A Dilemma--I need some good advice from current residents and physicians

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elias514

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I'm a pre-med, and I'm on the horns of a dilemma. I need some good advice from current residents and physicians.

Here's some background info that is relevant: I lived in Kansas City for 20 years, but I currently reside in Austin, Texas, where I did my undergrad. I'm a very diligent student and a hard worker. I'm a strong test taker, especially standardized tests (I have consistently scored in the 97th-98th percentile on standardized tests). I love Austin, and ultimately I would like to come back here--or, at the very least, somewhere in the South--to practice medicine.

I interviewed at Baylor College of Medicine, the University of Michigan Medical School, the University of Kansas School of Medicine, and Dartmouth Medical School. I have been accepted to Kansas and Michigan; I've yet to hear anything from Baylor and Dartmouth.

After my interview at Michigan (my last interview), I was so excited about the school that I decided to write a letter of intent, in which I described Michigan as my first choice and promised to attend if accepted. I signed, dated, and sent the letter on November 3rd. That same day I was notified via e-mail of my acceptance at Michigan, so the letter was not a factor in the Committee's decision.

At the present time, I have no intention of becoming an academic physician, because I had a bad experience in a basic research lab at UT Austin. Thus, I strongly suspect that research just isn't for me. However, I have yet to positively rule out the option of becoming an academic physician, because I've yet to experience clinical research and my experience with basic science research is quite limited. Even so, I am strongly leaning towards a career as a clinician in private practice.

Here's my dilemma: Having just finished Iserson's Getting Into a Residency and reflected some more on my career goals, I'm having second thoughts about Michigan. One major issue is the price tag--$50,000/yr to attend UMich as a nonresident. Granted, some of the costs will be defrayed by grants and, perhaps, nominal scholarhips. However, I will most likely graduate with an enormous debt...well over $100,000. If I were to attend the University of Kansas School of Medicine, I would almost certainly graduate with far less debt; indeed, given my academic credentials, it's quite likely that I will receive a substantial scholarship offer from KU. Even without any scholarship from KU, I would still graduate with $80,000-90,000 less debt relative to Michigan.

Another issue is residency placement. I am aware of the fact that residency location (e.g., Chicago) positively correlates with the location of private practice. In other words, if you do your residency in Chicago, it is HIGHLY likely that you will ultimately practice medicine in or near Chicago. This correlation makes sense--after all, residents make a lot of connections during their residency and, therefore, it's easier to find a job near the location of their teaching hospital(s).

I also understand that a disproportionate number of medical students stay at the teaching hospitals associated with their medical school for residency, or they do their residencies at nearby cities. The latter makes sense, particularly in the case of highly competitive specialities that require audition electives, because it's easier to establish connections with residency directors and attendings at nearby hospitals.

Thus the dilemma is this: Do I attend a top ten school or the University of Kansas School of Medicine (or, perhaps, Baylor)? In the former case, I would have a great safety net in terms of residency placement (U of M has a number of excellent residency programs and there are several great residency programs in Detroit and other nearby cities) and, perhaps, a slight edge in residency placement at "name" programs. But, in the process, I would graduate with an enormous debt, thereby pushing me into a more lucrative specialty. Moreover, I would most likely end up practicing in the North, simply because the statistical probability of my doing a residency in or near Michigan would be quite high. In the latter case, I would graduate with far less debt. But, in the process, I would have to break my promise to attend Michigan, and I would have to graduate with stellar numbers to break out of the Midwest for residency and, ultimately, private practice.

What should I do? I really need some good feedback on this issue.

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Instead of making another rash decision (as I believe that the letter of intent was), I would sit on your acceptance until you hear from other schools. If you do get into other schools, pressure their and Michigan's financial aid offices for financial aid decisions before it is necessary to choose your med school. If Baylor is cheaper, I would say go there. If U Kansas is only a little cheaper, or if you don't want to go to U K, I would say go to U Mich. If you do end up going some where else, write a letter profusely apologizing but stating that you did not realize that their financial aid/burden would be so significantly different between the two schools and that you would love to go there but simply cannot afford to do so. Or you could say that you have new family issues. I don't think that it's really ethical to lie in these areas because your letter of intent could have potentially taken away a spot from someone who really intended to go there but for whatever reason just didn't send a letter of intent, but I'm certain that it happens to med schools all the time. I'd be careful about offending anybody at Michigan though, because academic medicine is a small world.
 
The difference in debt between KU and Michigan would be substantial--i.e., in the ballpark of $100,000. I know that I would be very happy at Michigan, because of Ann Arbor and the curriculum. It's just the aftermath of my medical education there. Is 4 yrs. of happiness worth $150,000 (which will translate into roughly a quarter of a million dollars after interest)?
 
Originally posted by elias514
But, in the process, I would graduate with an enormous debt, thereby pushing me into a more lucrative specialty.

If you are going to choose your speciality based on your projected debt rather than with your heart, then you're going into medicine for the wrong reason. Maybe you should consider another profession that will give you a better economic return (like an MBA). Sorry for being a little harsh, but you're missing the big picture here. If you want to be a doctor, you will go through hardships regardless of where you go and what you do. You will incur debt wherever you enroll. And you will always feel like the sacrifices you made do not justify the reward you receive in return. The thing that compensates for all that crap is satisfaction that you made a difference in a person's life and, in a sense, the narcissistic knowledge that you have a free pass to heaven (unless your ambition is to be a Capitalist with an M.D.).
 
Give me a break with the above post. You can drop the medical-student interview line and the sanctimonious garbage about how debt should not factor into your career decisions. When a 20 something year old is facing >150k in debt before having started earning a paycheck/purchasing a house/starting a family it is going to weigh upon the person. This does not mean he/she is going to make a poor doc/nor does it mean that they should choose a more lucrative career outside of medicine.
 
AS Ckent says, wait to do anything else.
Although academic medicine is small, I think there is a huge disconnect between admissions and residency directors! I get the impression that there is no communication between those two entities. That said, IF you get into a "better" place, gracefully withdraw with some sort of story as CKent described. Not a big deal, all schools know there will be huge flux until the first day of classes.

I personally think you can get into any specialty from any school. It is all about how hard you are willing to work. Go where you will be happiest and where it is cheapest.

Sounds like the OP has done excellent research (much like I did prior to school) with the exact same results. Too much knowledge without enough perspective (making fun of myself here!) You will be fine anywhere. Relax, you're on your way to fulfill your dreams.

Good luck,
 
I agree with orthoguy. Might be the first time. :D

You are very wise to consider all angles when deciding where to go to school or which specialty to enter. Financial factors do and should play a role in all of them. It is naive to say otherwise.

The overwhelmingly major factors concerning which specialty you will enter will be determined by of course your desires but also your academic record, regardless of where you go to school. You may feel pressure to chose a field based on how much money you may ultimately earn but chosing by this factor alone will most likely leave you dissatisfied. An ortho attending once told me that the most valuable commodity in his life is time, not money.

Most all fields of medicine will give you the earning power to comfortably pay off your medical school loans on a time table that you are comfortable with. If you can reduce that debt burden by attending a cheaper school, so much the better.

Medicine is a business no doubt. If you doubt me, just ask the insurance companies who will be reimbursing you. They are well aware of their bottom line at all times. As a physician, you should be too.
 
Christ, is the guy who wrote that post even a doctor yet? I agree with orthoguy and Edin that money does matter. Some specialties in certain areas make under 100K a year which makes it pretty damn hard to pay back 150K+ in debt especially when you may want to raise a family, buy a house, etc... Who says you have to be financially destitute or give up things other people are able to buy just because you want to be a doctor? Anyone who says different is probably independently wealthy (I hate when rich people say "Its only money"), naive, or a saint.
 
God, I'm such a ***** for writing that letter of intent. I can't believe I did that. Why the hell didn't I think about the freakin consequences? One helluva way to learn a lesson in life. That's for sure. I've always been a big advocate of keeping my options as unrestricted as possible. I have never wanted to reach a point in my life where I feel forced into a particular course of action. That's how I feel now. Oh, the price of naivete!
 
you do know that letters of intent are non-binding right? the only thing that's binding is you mailing in your tuition deposit...and even then, people back out all the time when they decide they want to go to a school off their wait list.

i agree wholeheartedly with many of the above posts -- it is important to factor your debt in to your school choice, and would be unwise to not consider it at all. med school is med school is med school, and as long as you're willing to put in the work, you'll end up wherever you decide to end up. if you wanna do umich, do umich...if you wanna do u of k, then do u of k... just make sure you know what you're gettin' in to (i.e. debt, support network, curriculum, clubs, extracurriculars, etc...) don't worry about the letter of intent -- that's meaningless.
 
I also gotta agree with Orthoguy (never thought I'd say that). The guys I know that graduated from Harvard often had $200,000+ debt burdens on leaving school, as Boston's not a cheap town to live in. It's a good thing Harvard can place their students in high-paying specialties, because they'd all be declaring bankruptcy otherwise.

I'd pretty much ignore the letter of intent you wrote. I think there's an equal chance that it was thrown away vs. placed in a file they could retrieve anyway. All medical schools have waiting lists for situations like this, so it's not like you're leaving them (or some other potential student) out in the lurch by changing your mind.

If it were me, I'd choose the less expensive school unless you were dead-set on academics. Even if you do decide you want to go into academics, there will be ample opportunity at either school. Say you suddenly decide you want to move somewhere expensive to live after residency (say, Los Angeles, or even Austin) and housing prices are insane. That's what I'm looking at right now. In the area I'm looking right now, there's no way in hell that a lender would approve me for a mortgage the size I need if I had a $250,000 student loan hanging over my head. You say you want to come back to Austin (and who of us Texas-Ex's doesn't?), and I can almost guarantee you that no matter how inflated the Austin real estate market looks now, it'll be worse by the time you finish residency. When I went to school in Austin, I rented a nice 2 bd/2 br apartment on the west side by the greenbelt with pool and tennis courts just south of Zilker Park for $385 / month. I shudder to think what those apartments cost now.
 
So my letter of intent is pretty much negligible? I certainly hope so. It wasn't even a factor in the Admissions Committee's decision, since I sent the letter AFTER I was notified of my acceptance to Michigan. Whom can I contact to make sure that the letter of intent is worthless--i.e., nonbinding? I don't want any negative fallout from this. If I opt to NOT attend Michigan in order to go to KU (or Baylor if I'm lucky), I don't want some administrator at Michigan calling KU or Baylor to inform them of my unethical behavior. That would be complete bullsh*t, without a doubt, but there are malicious individuals out there.
 
Originally posted by elias514
So my letter of intent is pretty much negligible? I certainly hope so. It wasn't even a factor in the Admissions Committee's decision, since I sent the letter AFTER I was notified of my acceptance to Michigan. Whom can I contact to make sure that the letter of intent is worthless--i.e., nonbinding? I don't want any negative fallout from this. If I opt to NOT attend Michigan in order to go to KU (or Baylor if I'm lucky), I don't want some administrator at Michigan calling KU or Baylor to inform them of my unethical behavior. That would be complete bullsh*t, without a doubt, but there are malicious individuals out there.

dude, definitely nonbinding. LOIs are meaningless. schools put zero stock into an LOI. anyway, this is from the UMich admissions website:

If Accepted
A student offered a position in the next entering class is required to accept or decline the offer within a specified period, by returning official forms to the Admissions Office. No enrollment deposit is required until May of the entering year. Accepted applicants are given financial aid information and forms in January, and a packet of housing, immunization, and other information in early May. Deferrals may be granted at the discretion of the Assistant Dean for Admissions. Individuals who have been given alternate status may be offered a spot in the class at any time there is a vacancy, until the first day of orientation in mid-August.

Matriculation into the Medical School occurs only after the student has satisfactorily completed all requirements for admission and has submitted an official copy of his/her final undergraduate transcript with degree posted.

(http://www.med.umich.edu/medschool/students/admissions.html#accepted)

have you returned official forms? if not, then you're fine.
 
As a fourth year medical student in the match process, I thought I'd throw in my two cents.

I'd suggest to you that while medical school debt is a great burden and it would indeed be greater by attending U of M as an out of state student, the reputation of the school you attend has great bearing on your appeal to residency programs in the future.

I went through the same kind of dilemma as you. Instead of attending CWRU, a private institution with a very high tuition and decent reputation, I ended up attending a state school without a good reputation for considerably less money.

I was told that medical school is medical school no matter where you go. And if you end up AOA, I believe this kind of statement is for the most part true. If you end up in the middle of the pack, a thing like school reputation may come into play.

Unless you are confident you will be an exemplary student or go into primary care...if mobility is important to you, then go to the school with the best reputation. That would be my suggestion to you. Medical school debt is something that becomes less overwhelming the further you go along in your career. Its a pain in the ass everyone has to deal with. Try to put your mind off it for a while, and try to see which program will offer the greatest opportunity and happiness in the future.
 
Bartholomew, you really hit the crux of my dilemma. I wish I could somehow magically predict my performance in medical school. If, in fact, I will graduate at or near the top of my class in medical school, then the cheapest route would certainly be the smart thing to do. But I have no idea how well I'll do as a med student. I was a top student as an undergraduate, but I doubt that means much for medical school, since almost everyone in med school is really smart and studious.

If I don't gain admission to Baylor, then I'm almost certain that I'll attend Michigan. The debt is going to suck big time...no question about that. But I'll figure out a way to pay it off. Since I plan on coming back to Austin, TX, to practice medicine, I reckon that I'll have a better shot at securing a residency in the South if I go to Michigan than the University of Kansas, just because UMich has more of a national reputation. But I could be mistaken in this assumption. God, it's such a tough decision.


At any rate, thanks for all of the advice, guys. I really appreciate it! You've helped me tremendously.
 
Go to the cheaper school!!!! Michigan is not going to give you any advantage over KU as far as obtaining a residency position. Their both good schools. The only advantage a school can give an applicant is connections that the faculty may have with your residency choices. KU may have more than Michigan just by chance. PLus, you would probably be more likely to be at the top of your class at KU than Michigan, which would stand out on your application. I'm sure the climate is better at KU also. Michigan is pretty freakin cold.
 
Yeah, the weather is definitely more temperate in Kansas. I lived in Kansas City for almost 20 years, and the winters there aren't that bad. I can only imagine how cold Michigan winters are.

What happens if I don't graduate at or near the top of my class at KU? I'm willing to bet that I won't be a top dog at KU or any medical school for that matter. Medical school is going to be really tough for me, especially 3rd year. I'm much better at synthesizing and organizing information, and critical thinking than I am at memorizing massive amounts of information. Even though I'm a diligent student and a very hard worker, there is no guarantee that I'll graduate with flying colors from KU. There are plenty of extremely bright students there who may be considerably more adept at rote memorization than I.

Given the fact that I don't want to settle down in the Midwest, is it a good idea for me to go to KU? I know that top graduates from KU can go anywhere they want. I'm not disputing that point. But the individuals in the middle of the pack, so to speak, at KU typically stay in Kansas or Missouri for residency and, consequently, end up practicing in these two states. I don't want to live in Kansas or Missouri for the rest of my life. I just don't want to do that. I've gotten my fill of Kansas and Missouri.

Of course, Michigan is even farther from the South, and I may put myself at an even greater disadvantage for residency placement in the South by attending UMich. But I highly doubt it. I suspect (though I may be completely wrong on this one) that faculty at UMich may have more connections throughout the nation, simply because the med school attracts faculty from all over the place. Contrast this fact with KU--the vast majority of KU faculty members were educated at KU med school and, in fact, did their residencies in the Midwest. So, in terms of connections in the midwest (especially Kansas and Missouri), KU has UMich beaten hands down. But on a national scale, I think Michigan may have an edge.

I agree with you on the price tag issue. It's difficult to justify spending an extra $100,000...REALLY difficult. It hurts to even think about that much debt. But physicians have such tremendous earning potential, in spite of the declining salaries. The average family doc still grosses around $120,000/yr after expenses. Internists gross around $160,000/yr. Right now I'm making $10,000/yr, and I'm happy. I can't even imagine making over 100,000, let alone the enormous incomes that specialists command.

I don't know. The more I think about it. The more I feel like I'll be able to manage an enormous debt. I'll find a way to pay it off. Maybe I'm a ***** for thinking this. Who knows.
 
U Mich probably has the edge is national rep, which may matter a variable amount depending on what specialty you choose. Do you have any idea what you'd like to go into? Also, I doubt that where you go to medical school has any effect on where you end up practicing independent of your residency placement. IOW, your residency placement is really the main geographical determinant in where you end up working.

The financial factors are huge unknowns, including the affordability of housing markets around your preferred cities. Dallas and Houston will never be obscenely expensive, but Austin's already headed that way, as you probably know. You have some idea of what you'll end up owing at each school, but none of us has a crystal ball when it comes to the interest rate. Since the recession of the mid-late 90's, we've had continually falling interest rates, which makes all our student loan payments cheaper and cheaper. That won't last forever, and will probably start heading upward mid-next year if the big name economists are to be believed.

Lots of things to consider...
 
I am currently a fourth year med student applying to EM residency. However if it makes you feel anybetter about your letter of intent, I sent out my letter, mailed in my deposit and even arranged housing at NYU before I got in off the wait list from another med school that I really wanted to go to because it was closer to home. I called and appologized and explained the situation and the school not only sent me back my deposit but they also wished me luck with my future career. This year I have gotten an interview at NYU for residency. The moral of the story is although you probably don't believe it, you are not the only person who has had a change of heart and I think that as long as you are honest and appologetic people are generally pretty understanding and don't think anyone will hold anything against you when residency applications come up. So don't feel bad-make your decision based on what is best for you...trust me you will regret it later if you don't.
Good luck.
 
Go to UMich. Do not underestimate the importance of medical school reputation in obtaining, at least, residency interviews. Do not let any one else tell you otherwise. The medical field is very prestige-sighted and, therefore, prestige matters on every step of the way. Yes, it is important to do well in our respective medical school/residency, but going to a highly regarded school will give you the edge. I am in the process of residency interviews and can assure you that many of my classmates which much less that stellar records are getting great interviews due to the "name" of my school. You will make the right decision because there is no wrong decision here. You beat the odds and were accepted to medical school. Good luck!
 
Listen, go to the cheapest med school humanly possible. You are *crazy* to spend an extra 100,000 on Umich.

When you see your med school loan payments cost more than your rent or mortgage you'll understand the reality of this.

The Umich name *might* help you if you decide to go into ACADEMICS. The Umich name will NOT help you get more money!!! maybe if you graduate as a resident here but certainly not a med. student.

otherwise, you'll have a great shot at any residency.

I'm a *resident* at Umich, if that matters.

Congrats!
 
I think that the confusing part of all of this is that *all* of the post have a valid point.

I would argue that while money certainly should be something you wiegh your decision with, it should not be a be all and end all. (I was a texas resident, applied to three ivy leagues in addition to the UT schools and Baylor. I ended up cancelling the ivy leagues before I intervied because I felt like I would get a great education in Texas and I didn't want to be tempted...) Money is an important concern.

But I think more importantly is where you think you will get the best education for you and where you will be happiest living. While medical school isn't the horror that many think, there are definately miserable parts to it. You don't want to add in hating were you live, or hating the school you are at.


A few key things to calm yourself with regarding loans: First- they are non inheritable loans, meaning that if you were to die, or become perm. disabled, your family does not have to cover them.
Two- economic hardship will defer your loans in residency.
Three- Although incomes for MD's is certainly not what it used to be, I have yet to meet a poor doctor (who was poor because of low salary or paying student loans..gambling, bad investing, drugs... thats another story....)

Regarding the academic issue... Yes, many do stay in their own institute. But many leave. I graduated in texas. I am in residency in NYC (by choice.... this was my first choice) I will fellow in NYC. And then I am going back to Tx. There is a fellow here doing the same thing. I see the gamut run. People staying where they have always been.. going academic, private... leaving.

And as UT-Austin doesn't really have a medical school, I would say that you haven't really experienced academic life as an MD. Perhaps as a researcher. But there is a whole world of clinical academics...

Feel free to PM me if you want to chat further.
 
I am going to have to agree with Ligament. When I was applying for med school I was accepted to the university of Maryland And Hopkins (both in Baltimore), but I went to UMD for the money and because it is a good school. Now that I am applying for residency in EM, I am especially glad that I went to UMD, because we have a better residency here with more big name people to write letters of rec. The moral of the story is that how a school's name will help you will depend on the field your going into. Your are going to get a very similiar education everywhere. You can't predict your future, but I would say go with the cheaper school in a location where you can stand to live for 4 years. After that you can live anywhere.

Pelivar
 
Pelivar

Hey, we have several UMD grads in our EM residency. :)

Is interviewing goign well for you?





As to your point, I agree, you can get a great education where ever you want. I have seen great docs come out of 'bad' schools, and terrible docs from 'great' schools.

income is definately important. It just shouldn't be the *only* factor.
 
Go to the least expensive school. Period.
The information you will learn will be identical, but remember, as all medical students do...you will use the "retrospectoscope" often and doubt your education. All will be ok. It will be fine and WILL NOT affect your placement in residency...why???BEcause there is VIRTUALLY ZERO LOGIC in residency placement. PD's make decisions based initially on numbers, then on personality and finally may round off lists based upon your ability to understand or laugh at a joke during interview!!
To worry about residency now is purely premature. You have very little idea of what may lay ahead of you.
Go and learn young man!! Study at the **** Library (as I did and I LOVED the name)...eat pizza at Minske's.
Michigan and Kansas are great schools, but trust me, DO NOT BASE RESIDENCY on your school. Pick the med school that fits your needs.
 
dr lard, if you read this, I PMed you.
 
I opted to go to a cheap state school. Got my number one choice of program for my number choice of specialty. Had more interviews than I knew what to do with. Got a perfectly adequate education, passed the boards with absolutely no difficulty. Put myself on par with everyone else in my highly competitive residency. Now have minimal debt. I've been involved in admissions to med school and to residency. School reputation has much less to do with the process than most people think.
 
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