600k in loans is the new reality for many students

[UCSFx2017]

https://services.aamc.org/30/first/home/organizer#.UUm4JBwqbdc

This is UPenn dental school's cost-of-attendance. The first schedule is for a UPenn dentist with an exaggerated salary after a 6-year OMFS residency. This calculator is obviously more applicable to medical school repayment schedules.

The second schedule is for a Penn dentist using IBR for the first three years at a salary of $95K and paying the remaining amount within seven years at a salary of $120K.

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[sazerac]

These plans are unrealistic. Nobody would be expected to pay off their loan in a total of 10 years including residency, especially if they are making the bare minimum IBR sized payments during residency.

Look at your second plan... that's a monthly payment of 63% of your monthly gross salary. After loans and taxes there would literally be no money left to buy a piece of cardboard and a pen so you could beg for food at traffic intersections.

 

[KnuxNole]

This what I DID do for the first two years of med school. I actually lived on...9,000 or 9,500/year. FYI, our school insurance was 1,400/year and it was a great cadillac plan. For an individual to get comparable coverage, it would be about 2,500. I'm in a much cheaper place than CA, but still an average cost state. In CA, it is probably like 200 more per month for rent.

Rent: 400.
Utilities+internet:60
Food:150
Phone:40
Health Insurance:115
Total:765.
(I biked to school, it was a few miles away)

If you have a family, obviously, your expenses will be much higher. But your wife may be providing an additional income source.

If you make 40K as a resident, you will be paying tiny taxes. Standard deduction for 2013=6100
Personal exemption, etc.

And I eat a LOT and very well. You can have a 2,500 macbook pro, 500 dollar ipad, cable tv, 100 dollar/month phone plan, etc, etc but that is your CHOICE

What about money to spend to go to movies or out to eat with friends? Unless you have a separate "personal" expense you take into account. I don't mean a MacBook, but money to spend for other non-food stuff.

 

[galaxyx]

What about money to spend to go to movies or out to eat with friends? Unless you have a separate "personal" expense you take into account. I don't mean a MacBook, but money to spend for other non-food stuff.

If you're trying to live as cheaply as possible, you're probably not going to the movies or eating out? These are luxuries, not necessities.

 

[syoung]

https://services.aamc.org/30/first/home/organizer#.UUm4JBwqbdc

This is UPenn dental school's cost-of-attendance. The first schedule is for a UPenn dentist with an exaggerated salary after a 6-year OMFS residency. This calculator is obviously more applicable to medical school repayment schedules.

The second schedule is for a Penn dentist using IBR for the first three years at a salary of $95K and paying the remaining amount within seven years at a salary of $120K.

Thank you!

These plans are unrealistic. Nobody would be expected to pay off their loan in a total of 10 years including residency, especially if they are making the bare minimum IBR sized payments during residency.

Look at your second plan... that's a monthly payment of 63% of your monthly gross salary. After loans and taxes there would literally be no money left to buy a piece of cardboard and a pen so you could beg for food at traffic intersections.

That is pretty steep. I'm curious as well.

If you're trying to live as cheaply as possible, you're probably not going to the movies or eating out? These are luxuries, not necessities.

I wouldn't say luxuries, but I think a student needs to get out of studying/relax/do something else every once in a while. That budget does not take that into account at all.

 

[galaxyx]

I wouldn't say luxuries, but I think a student needs to get out of studying/relax/do something else every once in a while. That budget does not take that into account at all.

If you wouldn't say luxury, it probably has something to do with your parents' income keeping you from getting need based aid.

Besides, what ever happened to going to the park? Taking a walk in a historic district? Going for a bike ride? Watching movies on the internet you already pay for? Cooking dinner for friends? Reading a book? Going to a museum on the free day/evening?
Lots of budget conscious ways to unwind.

 

[KnuxNole]

If you're trying to live as cheaply as possible, you're probably not going to the movies or eating out? These are luxuries, not necessities.

A movie or a night out with friend isn't too bad when done once in a while. A movie ticket is only like 8 or 9 bucks . Unless they are eating at 5-star restaurants every weekend, a night out to eat with a few friends isn't that bad at all. I know that you can do tons of things with friends with little(or no!) money too.

Also, other things at the store to buy besides food. 150/month can probably cover that, but you never know. I dont intend to chastise the poster...it's more like "That looks interesting, and wondering how he/she accounts for these added stuff too!"

 

[galaxyx]

A movie or a night out with friend isn't THAT luxurious. A movie ticket is only like 8 or 9 bucks . Unless they are eating at 5-star restaurants every weekend, a night out to eat with a few friends isn't that bad at all. I know that you can do tons of things with friends with little(or no!) money too.

Also, other things at the store to buy besides food. 150/month can probably cover that, but you never know. I dont intend to chastise the poster...it's more like "That looks interesting, and wondering how he/she accounts for these added stuff too!"

I don't want to get into a debate on the relative scale of luxury. But you must live in a pretty low cost of living area if movies are only $8.
But my point is, these are things you don't actually need and many people happily go without.

 

[galaxyx]

I live in Chicago and I can see movies for six bucks.

Not everywhere has an old 2nd run theater. But also, completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the movies cost you $1 in Erie or $16 in Boston, you choose to spend money on a movie. It doesn't have to be part of your budget.

 

[prado]

lol. I loved how this thread transitioned from talking about $600k in loans to the cost of a movie ticket in your area.

 

[Norserafa]

Not everywhere has an old 2nd run theater. But also, completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the movies cost you $1 in Erie or $16 in Boston, you choose to spend money on a movie. It doesn't have to be part of your budget.

Bostonian check in. We have a theater that gets new releases that is $6 as long as you go before 6pm, including saturdays and sundays.

 

[PTPoeny]

I would just like to point out that the residency salary in the second calculation is 95k which is ridiculously high.

Also, where you live matters a lot. If you are willing to go to the middle of nowhere there are residencies that will give you (nice!) houses to live in. Where I went to undergrad I never paid more than $200 a month for rent. Yes, that was sharing with other people, but if I were single I would be happy to share the 4 bedroom 2 bathroom house I rented for two years in undergrad with one other person instead of the 4 of us that shared it in undergrad and rent would still only be $300. One thing that surprised me as I interviewed is that residency salaries vary from place to place and the higher salaries are not necessarily in the cities. At the places I interviewed I saw about 48k-56k for PGY-1 salaries during the current year with expectations to be the same or slightly higher next year.

 

[d12]

lol. I loved how this thread transitioned from talking about $600k in loans to the cost of a movie ticket in your area.

Gotta love SDN!

If you're fortunate enough to have options, go to the cheapest school you can in an area that you'll be happy. Live like the student that you are and don't add unnecessary debt. Add it as you need it, not before you need it. As a resident, continue to live within your means and live frugally the first few years as an attending. Take advantage of any loan forgiveness programs that may be available to you in the future (pointless to discuss now) and enjoy the fact that you are earning a living in a field you enjoy working in. Many of you have no idea how important that last part is.

Oh, and yes, the tuition is too damn high.

 

[UCSFx2017]

I would just like to point out that the residency salary in the second calculation is 95k which is ridiculously high.

Also, where you live matters a lot. If you are willing to go to the middle of nowhere there are residencies that will give you (nice!) houses to live in. Where I went to undergrad I never paid more than $200 a month for rent. Yes, that was sharing with other people, but if I were single I would be happy to share the 4 bedroom 2 bathroom house I rented for two years in undergrad with one other person instead of the 4 of us that shared it in undergrad and rent would still only be $300. One thing that surprised me as I interviewed is that residency salaries vary from place to place and the higher salaries are not necessarily in the cities. At the places I interviewed I saw about 48k-56k for PGY-1 salaries during the current year with expectations to be the same or slightly higher next year.

I used this calculator to estimate the repayment schedule for a dentist. I can't get rid of the minimum of 3-year residency function because this calculator was meant for medical students. 95K is a very decent and privileged starting salary for newly graduated dentists using IBR for the first 3-years out.

 

[notbobtrustme]

People here are vastly overestimating their tax burden. For a resident, if you have a kid + wife, you will be getting a rebate every year, not paying taxes. Just the standard deductions alone will put you in the 25-30k AGI territory.

For attendings, your overall tax burden (state + federal + local taxes) should be around 35% given proper financial planning.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I'll have zero debt out of med school, so don't care

 

[jw3600]

People here are vastly overestimating their tax burden. For a resident, if you have a kid + wife, you will be getting a rebate every year, not paying taxes. Just the standard deductions alone will put you in the 25-30k AGI territory.

For attendings, your overall tax burden (state + federal + local taxes) should be around 35% given proper financial planning.

It is hard to talk about taxes generally because it varies so much by state, but for example in California you can have two kids, a mortage, and student loans and still end up paying ~45% overall.

 

[deleted393595]

For attendings, your overall tax burden (state + federal + local taxes) should be around 35% given proper financial planning.

Move down to Texas, and you won't have to pay that pesky thing called state income tax.

 

[Spinach Dip]

https://services.aamc.org/30/first/home/organizer#.UUm4JBwqbdc

This is UPenn dental school's cost-of-attendance. The first schedule is for a UPenn dentist with an exaggerated salary after a 6-year OMFS residency. This calculator is obviously more applicable to medical school repayment schedules.

The second schedule is for a Penn dentist using IBR for the first three years at a salary of $95K and paying the remaining amount within seven years at a salary of $120K.

I don't know if I want to thank you for the info... or yell at you for scaring me.

 

[JacksonAvery]

You can eat very well (single) on 150/month. Buy on sale, fruits, veggies, cereal, etc. No Ramen here. You can always find deals for housing. I paid 400/month for rent close to school while classmates picked places that were *marginally* nicer for 900/month. Utilities were included, except for internet (20/month) and electricity (40/month) Choices you make...

I'm Asian, we're much more frugal (generally) than Americans.

So you rode your bike to the supermarket every week to buy your groceries as well?

It's much more expensive to maintain a vegan diet than a regular one, I've done it. Low speed internet, really? 400 a month can't get you a dorm room in many states. If you want to proclaim your advocacy for lowering student spending, then you must adhere to the guidelines of the most expensive states. Try to survive on $10k in New York City. No... try to survive on $20k in New York City.

 

[syoung]

So you rode your bike to the supermarket every week to buy your groceries as well?

It's much more expensive to maintain a vegan diet than a regular one, I've done it. Low speed internet, really? 400 a month can't get you a dorm room in many states. If you want to proclaim your advocacy for lowering student spending, then you must adhere to the guidelines of the most expensive states. Try to survive on $10k in New York City. No... try to survive on $20k in New York City.

His reply would be: that's your fault for picking NYC.

 

[45408]

If you're trying to live as cheaply as possible, you're probably not going to the movies or eating out? These are luxuries, not necessities.

There needs to be an SDN poverty meme, because these suggestions are just getting ridiculous. Going to a movie is a luxury if you're living in a third world country, not if you're in the richest country in the world. Is it a necessity? Of course not, but it's getting increasingly asinine to be arguing how everything above water, crusts of bread, and a fixed-gear bicycle to ride to the library to print out your homework assignments on the back of used paper is a luxury.

No, it's not. It depends on your personal situation--if you have a family and kids, yes, you will obviously have more debt accrued. However, you would have had to support your family if you hadn't gone to medicine anyways.

If you are attending a school that costs 30,000 a year for tuition and you are single, you should NOT have 500,000 of debt after 4 years.

Except for the part about my student loans having already accrued $50,000 in interest before I'm even halfway through residency, and I did go to a school that cost me about $30K/year, and I put almost nothing else on my loans (a few thousand for Step 1 and 2 and residency interviews). If I had gone into something without such a prohibitive entry cost, I wouldn't be losing money toward interest to the tune of $800/month or so.

A movie or a night out with friend isn't too bad when done once in a while. A movie ticket is only like 8 or 9 bucks . Unless they are eating at 5-star restaurants every weekend, a night out to eat with a few friends isn't that bad at all. I know that you can do tons of things with friends with little(or no!) money too.

Also, other things at the store to buy besides food. 150/month can probably cover that, but you never know. I dont intend to chastise the poster...it's more like "That looks interesting, and wondering how he/she accounts for these added stuff too!"

And for your spouse? and dinner? and the babysitter?

 

[galaxyx]

There needs to be an SDN poverty meme, because these suggestions are just getting ridiculous. Going to a movie is a luxury if you're living in a third world country, not if you're in the richest country in the world. Is it a necessity? Of course not, but it's getting increasingly asinine to be arguing how everything above water, crusts of bread, and a fixed-gear bicycle to ride to the library to print out your homework assignments on the back of used paper is a luxury.

From the OED, one of the definitions of luxury:
"In particularized sense: Something which conduces to enjoyment or comfort in addition to what are accounted the necessaries of life. Hence, in recent use, something which is desirable but not indispensable."

I didn't mean that it was akin to driving a Ferrari or wearing only Valentino.

But to dismiss someone's budget because it doesn't have movie money? Really? My statement to movies being a luxury was a reaction to that.

Do you think going to the movies is a right then? Better raise minimum wage so everyone can afford to take their family to the movies. I've spent time in wealthy socialist countries, it might not be a bad idea. Higher taxes and higher wages means more expensive goods and services, but it all balances out and everyone has a higher quality of life.

I just don't think that people understand that its normal to not have a lot of disposable income when you're young. It's normal for young families to be struggling to pay bills.
Yes, the American healthcare system is broken in so many places, including the amount of debt its physicians must accrue for their training and people should want to change that. But, not having movie money for a few years is not a hardship. Having to make choices between a coffee or a movie and not being able to have both is not a hardship.

 

[nvnme]

https://services.aamc.org/30/first/home/organizer#.UUm4JBwqbdc

This is UPenn dental school's cost-of-attendance. The first schedule is for a UPenn dentist with an exaggerated salary after a 6-year OMFS residency. This calculator is obviously more applicable to medical school repayment schedules.

The second schedule is for a Penn dentist using IBR for the first three years at a salary of $95K and paying the remaining amount within seven years at a salary of $120K.

Christ...

 

[45408]

From the OED, one of the definitions of luxury:
"In particularized sense: Something which conduces to enjoyment or comfort in addition to what are accounted the necessaries of life. Hence, in recent use, something which is desirable but not indispensable."

I didn't mean that it was akin to driving a Ferrari or wearing only Valentino.

But to dismiss someone's budget because it doesn't have movie money? Really? My statement to movies being a luxury was a reaction to that.

Do you think going to the movies is a right then? Better raise minimum wage so everyone can afford to take their family to the movies. I've spent time in wealthy socialist countries, it might not be a bad idea. Higher taxes and higher wages means more expensive goods and services, but it all balances out and everyone has a higher quality of life.

I just don't think that people understand that its normal to not have a lot of disposable income when you're young. It's normal for young families to be struggling to pay bills.
Yes, the American healthcare system is broken in so many places, including the amount of debt its physicians must accrue for their training and people should want to change that. But, not having movie money for a few years is not a hardship. Having to make choices between a coffee or a movie and not being able to have both is not a hardship.

If what you took away from that was that I think movie attendance is a right, then I don't have much else to add.

 

[yehhhboiii]

From the OED, one of the definitions of luxury:
"In particularized sense: Something which conduces to enjoyment or comfort in addition to what are accounted the necessaries of life. Hence, in recent use, something which is desirable but not indispensable."

I didn't mean that it was akin to driving a Ferrari or wearing only Valentino.

But to dismiss someone's budget because it doesn't have movie money? Really? My statement to movies being a luxury was a reaction to that.

Do you think going to the movies is a right then? Better raise minimum wage so everyone can afford to take their family to the movies. I've spent time in wealthy socialist countries, it might not be a bad idea. Higher taxes and higher wages means more expensive goods and services, but it all balances out and everyone has a higher quality of life.

I just don't think that people understand that its normal to not have a lot of disposable income when you're young. It's normal for young families to be struggling to pay bills.
Yes, the American healthcare system is broken in so many places, including the amount of debt its physicians must accrue for their training and people should want to change that. But, not having movie money for a few years is not a hardship. Having to make choices between a coffee or a movie and not being able to have both is not a hardship.

Actually it's not normal to not have such a lack of disposable income. The boomers had decent jobs with decent pay, even those that didn't attend college. People shouldn't have to be struggling to pay bills after going to college with two incomes. It's that people at the top are taking a big slice of the pie and screwing everyone else as they cut down unions and take away benefits without commensurate rise in income (the whole reason why employers started to offer health care benefits was that it was cheaper for them to do that rather than increase wages). And the reality is that as a physician, you'll probably be paying back your educational loans into your 40s especially since fellowship training is becoming more and more common. I don't think anyone would consider that to be young.

 

[KnuxNole]

I can definitely understand living frugally. I guess in my case, I didn't want to be in a position where I would be worried about money. I didn't want to take out the bare minimum for loans at first, because I didn't know how much money I expect to live on. Also, I didn't want money to be a major issue. Not to say I spend money left and right haha

Also, factoring being single. If I had a family, I think I'd be singing a different tune :/

 

[galaxyx]

If what you took away from that was that I think movie attendance is a right, then I don't have much else to add.

I was being sarcastic. Didn't translate well.

Actually it's not normal to not have such a lack of disposable income. The boomers had decent jobs with decent pay, even those that didn't attend college. People shouldn't have to be struggling to pay bills after going to college with two incomes. It's that people at the top are taking a big slice of the pie and screwing everyone else as they cut down unions and take away benefits without commensurate rise in income (the whole reason why employers started to offer health care benefits was that it was cheaper for them to do that rather than increase wages). And the reality is that as a physician, you'll probably be paying back your educational loans into your 40s especially since fellowship training is becoming more and more common. I don't think anyone would consider that to be young.

The incomes that blue collar baby boomers had in the 90s were definitely not the same as the incomes they started out with in the 70s when they were young. Wages and benefits did increase nicely over that time and the bottom completely fell out during the economy crash and with unions being forced out. But that's kinda my point, none of this is UNIQUE to medicine.
As far as loans go, still paying back your loans in your 40s =/= struggling. It's less than ideal, but with $300,000 in loans at graduation, with $200,000 salary after a 4 year residency, you can live like you have a $100k/year pretax salary and pay back your loans in 12 years. Now $100k/year should allow one to have a pretty good lifestyle and take care of a family. Even if you look at all the calculations like "teachers earn more than doctors" and "UPS drivers earn more than doctors" by 10 years out its pretty much a wash.

 

[Tommyguns89]

Actually it's not normal to not have such a lack of disposable income. The boomers had decent jobs with decent pay, even those that didn't attend college. People shouldn't have to be struggling to pay bills after going to college with two incomes. It's that people at the top are taking a big slice of the pie and screwing everyone else as they cut down unions and take away benefits without commensurate rise in income (the whole reason why employers started to offer health care benefits was that it was cheaper for them to do that rather than increase wages). And the reality is that as a physician, you'll probably be paying back your educational loans into your 40s especially since fellowship training is becoming more and more common. I don't think anyone would consider that to be young.

This is the problem with this forum, you are comparing yourselves to Boomers. Those times are gone for EVERY line of work. Its the same thing with everything from Medicine to Law to Blue collar work. If you compared the lives of physicians today to the lives of other young professionals today you would see that physicians are still at the top or close to the top IF you are interested in the work. FTR the same is true in law(I left law school to peruse this) A lot of the bitching by law students/graduates is a result of comparing themselves to Boomers. Will they get high paying firm jobs right out of school? No. If they get a job at a smaller firm will they learn enough to open their own shop and get clients? yes. Will it be worth it? Yes but only if you like the work.

The truth is that the Boomers had one of the best sets of circumstances over human history. It is unrealistic to compare ourselves to that.

 

[yehhhboiii]

Why is it unrealistic? Has the economy shrunk since then? Are there fewer dollars in circulation? Are we less educated than they were? Or are we letting people screw us over with unpaid and underpaid work?

 

[Tommyguns89]

Why is it unrealistic? Has the economy shrunk since then? Are there fewer dollars in circulation? Are we less educated than they were? Or are we letting people screw us over with unpaid and underpaid work?

It is less realistic because we live in a global economy where our population is competing against people willing to work for a lot less money. This drives real inflation adjusted wages down.

You may say doctors are immune to this. And you are correct that they arent directly effected. However their pay is only going to be what the rest of the population can pay, either through their salaries/private insurance or through their taxes.

In fact a major reason that medicine has lasted at a level closer to the one Boomers enjoyed longer than law is because the government has turned dirt poor people into an income source. There is a huge unmet demand for legal services. The problem is that those people are unable to pay a lawyer enough so he would make a profit after expenses and there isnt a real legal version of medicare. And the reason that Medicine is trending down in terms of pay is because the government is becoming less willing to pay.


On the other side of the equation is debt. This is a result of everybody having access to education through loans. Institutions can raise tuition because there is virtually no limit to the loans that can be taken out. So the question is do we remove the student loan mechanism and cut off higher education from people who dont come from affluent families who would be able to pay even a greatly reduced tuition? The only other option would be for the government to control tuition prices which would be very hard to implement.

 

[sazerac]

(the whole reason why employers started to offer health care benefits was that it was cheaper for them to do that rather than increase wages)

Lol no. The reason was because the wage controls during world war 2 made it ILLEGAL to increase wages. The tax benefits to employers made it an attractive benefit to maintain, but taxes were most certainly not why the recent and historically anomalous concept of employer sponsored health insurance phenomenon was started.

 

[yehhhboiii]

Whoops my mistake

 

[syoung]

Why would it be hard ato implement a tuition ceiling? I think that would be fair...

 

[Tommyguns89]

Why would it be hard ato implement a tuition ceiling? I think that would be fair...

Aside from political realities? There are some logistical issues? What will the ceiling be? How will it account for cost of living differences? More troubling is the fact that it is the administrative class that soaks up most of the money and they arent going to willingly take a pay cut.

But it would never get that far anyway as it is in strong opposition to conservative/libertarian economics. But even if it somehow was able to pass during a time of Democratic control of the White House and Congress, it would never materialize because of the logistical problems and the higher education lobby.

 

[syoung]

I think we can fairly say that 57k for tuition is a bit extreme compared to 20-30k. I will say, though, that most of it is NOT used for administrative purposes. If you look at how the average med school is funded, about 3% comes from tuition... based on an AMSA report in 2011 (?).

Plus this wouldn't affect COL.

 

[galaxyx]

As of now, the cost of medical school is still a good investment in the long run and Doctors aren't defaulting on their loans en masse so there's no impetus for a tuition cap. Even the top private schools that want to make medical school affordable to everyone have unit loans that total $100k-$120k over four years because that's what they have calculated to be a reasonable amount of debt for a physician to start out with.

When we start getting significant #s of MDs with $600k in debt and unable to pay it back, you might see changes take place.

 

[deleted530324]

Half-million in debt is crazy, but even a quarter-million in debt feels absurd. There has to be some way to make healthcare education more accessible to qualified folks. It would be nice to see some statistics on where your tuition goes. Anyway, these two articles are perfect for this thread:

"Dear lawmakers: This is what it's like to be a doctor today"
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2013/03/dear-lawmakers-doctor-today.html


"The Deceptive Income of Physicians"
http://benbrownmd.wordpress.com/

Excerpt:

"Time spent training, student loan debt and the U.S. tax code makes the income of physicians deceiving. A board certified internal medicine physician who is married with 2 children, living in California and earning the median internist annual salary of $205,441 will be left with $140,939 after income taxes and $106,571 after student loan payments.7 This is assuming a federal Income tax rate of 28%, California state income tax rate of 6.6%, Social Security tax rate of 6.2% and Medicare tax rate of 1.45%. You can go to www.paycheckcity.com to get an idea of what one's net pay would be for different incomes, states of residence, marital status, number of children, etc. Paying off a debt of $369,425 over 20 years at a 7% APR will require annual payments of $34,368. Those student loan payments will continue to consume about $34,000 of their net income for 20 years until they are finally paid off. What started off as $300,527 in student loan debt will end up costing $687,360. This debt that consumes one-fourth of their net income for 20 years wasn't accrued because they bought a house they couldn't afford – it is because they chose to become a physician."

 

[UCSFx2017]

Half-million in debt is crazy, but even a quarter-million in debt feels absurd. There has to be some way to make healthcare education more accessible to qualified folks. It would be nice to see some statistics on where your tuition goes. Anyway, these two articles are perfect for this thread:

"Dear lawmakers: This is what it's like to be a doctor today"
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2013/03/dear-lawmakers-doctor-today.html


"The Deceptive Income of Physicians"
http://benbrownmd.wordpress.com/

Excerpt:

"Time spent training, student loan debt and the U.S. tax code makes the income of physicians deceiving. A board certified internal medicine physician who is married with 2 children, living in California and earning the median internist annual salary of $205,441 will be left with $140,939 after income taxes and $106,571 after student loan payments.7 This is assuming a federal Income tax rate of 28%, California state income tax rate of 6.6%, Social Security tax rate of 6.2% and Medicare tax rate of 1.45%. You can go to www.paycheckcity.com to get an idea of what one's net pay would be for different incomes, states of residence, marital status, number of children, etc. Paying off a debt of $369,425 over 20 years at a 7% APR will require annual payments of $34,368. Those student loan payments will continue to consume about $34,000 of their net income for 20 years until they are finally paid off. What started off as $300,527 in student loan debt will end up costing $687,360. This debt that consumes one-fourth of their net income for 20 years wasn't accrued because they bought a house they couldn't afford – it is because they chose to become a physician."

http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Homepage/About/Committees/StudentLife/TuitionFAQ.aspx

Surprisingly allopathic medical schools derive a very small percentage (<10%) of their revenue from tuition.

 

[deleted530324]

Just take out the loans and move to another country to practice.

So, after the MCAT next week, do I start learning French or Chinese? Do you think I can put Rosetta Stone on my student loans, or will the government grow suspicious?

UCSF's article was interesting:

However, it is interesting to note that overall medical school revenues have been increasing over the past decade. This means that although tuition and fees may account for around 3% of revenues on average from year to year, the overall increases in revenues indicate that tuition is increasing at a much higher rate since the 3% is part of a larger overall revenue stream.

It got me thinking. How much does the government spend to train one soldier/sailor/marine/airman? I tried to google it but only got some sketchy numbers. A 10 year old article from NBC ( http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3072945/#.UU9LHBzvvb8 ) said training a new Marine was about 44K, not including benefits to healthcare or GI Bill related tuition. If you figure a Marine's contract lasts about 4 years with a $20K/year salary the cost to the government for the Marine is certainly comparable to in-state tuition cost to a medical student. One source ( http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a265173.pdf ) from 1993 said it costs the army about $140K per year per soldier.

Anyway, I guess what I'm getting at is the government considers soldier essential personell. Imagine what it would be like if our all volunteer service turned into a self-financed one, where soldiers had to buy their own body armor, pay for their own training, etc.

Kind of a pointless thought exercise, since I imagine many of us aren't interested in military service, but it was a nice distraction from studying for me.

 

[notbobtrustme]

"The Deceptive Income of Physicians"
http://benbrownmd.wordpress.com/

This article has been debunked numerous times here. It makes unrealistic assumptions and carries those assumptions to their full-****** conclusion.

 

[deleted530324]

Did a search and found a bunch of threads. Thanks.

 

[deleted393595]

Quick Question: Why do people still have to pay tuition during their MS3 and MS4 years when they're essentially doing work for free for the hospital?

 

[KnuxNole]

Quick Question: Why do people still have to pay tuition during their MS3 and MS4 years when they're essentially doing work for free for the hospital?

Because you're paying to learn in the clinical setting. I would love to get a paycheck for barely doing much in MS4 though, but sadly that's not the case.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Quick Question: Why do people still have to pay tuition during their MS3 and MS4 years when they're essentially doing work for free for the hospital?

I'm guessing it's because it requires more money to train M3s/M4s than they actually generate for the hospital.

Or they just want to guoge us.

 

[thesauce]

I'm guessing it's because it requires more money to train M3s/M4s than they actually generate for the hospital.

Or they just want to guoge us.

Medical students generate exactly zero dollars for the hospital. They can't order tests, procedures, or bill for their services.

 

[thesauce]

Quick Question: Why do people still have to pay tuition during their MS3 and MS4 years when they're essentially doing work for free for the hospital?

Medical students triple the work of their attending. It wouldn't make sense to pay them.

 

[HuskerMed1816]

So while I didn't take the time to read through this thread, I thought I would share some calculations I had laying around from previous thought about student loan debt.

For the calculations in the attachment:
I have just under 15k of loans from undergraduate
Interest is calculated correctly at the fed. rate of 6.8%
COA is around 58k a year, all will be on loans
Residency is 5 years (gen surgery)
Payments are subtracted from totals after interest has been applied.
I would say a decent allowance for mod. COL; didn't include malpractice/health insurance.
Yellow bar is first full year as attending
At this rate, students loans are paid off about 10 years after residency.

Certainly there is a large amount of debt, but with my take-home pay being in the 30-38% tax brackets, I think it is safe to say the debt is manageable, though, I don't enjoy seeing the 40k+ payments year after year simply for an education..

 

[yehhhboiii]

Medical students triple the work of their attending. It wouldn't make sense to pay them.

Only triple? Time to kiss some feet.

 

[thesauce]

Only triple? Time to kiss some feet.

Yep