600k in loans is the new reality for many students

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There is a second aspect that isn't getting discussed here and that is the other costs that physicians incur during training. Malpractice insurance premiums are enormous for many specialties. A lot of people figure that once they're making "Doctor Money" they can rapidly pay down their debt. $200,000 sounds like a lot of money, but when you lose $60,000 to taxes and another $35,000 to $70,000 in insurance premiums, that number gets a lot smaller.
 
There is a second aspect that isn't getting discussed here and that is the other costs that physicians incur during training. Malpractice insurance premiums are enormous for many specialties. A lot of people figure that once they're making "Doctor Money" they can rapidly pay down their debt. $200,000 sounds like a lot of money, but when you lose $60,000 to taxes and another $35,000 to $70,000 in insurance premiums, that number gets a lot smaller.

Thank God Texas limits malpractice pay outs. Love our state more everyday.

but +1 to the taxes, most docs make over 250k, and the rate went to 35 to 39%. With Congress spending like crazy, and with our national debt approaching 17 trillion, taxes are def gonna be raised even more in the future.

So so sad the way our union is going.
 
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There is a second aspect that isn't getting discussed here and that is the other costs that physicians incur during training. Malpractice insurance premiums are enormous for many specialties. A lot of people figure that once they're making "Doctor Money" they can rapidly pay down their debt. $200,000 sounds like a lot of money, but when you lose $60,000 to taxes and another $35,000 to $70,000 in insurance premiums, that number gets a lot smaller.

Aren't malpractice cinsurance costs sometimes paid by the employer/group or did I make that up?
 
I think this is completely unreasonable. Given the years of training and sacrifice involved, earning just as much as the guy with no degree is completely unacceptable. I don't say this because I'm after big bucks, but think about it. You spent about 12 years of your life in school + Residency. That's 12 years of not really earning money. If by the time you get out you're the same as Joe next door, you've lost 12 years of potential retirement money (and the pay raises involved in 12 years), so actually the middle class lifestyle involves earning less than the guy next door. When your job requires greater sacrifices, you should be earning more.

The "average joe" still will make less than you and have no job security. On top of that he probably works 50-60 a week himself if he is lucky enough to find an extra part time job.

People here dont realize that the median American HOUSEHOLD income is around 50k a year. That in many cases means dual incomes.

Edit: 600k is ridiculous of course, but what most people here dont realize is that life sucks financially(at least by what used to be American standards) for almost everybody in this country who wasnt born to the right family.
 
Aren't malpractice cinsurance costs sometimes paid by the employer/group or did I make that up?

I've always heard that physician salary quotes are after malpractice insurance. The only time I think you would worry about malpractice is if you were starting your own practice group or if you joined a ****ty practice group that made you pay your own.

Malpractice is also specialty and state dependent. Ob/Gyn is the highest, I remember hearing rates of $90k/year in the most expensive states. FM is like $5k/year from what I remember.
 
"Along with expectations, there is the reality that doctor salaries (with notable exceptions) have been fairly static since 1969:
physician%20salaries%201996.png

even as the cost of living, price of homes, college, etc have gone up. And medical school debt. "

source: http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/10/why_do_doctors_accept_gifts.html
 
Threads like these are why I'm deciding to live with family during med school. I'm hoping the hit to my social life will be worth it when I don't have to pay as much per month on loans.
 
This thread scares me....

Not because I will have to deal with this problem. I will, but I think of myself as a resourceful person who will find a way through....

Rather, I am afraid for the next generation of physicians. If the trend continues (stagnant pay, increasing school costs, increasing taxes...), things will only be worse for them. I have a nephew who is 1 year old this coming month. When (if) he applies to med school 20 years from now, is he going to be looking at 1 million in debt?

That is where we are headed.

:scared:
 
ITT: Someone was wrong 11 months ago? THIS CANNOT STAND.

Seriously: you're not going to make as much money as you want, but you'll make plenty enough to live on. Your salary will probably drop, not rise, in the future, but much of this drop will be due to inflation.
 
This thread scares me....

Not because I will have to deal with this problem. I will, but I think of myself as a resourceful person who will find a way through....

Rather, I am afraid for the next generation of physicians. If the trend continues (stagnant pay, increasing school costs, increasing taxes...), things will only be worse for them. I have a nephew who is 1 year old this coming month. When (if) he applies to med school 20 years from now, is he going to be looking at 1 million in debt?

That is where we are headed.

:scared:

The next generation of physicians? More like the current generation and not just physicians. Tuition inflation is absolutely ridiculous and the worthless jerkoff politicians all the way up to the White House refuse to do anything about it. We're facing unprecedented debt in the worst hiring economy this country has ever seen: offshoring, outsourcing, an enormous cultural and monetary divide between executive and non-executive employees, "entry level" jobs with 1-3 years experience required, refusal to train new employees...the race to the bottom! It's the perfect **** storm. Welcome to America in 2013!
 
The next generation of physicians? More like the current generation and not just physicians. Tuition inflation is absolutely ridiculous and the worthless jerkoff politicians all the way up to the White House refuse to do anything about it. We're facing unprecedented debt in the worst hiring economy this country has ever seen: offshoring, outsourcing, an enormous cultural and monetary divide between executive and non-executive employees, "entry level" jobs with 1-3 years experience required, refusal to train new employees...the race to the bottom! It's the perfect **** storm. Welcome to America in 2013!

The future sure is looking up, huh? :rolleyes:
 
The next generation of physicians? More like the current generation and not just physicians. Tuition inflation is absolutely ridiculous and the worthless jerkoff politicians all the way up to the White House refuse to do anything about it. We're facing unprecedented debt in the worst hiring economy this country has ever seen: offshoring, outsourcing, an enormous cultural and monetary divide between executive and non-executive employees, "entry level" jobs with 1-3 years experience required, refusal to train new employees...the race to the bottom! It's the perfect **** storm. Welcome to America in 2013!

At least doctors will be at the top of the sinking ship.:laugh:

I'm curious if dental students have as much concern about debt as we do, considering their tution is even higher than ours.
 
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At least doctors will be at the top of the sinking ship.:laugh:

I'm curious if dental students have as much concern about debt as we do, considering their tution is even higher than ours.

At least dentists don't need to do residencies, so they can start making nice salaries right after dental school.
 
I think ya'll are overrating how much you will actually be paying back at one time. Its not like just because you are still paying back loans that you are still poor.

I know a Podiatrist who does very very well and he is in his mid 50's and just paid back his loans. And its not like he just started living a good life.
 
Im always a little shocked at how important money is to most premeds. I guess the benefit of growing up in a very modest home is that money isn't a big priority to me. Even if I make the same amount as my neighbor working straight out of college, I know I'll be happy with my job and happy with my life. As long as I have enough money for a home, food, and take care of my family, then I don't need to have a 500k salary, and I certainly dont think being a doctor entitles me to one.
 
I think ya'll are overrating how much you will actually be paying back at one time. Its not like just because you are still paying back loans that you are still poor.

I know a Podiatrist who does very very well and he is in his mid 50's and just paid back his loans. And its not like he just started living a good life.

+1

God forbid you buy a house or anything. Keeps you poor for decades, right?


Edit: but rising tuition is a legitimate concern for all students right now, and physician pay/reimbursement/malpractice is definitely something to improve as the nation turns its attention to reforming the healthcare system. But for physicians, it's not the looming apocalypse we may be making it out to be.
 
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I think even if the healthcare system is reformed, the issue still remains that exccessive debt accumulates for medical students... And I for one cannot see WHY it must be more and more expensive each year to train the same # of students, or even a little bit more students... Shouldn't all this new technology and reforms in education actually make education cheaper?
 
I think even if the healthcare system is reformed, the issue still remains that exccessive debt accumulates for medical students... And I for one cannot see WHY it must be more and more expensive each year to train the same # of students, or even a little bit more students... Shouldn't all this new technology and reforms in education actually make education cheaper?

True, and that comes from the massive issue of rising education costs in general.

I've gotten a few things from reading about it a bit (mostly headaches), but it's a big combination of things that drive costs up: easily granted and forgiving loans, more students than ever and therefore necessary expansion, students staying longer, cuts in state funding since 2000, the great recession, modern expansions to make schools attractive, rising executive pay, unnatural consumer behavior due to separation between consumer and price of product (similar to healthcare)

Fixing this is probably going to take something as drastic and comprehensive as a healthcare reform-type of effort. Costs need to go down but it needs to be done without completely screwing over people in the process.
 
This thread scares me....

Not because I will have to deal with this problem. I will, but I think of myself as a resourceful person who will find a way through....

Rather, I am afraid for the next generation of physicians. If the trend continues (stagnant pay, increasing school costs, increasing taxes...), things will only be worse for them. I have a nephew who is 1 year old this coming month. When (if) he applies to med school 20 years from now, is he going to be looking at 1 million in debt?

That is where we are headed.

:scared:

Not sure if this is a troll post...:shrug:
 
The next generation of physicians? More like the current generation and not just physicians. Tuition inflation is absolutely ridiculous and the worthless jerkoff politicians all the way up to the White House refuse to do anything about it. We're facing unprecedented debt in the worst hiring economy this country has ever seen: offshoring, outsourcing, an enormous cultural and monetary divide between executive and non-executive employees, "entry level" jobs with 1-3 years experience required, refusal to train new employees...the race to the bottom! It's the perfect **** storm. Welcome to America in 2013!

Ehh the Supreme Court/Constitution is more to blame. As long as it is legal/constitutional for the top .01% to fund political campaigns without limit and provide cushy jobs to politicians who do their bidding once they leave office(this is the big one people dont talk about), nothing is going to change it doesnt matter who is in the White House/Congress the very fact they get elected means they dont represent the interest of most of the country.

Why do you think student loans were made non dischargeable in the first place via bankruptcy even when virtually nobody was discharging them?

The good news is that the fact that you cant get blood from a stone means that it is all monopoly money at this point, which is the only reason things like IBR were introduced. Better to get 10% over 10/25 years than nothing. And if things truly go bad at least Physicians will have a skill that is valued in most of the world.
 
Ehh the Supreme Court/Constitution is more to blame. As long as it is legal/constitutional for the top .01% to fund political campaigns and provide cushy jobs to politicians who do their bidding once they leave office(this is the big one people dont talk about), nothing is going to change it doesnt matter who is in the White House/Congress the very fact they get elected means they dont represent the interest of most of the country.

+1

Campaign finance reform and term limits would do wonders for issues across the board. But for now, "corporations are people, my friend"
 
+1

Campaign finance reform and term limits would do wonders for issues across the board. But for now, "corporations are people, my friend"

To be fair from a legal standpoint I think the Supreme Court made the right decision. The problem is that the Constitution is an old document drafted by men in a different world, with different values. But we have all been brainwashed since birth to worship it as if it was the Bible.
 
I think ya'll are overrating how much you will actually be paying back at one time. Its not like just because you are still paying back loans that you are still poor.

I know a Podiatrist who does very very well and he is in his mid 50's and just paid back his loans. And its not like he just started living a good life.

I don't disagree with the point you're making, but most of the physicians of old had much more favorable interest rates. Low enough that investing the money instead of paying back loans made sense financially. Today, it is best to pay those suckers back as quickly as you feel comfortable.
 
We were so close in 2008. But alas, an unprecedented THREE Pinocchios!

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/06/obama_reneges_on_public_financ.html

Yea I think this is a huge thing that would have truly brought "hope and change" to Washington culture. Obama's presidency has definitely delivered change in a number of areas, but Washington culture and faith in democracy are not among them.

Campaign finance reform is something both parties have stated they are open to. But private fundraising is so lucrative that, honestly, the first noble politician to do things right would be out-campaigned and defeated without much effort. Prisoner's dilemma.
 
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To be fair from a legal standpoint I think the Supreme Court made the right decision. The problem is that the Constitution is an old document drafted by men in a different world, with different values. But we have all been brainwashed since birth to worship it as if it was the Bible.

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Who here is actually going to have close to 600k in loans? I'm going to paying 18k a year for tuition. Maybe 10 k a year for living. So about 120k plus the interest. You gotta be living in New York or la and going to like USC or an expensive med school in New York to rack up that much. Is this 600k debt really common at a lot other schools.
 
Who here is actually going to have close to 600k in loans? I'm going to paying 18k a year for tuition. Maybe 10 k a year for living. So about 120k plus the interest. You gotta be living in New York or la and going to like USC or an expensive med school in New York to rack up that much. Is this 600k debt really common at a lot other schools.

I will. Good for you for getting into your 18k/year school. The one school I've been accepted to thus far is 52K/yr and the ones I'm waiting on aren't far off. There are plenty of us stuck between the choice of hideous debt or no MD. My state school only takes 1/3 of their interviewees, and I guess I wasn't in that third, and I'm sick of hearing "just go to your state school". Oh, and my mommy and daddy can't just loan me the money for living expenses, or pay them outright. In fact, I'm trying to help THEM out while I still have a job.
 
The good news is that the fact that you cant get blood from a stone means that it is all monopoly money at this point, which is the only reason things like IBR were introduced. Better to get 10% over 10/25 years than nothing. And if things truly go bad at least Physicians will have a skill that is valued in most of the world.

The amount forgiven under IBR will be treated as taxable income. The only way to avoid this is by working at a non-profit for 10 years. Let's say a doctor leaves medicine directly after med school, or maybe after residency, to work for a for-profit entity. His income tax owed for the year on which his loans are forgiven will be based on his usual income, minus any deductions, plus $200-300k for the loans to be forgiven.

Let's pretend he gets a good job and makes $87.85k/year. He will be taxed whatever he is normally taxed in addition to 28% of $95k and 33% of $5-105k. His income tax owed for that year will increase by $28-61k. The amount owed is likely much greater as I'm not factoring in accrued interest on $200-300k in loans at 7.9% interest (Grad PLUS rates.)

The IRS will get blood from a stone, too. The IRS failure to pay penalty is 0.5% of the owed tax for each month the tax is not paid in full. Want to ignore that? Your wages will be garnished or maybe they'll throw you in prison. :laugh:
 
I know a lot of do schools are 50k and USC is one of the most expensive for md also about 50 k. I didn't know so many md schools are also 50 k a yr. guess I've been living in my Texas bubble. Parents will certainly not be paying my tuition, loans all the way unfortunately.
 
The amount forgiven under IBR will be treated as taxable income. The only way to avoid this is by working at a non-profit for 10 years. Let's say a doctor leaves medicine directly after med school, or maybe after residency, to work for a for-profit entity. His income tax owed for the year on which his loans are forgiven will be based on his usual income, minus any deductions, plus $200-300k for the loans to be forgiven.

Let's pretend he gets a good job and makes $87.85k/year. He will be taxed whatever he is normally taxed in addition to 28% of $95k and 33% of $5-105k. His income tax owed for that year will increase by $28-61k. The amount owed is likely much greater as I'm not factoring in accrued interest on $200-300k in loans at 7.9% interest (Grad PLUS rates.)

The IRS will get blood from a stone, too. The IRS failure to pay penalty is 0.5% of the owed tax for each month the tax is not paid in full. Want to ignore that? Your wages will be garnished or maybe they'll throw you in prison. :laugh:

I can't help but notice that most of your posts on this forum are extremely negative, probably the most cynical of any premed I've seen. Is there a reason, after all of your ill-fated thoughts about the profession, as to why you still want to go to medical school? If you hate this path so much, why not just choose another career while the option is still available?
 
I can't help but notice that most of your posts on this forum are extremely negative, probably the most cynical of any premed I've seen. Is there a reason, after all of your ill-fated thoughts about the profession, as to why you still want to go to medical school? If you hate this path so much, why not just choose another career while the option is still available?

I don't hate medicine. I hate the admissions game and I hate schools that jack up tuition every year.
 
Im always a little shocked at how important money is to most premeds. I guess the benefit of growing up in a very modest home is that money isn't a big priority to me. Even if I make the same amount as my neighbor working straight out of college, I know I'll be happy with my job and happy with my life. As long as I have enough money for a home, food, and take care of my family, then I don't need to have a 500k salary, and I certainly dont think being a doctor entitles me to one.

Enjoy being poor by yourself. I'd prefer not to get robbed by the system while pretending to be a saint.
 
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Wat? The average yearly tuition is like 30,000. Add about 1,000 to 1,500 for health insurance, and then your daily expenses, and you can actually live on 10,000 a year. Thus, 40,000 a year*4=160,000. The unsubsidized stafford loans will grow at 6.8%, so it's about 170,000 when you graduate med school.

You make 40,000 in residency and if you live on the same 10,000 a year (yes, very feasible if you dont' spend money on cable tv, booze, smartphone, etc), you have 30,000 left. Pay ~12,000 so your loans don't grow on the initial 170,000 debt and you have 18,000 left. Invest 6,000 of it in your ROTH IRA and you have 12,000 left, which you can apply towards your loans or invest.

Now, if you have a private school college debt that was 160,000, then in most cases it was your choice to attend the school instead of a cheaper one.

You have a lot of choices, you can live in a 1,000 apartment/month place, lease a BMW 3 series car, spend 50 bucks each weekend on drinks, and buy a 2,500 MacBook Pro. It's your choice, but don't complain about the loans then.

Have fun living on 10K a year when you're 30. I mean seriously, paying $500/month for rent uses 6K a year. If you're living in a city with good enough public transportation to take into work, you're paying more than $500 a month for rent. If not, you have to drive to the hospital in a car which quickly eats through most of the rest of what's left. What are you eating for dinner, Ramen?

Also, I think you're forgetting about these little things called income taxes. Have fun watching Uncle Sam take 15% (I'm averaging haven't calculated the exact rate with all the marginal rates).
 
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Marry a sugar momma, duh lol.
But honestly, most of you will likely be married at some point during med school or residency, unless you marry a fellow student having a working spouse is huge difference maker. Also, full time military isn't the only option, national guard forgives loans. You are still deployable every1.5 years for 6 months boots on the ground, but you a at least choose where you live and can work civilian medicine the rest of the time. It's also illegal to be fired for deploying.


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A lot of people in this thread are making the "don't go into medicine for money" point. It's a valid one -- there are easier ways to become wealthy than pursuing medicine. Dedicating yourself to medicine if you aren't interested in it for the right reasons -- humanitarian, scientific, genuine interest in service, etc. -- will only ensure the misery of yourself and your future patients.

But you shouldn't casually dismiss concerns about the rising six-figure debt levels carried by many US medical school graduates. That's just irresponsible. Though money isn't everything, it's important -- as a physician, defaulting on a federal loan can effectively end your career by banning you from receiving Medicare and Medicaid reimbursements and including you in a publicly available list with providers who committed Medicare and Medicaid fraud.

You can love medicine for the right reasons and be still be concerned about debt, especially if you've only been accepted to expensive private schools. Really though, everybody should be concerned -- over the past 20 years median tuition and fees has increased by 165% in private schools and by 312% in public schools. It gets worse every year, and there's no clear justification for the regular increases. Coupled with stagnating (and decreasing) physician incomes, this is truly an unsustainable trend.
 
To be fair from a legal standpoint I think the Supreme Court made the right decision. The problem is that the Constitution is an old document drafted by men in a different world, with different values. But we have all been brainwashed since birth to worship it as if it was the Bible.

I very much disagree with this, ignoring the constitution is what has gotten us into the trouble we are in. Politicians use the constitution as a talking point, but none of them actually pay any attention to what it says.

The problem is our whole government/political system is full of one type of person. Politicians.
 
I very much disagree with this, ignoring the constitution is what has gotten us into the trouble we are in. Politicians use the constitution as a talking point, but none of them actually pay any attention to what it says.

The problem is our whole government/political system is full of one type of person. Politicians.

How has "ignoring the constitution gotten us into the trouble we are in"? What's the trouble we're in? How would adhering to the constitution have improved it? What specifically does the constitution say that politicians are ignoring? Why is your interpretation of the constitution more valid than others'?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/31/opinion/lets-give-up-on-the-constitution.html
 
Two things that people are trying to ignore, and one that no one has even mentioned:

1. PSLF. If you are working for a public institution, you can qualify. This allows your debt to be discharged after ten years. Extra special news: being an attending at a state-operated medical center counts.

2. If you don't qualify for PSLF, EVERYONE can use IBR, which stipulates that you pay 10% of your income per year for ten years towards your loans, and then the rest is forgiven. A few things here: as of now, there is a tax on that amount which is forgiven, which can be quite large.
a. There are currently proposals in legislature to eliminate this tax bomb.
b. If you are smart, you can put some extra income into savings during those ten years and be able to handle the tax bomb. You'll still have plenty of money leftover.
c. If you end up in a high-paying field (Spine Surgery) it'll actually cost less to pay off your loans than to do IBR.

Taking out loans to become a physician is not problematic, especially if you aren't taking out private loans. Everyone needs to calm down and remember that the system is designed so that, as physicians, you'll be able to live a nice lifestyle even with the debt you will build up. :)
 
Absolutely untrue. :laugh:

... it's definitely true. It is incredibly easier to earn more money over your lifetime in a finance career than in medicine. If you are you smart/personable enough to get into medical school, there's a very solid chance you can land a lucrative job at a bank and succeed.
 
Enjoy being poor by yourself. I'd prefer not to get robbed by the system while pretending to be a saint.

I agree. Money shouldn't be a primary motivation, but it certainly matters. This is why I think more premedical students should take 2-3 years in the real world before med school. Watch the stress money puts on life, marriage etc. I grew up with nothing - I'm appreciative of my family, but don't tell me being poor doesn't suck.

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... it's definitely true. It is incredibly easier to earn more money over your lifetime in a finance career than in medicine. If you are you smart/personable enough to get into medical school, there's a very solid chance you can land a lucrative job at a bank and succeed.

You have no idea what you're talking about. I've argued this point dozens of times before and I've had former i-bankers agree with me: unless you have a degree from HPY/MIT/Stanford or unless you have an amazing connection, you're not getting the type of finance job that can pay you $175k/year by the time you're 32 -- you know, the kinds of salaries a physician can earn in the lowest paying and least competitive specialties.
 
You have no idea what you're talking about. I've argued this point dozens of times before and I've had former i-bankers agree with me: unless you have a degree from HPY/MIT/Stanford or unless you have an amazing connection, you're not getting the type of finance job that can pay you $175k/year by the time you're 32 -- you know, the kinds of salaries a physician can earn in the lowest paying and least competitive specialties.

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