38 MCAT, 3.6 GPA - What Went Wrong?

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AndyQC

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I submitted my AMCAS early this cycle and applied to about fourteen schools: everywhere in NM (my home state), AZ, CA, and NV. I only received three IIs:

UNM - Rejected
University of Arizona - Rejected
USC - WL

The purpose of this thread is to determine where I went wrong and if I should reapply or look into alternate career paths. I am an older non-trad with a child and can't move much further east, so I'm fairly limited in where I can apply. If I do apply again, it will have to be in WA, OR, CA, AZ, NV, and NM.

Below is a very brief summary of the AMCAS application I submitted last June. Feedback is appreciated.

Academic
Major: Exercise Physiology
GPA: 3.6 (strong upward trend; 4.0 for past two years with straight A's in pre-req courses)
MCAT: 38 (13/13/12)

Volunteering
300 hours as patient companion for MS charity organization
300 hours at community clinic in underserved area of NM

Shadowing
30 hours - primary care and neurology

Research
50 hours in exercise physiology lab (funding pulled and lost position midway through project)
Poster presentation at small conference

Work Experience
1000s of hours as physical therapy aide
1000s of hours as tech support for software company
(Self-supported throughout college)

Miscellaneous
Hobbies - writing (published in several major magazines)
Honors - Dean's List and award for community service
LORs - very strong; knew my professors very well
PS - went through 8-10 drafts; one interviewer said that it was one of the best he had seen

Since submitting my application, I have volunteered at a hospice (~400 hours) and shadowed several more physicians (48 hours). However, I have failed to secure a position in a laboratory and still have very limited research experience. I am still working full-time in tech support.

Considering that I have not improved my application much since last year, should I reapply? Consider a different career? Take another year off? I'm just a few months shy of my 30th birthday and I really need to figure out what I am going to do with my life. Failing to land an acceptance this cycle has been deeply disappointing. I knew that my application was fairly mediocre, but I thought that I had an excellent shot at my state school considering my LizzyM is well above their average.

Thank you for any advice.

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I had similar stats to you and also being older as an applicant. You sound great on what you listed. You are in a bit of dilemma if you can only apply to western states. To note the west is a lot more competitive especially with so many state schools that accept very few out of state. I'd say you're biggest problem was not applying to a lot more schools all over. If you want to get in you're going to have to open up your application pool and apply more broadly. I applied from Utah and I only received 2 interviews in the west region, the other 15 I got were midwest and east. Good luck.
 
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Is it possible you missed because you didn't have research? Or was it because you didn't have much, if any, leadership? Did you do any clubs/ECs while in college? Finally, what was your Sgpa? Could you explain why the 3.6 when you ended up with a strong upward trend and 4.0 in pre-reqs? My guess is that being locked into a tighter geographic area limited you. Also NM is really looking to accept URM/Native Americans and Hispanic, and without that, their spaces were limited.
 
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I had similar stats to you and also being older as an applicant. You sound great on what you listed. You are in a bit of dilemma if you can only apply to western states. To note the west is a lot more competitive especially with so many state schools that accept very few out of state. I'd say you're biggest problem was not applying to a lot more schools all over. If you want to get in you're going to have to open up your application pool and apply more broadly. I applied from Utah and I only received 2 interviews in the west region, the other 15 I got were midwest and east. Good luck.

Thanks, Doug. I was aware that I was applying rather top heavy, but unfortunately I didn't really have much of a choice. It would not be feasible to move across the country; I only see my son twice a month as is. I thought that my state school would serve as a safety. Unfortunately, it's clear now that there are no guarantees in this process.

Is it possible you missed because you didn't have research? Or was it because you didn't have much, if any, leadership? Did you do any clubs/ECs while in college? Finally, what was your Sgpa? Could you explain why the 3.6 when you ended up with a strong upward trend and 4.0 in pre-reqs? My guess is that being locked into a tighter geographic area limited you. Also NM is really looking to accept URM/Native Americans and Hispanic, and without that, their spaces were limited.

You have some very good points. I did apply for several research positions, but the only one I was offered required a 20 hour/week commitment. I would have loved to have accepted, but it just wasn't an option with my work schedule.

My sGPA was roughly the same as my cGPA. I had to do some major grade repair from some F's many (10+) years ago. It's amazing how two bad semesters can drag down your GPA so much! If it wasn't for that, I would have had a GPA ~ 3.98.

Regarding leadership - yes, I think that was a major problem. I really wish I had been more involved in clubs and activities as an undergraduate student. I wasn't a biology major and wasn't even aware of all the pre-med activities that were available. My approach was just to keep my head down and get the best grades I could. I succeeded on that front, but it seems that wasn't enough to land an acceptance. And, in my defense, there are only so many hours in a day; working 40+ hours per week, maintaining a full-time schedule, volunteering, and traveling twice a month left little room for other activities.

Thanks again for your feedback.
 
Work on your interview skills. Add DO programs to your list.... you have two in AZ, two in Cali, one in NV and one more in CO. It's possible you may have red flag in your packet or LOR too. Contact the Deans of the schools that rejected you to get feedback on why you were rejected.
 
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Andy, maybe I'm misunderstanding your reluctance to try going a bit farther afield, but is it because you want to be close to your son? If you actually see him just twice a month, could that be something that could possibly change if your circumstances put you elsewhere? For instance, could you arrange some longer but fewer times, like during the summer or during a school break?

You also mentioned you had a few Fs in your first two years. Did you explain them at all in your application? Even if that's over ten years ago, grades like that are eye-opening.
 
Work on your interview skills. Add DO programs to your list.... you have two in AZ, two in Cali, one in NV and one more in CO. It's possible you may have red flag in your packet or LOR too. Contact the Deans of the schools that rejected you to get feedback on why you were rejected.

Thank you, Goro.

Are schools permitted to provide feedback related to LORs? I can't imagine that there is a red flag there, but I would absolutely like to know if a bad LOR is to blame for my lackluster cycle.

Should I contact the Dean(s) directly or is it advisable to go through the normal channels? I don't want to make my situation worse by stepping on any toes.

Filing an appeal is only appropriate if an egregious violation occurred, correct? I am still at a loss as to why I was not accepted at my state school, especially considering the positive feedback I got from both of my interviewers ("great fit," "look forward to seeing you next year," etc.).

Andy, maybe I'm misunderstanding your reluctance to try going a bit farther afield, but is it because you want to be close to your son? If you actually see him just twice a month, could that be something that could possibly change if your circumstances put you elsewhere? For instance, could you arrange some longer but fewer times, like during the summer or during a school break?

You also mentioned you had a few Fs in your first two years. Did you explain them at all in your application? Even if that's over ten years ago, grades like that are eye-opening.

Sorry if I was unclear.

My son was born while my wife was in medical school. She ended up matching in NV and we decided that he should go with her because we have family there. I am still at my job here in NM and won't be able to leave for another several months, as there are a number of loose ends to tie up. I have been traveling to NV a couple of times a month for the past year. I could conceivably continue these visitations throughout medical school if I'm in the West. It would be much more difficult (and expensive) if I ended up somewhere back East. And seeing him only during the summers and holidays just doesn't seem like the right thing to do, for him or for me.

Regarding the grades: most schools provided the opportunity to explain any discrepancies in their secondary applications. I am skeptical that grades from over a decade ago would dramatically affect my odds of acceptance, especially since I was able to pull my GPA up to a 3.6.

Thanks again to both of you for your comments.
 
I think it's the interview.

Thank you, Gyngyn.

There is no doubt that I botched the MMI at UA. I am terribly disappointed in myself, but there is nothing I can do about it now.

However, my other two interviews went well. At one of them, my interviewers told me explicitly that they would vouch for me at the committee meeting. I guess I will find out for sure when this cycle is over, but I just can't imagine that a poor interview performance was a factor in the decisions at UNM or USC.
 
Thank you, Gyngyn.

There is no doubt that I botched the MMI at UA. I am terribly disappointed in myself, but there is nothing I can do about it now.

However, my other two interviews went well. At one of them, my interviewers told me explicitly that they would vouch for me at the committee meeting. I guess I will find out for sure when this cycle is over, but I just can't imagine that a poor interview performance was a factor in the decisions at UNM or USC.
Do you have any unusual mannerisms? Quirky dress...
 
Do you have any unusual mannerisms? Quirky dress...

Not as far as I know! Run of the mill three-piece suit. No odd mannerisms that have were called to my attention during mock interviews. And if those were issues, one would think that the response from my interviewers would have been decidedly less optimistic than it was. Nerves may have gotten the best of me in the MMI situation, but that wasn't the case at all for the other two interviews.

I hope I am not coming across as defensive. I am just kind of baffled by this whole situation and I'm fairly sure that the interview is not responsible for my rejections/WL.
 
If I do apply again, it will have to be in WA, OR, CA, AZ, NV, and NM.

Would recommend OHSU.
Would advise against U. Washington - very biased against non-OOR applicants unless you have significant service to underserved areas.
Would advise against CA. Your competitiveness level is probably below the UCs and Stanford.
NV is questionable. They only admit in-state and from certain categories of very specific states outside of NV.

Oddly enough, I think your best shot is at the same schools that interviewed you - NM and AZ. Would suggest getting feedback from the Admissions Office and ask whether you would be a competitive reapplicant. Oddly enough, I've met students who said they were rejected from their school during the first cycle.
 
Nope. That's one of the sacrosanct aspects of confidentiality for LORs.

Are schools permitted to provide feedback related to LORs? I can't imagine that there is a red flag there, but I would absolutely like to know if a bad LOR is to blame for my lackluster cycle.

I suggest contacting the Dean of Admissions. Ask for feedback, not advice or counseling. Do this only for the schools that have officially rejected you.

Should I contact the Dean(s) directly or is it advisable to go through the normal channels? I don't want to make my situation worse by stepping on any toes.

Waste of time unless the interviewer(s) made a blatant display of animus (like saying "oh, we have enough of YOUR kind here now")
.
Filing an appeal is only appropriate if an egregious violation occurred, correct? I am still at a loss as to why I was not accepted at my state school, especially considering the positive feedback I got from both of my interviewers ("great fit," "look forward to seeing you next year," etc.).

I concur with my learned colleague that the interview was the problem.

Regarding the grades: most schools provided the opportunity to explain any discrepancies in their secondary applications. I am skeptical that grades from over a decade ago would dramatically affect my odds of acceptance, especially since I was able to pull my GPA up to a 3.6.
 
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UNM offers exit interviews for all students who aren't accepted and will provide specific feedback about your application. But you are required to attend a group counseling session for rejected applicants first before receiving individual feedback on your application.

Information about the exit interview should have been included with your rejection letter.
 
Not as far as I know! Run of the mill three-piece suit. No odd mannerisms that have were called to my attention during mock interviews. And if those were issues, one would think that the response from my interviewers would have been decidedly less optimistic than it was.
This is a normal humanistic response to someone in a high stakes situation. Even though interviewers are commonly instructed not to give a "prognosis," many are compelled to comfort and encourage the applicant. Clinicians, in particular, find it hard to refrain from this.
 
Thank you all very much for the advice. I sincerely appreciate you taking time out of your weekend to help me out.

Would recommend OHSU.
Would advise against U. Washington - very biased against non-OOR applicants unless you have significant service to underserved areas.
Would advise against CA. Your competitiveness level is probably below the UCs and Stanford.
NV is questionable. They only admit in-state and from certain categories of very specific states outside of NV.

Oddly enough, I think your best shot is at the same schools that interviewed you - NM and AZ. Would suggest getting feedback from the Admissions Office and ask whether you would be a competitive reapplicant. Oddly enough, I've met students who said they were rejected from their school during the first cycle.

Yes - I really should have applied to OHSU. Huge oversight on my part. I was told by an adviser that they were not OOS-friendly, but I really should have double-checked.

I knew CA was a long shot, but I was pleasantly surprised to get an interview at USC. I figured one of the lower-tier UC's might throw me a bone as well. It seems that all of the UC's really like to see research, though, which was clearly a major problem.

Feedback from NM and AZ is forthcoming.

Nope. That's one of the sacrosanct aspects of confidentiality for LORs.

Are schools permitted to provide feedback related to LORs? I can't imagine that there is a red flag there, but I would absolutely like to know if a bad LOR is to blame for my lackluster cycle.

I suggest contacting the Dean of Admissions. Ask for feedback, not advice or counseling. Do this only for the schools that have officially rejected you.

Should I contact the Dean(s) directly or is it advisable to go through the normal channels? I don't want to make my situation worse by stepping on any toes.

Waste of time unless the interviewer(s) made a blatant display of animus (like saying "oh, we have enough of YOUR kind here now")
.
Filing an appeal is only appropriate if an egregious violation occurred, correct? I am still at a loss as to why I was not accepted at my state school, especially considering the positive feedback I got from both of my interviewers ("great fit," "look forward to seeing you next year," etc.).

I concur with my learned colleague that the interview was the problem.

Regarding the grades: most schools provided the opportunity to explain any discrepancies in their secondary applications. I am skeptical that grades from over a decade ago would dramatically affect my odds of acceptance, especially since I was able to pull my GPA up to a 3.6.

Thank you. I will heed your advice and contact the Deans directly.

UNM offers exit interviews for all students who aren't accepted and will provide specific feedback about your application. But you are required to attend a group counseling session for rejected applicants first before receiving individual feedback on your application.

Information about the exit interview should have been included with your rejection letter.

The workshop is absolutely on my to-do list!

This is a normal humanistic response to someone in a high stakes situation. Even though interviewers are commonly instructed not to give a "prognosis," many are compelled to comfort and encourage the applicant. Clinicians, in particular, find it hard to refrain from this.

I have to admit that I have a hard time accepting that the interview was the problem. To me, there is a clear difference between an interviewer saying "it was great chatting with you" versus "I will wholeheartedly support your candidacy at the meeting." If they had no intention of recommending me, then I would have no qualms with polite, noncommittal encouragement. However, it would seem rather cruel to say one thing and then do the opposite.

Beyond that, I'm almost 30 years old and have interviewed for a number of jobs throughout my life. I prepared for the interview through several mock interviews at my school's advising center. If I blew it, then there is virtually nothing I could do differently next time around. I am who I am and I did everything I could to be personable, professional, and enthusiastic.

Per Goro's suggestion, though, I will contact the Deans as soon as I get my final verdict from USC.
 
I knew CA was a long shot, but I was pleasantly surprised to get an interview at USC. I figured one of the lower-tier UC's might throw me a bone as well. It seems that all of the UC's really like to see research, though, which was clearly a major problem.

Feedback from NM and AZ is forthcoming.

Thank you. I will heed your advice and contact the Deans directly.

I have to admit that I have a hard time accepting that the interview was the problem.

If you think you interviewed decently, it becomes more important to get the Dean's feedback. Being a reapplicant in the Western states is a very common phenomenon given how limited the geographic options are. I know many people who've gotten into UW or OHSU on the second or third try.

As for Cali, it's not my intent to dismiss USC. For an IS candidate, I'd put the difficulty of Keck even with the UCD, UCI, and UCR. But as an OOS, the difficulty of UC increases a lot while Keck stays the same. Congrats on your Keck interview. Hope it works out for you.
 
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If you think you interviewed decently, it becomes more important to get the Dean's feedback. Being a reapplicant in the Western states is a very common phenomenon given how limited the geographic options are. I know many people who've gotten into UW or OHSU on the second or third try.

As for Cali, it's not my intent to dismiss USC. For an IS candidate, I'd put the difficulty of Keck even with the UCD, UCI, and UCR. But as an OOS, the difficulty of UC increases a lot while Keck stays the same. Congrats on your Keck interview. Hope it works out for you.

Thanks very much, solitarius.

I presume that it would be foolish to reapply as a CA resident? I'm about 90% sure that I can claim legal residence in CA, but I figured that I would be totally outclassed in such a competitive state.

Thanks again.
 
I presume that it would be foolish to reapply as a CA resident? I'm about 90% sure that I can claim legal residence in CA, but I figured that I would be totally outclassed in such a competitive state.

I think UCSD, UCSF, and UCLA won't care. They interview a decent number of OOS people, but they are top of the class schools and probably only interview top of the class candidates good enough to interview at the other Top 20 schools.

Don't know enough about UCD, UCI, or UCR. Not sure if they'll view you as a carpetbagger. I was rejected pre-interview at my state school, and I wouldn't be surprised if they viewed me the same way. Life goes on.
 
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Thanks very much, solitarius.

I presume that it would be foolish to reapply as a CA resident? I'm about 90% sure that I can claim legal residence in CA, but I figured that I would be totally outclassed in such a competitive state.

Thanks again.
2/3's of our fine CA applicants must leave the state to attend medical school...
 
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Three quick questions:

1) I have continued volunteering and shadowing over the past year, but haven't been involved in research. If I were to reapply, would a few hundred more hours of clinical experience be considered a significant improvement over last cycle?

2) Would I be considered a re-applicant if I applied via TMDSAS?

3) Is it plausible that yield protection played a role in the rejection from my state school?

Thanks!
 
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I submitted my AMCAS early this cycle and applied to about fourteen schools: everywhere in NM (my home state), AZ, CA, and NV. I only received three IIs:

UNM - Rejected
University of Arizona - Rejected
USC - WL

The purpose of this thread is to determine where I went wrong and if I should reapply or look into alternate career paths. I am an older non-trad with a child and can't move much further east, so I'm fairly limited in where I can apply. If I do apply again, it will have to be in WA, OR, CA, AZ, NV, and NM.

Below is a very brief summary of the AMCAS application I submitted last June. Feedback is appreciated.

Academic
Major: Exercise Physiology
GPA: 3.6 (strong upward trend; 4.0 for past two years with straight A's in pre-req courses)
MCAT: 38 (13/13/12)

Volunteering
300 hours as patient companion for MS charity organization
300 hours at community clinic in underserved area of NM

Shadowing
30 hours - primary care and neurology

Research
50 hours in exercise physiology lab (funding pulled and lost position midway through project)
Poster presentation at small conference

Work Experience
1000s of hours as physical therapy aide
1000s of hours as tech support for software company
(Self-supported throughout college)

Miscellaneous
Hobbies - writing (published in several major magazines)
Honors - Dean's List and award for community service
LORs - very strong; knew my professors very well
PS - went through 8-10 drafts; one interviewer said that it was one of the best he had seen

Since submitting my application, I have volunteered at a hospice (~400 hours) and shadowed several more physicians (48 hours). However, I have failed to secure a position in a laboratory and still have very limited research experience. I am still working full-time in tech support.

Considering that I have not improved my application much since last year, should I reapply? Consider a different career? Take another year off? I'm just a few months shy of my 30th birthday and I really need to figure out what I am going to do with my life. Failing to land an acceptance this cycle has been deeply disappointing. I knew that my application was fairly mediocre, but I thought that I had an excellent shot at my state school considering my LizzyM is well above their average.

Thank you for any advice.

You have to do the application post-mortem with your state school. Sometimes things get botched -- when one of my friends did his at his state school, they told him that he got axed because "you didn't have any volunteer work" . . . but he had hundreds of hours with their own affiliated hospital and a LOR from it, and someone had just mis-marked/scored the rubric they used in their admissions process.

Waitlist movement will pick up and it continues throughout the summer. Don't despair. USC might still be in the running. If you have to reapply, consider U Utah -- you'll have to look at what their current OOS policy is, b/c officially before it was "only if strong ties to the state" and might be listed as such on spreadsheets floating around SDN, but after their own state cut their funding, from what I heard on the residency interview trail, they opened up a lot of seats to OOS. There are at least 8 DO schools in the region you're considering, and I would think it prudent to consider those for the sake of your son if you really think being in these states is important.

Also, I don't know what type of residency your wife is doing. If it's a 3 year one like EM or IM, is it possible you're making an unnecessary restriction on yourself with this location issue? Once you take truly local med schools out of the picture, is there really that much of a benefit from being in NM versus the Midwest? The hassle of buying tickets, getting to the airport, waiting at the airport exceeds that of the actual flight -- you're really just saving yourself a few hours max, right? (Granted the time change is a pain to deal with, but it seems like a small price to pay compared to becoming a doctor AND getting to see your kid).
 
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You have to do the application post-mortem with your state school. Sometimes things get botched -- when one of my friends did his at his state school, they told him that he got axed because "you didn't have any volunteer work" . . . but he had hundreds of hours with their own affiliated hospital and a LOR from it, and someone had just mis-marked/scored the rubric they used in their admissions process.

Waitlist movement will pick up and it continues throughout the summer. Don't despair. USC might still be in the running. If you have to reapply, consider U Utah -- you'll have to look at what their current OOS policy is, b/c officially before it was "only if strong ties to the state" and might be listed as such on spreadsheets floating around SDN, but after their own state cut their funding, from what I heard on the residency interview trail, they opened up a lot of seats to OOS. There are at least 8 DO schools in the region you're considering, and I would think it prudent to consider those for the sake of your son if you really think being in these states is important.

Also, I don't know what type of residency your wife is doing. If it's a 3 year one like EM or IM, is it possible you're making an unnecessary restriction on yourself with this location issue? Once you take truly local med schools out of the picture, is there really that much of a benefit from being in NM versus the Midwest? The hassle of buying tickets, getting to the airport, waiting at the airport exceeds that of the actual flight -- you're really just saving yourself a few hours max, right? (Granted the time change is a pain to deal with, but it seems like a small price to pay compared to becoming a doctor AND getting to see your kid).

Thank you very much, Plecopotamus.

I am looking forward to my exit interview at UNM and will be very pleasantly surprised if it turns out that my rejection was the result of a clerical error. Was your friend ultimately admitted after the mistake was corrected?

An acceptance from USC would be a dream come true, but I'm not holding my breath. The students I interviewed with were absolutely brilliant and far more deserving than I. In truth, I was grateful just to be waitlisted!

My wife is in a three-year program. However, she plans on pursuing a combined subspecialty path. Provided that she is accepted, she won't complete training until 2018. We are currently discussing our options. She may be able to apply to a Fellowship wherever I end up, in which case I could apply much more broadly next cycle. Still a lot to figure out at the moment.

Thanks again for your help!
 
Definitely look at CO and Utah. You seem like a great candidate for a DO program, especially if you are interested in primary care. You have a great app overall though. I definitely commend your commitment/determination to continue pursuing medicine!

Best of luck!
 
Interview is so important as others have said.

Also, though, my $0.02 is that the med school process is a crap shoot. I'm not an admissions rep/associate, and I doubt anyone on adcom will admit this, but I definitely have my reasons for believing there's quota filling involved i.e. we need 1 more non-trad, female, asian student etc....
 
Interview is so important as others have said.

Also, though, my $0.02 is that the med school process is a crap shoot. I'm not an admissions rep/associate, and I doubt anyone on adcom will admit this, but I definitely have my reasons for believing there's quota filling involved i.e. we need 1 more non-trad, female, asian student etc....
Not a chance. Wouldn't be workable even if someone wanted to do it.
 
100% concur with my learned colleague gyngyn. Never, ever have we had this type of discussion in our Adcom meetings. You may have your reasons for your unfounded speculation, but they are not based upon reality.

I'm not an admissions rep/associate, and I doubt anyone on adcom will admit this, but I definitely have my reasons for believing there's quota filling involved i.e. we need 1 more non-trad, female, asian student etc....[/QUOTE]
 
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Interview is so important as others have said.

Also, though, my $0.02 is that the med school process is a crap shoot. I'm not an admissions rep/associate, and I doubt anyone on adcom will admit this, but I definitely have my reasons for believing there's quota filling involved i.e. we need 1 more non-trad, female, asian student etc....

Quotas are illegal by a Supreme Court ruling not too long ago, but that's besides the point
 
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bad letters of rec, bad interviews, and/or not enough hours in hospital
 
If it's not your interviewing skills, your LoRs, your stats, or other activities you've done this year, etc …. is it possible that your three-piece suit isn't so run of the mill? Sorry, but I haven't seen many 3-piece suits lately. Check out this link to see what to wear. http://www.kenan-flagler.unc.edu/ad...~/media/DAD4E81591B94E2D831CB878D4A8B997.ashx

This as well. I'm a fan of wearing something traditional. Students forget they're interviewing with older, traditional physicians/admissions members. Dress for them, not you.
 
100% concur with my learned colleague gyngyn. Never, ever have we had this type of discussion in our Adcom meetings. You may have your reasons for your unfounded speculation, but they are not based upon reality.

I'm not an admissions rep/associate, and I doubt anyone on adcom will admit this, but I definitely have my reasons for believing there's quota filling involved i.e. we need 1 more non-trad, female, asian student etc....
[/QUOTE]


Thanks for clarifying @Goro @gyngyn
 
Thanks for all your responses. I really appreciate the help.

Last week, I received feedback from one of the schools that rejected me. The long and short of it is that I didn't have enough clinical experience.

Is 600 hours no longer considered competitive? Do adcom members not consider volunteer service from several years ago?

I felt like clinical experience was one of my strengths - I even received an award for my volunteer work - but apparently a lack of clinical experience was the primary reason I was rejected. It leaves me a bit confused.

Am I missing something here? I was told that I would have a much better chance of acceptance next cycle since I have accrued several hundred more hours of clinical experience (hospice) as well as a few dozen more shadowing hours. However, when it comes right down to it, I find it hard to believe that there is a major difference between six hundred and one thousand hours.

Any further advice would be appreciated!
 
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Andy, I you're missing something, then so am I! I'm sitting here slack-jawed with amazement that your clinical hours don't count! Even doing clerical work means you're still dealing with patients. I can only speculate that for that school, clinics don't count and hospitals are the only place to see patients.

600 hers is well above and beyond the call of duty.

Thanks for all your responses. I really appreciate the help.

Last week, I received feedback from one of the schools that rejected me. The long and short of it is that I didn't have enough clinical experience.

Is 600 hours no longer considered competitive? Do adcom members not consider volunteer service from several years ago?

I felt like clinical experience was one of my strengths - I even received an award for my volunteer work - but apparently a lack of clinical experience was the primary reason I was rejected. It leaves me a bit confused.

Am I missing something here? I was told that I would have a much better chance of acceptance next cycle since I have accrued several hundred more hours of clinical experience (hospice) as well as a few dozen more shadowing hours. However, when it comes right down to it, I find it hard to believe that there is a major difference between six hundred and one thousand hours.

Any further advice would be appreciated!
 
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Andy, I you're missing something, then so am I! I'm sitting here slack-jawed with amazement that your clinical hours don't count! Even doing clerical work means you're still dealing with patients. I can only speculate that for that school, clinics don't count and hospitals are the only place to see patients.

600 hers is well above and beyond the call of duty.

Thanks, Goro.

Not sure where to go now. Do I reapply with roughly the same application (plus a few hundred hours of clinical experience, some tutoring, and some more shadowing)? My application is stronger now, but I still have deficits in certain areas (specifically research and a below average GPA). I am considering re-applying as a CA resident with the following application:

Academic
Major: Exercise Physiology
GPA: 3.6 (strong upward trend; 4.0 for past two years with straight A's in pre-req courses); slightly higher than last year after taking summer courses
MCAT: 38 (13/13/12)

Volunteering
300 hours as patient companion for MS charity organization
300 hours at community clinic in underserved area of NM
500 hours at hospice

Shadowing
~70 hours - primary care, neurology, anesthesiology, psychiatry

Research
50 hours in exercise physiology lab (funding pulled and lost position midway through project)
Poster presentation at small conference

Work Experience
1000s of hours as physical therapy aide
1000s of hours as tech support for software company
~400 hours MCAT tutor
(Self-supported throughout college)

Miscellaneous
Hobbies - writing (published in several major magazines)
Honors - Dean's List and award for community service
LORs - very strong; knew my professors very well; one new letter from hospice volunteer coordinator
PS - went through 8-10 drafts; one interviewer said that it was one of the best he had seen; would make some small changes here

Goro (and others) - including the more recent activities (noted in bold above), would I stand a chance in a western state? I really wish I had been able to secure a research position this past year, but I just couldn't find anything as a non-student. That said, I do have more clinical experience and shadowing as opposed to last cycle and I could conceivably re-apply as a CA resident.

Thanks again!
 
If you reapply, you should have no problem getting into one of the DO schools in the region. I suspect you will get into one or more MDs as well.

As far as reapplying to schools, it can be random. Two of the 3 schools that wait listed me the first time around didn't interview me this year (UCSD didn't even send me a secondary). The third interviewed and accepted me right away. I went from having almost no clinical experience to about 200 hours and two Deans I spoke to seemed to think that was pretty substantial. With that said, I think your application is much stronger with another 500 hours of hospice work. Then again, you seemed really competitive the first time so I'm not sure why you didn't get in.
 
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Best chances are with the six DO schools in CA (2), AZ (2), NV and CO (1 each). I's also take a crack again at U AZ, and maybe Loma Linda, USC or UCLA. But is the GPA you show above calculated with grade replacement (AACOMAS), or avging (AAMCAS)?

Goro (and others) - including the more recent activities (noted in bold above), would I stand a chance in a western state? I really wish I had been able to secure a research position this past year, but I just couldn't find anything as a non-student. That said, I do have more clinical experience and shadowing as opposed to last cycle and I could conceivably re-apply as a CA resident.

Thanks again![/QUOTE]
 
If it's not your interviewing skills, your LoRs, your stats, or other activities you've done this year, etc …. is it possible that your three-piece suit isn't so run of the mill? Sorry, but I haven't seen many 3-piece suits lately. Check out this link to see what to wear. http://www.kenan-flagler.unc.edu/ad...~/media/DAD4E81591B94E2D831CB878D4A8B997.ashx

You mean this wasn't appropriate?!?

orange_tuxedo.jpg

Just kidding.

Wore a run-of-the-mill three-piece suit from Jos A Bank. Pretty sure my attire wasn't an issue, though if I knew I wasn't going to be accepted I might have worn a neon green jumpsuit just for kicks :p.
 
Best chances are with the six DO schools in CA (2), AZ (2), NV and CO (1 each). I's also take a crack again at U AZ, and maybe Loma Linda, USC or UCLA. But is the GPA you show above calculated with grade replacement (AACOMAS), or avging (AAMCAS)?

Thanks, Goro. My AMCAS GPA was a touch over 3.60. My AACOMAS GPA was around 3.95 or so.

DO schools probably aren't the best choice for me since there is a high probability that I will want to pursue a competitive specialty.

I think at this point I'm going to have to decide between applying broadly and spending a year or two away from my wife and son or giving the western states one more shot with a modestly improved application. I have considered retaking the MCAT - my average on the practice tests was significantly above 38 - but that would be a tremendous risk and I don't know if my numbers were a big issue anyway.

Appreciate your feedback. Will post again when I receive feedback from the other school I interviewed at.
 
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I'm getting tired of saying this, Andy: worry about getting into medical school before worrying about specializing. And you CAN do competitive residencies as a DO grad... my students do.... radiology, pathology, anesthesiology, neurology etc. The Dean of TUCOM-NV is a rheumatologist, and I've met DO nephrologists and cardiologists a plenty.


Thanks, Goro. My AMCAS GPA was a touch over 3.60. My AACOMAS GPA was around 3.95 or so.

DO schools probably aren't the best choice for me since there is a high probability that I will want to pursue a competitive specialty.

I think at this point I'm going to have to decide between applying broadly and spending a year or two away from my wife and son or giving the western states one more shot with a modestly improved application. I have considered retaking the MCAT - my average on the practice tests was significantly above 38 - but that would be a tremendous risk and I don't know if my numbers were a big issue anyway.

Appreciate your feedback. Will post again when I receive feedback from the other school I interviewed at.
 
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I'm getting tired of saying this, Andy: worry about getting into medical school before worrying about specializing. And you CAN do competitive residencies as a DO grad... my students do.... radiology, pathology, anesthesiology, neurology etc. The Dean of TUCOM-NV is a rheumatologist, and I've met DO nephrologists and cardiologists a plenty.

I don't mean to be nit picky and I could be wrong, but radiology seems like the only competitive specialty you listed. I'm only basing this off of theNRMP match stats so I might be naive to other factors. I realize that rheumatology, nephrology, and cardiology are competitive fellowships, but isn't the degree a mute point for fellowships after you have proven your abilities as an IM resident? Please advise, Goro.
 
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I don't mean to be nit picky and I could be wrong, but radiology seems like the only competitive specialty you listed. I'm only basing this off of theNRMP match stats so I might be naive to other factors. I realize that rheumatology, nephrology, and cardiology are competitive fellowships, but isn't the degree a mute point for fellowships after you have proven your abilities as an IM resident? Please advise, Goro.
In fact, there were dozens of radiology positions left over in the SOAP.
Medicine fellowships are largely a function of your residency performance, not where you went to medical school.
 
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In fact, there were dozens of radiology positions left over in the SOAP.
Medicine fellowships are largely a function of your residency performance, not where you went to medical school.

Any idea why there were 8 unfilled programs for pgy-1 and 34 for pgy-2 in radiology? Is there something that turns people away from radiology after intern year or are these just undesirable programs?

Edit: Never mind, there are more PGY-2 programs. The percentage of unfilled programs is identical at ~22%.
 
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OP, how old was your clinical experience? If you didn't have any recent shadowing/volunteering, that would likely have been an issue at many schools. The other thing you should do, as the others have already suggested, is broaden your apps. Either add DO schools, or branch out further afield into the Midwest. If you select cities with major airports, it shouldn't be prohibitively difficult for you to get home. Once you're outside of driving distance anyway, what difference does an extra hour or two sitting on the plane really make?

Retaking your MCAT would be asinine. Just don't even go there.

And to paraphrase what Goro said, why don't you jump off that specialty selecting bridge when you get there? Considering that you are severely geographically limiting yourself and that you have already gone through one app round without gaining an acceptance to any med school, you're not exactly in a strong position to be dictating which med schools you'll deign to attend. Focus on getting yourself accepted somewhere, bust your butt to do well in med school and on Step 1, and *then* you can worry about residency apps.
 
You're strong enough for an MD acceptance, you just didn't apply broad enough nor to enough mid-low tier schools. I'd have someone you trust read over your PS for an honest critique, and see if you can do a mock interview with someone experienced that can give you a real assessment of your interviewing skills. Build that app in the meantime, clock some work and volunteer time.
 
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Not a chance. Wouldn't be workable even if someone wanted to do it.

Off topic I know, but don't schools do this in a less structured way? At one of my interviews we heard directly from the head of admissions that towards the end of the cycle, as they start to have an idea what their class looks like, they start choosing people to accept largely based on diversity. If they have too many people from one coast they may start accepting more people from the other coast was the example that was provided.
 
Thanks for the responses.

OP, how old was your clinical experience? If you didn't have any recent shadowing/volunteering, that would likely have been an issue at many schools. The other thing you should do, as the others have already suggested, is broaden your apps. Either add DO schools, or branch out further afield into the Midwest. If you select cities with major airports, it shouldn't be prohibitively difficult for you to get home. Once you're outside of driving distance anyway, what difference does an extra hour or two sitting on the plane really make?

Retaking your MCAT would be asinine. Just don't even go there.

And to paraphrase what Goro said, why don't you jump off that specialty selecting bridge when you get there? Considering that you are severely geographically limiting yourself and that you have already gone through one app round without gaining an acceptance to any med school, you're not exactly in a strong position to be dictating which med schools you'll deign to attend. Focus on getting yourself accepted somewhere, bust your butt to do well in med school and on Step 1, and *then* you can worry about residency apps.

I was still involved in my most recent clinical experience when I submitted my application (~300 hours at that point). My work with the MS charity was back in 2008. I was concerned that clinical volunteering from five years ago would not be considered relevant. That may well have been the case at at least one school.

You're strong enough for an MD acceptance, you just didn't apply broad enough nor too enough schools. I'd have someone you trust read over your PS for an honest critique, and see if you can do a mock interview with someone experienced that can give you a real assessment of your interviewing skills. Build that app in the meantime, clock some work and volunteer time.

Thanks. I actually got some great feedback on my PS from one fine SDN member. I'll probably have a few more people take a look after I make some changes.
 
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Off topic I know, but don't schools do this in a less structured way? At one of my interviews we heard directly from the head of admissions that towards the end of the cycle, as they start to have an idea what their class looks like, they start choosing people to accept largely based on diversity. If they have too many people from one coast they may start accepting more people from the other coast was the example that was provided.
Rebalancing a class is quite different. I had a year in which, despite accepting an equivalent number of men and women, we had a big difference by the time we (finally!) got to the waitlist. Everything else being equal, we rebalanced in favor of the outnumbered sex. This is quite different from a quota. If we had gotten to a place on the list where the candidates were unacceptable we would have just taken the other sex.
 
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Rebalancing a class is quite different. I had a year in which, despite accepting an equivalent number of men and women, we had a big difference by the time we (finally!) got to the waitlist. Everything else being equal, we rebalanced in favor of the outnumbered sex. This is quite different from a quota. If we had gotten to a place on the list where the candidates were unacceptable we would have just taken the other sex.
That's what our admissions dean did also.
 
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