high school kids.

Happy New Years to all.

 

[Goro]

Not all volunteering has to be in a hospital. Think clinics, Planned Parenthood, crisis hotlines, nursing homes or hospice.

As for volunteering, I really would not want to get coffee for doctors. I don't have the time for an EMT (unfortunately) on top of work, MCATs, and classes. However, I do know quite a few doctors and I hope I can wrangle some sort of shadowing arrangement where I can actually do something "useful." I mean, I'm not a medical professional so it's not like I'm going to be doing procedures, but I'd rather not be working with high school volunteers greeting patients at the door. I hope that isn't patronizing, but I do feel like I should be more useful than high school kids.

 

[QofQuimica]

All right, OP, now that's a display of the kind of team spirit any adcom would salivate over! Wouldn't want anyone to confuse you with a HS kid and ask you to do something useful while volunteering like actually talk to patients and help them find things. And no worries, no one will expect you to do anything that would actually be nice or helpful, like, I don't know, getting coffee for people who are working while you're standing around watching them and trying to stay out of their way.

(All kidding aside, yes, your attitude sucks. I recommend reconsidering it if you are serious about pursuing this career path. Because as a premed, you can't do anything useful for me in the hospital any more than I can do anything useful for you at your job if I just showed up there untrained one day. And I'd take a teenager with a positive attitude over a professional who's too good to get his hands dirty any night of the week and twice on weekends and holidays.)

 

[Law2Doc]

All right, OP, now that's a display of the kind of team spirit any adcom would salivate over! Wouldn't want anyone to confuse you with a HS kid and ask you to do something useful while volunteering like actually talk to patients and help them find things. And no worries, no one will expect you to do anything that would actually be nice or helpful, like, I don't know, getting coffee for people who are working while you're standing around watching them and trying to stay out of their way.

(All kidding aside, yes, your attitude sucks. I recommend reconsidering it if you are serious about pursuing this career path. Because as a premed, you can't do anything useful for me in the hospital any more than I can do anything useful for you at your job if I just showed up there untrained one day. And I'd take a teenager with a positive attitude over a professional who's too good to get his hands dirty any night of the week and twice on weekends and holidays.)

Agree. OP, throughout this whole career path you aren't going to add more value than those 15 years your junior. So all you have to sell is a professionals work ethic. A notion that no job is too small and that you are always ready to roll up sleeves and get dirty. So if some young doctor needs you to do something menial, you need to get used to going out of your way to make sure s/he doesn't feel weird asking you, just like any premed. You have to prove yourself every step of the way and the premed game is all about being eager for even the most mundane chores.

 

[ehwhatsupdoc]

Agree. OP, throughout this whole career path you aren't going to add more value than those 15 years your senior. So all you have to sell is a professionals work ethic. A notion that no job is too small and that you are always ready to roll up sleeves and get dirty. So if some young doctor needs you to do something menial, you need to get used to going out of your way to make sure s/he doesn't feel weird asking you, just like any premed. You have to prove yourself every step of the way and the premed game is all about being eager for even the most mundane chores.

Is this also typical during residency? Do seniors and attendings often give the residents under them menial tasks, such as demanding you get them coffee? Personally I don't see how that would be a good learning environment or promote a good working relationship. I hear of stories of pervasive abuse from superiors during residency.

 

[Law2Doc]

Is this also typical during residency? Do seniors and attendings often give the residents under them menial tasks, such as demanding you get them coffee? Personally I don't see how that would be a good learning environment or promote a good working relationship. I hear of stories of pervasive abuse from superiors during residency.

No of course not. Getting coffee would be an unusual request and few residents would ask. Premeds for sure don't get abused -- they aren't stuck there so you couldn't abuse them if you wanted to. Residents are more at the mercy but honestly the number of times seniors and attendings bought me coffee as a junior far outweighed the reverse. However I definitely ran to pick up take out for the team (including me) a night or two as a med student, and it wouldn't be far fetched to ask a premed to do the same if they were staying. These kinds of requests are excessively rare but it's only an issue for those who make issues out of it. If you have the attitude that you are happy to help you really do get to see and do more. Everything is about attitude in this field. Having a good one tends to get you further.

 

[QofQuimica]

Is this also typical during residency? Do seniors and attendings often give the residents under them menial tasks, such as demanding you get them coffee? Personally I don't see how that would be a good learning environment or promote a good working relationship. I hear of stories of pervasive abuse from superiors during residency.

Sheer nonsense. While in training, I was never "demanded" to get any food for anyone, as a student or as a resident. As a med student, I did volunteer to get food at times (always paid for by the attending or senior) because I was the most expendable member of the team in terms of being able to physically leave to pick up the food. And now as an attending, everyone else in the hospital except me gets a mandated lunch break with someone to cover them. Do I appreciate it when one of my non-attending coworkers takes pity on the fact that I've been working for 8-9 hours with no meal break? Heck yes. Do I expect it? No, I don't expect any mercy from anyone, not even you. But it does restore my faith in humanity a bit whenever someone shows some common human decency by bringing me back something too. Even if it's cafeteria fries.