A DO just told me that Carribean MD > DO for competitive residencies

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Bismillah

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Is this true?

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specifically for competitive residencies? only if the program itself will absolutely not accept DO applicants (which there are some). otherwise, i would say no based on the overall match rates of Caribbean students.
 
they told me they regret going the DO route and would've chosen the carribean MD if they could redo.

they wanted to go into one of the prestigious residencies and they did well on USMLE, got interviews for residency and said that Carribean MDs at these interviews had an advantage because of the MD bias...


Is this common place?
Is this true?


they told me DO is fine if you aren't competitive. If you're a competitive person, it's not right for you. lol
 
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they told me they regret going the DO route and would've chosen the carribean MD if they could redo.

they wanted to go into one of the prestigious residencies and they did well on USMLE, got interviews for residency and said that Carribean MDs at these interviews had an advantage because of the MD bias...


Is this common place?
Is this true?


they told me DO is fine if you aren't competitive. If you're a competitive person, it's not right for you. lol

a very dumb absolute for him/her to have made.
 
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A DO told you wrong. You'll never see 2 neurosurgeons, 2 ophthalmologists and 6 orthopedists matching from a carribean school like we saw with PCOM in 2013.

This doctor is a gibbon.
 
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Yea, that's not true. Certain programs may prefer carribean grads over DOs, but, in general, DOs do better in the match than carribean students.
 
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Yes, go Caribbean and you'll match ortho.
 
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Yea, that's not true. Certain programs may prefer carribean grads over DOs, but, in general, DOs do better in the match than carribean students.

Yeah and I bet the programs that prefer caribbean MDs over DOs are the better, more competitive programs. In that respect, you are worse off a DO. It sucks but it's life
 
Yeah and I bet the programs that prefer caribbean MDs over DOs are the better, more competitive programs. In that respect, you are worse off a DO. It sucks but it's life

The "better, more competitive" programs have no problem filling their spots with US seniors.
 
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You can check match rates at NRMP, I believe. Match rates for DO >> Carib grads, even in ACGME.

The exceptionally wise @gyngyn can elaborate better than I can.

That DO referred to by OP would now most likely be unemployed AND deeply in debt had s/he gone to a Carib diploma mill.




Is this true?
 
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The "better, more competitive" programs have no problem filling their spots with US seniors.

But that's a thing. If you do really really well as a carib MD, you're fine. You can match with no restrictions. If you do really really well as a DO, there are still programs that won't look at you.

So on average, yea DO will be a better bet. But if you think you can do very well and want to give yourself a shot at the competitive programs, Carib MD will probably be a better. But if you don't do well as a Carib MD, you are out of luck; as a DO, you're still fine.

So it comes down to what kind of person you are. Do you think you can do very well? Do you want to take that risk? If you want to, Carib MD offers better rewards
 
if nobody wants a perfect board score caribbean MD, it doesn't matter how much said caribbean MD thinks they can do, if they wanted to take the risk, etc.

if nobody wants you, you won't get brought on.
 
This particular DO was probably speaking to you from his perspective of when he went to DO school. maybe 5, 10, 15 years old? Things were different then and DO degree definely had more stigma associated with it and was not as accepted. I had a family friend go the carribbean route in 2000. He is very successful now. However, those going there now will have a harder time. So maybe put things into perspective according tot he present time.
 
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But that's a thing. If you do really really well as a carib MD, you're fine. You can match with no restrictions. If you do really really well as a DO, there are still programs that won't look at you.

So on average, yea DO will be a better bet. But if you think you can do very well and want to give yourself a shot at the competitive programs, Carib MD will probably be a better. But if you don't do well as a Carib MD, you are out of luck; as a DO, you're still fine.

So it comes down to what kind of person you are. Do you think you can do very well? Do you want to take that risk? If you want to, Carib MD offers better rewards
Bro, carribean grads basically never match into competitive residencies while DOs match at a significantly greater rate. Some programs don't look at DOs, true, but if you think they'll invite someone who got their degree from a condo complex some people call a medical school, you're fooling yourself.

Wth residencies closing their doors to IMGs, it's going to get even worse for carribean grads.
 
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But that's a thing. If you do really really well as a carib MD, you're fine. You can match with no restrictions. If you do really really well as a DO, there are still programs that won't look at you.

So on average, yea DO will be a better bet. But if you think you can do very well and want to give yourself a shot at the competitive programs, Carib MD will probably be a better. But if you don't do well as a Carib MD, you are out of luck; as a DO, you're still fine.

So it comes down to what kind of person you are. Do you think you can do very well? Do you want to take that risk? If you want to, Carib MD offers better rewards
Let's look at the plain-old-facts.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PD-Survey-Report-2014.pdf

*With less than a handful of exceptions, every speciality favors DO applicants- the % per speciality in a few cases is much greater for DO applicants (read the link for more info). Further, for the ones that do favor USIMGs the % of PDs that look at/rank either is nearly identical (save for 2: NeuroSurg-- enjoy that 40%, lol-- and ENT, at a whopping 37%) that it is ridiculous to even use it as a debatable point (Ex: Pathology, 93% of PDs will look at DOs vs 94% of PDs will look at USIMGs). Conversely, there are more competitive specialities in which the % of PDs that will interview/rank DOs vs. USIMGs favors DOs considerably (a la Rad Onc., Rads-Diag., Thor. Surg,, Vasc. Surg.).*

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2014.pdf

78% vs 53% NOT including the AOA match....

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf

So, if you're gunning for NSurg you sure you want to roll the nice of having a 240 step 1, 14! abstracts/presentations/ publications, 5 work experiences, 5 volunteer experiences (the mean values of independent applicants that matched)? If so, then lucky you, at that point only 40% of PDs will even look at your app. Again, since you are so lucky, then you MIGHT be one of the 17 independent applicants who matched. **The numbers/values are nearly identical for ENT-- the only other speciality which PD's considerably (again- 40% and 37%, of which only a combined 33 people matched total!!!) favor USIMG vs DO. **

Enjoy fun in the sun.
 
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But that's a thing. If you do really really well as a carib MD, you're fine. You can match with no restrictions. If you do really really well as a DO, there are still programs that won't look at you.

So on average, yea DO will be a better bet. But if you think you can do very well and want to give yourself a shot at the competitive programs, Carib MD will probably be a better. But if you don't do well as a Carib MD, you are out of luck; as a DO, you're still fine.

So it comes down to what kind of person you are. Do you think you can do very well? Do you want to take that risk? If you want to, Carib MD offers better rewards

Really? Do you have any literature or proof to back that extravagant claim? Please find me a US CITIZEN who went to a carib school who matched at a top tier residency program.

Those FMG's found in competitive residency programs are legitimate international students from a different country.
 
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they told me they regret going the DO route and would've chosen the carribean MD if they could redo.

they wanted to go into one of the prestigious residencies and they did well on USMLE, got interviews for residency and said that Carribean MDs at these interviews had an advantage because of the MD bias...


Is this common place?
Is this true?


they told me DO is fine if you aren't competitive. If you're a competitive person, it's not right for you. lol

OP you'll be MUCH better off using the resources from AAMC, NRMP, and AOA RMP and conducting your own research than seeking advice from pre-meds off SDN.
 
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For what it's worth OP, I work at a colorectal surgery clinic and one of our fellows is a DO.. Your future is what you make of it.
 
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they told me they regret going the DO route and would've chosen the carribean MD if they could redo.

they wanted to go into one of the prestigious residencies and they did well on USMLE, got interviews for residency and said that Carribean MDs at these interviews had an advantage because of the MD bias...


Is this common place?
Is this true?


they told me DO is fine if you aren't competitive. If you're a competitive person, it's not right for you. lol


Sounds like this doctor is bitter because the one specific program preferred IMGs over DOs.

There are, however, more residencies that won't look at IMGs than won't look at DOs.

Source: 2014 NMRP program director's survey, middle of page 7:
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PD-Survey-Report-2014.pdf

There are specialties that have more programs who won't look at DOs than who programs who won't look at IMGs. Internal medicine, for example. However, most DO schools have a >90% graduation rate. I don't think even the big 4 caribbean programs can claim anywhere close to a 90% graduation rate.
 
Let's look at the plain-old-facts.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PD-Survey-Report-2014.pdf

*With less than a handful of exceptions, every speciality favors DO applicants- the % per speciality in a few cases is much greater for DO applicants (read the link for more info). Further, the ones that do favor USIMG the % of PDs that look at/rank either is nearly identical (save for 2: NeuroSurg-- enjoy that 40%, lol-- and ENT, at a whopping 37%) that it is ridiculous to even use it as a debatable point (EX: Pathology, 93% of PDs will look at DOs vs 94% of PDs will look at USIMGs). Conversely, there are more competitive specialities in which the % of PDs that will interview/rank DOs vs USIMGs favors DOs considerably (a la Rad Onc., Rads-Diag., Thor. Surg,, Vasc. Surg.).

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2014.pdf

78% vs 53% NOT including the AOA match....

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf

So, if you're gunning for NSurg you sure you want to roll the nice of having a 240 step 1, 14! abstracts/presentations/ publications, 5 work experiences, 5 volunteer experiences (the mean values of independent applicants that matched)? If so, then lucky you, at that point only 40% of PDs will even look at your app. Again, since you are so lucky, then you MIGHT be one of the 17 independent applicants who matched. **The numbers/values are nearly identical for ENT-- the only other speciality which PD's considerably (again- 40% and 37%, of which only a combined 33 people matched total!!!) favor USIMG vs DO. **

Enjoy fun in the sun.

That was like a big beautiful nuclear bomb of cold, hard data.
 
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Just a side note, any New Yorker will see SGU ads plastered over many Manhattan subway stations and some buses.

I'm actually very curious how Caribs will play out in the next few years. All in all, I'd rather get a solid foundation in a DO school than a USMLE heavy Carib school. Just my two cents.

Caribs are coming up, guys...


Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile
 
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Just a side note, any New Yorker will see SGU ads plastered over many Manhattan subway stations and some buses.


Case in point:
gQBwGp2.jpg
 
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Hey, you too can buy 600 rotation slots in NYC for $100 million.
 
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Really? Do you have any literature or proof to back that extravagant claim? Please find me a US CITIZEN who went to a carib school who matched at a top tier residency program.

Those FMG's found in competitive residency programs are legitimate international students from a different country.
Here's evidence that as a DO you can't do jack ****: http://med.brown.edu/neurology/residentbios

Oh wait, none of those are Caribbean MD but there are 3 DOs at this ivy league program.
 
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Just a side note, any New Yorker will see SGU ads plastered over many Manhattan subway stations and some buses.

I'm actually very curious how Caribs will play out in the next few years. All in all, I'd rather get a solid foundation in a DO school than a USMLE heavy Carib school. Just my two cents.

Caribs are coming up, guys...


Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile

We literally have billboards and flyers of AUC and AUA everywhere at UCSD. It's insane.
 
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I'd actually be fine with any GME policy which would crush carib schools. I think they're predatory and a dangerous investment, considering people's first hand accounts on SDN, match data and average indebtedness of their grads who quite often never even work as doctors.
 
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I'd actually be fine with any GME policy which would crush carib schools. I think they're predatory and a dangerous investment, considering people's first hand accounts on SDN, match data and average indebtedness of their grads who quite often never even work as doctors.
The AOA house of delegates did pass a resolution last summer supporting US MD and DO grads matching first. However, many think such a match wouldn't happen because of a number of programs that would be hostile to the idea of taking DO's automatically over qualified IMG's- or even taking DO's at all.
 
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The AOA house of delegates did pass a resolution last summer supporting US MD and DO grads matching first. However, many think such a match wouldn't happen because of a number of programs that would be hostile to the idea of taking DO's automatically over qualified IMG's- or even taking DO's at all.

I think hostility is very much going away. Ucsd was the last school I thought that would accept DOs and they've started already.
 
I think hostility is very much going away. Ucsd was the last school I thought that would accept DOs and they've started already.
I don't necessarily disagree. Just that while DO is generally > than IMG, this doesn't mean all programs would be on board with a policy of automatically taking DO's before IMG's/FMG's.

The presence of this opposition, which I imagine would be quite strong with certain programs, could pose a significant barrier towards implenting a US-Grads-first type match.
 
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Stupid question: What's the difference between Foreign MG and International MG? Aren't they synonymous to each other?


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they told me they regret going the DO route and would've chosen the carribean MD if they could redo.

they wanted to go into one of the prestigious residencies and they did well on USMLE, got interviews for residency and said that Carribean MDs at these interviews had an advantage because of the MD bias...


Is this common place?
Is this true?


they told me DO is fine if you aren't competitive. If you're a competitive person, it's not right for you. lol
Read the outcome reports and look at the match results yourself. This has been disproven time and time again by facts.
 
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I don't necessarily disagree. Just that while DO is generally > than IMG, this doesn't mean all programs would be on board with a policy of automatically taking DO's before IMG's/FMG's.

The presence of this opposition, which I imagine would be quite strong with certain programs, could pose a significant barrier towards implenting a US-Grads-first type match.
A US grads first policy would be a Washington initiative, not a NRMP one, most likely, so this would go above the heads of those that would be against it. There's been talk of lobbying for a bill that ties federal residency funding to matching US grads first, but I honestly don't agree with it. There are a lot of brilliant FMGs out there we would lose out on with such a policy.
 
Stupid question: What's the difference between Foreign MG and International MG? Aren't they synonymous to each other?

"Foreign" makes you sound like a furreigner; "international" makes you a world traveler.
 
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Here's evidence that as a DO you can't do jack ****: http://med.brown.edu/neurology/residentbios

Oh wait, none of those are Caribbean MD but there are 3 DOs at this ivy league program.
You know this Ivy League stuff refers to colleges right? That's it's not really translatable to med school and really really not translatable to residency in all fields?

The NRMP data spells it out. Posting random single programs that you think help your argument is pointless.
 
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Stupid question: What's the difference between Foreign MG and International MG? Aren't they synonymous to each other?


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Some people prefer using FMG as a term to distinguish foreign born and trained physicians, which are a distinct entity from US IMGs. You could also call them non-US IMGs, but FMG is way easier.
 
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There are a lot of brilliant FMGs out there we would lose out on with such a policy.

so what, **** them. I can't crush the Germany boards and expect a residency/internship there before their citizens get their cut. I can't walk into France without taking a backseat to French citizens/EU members.

That's the nature of training in the rest of the world. The US is one of the few places that allows non-citizens an equal crack at the ball without consideration to citizenship status. And we have more than enough qualified medical students to seat every competitive residency without having to resort to xyz's countries' superstars.
 
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so what, **** them. I can't crush the Germany boards and expect a residency/internship there before their citizens get their cut. I can't walk into France without taking a backseat to French citizens/EU members.

That's the nature of training in the rest of the world. The US is one of the few places that allows non-citizens an equal crack at the ball without consideration to citizenship status. And we have more than enough qualified medical students to seat every competitive residency without having to resort to xyz's countries' superstars.
I'd rather the US gain a brilliant researcher and physician than cast them aside because of their nationality just so we can take some bottom of the barrel US grad instead. Many of the best physicians I've worked with are FMGs, the best and brightest from their respective countries. We're not talking some Carib grads here- we're talking people who graduated at the top of their class from places like Cambridge, Oxford, and the University College of London, people with research skills and clinical acumen that serves to keep the U.S. on the cutting edge of medical research and technology. We shouldn't lose that edge in the name of protectionism- and I say that as a person with a dog in this fight. America is what it is because we take the best and brightest from all over, not because we engage in protectionism and intellectual inbreeding.
 
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Yeah and I bet the programs that prefer caribbean MDs over DOs are the better, more competitive programs. In that respect, you are worse off a DO. It sucks but it's life

I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but I do not believe that statement to be true. My program, for instance, does not interview Caribbean grads, but will interview DOs.
 
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I'd rather the US gain a brilliant researcher and physician than cast them aside because of their nationality just so we can take some bottom of the barrel US grad instead. Many of the best physicians I've worked with are FMGs, the best and brightest from their respective countries. We're not talking some Carib grads here- we're talking people who graduated at the top of their class from places like Cambridge, Oxford, and the University College of London, people with research skills and clinical acumen that serves to keep the U.S. on the cutting edge of medical research and technology. We shouldn't lose that edge in the name of protectionism- and I say that as a person with a dog in this fight. America is what it is because we take the best and brightest from all over, not because we engage in protectionism and intellectual inbreeding.
I am waiting to be a full fledged attending so I can have an opinion in that aspect...:)
 
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I don't necessarily disagree. Just that while DO is generally > than IMG, this doesn't mean all programs would be on board with a policy of automatically taking DO's before IMG's/FMG's.

The presence of this opposition, which I imagine would be quite strong with certain programs, could pose a significant barrier towards implenting a US-Grads-first type match.

Do you think that implementation could be pushed forward with new policy directed across all programs because of the merger?
 
You know this Ivy League stuff refers to colleges right? That's it's not really translatable to med school and really really not translatable to residency in all fields?

The NRMP data spells it out. Posting random single programs that you think help your argument is pointless.
Sigh* fine.

Source that this is considered a top program: http://psych.ucsf.edu/news.aspx?id=8253
Source that there are 2 DOs: http://psych.ucsf.edu/education.aspx?id=67713

I know you'll repeat that it's n=1, but I have yet to see a single top program EVER that takes Caribbean MD, whereas taking DO happens (albeit rarely).
 
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Do you think that implementation could be pushed forward with new policy directed across all programs because of the merger?
DOs now own a huge chunk of the pie. I have no doubt that regardless of any stupid opposition that we'd manage to get everyone onboard. Mark my words. It will happen eventually. The caribbean with its practice of buying training spots is a huge danger to MD programs. DOs being merged in is a lovely excuse for a two tier matching system. Destroying the caribbean option takes precedence over what a few rogue programs may dislike.
 
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Here's evidence that as a DO you can't do jack ****: http://med.brown.edu/neurology/residentbios

Oh wait, none of those are Caribbean MD but there are 3 DOs at this ivy league program.

Sigh* fine.

Source that this is considered a top program: http://psych.ucsf.edu/news.aspx?id=8253
Source that there are 2 DOs: http://psych.ucsf.edu/education.aspx?id=67713

I know you'll repeat that it's n=1, but I have yet to see a single top program EVER that takes Caribbean MD, whereas taking DO happens (albeit rarely).

When you submit evidence to support your point, make sure you understand it well enough to know what it's saying.

Overall, Neurology only has about half enough US MD applicants as it would need to fill its seats, so even "good" Neuro residencies are within the reach of competent DO / IMG / FMG applicants. Indeed, outside of the "top tier" programs, you'll find many Neuro residencies are only about 50% US MD grads, and it's a field where some programs, recognizing the 50% reality, have done well to recognize the benefit of targeting the strongest not-US-MD applicants over weak US MDs. There are programs (like mine) that seem to favor IMG>Carib>DO, while others (particularly in the midwest) are the complete opposite), and that is just a cultural bias from the individual PD/Chair/etc.

Furthermore, when looking at any given program, don't forget that you can't tell whether that program ranked the FMGs higher than the DOs or vice versa, or how many scrambled/SOAPed into their spots . . . .merely what the program ended up with. Indeed, there was one year in which C (a top tier Neuro program) was so malignant to their interviewees that they had to fill a bunch of seats with scrambling IMG/FMGs -- not because they like them, but because they had no choice. Do you hold it up as an example of success for those individuals? Or a mixed basket of luck and misfortune (in the opinion of many I know who interviewed there, the doors opened by the name could never clear the cloud of misery that seems to follow their residents). I wrote this before you added the UCSF example, and will not claim to know the circumstances of that class, however, I will tell you that while it is a top program for both Neuro and Psych, I have known many people (myself included) who did not rank it highly b/c of the unwelcoming atmosphere in fields in which that sorely and glaringly sticks out when you're reviewing your interview days.

So, you can look at overall data and make a judgment as to whether it's foolish to go to the islands for an MD as opposed to staying in the US for a DO, but do not drag individual residencies in as an example -- it hurts your point and makes you (unnecessarily) look like you couldn't find better support of your completely valid point when your example means something else entirely to those with more info than you -- you held up a non-highly-regarded Neurology program as an example . . . one at a hospital in financial trouble, where residents acknowledged inadequate nursing support on my interview day, one within a stone's throw of some of the best academic Neurology in the country such that the most interesting cases are often lured away, and the only place I ever interviewed where my interviewers said disparaging things about the residents (unheard of outside of the top programs in our super friendly field). You and your DO colleagues can and should aim higher than that.
 
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