5th Year Dismissal.. Advice?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

sA x sKy

Full Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
94
Reaction score
0
Hi everyone, haven't posted here in a long time... I hope everyone is doing well.

I was, until recently, enrolled in a 6 year PharmD program. I was in my 5th year.

I was placed on probation on May 2015 to bring up my math/science GPA up to a 2.3 by Fall 2015. I had to take three summer classes (which counts as a semester as I found out much later). I did okay, I got a B- in two classes I previously failed and a D+ in a Cardio 1 DND which I had withdrawed from during the semester. My GPA went up.

This semester I did okay again. I received an A in a 4 credit class, and a mix of C+/C-. My lowest grade was in kinetics where I received a D+. My GPA went up further.

Throughout this whole ordeal I was in contact with my assistant dean who is the one who sends out the probation letter and what not. He's on my side on all of this and knows how much I tried. I ended up with up with a 2.22 GPA.. .08 away from a 2.3.

The actual Dean is the one who decides who stays and who doesn't.. I respectfully requested my assistant dean if he could talk to the school dean before winter break begins to give me a preliminary decision. The Dean dismissed me.. Despite academic improvement, I failed to meet the contract terms by not getting a 2.3 and I have exceeded the number of times one can be on probation.. Which would be the Summer and the Fall.

I tried my best, the pressure of being kicked out towards the end of my pharmacy career has been the most taxing challenge of my life.

Never has my life been at such a low point than reading that dismissal email after working my ass off these past couple of months. My assistant dean told me if I really want pharmacy, that I should appeal. I will have his full support during the appeal process.

I wrote an appeal letter immediately explaining I tried my best, the assistant dean can attest to that, one professor who knew of my situation can attest to that.. I explained how I had valid medical concerns that affected me during 4th year before I was even placed on probation (I was diagnosed with gout at the age of 20). I also mentioned a traumatic family issue that had happened during that very year ( my sister was a block away from where the Charlie Hebdo attacks occurred in Paris).

I'm at a loss of what to do right now as it feels my life is over having invested 5 years into this program. I was a semester away from my APPEs...

I have 6 things going for me right now.. I didn't fail any classes, my GPA went up, the assistant dean is on my side, I have valid and documented medical concerns, I have valid traumatic family concerns.. And of course I'm literally at the end of the program. If I made it this far, does it not mean I am competent?

The three things not going for me right now are that I failed to meet the contract terms, I have exceeded the number of times one can be on probation (I don't know why Summer is counted...) and I know my school is under pressure to improve NAPLEX exam rates as its at an 89% compared to when it used to be 95%.

I find out this coming Monday what happens of me. It feels very disheartening to be dismissed right at the end even with academic improvement. I'm at a loss.. Any insight would be appreciated.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited:
Hi everyone, haven't posted here in a long time... I hope everyone is doing well.

I was, until recently, enrolled in a 6 year PharmD program. I was in my 5th year.

I was placed on probation on May 2015 to bring up my math/science GPA up to a 2.3 by Fall 2015. I had to take three summer classes (which counts as a semester as I found out much later). I did okay, I got a B- in two classes I previously failed and a D+ in a Cardio 1 DND which I had withdrawed from during the semester. My GPA went up.

This semester I did okay again. I received an A in a 4 credit class, and a mix of C+/C-. My lowest grade was in kinetics where I received a D+. My GPA went up further.

Throughout this whole ordeal I was in contact with my assistant dean who is the one who sends out the probation letter and what not. He's on my side on all of this and knows how much I tried. I ended up with up with a 2.22 GPA.. .08 away from a 2.3.

The actual Dean is the one who decides who stays and who doesn't.. I respectfully requested my assistant dean if he could talk to the school dean before winter break begins to give me a preliminary decision. The Dean dismissed me.. Despite academic improvement, I failed to meet the contract terms by not getting a 2.3 and I have exceeded the number of times one can be on probation.. Which would be the Summer and the Fall.

I tried my best, the pressure of being kicked out towards the end of my pharmacy career has been the most taxing challenge of my life.

Never has my life been at such a low point than reading that dismissal email after working my ass off these past couple of months. My assistant dean told me if I really want pharmacy, that I should appeal. I will have his full support during the appeal process.

I wrote an appeal letter immediately explaining I tried my best, the assistant dean can attest to that, one professor who knew of my situation can attest to that.. I explained how I had valid medical concerns that affected me during 4th year before I was even placed on probation (I was diagnosed with gout at the age of 20). I also mentioned a traumatic family issue that had happened during that very year ( my sister was a block away from where the Charlie Hebdo attacks occurred in Paris).

I'm at a loss of what to do right now as it feels my life is over having invested 5 years into this program. I was a semester away from my APPEs...

I have 6 things going for me right now.. I didn't fail any classes, my GPA went up, the assistant dean is on my side, I have valid and documented medical concerns, I have valid traumatic family concerns.. And of course I'm literally at the end of the program. If I made it this far, does it not mean I am competent?

The three things not going for me right now are that I failed to meet the contract terms, I have exceeded the number of times one can be on probation (I don't know why Summer is counted...) and I know my school is under pressure to improve NAPLEX exam rates as its at an 89% compared to when it used to be 95%.

I find out this coming Monday what happens of me. It feels very disheartening to be dismissed right at the end even with academic improvement. I'm at a loss.. Any insight would be appreciated.

This may sound harsh, but I understand why you were dismissed and agree with your school's decision. You obtained extremely mediocre grades, even in courses that you had experience in (like getting a D+ in cardio), of which during the summer you had that entire time to devote to just 3 classes. Luckily, you still had another chance fall semester, yet you failed to do well even on your second semester of probation. You should have been busting your balls to do everything and anything not to fail. I'm not convinced you took this situation seriously when you write that you earned multiple D's on probation.

It's quite possible that you had legitimate trauma or medical concerns during this time. The problem is it sounds like these problems are so pervasive in your life that they will never go away. Your writing makes your life sound like a mess. How are you going to do better in the future? What stops you from ruining someone else's life or doing a horrible job on the job. Are you going to make more excuses at that time? What if you fail next semester?

Would you want a half-assed graduate as your pharmacist?

What school do you go to?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Just realized from reading your signature that you come from St. John's (in NY?)... I have never heard it being a difficult school to pass.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I'm sorry. Gout? A legitimate medical issue? lol. I get gout sometimes, it hurts like hell. I take some ibuprofen and few days later gone. I've never missed work because of it or neglected duties. The amount of students failing out of school is staggering. This stuff rarely happened twenty years ago. I don't get it. Well, ya, I do. Lower standards for acceptance. I can't imagine the quality of pharmacy some of the students are going to display after the squeek by and graduate.

OP,
Have you ever worked in a pharmacy prior to Rx school?
Why did you want to become a pharmacist?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Just realized from reading your signature that you come from St. John's (in NY?)... I have never heard it being a difficult school to pass.

I just looked on StartClass.com
They have 144% acceptance rate.
Haha. Apparently, they'll take anyone.
By contrast, Stanford (undergrad) is 5%.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
The terms of dismissal seem pretty clear-cut. Yes, your GPA went up, but not enough to meet the requirements so that's fairly moot.
The medical concern is reaching, to say the least. People who I've seen given leniency were generally diagnosed with much more severe or debilitating diseases, like MS. Same applies for the traumatic family event. Having your sister be a block away from the Hebdo shooting in Paris. That's what, 3-4 degrees of relationships away from the actual shooting?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I absolutely loathe the saying C = Pharm.D. but C does = Pharm.D.
D+ does not equal Pharm.D.
I didn't fail any classes
I got a B- in two classes I previously failed
But you did fail classes.
Nevertheless the way your probation/remediation was written getting a 2.3 or less in a class was basically the same as failing.
Heck my school didn't even have D's. It was C (70-76%) or F.

It's great that the assistant dean is rooting for you but I think your appeal is unlikely.
To accept your appeal they would have to deviate from several of their own rules for progression.
They have 144% acceptance rate
Ouch for 144%.

Schools typically use math/science GPA to exclude dual enrolled pre-pharmacy students from becoming full fledged pharmacy students. This happened to me making my 2+4 a 3+4 and ultimately a 4+go elsewhere.
It seems odd to me that they would use math/science GPA on someone already in the professional portion.
Was this in your student handbook?
Is the 2.3 math/science GPA a school requirement or a remediation plan requirement?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I don't get it. After 4.5 years your GPA was less than a 2.3. This is way before the France shooting and your other medical problem. Why on earth do you feel you deserve more chances? You literally had years of chances. And yet still, when your entire schooling was on the line and you knew that you were on probation you still managed to barely squeak by.

Unfortunately maybe pharmacy is not for you. It may be time to re-think what your next career will be. I hear there are a lot of options in engineering which anyone can do according to our local town crier. Bless his heart.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Man, those are some weak excuses. Life is hard and we all have problems, but if you can't get it together to pass school maybe this isn't the career for you.
 
I've seen people with cancer diagnoses halfway through school pass without failure. People with inflammatory bowel disease diagnoses. Gout? Sister nearby but not involved in a shooting? Give me a break.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Well, I'd like to help you if I could, even though it seems that you messed up your chance to redeem yourself. Once you realized you needed to get over a 2.3 you should have been able to make it happen, unless you work 40 hours a week and/or have kids or something.

What I would do is try to express these "medical conditions," without heavy emphasis. The France shooting situation is sort of a stretch. Maybe if you can make it seem like you needed to provide psychological assistance to a family member out of intense worry for her mental health. Gout, unfortunately is also only going to work in your favor slightly. Having gout should not have caused you to get under a 2.3 unless you have a really damn good reason for that to be the case.

It is good that you improved and have faculty on your side. My primary advice though is to NOT place much emphasis on medical conditions because this may seem like a stretch and possibly a cover-up for something like either not trying hard enough, or not having the ability to get grades good enough to be a pharmacist. If you try to use the medical issues as an excuse they may pass judgements about your character and ability to be hard working and to take responsibility for yourself. You should be completely honest about your situation and you will really need to to convince them that you have a burning desire to finish school to the best of your ability. I would also be confident about your stance in the appeal and try to express emotion in a way that could move them.
 
I've seen people with cancer diagnoses halfway through school pass without failure. People with inflammatory bowel disease diagnoses. Gout? Sister nearby but not involved in a shooting? Give me a break.
Do you go to my school? Lol. The cancer student in my class is doing better than most of my classmates and will most likely graduate with high honors.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Do you go to my school? Lol. The cancer student in my class is doing better than most of my classmates and will most likely graduate with high honors.
Probably not (already graduated), but there's a strong chance somebody in any program will have some kind of catastrophe happen. It seems everybody knows somebody that went through something horrible in school!

And props to your cancer student. They are clearly a force to be reckoned with if they are still pushing through and achieving.
 
Lots of piling on in here, but I'm glad to see some folks tried to give some advice in the thread. I find the people who like to trash current Pharmacy school graduates as automatically inferior particularly curious. What's the point of kicking dirt on this person? Also, some one would have to show me proof that Pharmacy school curriculum is some how easier now. I might be mistaken but I assume most of the same stuff is still being taught + there's a ton of new drugs to learn about and new advances + in general I know they typically seem to pack in a lot more stuff to justify the PharmD title and make thus jam in more things to juggle within the same time period each progressive year.

So yes, it's fair to say that:
- There's a lot more schools and some schools have stagnant or decreasing admission standards
- A lot of schools are giving students multiple chances to screw up and recover from those screw ups.
- A higher percentage of questionable Pharmacists may still make it through just due to the sheer higher number of students combined with the first two points.

However, I don't think it's fair to crap on all new grads just because of that alone and I would need to see some proof that Pharmacy school overall has gotten easier curriculum wise.

As for the OP, it sounds like you've done what you can. All you can do is appeal to them and put whatever things that are in your favor (whether they're weak or not) out there (including things like having faculty vouching for how hard you attempted to recover and also what you plan to do to avoid the situation again). Hopefully, you were able to convey the information without looking like you were whiny or grasping for excuses. You just have to hope the dean will feel good enough after the Christmas/New Year's break to let you slide.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Lots of piling on in here, but I'm glad to see some folks tried to give some advice in the thread. I find the people who like to trash current Pharmacy school graduates as automatically inferior particularly curious. What's the point of kicking dirt on this person? Also, some one would have to show me proof that Pharmacy school curriculum is some how easier now. I might be mistaken but I assume most of the same stuff is still being taught + there's a ton of new drugs to learn about and new advances + in general I know they typically seem to pack in a lot more stuff to justify the PharmD title and make thus jam in more things to juggle within the same time period each progressive year.

So yes, it's fair to say that:
- There's a lot more schools and some schools have stagnant or decreasing admission standards
- A lot of schools are giving students multiple chances to screw up and recover from those screw ups.
- A higher percentage of questionable Pharmacists may still make it through just due to the sheer higher number of students combined with the first two points.

However, I don't think it's fair to crap on all new grads just because of that alone and I would need to see some proof that Pharmacy school overall has gotten easier curriculum wise.

As for the OP, it sounds like you've done what you can. All you can do is appeal to them and put whatever things that are in your favor (whether they're weak or not) out there (including things like having faculty vouching for how hard you attempted to recover and also what you plan to do to avoid the situation again). Hopefully, you were able to convey the information without looking like you were whiny or grasping for excuses. You just have to hope the dean will feel good enough after the Christmas/New Year's break to let you slide.

I don't trash all new grads. But all we know about this one is that they didn't realize summer was a semester.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
My at a glance sleepy evaluation,
Kinetics is pretty damned important for hospital, though not so much for retail. But it is suggestive of your basic arithmetical capability & mathematical conception which are sorely lacking and will come into play with many simple dose calculations for retail. Also financial and logistical operations should you ever evince such promise

Cardio DnD is suggestive of your overall DnD performance. DnD is the bread and butter of pharmacy. Nowadays everything can be looked up but you still have to have a comprehension, the point of a pharmacist, and even for people with innate scientific ability knowing nothing will make things unnecessarily difficult
 
I wouldn't even play the gout angle. I would be more than a little concerned about your competence if you didn't know that your gout issue could be quickly resolved with colchicine...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I wouldn't even play the gout angle. I would be more than a little concerned about your competence if you didn't know that your gout issue could be quickly resolved with colchicine...
Lol'd

Anyways, good luck in future OP. If you can't get a 2.3 GPA, this isn't the career for you imo.
 
Last time I checked (which was about 12 hours ago), gout wasn't a terminal illness. Has that changed?
 
What is dnd?
Drugs & Diseases. It's like P&T but in more of a block fashion so that you learn the physiology, pharmacology, pathophysiology, and therapeutics together organ system by organ system. [Conspiracy alert] In my opinion D&D is easier than P&T because when pathophysiology & therapeutics stands alone there is no 'buffer' on tougher clinical guideline focused application questions with easier physiology and pharmacology rote material. Also the D&D organ system block methodology better lends itself to letting someone continue in a program after failing a block, while P&T is typically lock-step.
I had to take three summer classes (which counts as a semester as I found out much later).
If (re)taking courses in the summer wouldn't count toward your GPA than why did you retake courses during the summer? There is no summer semester conspiracy against you.
I have exceeded the number of times one can be on probation (I don't know why Summer is counted...)
Wait, hold on a second...
If you were already on probation as of May 2015, did they put you on probation again in September because of Fall 2015?
You were already on probation! You just didn't get off probation.
How can you get put on probation if you haven't been returned to good standing?
That is Dean Wormer's Double Secret Probation from Animal House.
How is this described in the student handbook?
If the student progression committee denies you, appeal to the executive committee saying that this was one probationary period, not two, and thus they are contradicting their own policies.
You still completely broke the GPA part of your contract though.
 
I've seen people with cancer diagnoses halfway through school pass without failure. People with inflammatory bowel disease diagnoses. Gout? Sister nearby but not involved in a shooting? Give me a break.


I actually have to agree with you. I was diagnosed with a debilitating disease in which I spent a month in the hospital and went briefly blind my first year of pharmacy school, yet I still managed to graduate on time with a 3.5 GPA. It's all about priorities.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Please keep in mind we do not all handle stress the same way, and that we are all individuals with different learning capacities.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
If you want any insight, i had a roommate on probation but he would still dick around and go out every weekend getting wasted and unsurprisingly he was kicked out, so he didn't try hard enough or didn't care enough. He blamed the dean for screwing him over but when even 90% of students go 0-6 (this was a 0-6 grist-for-the-retail mill) without failing out why would the dean give a ****. Bro had his chance and so did you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Please keep in mind we do not all handle stress the same way, and that we are all individuals with different learning capacities.
While that is true, it is more of an argument that they should be dismissed than that they should not. Completing a degree program requires handling stress and managing your learning capabilities. That is exactly what they failed at.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
At my school we had a new student who flunked out after a semester; rumor is that he spent too much time on online gaming. He was back the following year, but apparently he flunked out again. I will never know the whole story, but either way he was given another chance and he blew it.

Heck, I had to deal with my own issues during school. Was pretty damn stressed out during P1 finals and were wondering why I had to deal with memorizing useless knowledge unrelated to current practice. Didn't get the intern position at the place I previously worked at, that really put me in a downer mood for a few weeks. Favorite uncle passed away before last year's thanksgiving, but no one was available to cover my shift, so I was unable to attend the funeral.

I just had to suck it all up and pull through. No way I was going to let that make me flunk out of school.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I don't get how people fail out multiple times while in graduate or professional school. It's not like in undergraduate where classes are ridiculously easy and often non relevant (tons of requirements and electives you don't care about at all). Like, you're at the end game. This is what you wanted to do right? Losing focus and partying like crazy and doing dumb stuff is something that should stay localized in undergrad, if at all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I suffered from undiagnosed major depression from mid-p2 to the end of my p3 year (at least) and STILL managed a 2.9 GPA. I have little sympathy. Getting out of bed for a friggin shower was like running a marathon sometimes. The anxiety to study was probably the ONLY thing that kept me up and going in any way.

I just don't see how someone can put forth real effort and get multiple D's. I always felt like A's in therapeutics courses are extremely difficult for most students, but C's just require dedicated study time. I'm not saying it's easy for everyone, but I think any person of average intelligence that is fully dedicated to studying, can make C's in Pharmacy School, at least. You don't have to be a genius.

P.S. The gout and Charlie Hebdo excuses made me LOL for real. Take ibuprofen, lay off the ****ty food and quit your bitchin.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
I might be mistaken but I assume most of the same stuff is still being taught + there's a ton of new drugs to learn about and new advances + in general I know they typically seem to pack in a lot more stuff to justify the PharmD title and make thus jam in more things to juggle within the same time period each progressive year.

You are mistaken. Yes, there are new drugs to learn, but much of the old stuff that used to be a big part of pharmacy school no longer is (is pharmacognosy, medicinal chemistry, etc.) Back when pharmacy school was 2 + 3 (actually 2 + 2 1/2 with the last semester being externships), classes were still packed full of material. Now, pharmacy school is longer at 2 + 4 (actually 2 + 3 with the last year being externships), and still packed full, but I don't think the amount students are required to learn each semester is any greater, its just a different focus.

I do agree with you about not kicking people when they are down, but as I see it, pharmacy school has greatly failed this student (and it seems like we are hearing a lot of stories like this.) How does such a mediocre student get into pharmacy school and then get passed along (at great debt) until their 5th of a 6 year program, at which point they are dismissed? This student should have been weeded out/expelled by the end of their 2nd year, long before they reached this point. My criticism isn't towards this student, my criticism is of pharmacy schools that are happy to accept anybody, and to keep taking tuition money, even when it is clear that the student lacks the skills/drive/willpower/support systems/whatever, to actually finish the coursework of pharmacy. But I also acknowledge, that part of this mentality comes from society as a whole, the "everybody can be anything they want to be" mentality, which just isn't true.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
The "I might be mistaken" part was only to caveat the fact that I can't speak for all schools. However, the two examples you gave (pharmacognosy & medicinal chemistry) are covered at a few schools that I know of. However, they are not new schools and I know pharmacognosy is only an optional elective at one of the schools. I think the curriculum packing part is indeed mostly BS stuff like journal clubs, etc., but my point is it still makes for more stuff to juggle and I'm not convinced that they're not getting most (if not all) of the same information that was required before. Again though, since there's so many schools now, I'm sure that some have lowered their curriculum. It's just that I would need to be shown that most simply aren't bothering to teach certain things or are just plain easy before I look down upon ALL new grads. Now admitting students is a different thing and I totally agree that it is certainly easier for more people of all skill levels to get accepted to "somewhere". I also think there's more coddling of students (i.e. more chances to get past poor grades and continue on) to allow them to stay in the program longer (thus spending more money).

And yes, the OP's school did him a disservice by stringing him along and then dropping him in year 5 out of 6. I'm not saying whether this person is worthy of a third chance or not. Nor am I saying whether he should just quit or not. I don't know anything about them and so I can't say for sure. I'm just saying that from his perspective, the obvious choice at this point is to use whatever explanations he has to try to get back in.
 
Y(and it seems like we are hearing a lot of stories like this.)

I came into this thread to make this point. This must be, what, the third student to post about being dismissed from their program this month? One can't help but wonder if it is reflective of the reduced admission standards combined with these for-profit schools. These days anyone can get into pharmacy school, but does that mean just anyone can pass and become a competent pharmacist?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I came into this thread to make this point. This must be, what, the third student to post about being dismissed from their program this month? One can't help but wonder if it is reflective of the reduced admission standards combined with these for-profit schools. These days anyone can get into pharmacy school, but does that mean just anyone can pass and become a competent pharmacist?

Yep, I also made a post about just this a couple months ago (rebumped) in the pre-pharmacy forum.
 
Top