600k in loans is the new reality for many students

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so i did some calculations with my finaid dept based on cost of attendance (coa) of my school and since i have no money for anything, i will have to loan out pretty much the full cost of attendance; at my school coa is 80k, and based on rapid rising tuition rates, in subsequent years the coa could be 85k, 90k, 95k if im lucky. since interest starts accruing immediately at around 8%, when i graduate we calculated the total loans for each year would average around 105k, multiply that by four for each year of med school and we get around 420k in debt after med school, and with an interest rate of 8%, by the time i would finish residency in four years the final debt would be 570k! they said there are no federal loans which postpone interest unless i do primary care loans which when we did the calculations would come out to only 350k after residency, this might actually make me consider primary care... any thoughts?

if you're dumb enough to pay that much for medical school you deserve the hardships that come with debt.

go in-state.

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if you're dumb enough to pay that much for medical school you deserve the hardships that come with debt.

go in-state.

Not everyone has the stats to get into their state schools. Besides, many state schools are expensive too (all of my state schools charge 35k+ for tuition alone. Plus, it's ultra competitive to get accepted). Though I agree that one must focus on getting into cheap schools.
 
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=891442

Here you go. Read the article linked on the first post of that thread.

The program was never intended to help doctors. It was enacted back in 2007 before the financial meltdown and the talk of fiscal austerity that permeates political discourse in this country today.

As stated before, people really need to understand what they are getting themselves into when they go hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt in a profession with an uncertain future in terms of reimbursements. You can't go in expecting a debt bailout waiting for you down the line.

Where's the AMA to back us up? You'd think that they would be there to help support a program that primarily 1) Helps people in underserved or low-income areas and 2) Helps young doctors
 
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I don't really understand how people have such huge loans? What happened to your family paying for it? I guess people just don't live frugally like they used to and then screw over their kids. Just another example of the moral degradation of this once-great country.

You must be a troll...your posts are inane.

This country became great by people pulling themselves up by their bootstraps and being personally accountable for their actions. Parents have no expectation to contribute to their children's education, and while a small contribution (furniture, computer, etc.) is helpful, they are in no way screwing over their kids by not paying for their education.

Go live somewhere else that than can tolerate complainers and haughty individuals like yourself.
 
I don't really understand how people have such huge loans? What happened to your family paying for it? I guess people just don't live frugally like they used to and then screw over their kids. Just another example of the moral degradation of this once-great country.

Some families can't or won't pay for it.
 
I don't really understand how people have such huge loans? What happened to your family paying for it? I guess people just don't live frugally like they used to and then screw over their kids. Just another example of the moral degradation of this once-great country.

poor attempt at trolling
 
Most families can't for it.
fixed it imo.
i know my family doesn't have that kind of scratch just laying around. loans are inevitable. i know my folks plan on helping me out with the extra things (food, gas, bills, etc) but im pretty much stuck on relying on uncle sam for the majority of the bill. sure hoping my navy application goes through :xf:
 
Before I went for my Tufts interview, I got into Downstate. I kept saying I wouldn't go to Tufts even if I got in b/c of the price, but after the interview I changed my mind and convinced myself that I didn't care about the higher price, I just liked Tufts more for its program and location. But if I do the MD/MBA at Tufts, that will make each year an average of 71k in tuition only, and I will only qualify for GRAD PLUS. (which is what Downstate gave me). When I factor in getting New York residency for Downstate after 1st year of paying normal OOS tuition, it will average out to be 35k per year for tuition. Now I'm thinking I should just go with my original leaning for Downstate even if I get into Tufts this coming week, after reading this thread. Sigh.

Also, my parents are "well off" but not paying for my medical school because they want me to be completely independent, which I agree with. They paid for my undergrad, and now it's my time to live for myself. It's nice to have the option of asking them for help in the future in case the loans do burden my quality of life, but I don't want to depend on them for my medical education.
 
Before I went for my Tufts interview, I got into Downstate. I kept saying I wouldn't go to Tufts even if I got in b/c of the price, but after the interview I changed my mind and convinced myself that I didn't care about the higher price, I just liked Tufts more for its program and location. But if I do the MD/MBA at Tufts, that will make each year an average of 71k in tuition only, and I will only qualify for GRAD PLUS. (which is what Downstate gave me). When I factor in getting New York residency for Downstate after 1st year of paying normal OOS tuition, it will average out to be 35k per year for tuition. Now I'm thinking I should just go with my original leaning for Downstate even if I get into Tufts this coming week, after reading this thread. Sigh.

Also, my parents are "well off" but not paying for my medical school because they want me to be completely independent, which I agree with. They paid for my undergrad, and now it's my time to live for myself. It's nice to have the option of asking them for help in the future in case the loans do burden my quality of life, but I don't want to depend on them for my medical education.

If I were you, I would ask them to finance your education, with low interests. That way, you would still be independent, but not totally screwed. Besides, they get to make some money.

Just food for thought;).
 
If I were you, I would ask them to finance your education, with low interests. That way, you would still be independent, but not totally screwed. Besides, they get to make some money.

Just food for thought;).

Actually, now that I think about it, they're no longer "well off" to the point of paying 60k (ish) per year out of pocket for me (even to pay them off later), and the situation is further complicated by a relatively hostile divorce. Maybe if this were 4 years ago...

Would it be possible to do half parent loans, half government loans? lol.
 
Actually, now that I think about it, they're no longer "well off" to the point of paying 60k (ish) per year out of pocket for me (even to pay them off later), and the situation is further complicated by a relatively hostile divorce. Maybe if this were 4 years ago...

Would it be possible to do half parent loans, half government loans? lol.

Wow, I'm surprised that's even an option. Must be nice. I'm not even sure if my folks can spot me $600...for one year...

Sorry to hear about the divorce though in all seriousness.
 
Therefore, even if I earn as little as $100/hr (less than 67% of national average rate of EM), I would produce ~300k of income working 60hrs/week 49weeks/year. .

Dude...do you know what 60 hrs/week of EM is like? You would burn out so fast.
 
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But don't you think at minimum a doctor should earn enough to have a comparable retirement to those that do other jobs requiring less?

This idea that medicine should just be about joy to me is nonsensical. When you have a world where you get paid for being drunk on TV (Jersey Shore) or manipulate markets and fire people (Businessmen like Mitt Romney), I think doctors and people that actually do important things should be paid more. It's this perpetual lie that they feed pre-meds about money not being important at all and this and that which has driven this profession into lesser reimbursement.

So yes, job satisfaction is important, but it doesn't make getting paid less acceptable.

This is not a meritocracy and never has been. If you can get someone to pay you for acting drunk down the shore, by all means. Or if you have unusual talent at sports or music or driving a race car. Or look good in a bikini. The world doesn't reward you for what you accomplish. Otherwise, you get paid based on what the market says you get paid, or what reimbursements say you get paid. So instead it's probably best to focus on what makes you happy.
 
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Dude...do you know what 60 hrs/week of EM is like? You would burn out so fast.

I know. 60hrs/week in EM is similar to 90hrs/week in other specialties. I would rather endure the physical stress for 3 years than dealing with psychological and financial stress of the loans. I think I could handle the lifestyle of a neurosurgeon resident for few years.

Repaying 400k in 3 years, would result in paying ~50k in interests. Repaying 400k in 10 years, results in paying ~180k in loans. I think 130k difference is worth the temporary sacrifice, don't you?
 
This is not a meritocracy and never has been. If you can get someone to pay you for acting drunk down the shore, by all means. Or if you have unusual talent at sports or music or driving a race car. Or look good in a bikini. The world doesn't reward you for what you accomplish. Otherwise, you get paid based on what the market says you get paid, or what reimbursements say you get paid. So instead it's probably best to focus on what makes you happy.
I understand how the system works, and I'm at peace with it. I also value the job over the money. If I didn't, I'd get an MBA. However, it doesn't mean doctors should sit out and accept whatever crap is handed. The government has enough money to waste on wars, drug wars, and tax cuts for the rich, so doctors need to proactive about getting paid well. Sitting in the sidelines and taking it is just abuse.
 
I understand how the system works, and I'm at peace with it. I also value the job over the money. If I didn't, I'd get an MBA. However, it doesn't mean doctors should sit out and accept whatever crap is handed. The government has enough money to waste on wars, drug wars, and tax cuts for the rich, so doctors need to proactive about getting paid well. Sitting in the sidelines and taking it is just abuse.

Couldn't agree more
 
LOL no. It has nothing to do with saving lives and helping people. That's a nice side effect sometimes, but it's certainly not the goal.

Perhaps it has a little bit to do with helping people? I'd like to think that both on an individual patient basis, and, in terms of my involvement in public policy, I've done something that helped people and that this was more than a "side effect" of my career. Some of this endless discussion is just semantics. It's about having a career, helping people and earning a good income, but, I don't think that "helping people" is the third most important in these three. It's equal to the other two, at the very least, and this is not a matter of semantics.

As always, YMMV, but I honestly find it a bit sad if young doctors don't really think there is real value in what they do in terms of helping people. After 30 years as a physician, I've seen nothing to suggest that we don't help people. I'd have stopped doing patient care and only done research long ago if that was the case.
 
Doesn't EVERYONE use loans for every expense in med school? There's no possible way to do so other than taking loans. It's like mandatory, so it makes no difference at all how many loans we have at the end of the 4 years.

who the **** uses their own money for med school tuition? Why go through such pain, unless you're a multi mullionaire :laugh:


Also, who the **** would ever expect their family to pay for this? That's extremely pathetic, no offense. For college, sure, if they want to. But med school is a six figure investment, and for your parents to pour that much money into their kid seems really silly to me. Especially since the "kid" is a grown adult by matriculation.
 
With all due respect, Law2Doc, but don't you think that doctors are at least entitled to live a lifestyle better than that of a middle class worker? Don't get me wrong, I want to service my community, but not at the cost of all that schooling and debt.

I say not really.

At least not in the beginning. It seems perfectly reasonable that doctors won't be super rich quickly. Only people living in naive-town think this. :laugh:
Everyone knows that you probably have to start off this way(in residency and maybe junior attending), and people are smart enough to know that entitlement is only for people who live in unicorn land. Just cause you put 8 years of schooling doesn't mean you automatically start earning WAY more than everyone instantly....

Basically, the ONLY people that think in terms of entitlement are probably the "toddlers" in the medicine path, which is high school and freshman year of college people. Since people with basic research of the field knows you aren't getting a lot of $$$ in the get go. Noone will ever give a **** about how many years you went to school. People will laugh if you only say that as a way of defense.
 
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But don't you think at minimum a doctor should earn enough to have a comparable retirement to those that do other jobs requiring less?

This idea that medicine should just be about joy to me is nonsensical. When you have a world where you get paid for being drunk on TV (Jersey Shore) or manipulate markets and fire people (Businessmen like Mitt Romney), I think doctors and people that actually do important things should be paid more. It's this perpetual lie that they feed pre-meds about money not being important at all and this and that which has driven this profession into lesser reimbursement.

So yes, job satisfaction is important, but it doesn't make getting paid less acceptable.

Welcome to the real world. Who gives a **** if Blake Griffin or Eli Manning or Jeter makes more than a physician? Or most celebrities? This is a "realism" thing that most idealistic people try to fight and they just will lose 150% of the time.

Basically, enjoying life is the key(at least, that's my key to keeping sane :D)
I agree greatly with Law2Doc. Do what you ENJOY and you will be overall better than the guy making more money than you with only 4 years of school. If you ONLY think someone is better than you because they make more money, have more cars, or a bigger house, then you are probably need to realize noone who matters gives two *****.

I'd rather make "less money" and enjoy the career path I chose, than make 10 million dollars, hate waking up every day, cursing myself out all day waiting for the end of the day/weekend, and overall feeling depressed and sad, making myself hard to be with friends(and who the hell wants to be around someone who mopes about their life), not being able to keep a relationship, and on Sunday nights, dreading the week ahead.
 
Also, who would ever expect their family to pay for this? That's extremely pathetic, no offense. For college, sure, if they want to. But med school is a six figure investment, and for your parents to pour that much money into their kid seems really silly to me. Especially since the "kid" is a grown adult by matriculation.

Different folks have different value systems. For my spouse and me, paying for the post-college education of our children is an important value. My parents worked hard so that I had no debt and although the costs are vastly greater, we are determined that our children will graduate from their post-graduate schools (including medicine) with absolutely no debt. I'm not sure why you think that is silly, but for my spouse and I, it is our single most important financial goal and has been since our children were born.

We ask only that our children do their best to do the same for their own children someday, if that opportunity arises.
 
Welcome to the real world. Who gives a **** if Blake Griffin or Eli Manning or Jeter makes more than a physician? Or most celebrities? This is a "realism" thing that most idealistic people try to fight and they just will lose 150% of the time.

Basically, enjoying life is the key(at least, that's my key to keeping sane :D)
I agree greatly with Law2Doc. Do what you ENJOY and you will be overall better than the guy making more money than you with only 4 years of school. If you ONLY think someone is better than you because they make more money, have more cars, or a bigger house, then you are probably need to realize noone who matters gives two *****.

I'd rather make "less money" and enjoy the career path I chose, than make 10 million dollars, hate waking up every day, cursing myself out all day waiting for the end of the day/weekend, and overall feeling depressed and sad, making myself hard to be with friends(and who the hell wants to be around someone who mopes about their life), not being able to keep a relationship, and on Sunday nights, dreading the week ahead.

But with your 10 million you can buy a jet ski. Have you ever seen anyone sad on a jet ski?
 
I say not really.

At least not in the beginning. It seems perfectly reasonable that doctors won't be super rich quickly. Only people living in naive-town think this. :laugh:
Everyone knows that you probably have to start off this way(in residency and maybe junior attending), and people are smart enough to know that entitlement is only for people who live in unicorn land. Just cause you put 8 years of schooling doesn't mean you automatically start earning WAY more than everyone instantly....

Basically, the ONLY people that think in terms of entitlement are probably the "toddlers" in the medicine path, which is high school and freshman year of college people. Since people with basic research of the field knows you aren't getting a lot of $$$ in the get go. Noone will ever give a **** about how many years you went to school. People will laugh if you only say that as a way of defense.

If you don't feel entitled to earning your wages, someone else will. And that someone else will take your money. See: the gradual decline of physician earnings over the past 30-40 years.
 
Different folks have different value systems. For my spouse and me, paying for the post-college education of our children is an important value. My parents worked hard so that I had no debt and although the costs are vastly greater, we are determined that our children will graduate from their post-graduate schools (including medicine) with absolutely no debt. I'm not sure why you think that is silly, but for my spouse and I, it is our single most important financial goal and has been since our children were born.

We ask only that our children do their best to do the same for their own children someday, if that opportunity arises.

I don't think paying for education as a parent is bad, I guess I felt it was odd if parents would put down six figures for an education, unless they had a lot of money to share. You are right, in that financial goals for people are different. I was thinking more along the lines of "oh man, this might make the parents broke!"

But with your 10 million you can buy a jet ski. Have you ever seen anyone sad on a jet ski?

lol, I can buy a jet ski on a McDonald's cashier salary :)

If you don't feel entitled to earning your wages, someone else will. And that someone else will take your money. See: the gradual decline of physician earnings over the past 30-40 years.

Well, if that person wants to feel entitled, let them live in their bubble. And sure, let them take my money.
 
Welcome to the real world. Who gives a **** if Blake Griffin or Eli Manning or Jeter makes more than a physician? Or most celebrities? This is a "realism" thing that most idealistic people try to fight and they just will lose 150% of the time.

Basically, enjoying life is the key(at least, that's my key to keeping sane :D)
I agree greatly with Law2Doc. Do what you ENJOY and you will be overall better than the guy making more money than you with only 4 years of school. If you ONLY think someone is better than you because they make more money, have more cars, or a bigger house, then you are probably need to realize noone who matters gives two *****.

I'd rather make "less money" and enjoy the career path I chose, than make 10 million dollars, hate waking up every day, cursing myself out all day waiting for the end of the day/weekend, and overall feeling depressed and sad, making myself hard to be with friends(and who the hell wants to be around someone who mopes about their life), not being able to keep a relationship, and on Sunday nights, dreading the week ahead.
Welcome to what real world? I've already been living in it for a long time.

You missed the point of my argument. It's not about job satisfaction. It's not even about thinking someone is worth more because they make more money. Before you think you know more, realize there are adults here too, Yoda. It's about the fact that doctors deserve more compensation and that this approach of "well, I like my job!" is what's killing off the profession. If you really want the brightest and the best, you'll have to pay them like they are. Maybe you'll say I'm not "true to medicine," but if I got paid the same as Joe next door after having to take a 12 year income loss hit, I wouldn't do medicine. At the end of the day it's not just job satisfaction. It's also about putting food on the table and having enough money to die with dignity. Sure, 150-300k sounds good now, but that isn't even close to what doctors made just a few years ago. And with our government bought on both ends, expect that money to go down. We've already started seeing talks about paying for residency. This is completely unacceptable, and any physician that's willing to just sit and take it, is compromising tomorrow's health care.
 
Different folks have different value systems. For my spouse and me, paying for the post-college education of our children is an important value. My parents worked hard so that I had no debt and although the costs are vastly greater, we are determined that our children will graduate from their post-graduate schools (including medicine) with absolutely no debt. I'm not sure why you think that is silly, but for my spouse and I, it is our single most important financial goal and has been since our children were born.

We ask only that our children do their best to do the same for their own children someday, if that opportunity arises.
Seriously. Who is this guy? If I can pay off every bit of schooling my kids have, that's worth it to me. If I don't look out for them and give them the best start possible, who is? If what you're looking is for coldness and street lessons, kids will get enough of those by society.
 
I guess, personally, I don't care at all that 150-300k is not close to what doctors made in the past. And of course a doctor's salary can put food on the table and die with dignity. You don't need THAT much money to "die with dignity."

You are true to medicine, I would never say that.

But...I guess we are different. I think it's fine that after 11 years minimum investment, a physician might not break 150k for example. Maybe in the next year or more. Don't get me wrong, they are highly helpful to society and make an impact, but they are still standard regular human beings. So, they make a decent amount in my eyes. Hell, MOST people think doctors make too much haha There are millions of people better than doctors and brighter than them. So...that's my opinion at least, it might be the minority but eh.

Personally, I'm simply happy if I make a "modest" amount(the number doesn't matter), have a vehicle, have a decent house, money to live happily to spend on hobbies, doing things with friends and significant other, etc. I said this in a previous topic, but I don't give a **** if I have a cool sports car(which is sweet, but not a necessity), lots of yachts, tons of money to invest, and making 10x more than Joe next door. Since my primary goal in life is to be happy, because once it's over, the end.
 
I guess, personally, I don't care at all that 150-300k is not close to what doctors made in the past. And of course a doctor's salary can put food on the table and die with dignity. You don't need THAT much money to "die with dignity."

You are true to medicine, I would never say that.

But...I guess we are different. I think it's fine that after 11 years minimum investment, a physician might not break 150k for example. Maybe in the next year or more. Don't get me wrong, they are highly helpful to society and make an impact, but they are still standard regular human beings. So, they make a decent amount in my eyes. Hell, MOST people think doctors make too much haha There are millions of people better than doctors and brighter than them. So...that's my opinion at least, it might be the minority but eh.

Personally, I'm simply happy if I make a "modest" amount(the number doesn't matter), have a vehicle, have a decent house, money to live happily to spend on hobbies, doing things with friends and significant other, etc. I said this in a previous topic, but I don't give a **** if I have a cool sports car(which is sweet, but not a necessity), lots of yachts, tons of money to invest, and making 10x more than Joe next door. Since my primary goal in life is to be happy, because once it's over, the end.
I'm all for happiness too and respect your position. I think my real issue is that the country clearly has enough money to waste with tax cuts and other useless spending that it's simply bad for the medical profession to just accept taking hits based on that money going nowhere productive. If we lived in a Scandinavian-type of society, I wouldn't mind much because the money goes somewhere productive.
 
I think we should all calm down and remember: mo money, mo problems.
 
Perhaps it has a little bit to do with helping people? I'd like to think that both on an individual patient basis, and, in terms of my involvement in public policy, I've done something that helped people and that this was more than a "side effect" of my career. Some of this endless discussion is just semantics. It's about having a career, helping people and earning a good income, but, I don't think that "helping people" is the third most important in these three. It's equal to the other two, at the very least, and this is not a matter of semantics.

As always, YMMV, but I honestly find it a bit sad if young doctors don't really think there is real value in what they do in terms of helping people. After 30 years as a physician, I've seen nothing to suggest that we don't help people. I'd have stopped doing patient care and only done research long ago if that was the case.

I'm happy to have days when I actually help people, but often if they aren't going to meet you half way, there's not much you can do, and many medical conditions are terminal. If your yardstick for success is helping people, you will have a lot of bad days. My point is that on SDN, there's often a shallow dichotomy suggesting you are either in it for the money, or in it for altruistic reasons. I would suggest both are shallow knee jerk responses. You do this job because you get enjoyment out of it. Money may come, some people may get helped, but I certainly wouldn't measure your career on either of these or you are not going to have a long and happy career. Again, helping people can be a happy byproduct for some, but I wouldn't suggest that t he doctor who deals with terminal or noncompliant patients is any less successful or unhappy.
 
I'm happy to have days when I actually help people, but often if they aren't going to meet you half way, there's not much you can do, and many medical conditions are terminal. If your yardstick for success is helping people, you will have a lot of bad days. My point is that on SDN, there's often a shallow dichotomy suggesting you are either in it for the money, or in it for altruistic reasons. I would suggest both are shallow knee jerk responses. You do this job because you get enjoyment out of it. Money may come, some people may get helped, but I certainly wouldn't measure your career on either of these or you are not going to have a long and happy career. Again, helping people can be a happy byproduct for some, but I wouldn't suggest that t he doctor who deals with terminal or noncompliant patients is any less successful or unhappy.

I think we'll just have to disagree here. I refuse to consider helping people a knee jerk reason, whatever that means, for being a physician. I consider it absolutely an equal partner to good career, and enjoyable career in the reasons to become a physician or almost any health care provider. Of course there are bad days in the business of "helping people", but, in my career, they have been, in my perspective, vastly outnumbered by the good ones. And, despite your belief, I've had a very long career already and haven't changed my mind about this. YMMV. I don't care for drug seeking adults so I don't have that perspective.

Now then, I don't really understand your example of terminal conditions. In my experience, caring for terminal infants, and their families, is amongst the most rewarding and most important work I do in "helping people". Of note is that it most certainly is not the most enjoyable part of it. I do not enjoy having the "talk" with families, in which I must tell them that we've done all they can for their beloved baby and it is time to move in a different direction in their care. That talk is awful to give and I've done it literally hundreds of times in my career. However, "enjoyment" isn't what that type of care-giving is about. It is about helping people, both the terminal infant and the family. I wonder if you've ever seen this aspect of care done "properly" or done "poorly" to see the impact the difference makes in families lives? I'm not talking just about what the physician says/does, but the whole health care team's approach to a dying baby. If compassionate care, hospice care, and pain-free withdrawal of care is not helping people, what is?
 
While i'm not fond of loan repayments, I am not that bothered by the money issue in medicine. I mean, most MDs are going to land themselves in the upper 20% of wealth in the nation...which is saying something.

And really-do we need to gripe about the money that much? Oh wait, i forgot i'm talking to premeds/med students/doctors where even being in the upper 20th percentile is not good enough (cuz hahvahd and jhu take only the top 1 percentile, my bad)...and obviously we all need to be in the upper 1 percentile because our gunner attitudes can't take anything less... (I'm sorry, I feel like we're comparing incomes as if it's like some stupid step1/mcat/gpa or something-then we can go all day about "entitlement for acceptance" and why someone hasn't been accepted bc their gpa/mcat is a 4.0/40)

I think for a lot of us this is hard to see because we're all educated individuals upon which most (of course not all) come from affluent families, etc etc. So we surround ourselves with people like us. Obviously it's harder to see that we're actually pretty well off. Now 600K of debt is on the HIGH side nonetheless, but really, I think you make a decision on your priorities-Do you pay it off fast and live frugal first? or do you pay it off slowly and spend money on that new bmw/audi whatever you wanna drive?

With IBR, I can't see the payments being THAT bad either.

I thought I cared a lot about the money at first, but after working in a hospital and having real clinical experience, it doesn't matter all that much. I enjoy seeing the patients that I do, and as long as I have a roof, a family that i can (for the most part) take care of financially, and debts are relatively under control, i'm fine. I'm kinda over the whole "save lives and make a difference every day" type of mentality, just cuz working in the ER kinda wears that out on you, but I still think that medicine is a calling more than just a job that pays well. Frankly, i'd rather have a doc who sees medicine as some sort of calling work on my family than one that doesn't...
 
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Doesn't EVERYONE use loans for every expense in med school? There's no possible way to do so other than taking loans. It's like mandatory, so it makes no difference at all how many loans we have at the end of the 4 years.

who the **** uses their own money for med school tuition? Why go through such pain, unless you're a multi mullionaire :laugh:


Also, who the **** would ever expect their family to pay for this? That's extremely pathetic, no offense. For college, sure, if they want to. But med school is a six figure investment, and for your parents to pour that much money into their kid seems really silly to me. Especially since the "kid" is a grown adult by matriculation.

What do you mean by this. I've been working for 3 years post college and have enough saved up enough to match my scholarship so I don't have to take out loans. I feel like a lot of people I know are financing school in other ways such as using money in stocks, etc. Why would you take out a 6.8% interest loan if you already have the money.
 
https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=public+service+loan+forgiveness

Also, even if you don't enter public service, you can discharge your student loans after 25 years of payments, and the maximum payments are 10% of your discretionary income.

So it really wouldn't matter if medical school costs a billion dollars a year (and I'm sure Tufts will be charging that in a few years, lol). You simply pay a 10% surtax on your discretionary income, let the principle and income accumulate uncontrollably to the trillions of dollars, and then after 25 years stop paying them.

Fundamentally, people are worried that servicing their debt is going to put them into the poor house. But that has never been the case, and never will be the case. If you can't even afford 10% of your discretionary income to service your debt, you must be making, what, $24K as an attending? Even residents make more than that!

???? If you're making $24k, your payments are $0.
 
For all those talking about IBR and how it "won't be that bad", some of us 1) weren't offered a lot of federal loans for undergrad + had to take out primarily private loans and 2) had to pay full sticker price for their Ivy despite how often they are touted as being "very generous with financial aid." This leads to some of us already having a post-med school level of debt before even matriculating. I'm talking on the order of a little over 200k.

I'm very worried about residency due to the payments I'll have to make on my private loans. Although the federal loans I'll be taking out during med school can be paid off using IBR during residency, my private loans do not have that option. I was VERY VERY lucky to get in this cycle since my entire paycheck goes towards paying of loans. I would have ran out of money if I didn't get my tax refund check and if I didn't get to defer my loans this summer once I matriculate. Problem is, my salary as a resident isn't going to be much more than I'm currently making...

No idea how I'll be able to do it during residency. I already live in the cheapest place I could find (rent + utilities = 330 per month. Not the safest area of Philly...) and it's still not enough.

On top of that, as much as I'd like to do something like family medicine or IM (and as tempting as the relatively short residency length is), I feel like the only way I'd ever be able to pay off the around 600k (this number does apply to me...) that I will be at is to do something surgical. Granted, surgery does REALLY interest me. But it still feels sucky to think that if I don't get into a surgical residency, I probably wouldn't be able to ever pay off my entire principal. It also kills me that I'll have to push off starting a family until things become somewhat manageable, if ever....

:(

Sorry about the rant, just frustrated
 
What do you mean by this. I've been working for 3 years post college and have enough saved up enough to match my scholarship so I don't have to take out loans. I feel like a lot of people I know are financing school in other ways such as using money in stocks, etc. Why would you take out a 6.8% interest loan if you already have the money.

What do you do that you've saved up enough to pay for half(?) of your medical school in three years? You must either make quite a bit for someone three years out of college or have very minimal living expenses.
 
What do you do that you've saved up enough to pay for half(?) of your medical school in three years? You must either make quite a bit for someone three years out of college or have very minimal living expenses.

I don't want my previous post to be misleading...my parents are paying for my living expenses and I am only responsible for tuition. I am attending my state school with a 28K tuition where I have received a 15k/yr grant. So over 4 years I will spend around 60k on tuition. I do research for a biotech company making 45k a year and wait tables 4 nights a week at a local restaurant ($150 per night). up until last month I have lived with my parents (ie no expenses) so I have been able to save nearly all of the money I have made to pay for medical school.

I just was not sure what you meant about its being absolutely crazy for someone to pay for medical school out of pocket, as though its a bad investment to do so.
 
While i'm not fond of loan repayments, I am not that bothered by the money issue in medicine. I mean, most MDs are going to land themselves in the upper 20% of wealth in the nation...which is saying something.

And really-do we need to gripe about the money that much? Oh wait, i forgot i'm talking to premeds/med students/doctors where even being in the upper 20th percentile is not good enough (cuz hahvahd and jhu take only the top 1 percentile, my bad)...and obviously we all need to be in the upper 1 percentile because our gunner attitudes can't take anything less... (I'm sorry, I feel like we're comparing incomes as if it's like some stupid step1/mcat/gpa or something-then we can go all day about "entitlement for acceptance" and why someone hasn't been accepted bc their gpa/mcat is a 4.0/40)

I think for a lot of us this is hard to see because we're all educated individuals upon which most (of course not all) come from affluent families, etc etc. So we surround ourselves with people like us. Obviously it's harder to see that we're actually pretty well off. Now 600K of debt is on the HIGH side nonetheless, but really, I think you make a decision on your priorities-Do you pay it off fast and live frugal first? or do you pay it off slowly and spend money on that new bmw/audi whatever you wanna drive?

With IBR, I can't see the payments being THAT bad either.

I thought I cared a lot about the money at first, but after working in a hospital and having real clinical experience, it doesn't matter all that much. I enjoy seeing the patients that I do, and as long as I have a roof, a family that i can (for the most part) take care of financially, and debts are relatively under control, i'm fine. I'm kinda over the whole "save lives and make a difference every day" type of mentality, just cuz working in the ER kinda wears that out on you, but I still think that medicine is a calling more than just a job that pays well. Frankly, i'd rather have a doc who sees medicine as some sort of calling work on my family than one that doesn't...
I do not come from an affluent family. I know you didn't say everyone, so I'm clarifying for myself only.

I doubt newer, younger doctors are in the upper 20% of wealth. They might earn in the top 20% when they become attending, but wealth is a measurement of how much you have after expenses. If the bulk of your paycheck goes to paying off student loans and your money comes after 12 years of not earning money, you're not in the 20%.
 
I know. 60hrs/week in EM is similar to 90hrs/week in other specialties. I would rather endure the physical stress for 3 years than dealing with psychological and financial stress of the loans. I think I could handle the lifestyle of a neurosurgeon resident for few years.

Repaying 400k in 3 years, would result in paying ~50k in interests. Repaying 400k in 10 years, results in paying ~180k in loans. I think 130k difference is worth the temporary sacrifice, don't you?

I don't know. Never been there, but it sounds real friggen hard.
 
I don't want my previous post to be misleading...my parents are paying for my living expenses and I am only responsible for tuition. I am attending my state school with a 28K tuition where I have received a 15k/yr grant. So over 4 years I will spend around 60k on tuition. I do research for a biotech company making 45k a year and wait tables 4 nights a week at a local restaurant ($150 per night). up until last month I have lived with my parents (ie no expenses) so I have been able to save nearly all of the money I have made to pay for medical school.

I just was not sure what you meant about its being absolutely crazy for someone to pay for medical school out of pocket, as though its a bad investment to do so.

You have been very fortunate. Your parents have been subsidizing your living for the past several years and will pay for your living expenses during school. So due to largely to your parents charity you will be coming out about $100k ahead. That's surely nice of them (and of course props to you for making a financially smart move and living at home), but for many students, using up so much of his or her parents' resources is not an option or something they would not want to do anyway. And the scholarship is a significant detail also, as you are really only covering a very small fraction of your total medical school expenses out of your own pocket. Anyway, it seems you have been pretty smart financially and are fortunate to have good support too! Congrats.
 
I do not come from an affluent family. I know you didn't say everyone, so I'm clarifying for myself only.

I doubt newer, younger doctors are in the upper 20% of wealth. They might earn in the top 20% when they become attending, but wealth is a measurement of how much you have after expenses. If the bulk of your paycheck goes to paying off student loans and your money comes after 12 years of not earning money, you're not in the 20%.

Triage, I'm on the same boat as you. If I consider my living situation in comparison to many of my peers/colleagues, I'd say i'm more on the bottom end of the spectrum. My parents are both blue-collar workers...mechanic and post office...nothin special...If I compare myself with the patients I see at the hospital, I'd say I'm pretty well off. I guess it's all based on perspective.

Well, regarding the money issue...wouldn't IBR help the repayment though?
 
I do not come from an affluent family. I know you didn't say everyone, so I'm clarifying for myself only.

I doubt newer, younger doctors are in the upper 20% of wealth. They might earn in the top 20% when they become attending, but wealth is a measurement of how much you have after expenses. If the bulk of your paycheck goes to paying off student loans and your money comes after 12 years of not earning money, you're not in the 20%.

There is no 12 years of sacrifice or 12 years of not making money in medicine. Unless you come from extreme circumstances, going to college is not a sacrifice, it's a privilege. There are also plenty of people that work 1/2 to full time while going to undergrad so even "not making money" at this time is an incorrect blanket statement. Sure, if you have a choice, you're not going to work during undergrad, because it makes it harder, but it's definitely not the only option. Now, the four years of medical school, generally, working isn't an option, so I'll grant you that, but once you get to residency, you're getting paid. The average salary in the US is approximately the same as the starting PGY-1 resident salary.

Now the cost of a medical education makes the residency salary seem like a pittance, so argue that the cost of the education necessitates a higher salary, but don't argue that going to college and living on borrowed money in medical school to be educated is a sacrifice. It's not.
 
Now, the four years of medical school, generally, working isn't an option, so I'll grant you that, but once you get to residency, you're getting paid. The average salary in the US is approximately the same as the starting PGY-1 resident salary.

Not true because that figure is based on your average Joe-schmo working 40 hours a week, whereas residents work 2x that number, if not more. So, the resident salary is in fact HALF of the average salary in the US.

<Cylon in disguse>


TOASTER!!!!



TOASTER!!!!
 
Do you really believe that the majority of people work on a strict hourly basis, especially if they are making over $40,000 a year? Employers go out of their way to make sure that as many people as possible are considered exempt for wage hour laws and work for a fixed salary irrespective of how many extra hours they work. True hourly wages are rare, unless your at the bottom of the echelon in industries like food service and retail, or you're unionized or in a historically unionized industry.
 
With all due respect, Law2Doc, but don't you think that doctors are at least entitled to live a lifestyle better than that of a middle class worker? Don't get me wrong, I want to service my community, but not at the cost of all that schooling and debt.

What makes you think you are entitled to anything as a doctor. Very poor wording.
 
After a post on the first page, I just went on the Tufts website...

Cost of attendance is just a little over $84,000:eek::eek::eek:

Thank god I had the chance to go a state school. How can anyone justify making their students take out that much in loans? Are there a lot of scholarships at least? Am I just singling out one school, or are most private schools like this now?

For premeds: Go to the cheapest place you can. It's what you do when you get there that matters most.
 
Not true because that figure is based on your average Joe-schmo working 40 hours a week, whereas residents work 2x that number, if not more. So, the resident salary is in fact HALF of the average salary in the US.

Actually, that's not even true. PGY1 salary is approximately equivalent to the average HOUSEHOLD salary in the US - not individual income.
 
No I didn't. For a married person with two kids living in Texas, 77800 goes to federal withholding, 4624 to social security, and 4350 to social security. That leaves $213,223 of post tax income. Deduct another 13k for health insurance, you'll end with 200k. Live on 50k and pay 150k toward your loans. To pay 400k @7.35% interest (combination of grad plus and stafford) in 3 years, you need to pay 149k/year toward your loans.

Here are the calculators:

http://www.paycheckcity.com/calculator/netpay/us/texas/result.html
http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/loanpayments.cgi

Props on a great, though tough plan. It's always nice to see how other people are planning ahead, especially in the specialties I'm considering. EM is definitely a contender; but I really won't know where I'm leaning until after core and a few elective rotations sometime in early M4.
-----

I figured I'd share my relevant post in a similar thread for those of you interested. As a preemptive statement, as some of you have already attacked those of us that will be heavily indebted, I wouldn't be happy in any other discipline and am willing to do what it takes to balance a job I love and a comfortable (neither lavish nor destitute) lifestyle. I'm planning ahead and hope to attend my lower cost state-schools in addition to seeking need-based and post-grad help.

I've already accumulated over $100k in my undergraduate loans and own my own home and vehicle (read an additional $100k). Now consider my wife's debt, nearing $200k in her undergraduate and graduate loans combined, and the fact that she'll be making $30-50k a year when she graduates (hind-sight is always 20-20). We're part of a growing trend of an increasingly economically disadvantaged cohort of incoming med students. Needless to say, I'm looking at all of my options as I hope to enter med school this summer. It's very frightening regardless of the many positive and negative things mentioned above. Nevertheless, I felt the following two options needed a little elaboration for those of you leaning on them as potential solutions to your future indebtedness.

For those interested in the Public Service Loan Forgiveness programs, please keep in mind that most, though not all, only repay primary care, OBGYN, and psychiatry specialties. Those wishing to pursue subspecialties or surgical specialties still do not have nearly as many repayment options as the aforementioned specialties. Each state has its own rules and may have additional programs. I recommend you look at them all if you're worried about the debt. Also be advised that the positions are limited. You will have to apply and compete with other grads. I'd post a bunch of links for you, but don't have the time. Feel free to PM me if interested. I've done a ton of research and would be happy to help fellow indebted students.

For those looking into HPSP, please be aware that your health may preclude you from receiving the scholarship. I just found that out the other day. Something as simple as high blood pressure, your weight, or an inability to run a mile within a certain time limit for any reason can nix your eligibility. They Navy and Air Force seem to have more lax standards regarding health than the Army, though. Also pay attention to the fact that you're required to apply to the military residency match, ranking two specialties. If you fail to match both, then and only then can you apply to the NRMP (normal match). The military match is awesome in some respects (i.e., better chance for matching to competitive specialties since you're competing with far less grads), but lacks in other respects (e.g., limited specialties by branch, much more limited in potential hospitals).

Another facet not yet mentioned, is that many private and academic recruiters also offer loan repayment programs or sign-on bonuses as part of their wooing/advertising process, but wait to explain them during your interview. If any attendings are still lurking, they'd be much better suited to discuss that aspect.

I hope this helped someone.
 
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