A few (or many) questions about reapplying

[Bob IV]

Hi, I'm a first-time poster who is likely to be rejected from every school I applied to (no interviews). Between my own gut instinct, advice from other people, and reading DrMidlife's Re-application Dissertation, I'm fairly confident that I am a classic example of how not to apply to medical school (late application, virtually no clinical experience, etc.). I'd like to pick your collective brains on how best to improve and rework my application.

* denotes an item that has improved significantly since my original application submission
** denotes an item that was not mentioned at all on my original application

The Vitals

Ethnicity/Gender: Asian/Male
State: Texas
MCAT: 12PS/11VR/15BS (38)
cGPA: 3.15 (undergraduate, biomedical engineering)
sGPA: 3.05 (undergraduate, biomedical engineering)
gGPA: 4.00 (biomedical engineering)

The Non-Clinical ECs

• Proofread journal/conference papers for 6 years (~1 paper/month)
• Tutored math/science for 2 years (volunteer)*
• Participated in a program to help freshmen get accustomed to college life for 1 semester
• Research in a biomedical engineering lab for 2 semesters during undergraduate career
• Research in electrical engineering labs for 3 summers (2 summers in one lab; 1 summer in another lab)
• Full-time research in a biomedical engineering lab for 2 years (current, have a leadership role in this lab)*
• 6 conference/journal papers in EE (All 2nd or 3rd author), 12 conference posters in BME (4/12 1st author), 3 in-the-works journal papers in BME (2/3, maybe 3/3 1st author), 1 Master's thesis in the works*
• High school policy debate judge for 3 years
• Here-and-there volunteering at various academic conferences, robotics competitions/science fairs, local charity, etc.*

The Clinical ECs

• 45 hours shadowing primary care physician in clinic (International)**
• 15 hours shadowing ENT physicians in hospital/clinic (International)**
• 15 hours shadowing primary care physician in clinic (USA)**
• ~60 hours volunteering at a local charity clinic (working on this)*

The Questions

Do you require additional information to answer the following questions?

Outside of Texas, I applied dumbly. What kind of schools should I be looking at with my current and/or 3-months-in-the-future stats?

My international shadowing was in an East Asian country, but I observed strictly "Western" medicine (no tigers or rhinos were harmed to further my clinical exposure) and got to chat with the doctors over there about the medical issues endemic to that region. Do adcoms evaluate this type of experience differently compared to domestic shadowing?

It's my understanding that adcoms don't weigh graduate GPA as much due to the perceived "easiness" of the courses offered at the graduate level. However, all of my graduate classes also have an undergraduate section, and both graduate and undergraduate students are taught simultaneously in the same classroom. The only real difference is that graduate students have higher grade thresholds, are graded more strictly on projects, and are typically expected to complete more assignments. Making a C or worse is a very real possibility in many of the graduate classes that I've taken. Is there a way to present this information to adcoms viewing my application, and would it be advantageous to do so?

I haven't maintained any contact with my undergraduate professors. All of my LORs last cycle were research-related. Obviously I need to change this, but are letters from graduate school faculty acceptable?

On the same issue of LORs, do adcoms weigh a letter from a fresh senior lecturer differently compared to a letter from the department chair, assuming all else is equal?

Any general advice is also greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

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[razzmatazz87]

I'm definitely not a pro (or adcom) but also reapplying. Your MCAT is amazing, just keep up extracurriculars and get some more clinical experience if you can.

I can't say for sure on the LOR but I would assume a department chair is more impressive, if both reviews are equal of the candidate.

Apply EARLY, like I plan on doing, and hopefully it would work out.

 

[Bob IV]

Thanks for your input. Where would you suggest getting more clinical experience? Realistically, I have only 2-3 months to add new material to my application because I don't want to apply late again. I plan to continue volunteering at the clinic, where I have the opportunity to interact with patients.

 

[razzmatazz87]

Hospital volunteering is probably most common but looks good, its what I am also doing. Or maybe Hospice. More shadowing if you can. I feel you, its hard to get all those hours in with school/work/whatnot

 

[gyngyn]

As a TX resident your best chances are in TX. OOS schools tend not to interview from there because so few will matriculate if they are accepted.
TX matriculated a whopping 36.6% of its applicants last year. Only 195 students left TX for medical schools (and I'll bet most of them got hefty scholarship packages). We all know this data. After a while we just quit interviewing these candidates unless we think they will qualify for big $. Your gpa probably convinced us otherwise.

I can think of no way to convince us about your Master's grades.

International experiences do not count as shadowing at my school.

 

[Bob IV]

As a TX resident your best chances are in TX. OOS schools tend not to interview from there because so few will matriculate if they are accepted.
TX matriculated a whopping 36.6% of its applicants last year. Only 195 students left TX for medical schools (and I'll bet most of them got hefty scholarship packages). We all know this data. After a while we just quit interviewing these candidates unless we think they will qualify for big $. Your gpa probably convinced us otherwise.

I can think of no way to convince us about your Master's grades.

International experiences do not count as shadowing at my school.

Thanks for your honest opinion, gyngyn. Would it be appropriate to contact schools to inquire about their individual policies on international shadowing? Also, I have read a lot of conflicting information concerning graduate-level coursework. Exactly how worthless is
non-SMP/post-bacc coursework? Thanks again.

 

[gyngyn]

Thanks for your honest opinion, gyngyn. Would it be appropriate to contact schools to inquire about their individual policies on international shadowing? Also, I have read a lot of conflicting information concerning graduate-level coursework. Exactly how worthless is
non-SMP/post-bacc coursework? Thanks again.

When you contact a school by email or phone you get a staff person who has been trained to answer FAQ's. When an uncommon question is asked, the chance that one will get a useful answer goes way down.

There are two reasons that Masters grades have little impact. One is that most candidates do not have them. How do you compare something to the majority of candidates that lack the data point. Two: those of us that have taught Masters and undergrad students have become aware that grades of all types are expected in undergrad, but everybody that shows up gets an A in the Master's. A "B" is like flunking. This may not be true in every Masters program but since it is the common experience, A's are devalued.

 

[Bob IV]

When you contact a school by email or phone you get a staff person who has been trained to answer FAQ's. When an uncommon question is asked, the chance that one will get a useful answer goes way down.

When I responded to one of my (now) many rejection emails to ask for particulars, I received a fairly detailed and very prompt response from the director of admissions at that school, or at least someone masquerading as him. Is this atypical? I was hoping that the phenomenon could be repeated with other inquiries.

There are two reasons that Masters grades have little impact. One is that most candidates do not have them. How do you compare something to the majority of candidates that lack the data point. Two: those of us that have taught Masters and undergrad students have become aware that grades of all types are expected in undergrad, but everybody that shows up gets an A in the Master's. A "B" is like flunking. This may not be true in every Masters program but since it is the common experience, A's are devalued.

I see. Now I'm wondering if I should have signed up for the undergraduate sections for all of my courses.

I really appreciate the insight you've offered and time you've spent answering my questions.

 

[gyngyn]

When I responded to one of my (now) many rejection emails to ask for particulars, I received a fairly detailed and very prompt response from the director of admissions at that school, or at least someone masquerading as him. Is this atypical? I was hoping that the phenomenon could be repeated with other inquiries.



I see. Now I'm wondering if I should have signed up for the undergraduate sections for all of my courses.

I really appreciate the insight you've offered and time you've spent answering my questions.

I am told that in smaller states, with a single public medical school, there is a higher likelihood of accurate, detailed, even truthful answers to such questions. I have never experienced it myself, though.

 

[Bob IV]

I guess that can be construed as an encouraging sign, given that it was from a Texas public school. Thanks!

 

[Bob IV]

As a TX resident your best chances are in TX. OOS schools tend not to interview from there because so few will matriculate if they are accepted.
TX matriculated a whopping 36.6% of its applicants last year. Only 195 students left TX for medical schools (and I'll bet most of them got hefty scholarship packages). We all know this data. After a while we just quit interviewing these candidates unless we think they will qualify for big $. Your gpa probably convinced us otherwise.

I can think of no way to convince us about your Master's grades.

International experiences do not count as shadowing at my school.

Sorry about the double-post! I just had an extra question about being a Texas resident and OOS interviews. My stats are subpar for any school, but if OOS adcoms review my application and see my GPA, would they be more likely to extend an interview offer since I'm unlikely to be admitted to a Texas school? They wouldn't even have to offer money; I would just eat the bill because I don't have a choice. I'm probably missing some critical fact like "loans don't grow on trees", but I'm genuinely interested in reading your response to this question.

 

[Goro]

Your best chances will be at DO schools. You need some domestic shadowing, and honest-to-God patient contact volunteer experience. Plus, more non-clinical volunteer work. Right now, your app looks like the typical applicant who spent all their time in the lab.

Sorry about the double-post! I just had an extra question about being a Texas resident and OOS interviews. My stats are subpar for any school, but if OOS adcoms review my application and see my GPA, would they be more likely to extend an interview offer since I'm unlikely to be admitted to a Texas school? They wouldn't even have to offer money; I would just eat the bill because I don't have a choice. I'm probably missing some critical fact like "loans don't grow on trees", but I'm genuinely interested in reading your response to this question.

 

[gyngyn]

Sorry about the double-post! I just had an extra question about being a Texas resident and OOS interviews. My stats are subpar for any school, but if OOS adcoms review my application and see my GPA, would they be more likely to extend an interview offer since I'm unlikely to be admitted to a Texas school? They wouldn't even have to offer money; I would just eat the bill because I don't have a choice. I'm probably missing some critical fact like "loans don't grow on trees", but I'm genuinely interested in reading your response to this question.

This does work for OOS DO. Given the very small number of OOS TX matriculants, I'm inclined to think is does not often work for OOS MD.

 

[Bob IV]

Your best chances will be at DO schools.

Is this referring exclusively to my OOS options, or should I give up on Texas MD schools as well?

Ou need some domestic shadowing, and honest-to-God patient contact volunteer experience.

What would you recommend for patient contact volunteer experience, what razzmatazz87 mentioned (reproduced below)?

Hospital volunteering is probably most common but looks good, its what I am also doing. Or maybe Hospice. More shadowing if you can. I feel you, its hard to get all those hours in with school/work/whatnot

Or do you have other activities in mind? Scribing is obviously not a volunteer activity, but would that qualify as "honest-to-God patient contact volunteer experience"?

Plus, more non-clinical volunteer work. Right now, your app looks like the typical applicant who spent all their time in the lab.

Would it be significantly advantageous to mention somewhere in my application that I play an integral role in the lab? The research group I am a part of is multidisciplinary, and I'm the only graduate student currently working on cell-related studies. I've trained over a dozen students ranging from high schoolers to PhD and medical school students in standard tissue culture techniques, and of that group, roughly a third have stuck around long enough for me to throw in some instruction in molecular biology techniques and quantitative analysis. I do this on top of my own research projects, and I supervise every other ongoing cell-related project.

This is not intended as a substitute for volunteer work, but I would like your feedback on whether this would set me apart (in a good way) from other applicants with research experience on their résumés.

I'm also interested to hear your opinion on the last two questions in my original post (below).

I haven't maintained any contact with my undergraduate professors. All of my LORs last cycle were research-related. Obviously I need to change this, but are letters from graduate school faculty acceptable?

On the same issue of LORs, do adcoms weigh a letter from a fresh senior lecturer differently compared to a letter from the department chair, assuming all else is equal?

Thanks!

 

[Goro]

My trouble is that I don't know how the TX school view reinvention! However, I always recommend one's state schools, so perhaps I typed too soon.

Is this referring exclusively to my OOS options, or should I give up on Texas MD schools as well?



What would you recommend for patient contact volunteer experience, what razzmatazz87 mentioned (reproduced below)?
Or do you have other activities in mind? Scribing is obviously not a volunteer activity, but would that qualify as "honest-to-God patient contact volunteer experience"?

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics. Check out your local houses of worship for volunteer opportunities.

Service need not be "unique". If you can alleviate suffering in your community through service to the poor, homeless, illiterate, fatherless, etc, you are meeting an otherwise unmet need and learning more about the lives of the people (or types of people) who will someday be your patients.

Examples include: Habitat for Humanity, Humane Society, crisis hotlines, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless or women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for students or coaching a sport in a poor school district, teaching ESL to adults at a community center, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or Meals on Wheels.


Do you want to be a PhD or be a doctor?
Would it be significantly advantageous to mention somewhere in my application that I play an integral role in the lab? The research group I am a part of is multidisciplinary, and I'm the only graduate student currently working on cell-related studies. I've trained over a dozen students ranging from high schoolers to PhD and medical school students in standard tissue culture techniques, and of that group, roughly a third have stuck around long enough for me to throw in some instruction in molecular biology techniques and quantitative analysis. I do this on top of my own research projects, and I supervise every other ongoing cell-related project.

Showing initiative and leadership is OK. Showing us that you know what you're getting into and really want to be around sick and injured people, and their families, is better.
This is not intended as a substitute for volunteer work, but I would like your feedback on whether this would set me apart (in a good way) from other applicants with research experience on their résumés.




Thanks!
[/QUOTE]

 

[Bob IV]

My trouble is that I don't know how the TX school view reinvention! However, I always recommend one's state schools, so perhaps I typed too soon.

As always, thanks for the response. Is there someone who is more familiar with this topic (and Texas schools in general) that I could reach out to on this site?

Do you want to be a PhD or be a doctor?

While I do enjoy research, I have chosen to pursue a career in medicine for reasons I'm not comfortable disclosing to strangers on the internet (no offense). My apparently excessive work in the lab is partially a (perhaps misguided) attempt to demonstrate my discipline and competence in the sciences, and partially due to the fact that progress grinds to a halt in my absence, which could jeopardize my timely graduation. I'm not trying to make excuses; I'm just trying to explain my situation. Even if I beef up my clinical ECs, my application would still be heavily research-focused. Would the lopsidedness of my application negatively affect my chances of getting in?

 

[Goro]

I doubt it, but be prepared for lots of questions of why so much research. But if interviewers get a whiff that you'd rather be in the lab than in the clinic or around patients, on to the wait list you go.

Even if I beef up my clinical ECs, my application would still be heavily research-focused. Would the lopsidedness of my application negatively affect my chances of getting in?[/QUOTE]

 

[Bob IV]

I doubt it, but be prepared for lots of questions of why so much research. But if interviewers get a whiff that you'd rather be in the lab than in the clinic or around patients, on to the wait list you go.

Even if I beef up my clinical ECs, my application would still be heavily research-focused. Would the lopsidedness of my application negatively affect my chances of getting in?

Got it.

I remembered that one of the application systems (I think TMDSAS) calculated my GPA for me. It says I've got a 3.19 cGPA and 3.18 BCPM GPA for my undergraduate career, which is somewhat higher than what my back-of-the-napkin calculations indicate (particularly for BCPM). It's still far from stellar, and looking at the MSAR data is still horribly depressing. If I fail again this cycle, should I consider a post-bacc, or can I just take a bunch of upper-division undergraduate science courses at my current university?

I also have a half-joke of a question with a rather long preface: I redeemed 62 credit hours of AP credit (and scored well enough to have redeemed 72), of which 25 or 28 can be classified as BCPM, depending on how you choose to categorize computer science. I haven't taken the time to read all the stipulations, but I could theoretically grind out roughly 40 hours' worth of these classes out in 2 semesters at a community college/my current university with little issue and possibly more if I throw in some summer courses. Obviously the adcoms aren't idiots, but it might make my application look more appealing at a first glance and give them an idea of how my transcript would have looked if I hadn't leapt feet-first into courses like genetics, physical chemistry, and differential equations. Is this a viable option?

Thanks again for your input.

 

[AspiringERMD]

Just a quick interjection: computer science does not count as BCPM unless it is cross-listed as math (e.g. Cryptography or Graph Theory, perhaps).