A Closer Look at Employment

[postbacpremed87]

Everyone (at least on this forum) talks about the employment woes of Pathologists. What if we take a closer look? Is the job market considerably better for a new graduate if: they are an AMG, did at least one desirable fellowship, went to a top 25 Pathology program (subjective), and are geographically flexible? Would you say that individuals that meet each of these probably get multiple offers??? 2-4 offers?

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[Sulfinator]

Well, first of all I would say that it is pretty much expected for new grads to do a fellowship. I know many people are doing two these days but, in my estimation, that is more likely to be related to issues of trying to 'time things right,' rather than because it gives them an edge employment-wise. As far as what makes something a 'desirable' fellowship, this often mostly depends on the situation (although some fellowships are more niche than others, to be sure). My anecdotal experience: I would arguably fit the criteria you state and did get multiple offers (2, with 2 more that would have likely materialized had I not taken one of the first two and, thus, exited the job market).


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[Sulfinator]

I would also add that people generally like me and wanted to help me out when the time came for me to get a job. This undoubtedly helped my prospects.


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[postbacpremed87]

I would also add that people generally like me and wanted to help me out when the time came for me to get a job. This undoubtedly helped my prospects.


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I often wonder how much these qualities help with the job search : "likeability" "not being weird or socially awkward"

 

[mlw03]

Everyone (at least on this forum) talks about the employment woes of Pathologists. What if we take a closer look? Is the job market considerably better for a new graduate if: they are an AMG, did at least one desirable fellowship, went to a top 25 Pathology program (subjective), and are geographically flexible? Would you say that individuals that meet each of these probably get multiple offers??? 2-4 offers?

I think you're selectively picking how you're presenting this. There is a range of views on here, from the doom and gloom you state, to the other extreme presented by Dr. Remick, to the middle ground that myself and yaah seem to espouse. By middle ground I mean the job market may not be 'perfect' but it's by no means as bad as some claim, particularly for 'solid' candidates. I think the criteria you list, along with the socially normal intangible, defines a solid candidate, and I have yet to know someone personally like that who was unable to find employment. I will also add that within my own niche of forensic path, that certainly is true, with the most important being (in this order I think) socially normal/plays nicely with colleagues in the sandbox, excellent communicator in written and spoken English (ou français au Québec), and did their fellowship at a respected place.

 

[Unty]

Dude, FYI, a few of my friends failed the boards at least once (eventually passed) and still got jobs. Another person failed his fellowship board and still got a job.

 

[postbacpremed87]

Dude, FYI, a few of my friends failed the boards at least once (eventually passed) and still got jobs. Another person failed his fellowship board and still got a job.

If that's the case, then it cannot be that bad??? Why are there so many differing opinions? It's frustrating for a 3rd year medical student seriously looking at Pathology. I have to make a decision by next summer whether I want to do this for the next 30+ years. I'm all in except for hesitations about employment. Maybe it'll take someone like LAdoc saying I can get a decent job if I meet all of those metrics above. Haha.

 

[mlw03]

If you're making major life decisions based primarily on information gleaned from internet forums, even ones supposedly frequently by physicians, you have bigger issues.

 

[postbacpremed87]

If you're making major life decisions based primarily on information gleaned from internet forums, even ones supposedly frequently by physicians, you have bigger issues.

N does not equal 1 or 2 or 3 or 4. I have a family. I cannot go without a job and that is why I am vetting this process. I've shadowed a lot and the attendings there told me I would need 2 fellowships. I also hear people succeeding with one. I'm taking all the information I can get, even on SDN.

 

[mlw03]

That's fine. Nothing wrong with getting as much info as you can. But, and this translates to being a good pathologist, you have to consider the quality of the information you are considering. Internet forum advice << advice from people you know (and know you) and trust/respect. Even doing 2 fellowships, you're working by pgy7, which is about the same as many other specialties or subspecialties. I've never heard of a quality pathologist who has geographic flexibility being completely unable to find a job, and I would venture that most of us at the attending level would say similarly.

N does not equal 1 or 2 or 3 or 4. I have a family. I cannot go without a job and that is why I am vetting this process. I've shadowed a lot and the attendings there told me I would need 2 fellowships. I also hear people succeeding with one. I'm taking all the information I can get, even on SDN.

 

[Unty]

If you are seriously passionate about pathology, then do it. Radiology (I believe is your other choice) although simlar to path in that both are visual fields, etc are also very different and both require a certain level of interest. Do you like working up biopsies (ordering stains, etc) and resection specimens? Do you like looking at cool tumors as opposed to MRIs, CTs all day? I thought radiology was cool as well, but in the end path was a better fit for me because I enjoyed making diagnoses on biopsies, working up interesting tumors with stains. Other factors also played a role.

Dont listen to the people on this forum. You can get a job if you are competent with no personality issues (difficult to work with, etc). Be ready to do at least a year of fellowship which is no biggie IMO and learn to network.

Also note that people who complain about the job market on this forum all have jobs.

Id also recommend that you go to the best program that you can get into that you can see yourself in for four years or more (if you plan to do fellowship there). Id also recommend you to go to a place that has many fellowships. Not only will you be able to see more but it can be an advantage if faculty like you and you want a particular fellowship.

 

[icpshootyz]

Id also recommend that you go to the best program that you can get into that you can see yourself in for four years or more (if you plan to do fellowship there). Id also recommend you to go to a place that has many fellowships. Not only will you be able to see more but it can be an advantage if faculty like you and you want a particular fellowship.

THIS. If you're worried in the least about finding a job after residency, go to the best name program you can get into that offers the most fellowships (or at least the ones you would want to do). Big names stay with you forever and open doors that would otherwise be closed.

 

[yaah]

Everyone (at least on this forum) talks about the employment woes of Pathologists. What if we take a closer look? Is the job market considerably better for a new graduate if: they are an AMG, did at least one desirable fellowship, went to a top 25 Pathology program (subjective), and are geographically flexible? Would you say that individuals that meet each of these probably get multiple offers??? 2-4 offers?

"multiple offers" kind of depends on your strategy. I had two job offers (this was 2008), but I also stopped looking once I got my second because that was the job I really wanted. Would have been happy with #1 but probably would have kept looking in a selective fashion just to see.

But yes, it greatly helps your job seeking status if you have the qualities you listed, plus some others (most particularly that you are an efficient person, communicate well, and have good references). Looking at the other side of the spectrum, if our group wanted to hire a warm body, it would be easy. If we wanted to hire a competent pathologist who would do an adequate job and be respected at our hospital, it would also be fairly easy. But to hire someone with the specific skills and training you want, and excellent communication/time management/etc skills, it becomes harder. The main disconnect is that the best jobs don't turn over very often (the best groups don't hire someone new every year), and when they do there are usually specific skills in mind (our most recent job search involves hematopathology + some type of surg path training + management ability and/or desire). Things like communication skills and being a good fit for the group are givens. We have not interviewed candidates because they have mediocre references, or because someone in our group knows the person and knows of issues, because they communicate poorly or don't sound confident, and other related things.

 

[Tissue issue]

"multiple offers" kind of depends on your strategy. I had two job offers (this was 2008), but I also stopped looking once I got my second because that was the job I really wanted. Would have been happy with #1 but probably would have kept looking in a selective fashion just to see.

But yes, it greatly helps your job seeking status if you have the qualities you listed, plus some others (most particularly that you are an efficient person, communicate well, and have good references). Looking at the other side of the spectrum, if our group wanted to hire a warm body, it would be easy. If we wanted to hire a competent pathologist who would do an adequate job and be respected at our hospital, it would also be fairly easy. But to hire someone with the specific skills and training you want, and excellent communication/time management/etc skills, it becomes harder. The main disconnect is that the best jobs don't turn over very often (the best groups don't hire someone new every year), and when they do there are usually specific skills in mind (our most recent job search involves hematopathology + some type of surg path training + management ability and/or desire). Things like communication skills and being a good fit for the group are givens. We have not interviewed candidates because they have mediocre references, or because someone in our group knows the person and knows of issues, because they communicate poorly or don't sound confident, and other related things.

Curious what you mean by "some type of surg path training"

 

[icpshootyz]

Curious what you mean by "some type of surg path training"

My guess would be a non-boarded specialty like breast, GI, GYN, GU, etc.

 

[Tissue issue]

My guess would be a non-boarded specialty like breast, GI, GYN, GU, etc.

That would mean the "desirable candidate" would need two fellowships.

 

[turtle1966]

....By middle ground I mean the job market may not be 'perfect' but it's by no means as bad as some claim, particularly for 'solid' candidates. ...

Pathology, at present and as long as I can remember, appears to be unique in that a candidate has to be "at least reasonably solid" in order to find a job. I do not believe that most AMG went to medical school expecting this.

By personal advice would be "Unless compelled by a Passion or circumstantial Compulsion, avoid Pathology. You will be happier and safer, during residency and thereafter.

 

[yaah]

That would mean the "desirable candidate" would need two fellowships.

Not necessarily. For the majority of residents this may be true, however, since many don't seem to be able to get adequate surg path training during training. Plus, the fellowship year also gives people confidence that residency often doesn't. But it could also be someone who didn't do a fellowship but had signout experience.

 

[yaah]

Pathology, at present and as long as I can remember, appears to be unique in that a candidate has to be "at least reasonably solid" in order to find a job. I do not believe that most AMG went to medical school expecting this.

By personal advice would be "Unless compelled by a Passion or circumstantial Compulsion, avoid Pathology. You will be happier and safer, during residency and thereafter.

I'm so glad that there are so many people on here who strive to be less than adequate and still think they should demand whatever career they want.

Of course you should not go into pathology unless you are compelled by passion or talent. One should never pick a career that they don't really like or because of some perceived benefit of paycheck or lifestyle (unless that job is really low stress or easy).

 

[nr-xxx]

it depends on what you want and what you,offer. To let you know how bad it was just a few years ago 9 about 2014) I was job hunting and I used to get solicitations both by email and also paper copy resumes about people looking for work. One man--and my heart went out to him-- was job hunting. he had a family and he was board certified with experience -- HE HAD TO SUPPORT HIMSELF DOING BOSLEY HAIR TRANSPLANTS. he could not get a job. so some have some ease getting a job but not everyone. also it depends what you want and what you will accept. in the old days join a group meant full equity or partnership in 2- 4years. now a days partnership may be not be something everyone gets. some are willing to work as a glorified "senior fellow" and not get a full assistant professor wage ( this is especially true of female residents, who have a spouse as a breadwinner) others will accept working at a group and never getting full partnership ( this is especially true of foreign medical grads) so it depends upon what you want and what you will accept. overall I would say it is not so good as other specialties where you have 10 job offers waiting and you pick the best. in pathology you take what you can get and it may not be all that good. if you have something working against you-like politics it may be impossible. also to avoid: if you see a group where they have had 9 new assistants in the past 10 years, then do not think you will be the 10th that stays on- it is revolving door and odds are that you will not last more than 10 months despite the allure of partnership and making $400K it is a trap. forget it. there is one outfit in Dallas, TX ( I will not mention names) that is notorious for this . even with a prime skill like GI path, I have seen many go to the slaughter only to write to me and see if I had something. so look out. if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

 

[Sulfinator]

Good grief (said Charlie Brown style)


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[W19]

Is there a possibility for the employment outlook to change in the next few years? Why the path job market is so saturated when there are less than 600 pathology positions in the match?

 

[Thrombus]

Is there a possibility for the employment outlook to change in the next few years? Why the path job market is so saturated when there are less than 600 pathology positions in the match?

Because we need about 60 a year.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

it depends on what you want and what you,offer. To let you know how bad it was just a few years ago 9 about 2014) I was job hunting and I used to get solicitations both by email and also paper copy resumes about people looking for work. One man--and my heart went out to him-- was job hunting. he had a family and he was board certified with experience -- HE HAD TO SUPPORT HIMSELF DOING BOSLEY HAIR TRANSPLANTS. he could not get a job. so some have some ease getting a job but not everyone. also it depends what you want and what you will accept. in the old days join a group meant full equity or partnership in 2- 4years. now a days partnership may be not be something everyone gets. some are willing to work as a glorified "senior fellow" and not get a full assistant professor wage ( this is especially true of female residents, who have a spouse as a breadwinner) others will accept working at a group and never getting full partnership ( this is especially true of foreign medical grads) so it depends upon what you want and what you will accept. overall I would say it is not so good as other specialties where you have 10 job offers waiting and you pick the best. in pathology you take what you can get and it may not be all that good. if you have something working against you-like politics it may be impossible. also to avoid: if you see a group where they have had 9 new assistants in the past 10 years, then do not think you will be the 10th that stays on- it is revolving door and odds are that you will not last more than 10 months despite the allure of partnership and making $400K it is a trap. forget it. there is one outfit in Dallas, TX ( I will not mention names) that is notorious for this . even with a prime skill like GI path, I have seen many go to the slaughter only to write to me and see if I had something. so look out. if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Why do you have so many different usernames on this site all saying the same thing?

What exactly is wrong with doing Bosley hair transplants?