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There is a second aspect that isn't getting discussed here and that is the other costs that physicians incur during training. Malpractice insurance premiums are enormous for many specialties. A lot of people figure that once they're making "Doctor Money" they can rapidly pay down their debt. $200,000 sounds like a lot of money, but when you lose $60,000 to taxes and another $35,000 to $70,000 in insurance premiums, that number gets a lot smaller.
There is a second aspect that isn't getting discussed here and that is the other costs that physicians incur during training. Malpractice insurance premiums are enormous for many specialties. A lot of people figure that once they're making "Doctor Money" they can rapidly pay down their debt. $200,000 sounds like a lot of money, but when you lose $60,000 to taxes and another $35,000 to $70,000 in insurance premiums, that number gets a lot smaller.
I think this is completely unreasonable. Given the years of training and sacrifice involved, earning just as much as the guy with no degree is completely unacceptable. I don't say this because I'm after big bucks, but think about it. You spent about 12 years of your life in school + Residency. That's 12 years of not really earning money. If by the time you get out you're the same as Joe next door, you've lost 12 years of potential retirement money (and the pay raises involved in 12 years), so actually the middle class lifestyle involves earning less than the guy next door. When your job requires greater sacrifices, you should be earning more.
Aren't malpractice cinsurance costs sometimes paid by the employer/group or did I make that up?
This thread scares me....
Not because I will have to deal with this problem. I will, but I think of myself as a resourceful person who will find a way through....
Rather, I am afraid for the next generation of physicians. If the trend continues (stagnant pay, increasing school costs, increasing taxes...), things will only be worse for them. I have a nephew who is 1 year old this coming month. When (if) he applies to med school 20 years from now, is he going to be looking at 1 million in debt?
That is where we are headed.
The next generation of physicians? More like the current generation and not just physicians. Tuition inflation is absolutely ridiculous and the worthless jerkoff politicians all the way up to the White House refuse to do anything about it. We're facing unprecedented debt in the worst hiring economy this country has ever seen: offshoring, outsourcing, an enormous cultural and monetary divide between executive and non-executive employees, "entry level" jobs with 1-3 years experience required, refusal to train new employees...the race to the bottom! It's the perfect **** storm. Welcome to America in 2013!
The next generation of physicians? More like the current generation and not just physicians. Tuition inflation is absolutely ridiculous and the worthless jerkoff politicians all the way up to the White House refuse to do anything about it. We're facing unprecedented debt in the worst hiring economy this country has ever seen: offshoring, outsourcing, an enormous cultural and monetary divide between executive and non-executive employees, "entry level" jobs with 1-3 years experience required, refusal to train new employees...the race to the bottom! It's the perfect **** storm. Welcome to America in 2013!
At least doctors will be at the top of the sinking ship.
I'm curious if dental students have as much concern about debt as we do, considering their tution is even higher than ours.
I think ya'll are overrating how much you will actually be paying back at one time. Its not like just because you are still paying back loans that you are still poor.
I know a Podiatrist who does very very well and he is in his mid 50's and just paid back his loans. And its not like he just started living a good life.
I think even if the healthcare system is reformed, the issue still remains that exccessive debt accumulates for medical students... And I for one cannot see WHY it must be more and more expensive each year to train the same # of students, or even a little bit more students... Shouldn't all this new technology and reforms in education actually make education cheaper?
This thread scares me....
Not because I will have to deal with this problem. I will, but I think of myself as a resourceful person who will find a way through....
Rather, I am afraid for the next generation of physicians. If the trend continues (stagnant pay, increasing school costs, increasing taxes...), things will only be worse for them. I have a nephew who is 1 year old this coming month. When (if) he applies to med school 20 years from now, is he going to be looking at 1 million in debt?
That is where we are headed.
The next generation of physicians? More like the current generation and not just physicians. Tuition inflation is absolutely ridiculous and the worthless jerkoff politicians all the way up to the White House refuse to do anything about it. We're facing unprecedented debt in the worst hiring economy this country has ever seen: offshoring, outsourcing, an enormous cultural and monetary divide between executive and non-executive employees, "entry level" jobs with 1-3 years experience required, refusal to train new employees...the race to the bottom! It's the perfect **** storm. Welcome to America in 2013!
Ehh the Supreme Court/Constitution is more to blame. As long as it is legal/constitutional for the top .01% to fund political campaigns and provide cushy jobs to politicians who do their bidding once they leave office(this is the big one people dont talk about), nothing is going to change it doesnt matter who is in the White House/Congress the very fact they get elected means they dont represent the interest of most of the country.
+1
Campaign finance reform and term limits would do wonders for issues across the board. But for now, "corporations are people, my friend"
+1
Campaign finance reform and term limits would do wonders for issues across the board. But for now, "corporations are people, my friend"
I think ya'll are overrating how much you will actually be paying back at one time. Its not like just because you are still paying back loans that you are still poor.
I know a Podiatrist who does very very well and he is in his mid 50's and just paid back his loans. And its not like he just started living a good life.
We were so close in 2008. But alas, an unprecedented THREE Pinocchios!
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/06/obama_reneges_on_public_financ.html
To be fair from a legal standpoint I think the Supreme Court made the right decision. The problem is that the Constitution is an old document drafted by men in a different world, with different values. But we have all been brainwashed since birth to worship it as if it was the Bible.
Not sure if this is a troll post...
Obama's presidency has definitely delivered change in a number of areas, but Washington culture and faith in democracy are not among them.
Who here is actually going to have close to 600k in loans? I'm going to paying 18k a year for tuition. Maybe 10 k a year for living. So about 120k plus the interest. You gotta be living in New York or la and going to like USC or an expensive med school in New York to rack up that much. Is this 600k debt really common at a lot other schools.
The good news is that the fact that you cant get blood from a stone means that it is all monopoly money at this point, which is the only reason things like IBR were introduced. Better to get 10% over 10/25 years than nothing. And if things truly go bad at least Physicians will have a skill that is valued in most of the world.
The amount forgiven under IBR will be treated as taxable income. The only way to avoid this is by working at a non-profit for 10 years. Let's say a doctor leaves medicine directly after med school, or maybe after residency, to work for a for-profit entity. His income tax owed for the year on which his loans are forgiven will be based on his usual income, minus any deductions, plus $200-300k for the loans to be forgiven.
Let's pretend he gets a good job and makes $87.85k/year. He will be taxed whatever he is normally taxed in addition to 28% of $95k and 33% of $5-105k. His income tax owed for that year will increase by $28-61k. The amount owed is likely much greater as I'm not factoring in accrued interest on $200-300k in loans at 7.9% interest (Grad PLUS rates.)
The IRS will get blood from a stone, too. The IRS failure to pay penalty is 0.5% of the owed tax for each month the tax is not paid in full. Want to ignore that? Your wages will be garnished or maybe they'll throw you in prison.
I can't help but notice that most of your posts on this forum are extremely negative, probably the most cynical of any premed I've seen. Is there a reason, after all of your ill-fated thoughts about the profession, as to why you still want to go to medical school? If you hate this path so much, why not just choose another career while the option is still available?
Im always a little shocked at how important money is to most premeds. I guess the benefit of growing up in a very modest home is that money isn't a big priority to me. Even if I make the same amount as my neighbor working straight out of college, I know I'll be happy with my job and happy with my life. As long as I have enough money for a home, food, and take care of my family, then I don't need to have a 500k salary, and I certainly dont think being a doctor entitles me to one.
I have no idea how people are expecting to live on 10k/year in medical school/residency
Wat? The average yearly tuition is like 30,000. Add about 1,000 to 1,500 for health insurance, and then your daily expenses, and you can actually live on 10,000 a year. Thus, 40,000 a year*4=160,000. The unsubsidized stafford loans will grow at 6.8%, so it's about 170,000 when you graduate med school.
You make 40,000 in residency and if you live on the same 10,000 a year (yes, very feasible if you dont' spend money on cable tv, booze, smartphone, etc), you have 30,000 left. Pay ~12,000 so your loans don't grow on the initial 170,000 debt and you have 18,000 left. Invest 6,000 of it in your ROTH IRA and you have 12,000 left, which you can apply towards your loans or invest.
Now, if you have a private school college debt that was 160,000, then in most cases it was your choice to attend the school instead of a cheaper one.
You have a lot of choices, you can live in a 1,000 apartment/month place, lease a BMW 3 series car, spend 50 bucks each weekend on drinks, and buy a 2,500 MacBook Pro. It's your choice, but don't complain about the loans then.
To be fair from a legal standpoint I think the Supreme Court made the right decision. The problem is that the Constitution is an old document drafted by men in a different world, with different values. But we have all been brainwashed since birth to worship it as if it was the Bible.
It's a valid one -- there are easier ways to become wealthy than pursuing medicine.
I very much disagree with this, ignoring the constitution is what has gotten us into the trouble we are in. Politicians use the constitution as a talking point, but none of them actually pay any attention to what it says.
The problem is our whole government/political system is full of one type of person. Politicians.
Absolutely untrue.
... it's definitely true. It is incredibly easier to earn more money over your lifetime in a finance career than in medicine. If you are you smart/personable enough to get into medical school, there's a very solid chance you can land a lucrative job at a bank and succeed.
Enjoy being poor by yourself. I'd prefer not to get robbed by the system while pretending to be a saint.
... it's definitely true. It is incredibly easier to earn more money over your lifetime in a finance career than in medicine. If you are you smart/personable enough to get into medical school, there's a very solid chance you can land a lucrative job at a bank and succeed.
You have no idea what you're talking about. I've argued this point dozens of times before and I've had former i-bankers agree with me: unless you have a degree from HPY/MIT/Stanford or unless you have an amazing connection, you're not getting the type of finance job that can pay you $175k/year by the time you're 32 -- you know, the kinds of salaries a physician can earn in the lowest paying and least competitive specialties.