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A list of the average step 1 scores of anesthesia programs

Discussion in 'Anesthesiology' started by Purpose, Feb 2, 2007.

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  1. Purpose

    Purpose New Member

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    SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)
    To help future anesthesiology applicants out, lets start a list of the average STEP 1 score of applicants that matched at anesthesia programs in 2006. To make this info useful, please indicate who told you the number. I'll start us off.

    Michigan - 231 The chair or PD told us (can't remember which one)
    Emory - 227 The chair or PD told us (can't remember which one)
  2. StealYourFace

    StealYourFace New Member

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    I didn't encounter too many programs sharing their #'s, but I remember the Stanford chair did:

    2007 interview intivees - average step I 237/66% AOA
  3. nutmegs

    nutmegs ASA Member

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    I think it was Vanderbilt that had a 220 cutoff.
  4. isoflurane

    isoflurane

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    this thread is retarded and serves no purpose. The NRMP each year tells the average score and that is all that matters. Programs use the score as one factor in many, so forget about it. I have met a lot of people who scored well that I would rather not work with and others that did not score as well and would trust my life to them. So continue if you must to brag about yourselves but to all those students reading for next year pay no attention.
  5. loveumms

    loveumms Senior Member

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    AMEN to that!!!

    I feel like people have to continually talk about board scores. Seriously, one test is not going to make or break you (unless an institution has a cut off and you didn't reach it).

    I agree with isoflurane - there are plenty of people that score 250+ who totally suck ... and there are people who failed that are awesome.

    When the chair at Emory gave us the intro talk he said there was a applicant that scored 260s - in his interest section there was nothing written. So, they didn't interview that person. I think his words were "who wants to work with someone that doesn't have any skills or interests besides studying?" Of course it's important but, it's NOT everything.
  6. morpheus md

    morpheus md Interventional Pain 09-10

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    I would agree and go one further: I don't think I'd want to train at any program that thinks Step 1 scores are so important that they need to tell you the average. Who cares, you already are interviewing there, it really shouldn't be about numbers at that point. I heard the same schpiel a couple years ago at Stanford and was unimpressed. What's more important to discuss is their work hours, call schedule, board pass rates, educational stipend and lectures, etc. "Average Step 1 scores" shouldn't even be on the radar.
  7. Duckie24

    Duckie24 Totally Quackers!

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    Agreed 100%. If you make the interview I think the Step 1 scores should be thrown out at that point. Everything else in the file plus the actual interview are much more important after the initial cuts.

    And Stanford interviewing 66% AOA? Those numbers sound like there might be a bit of fudge on them. :rolleyes: I think nationally last year AOA applicants were 6% of applicants overall. Maybe he's talking about American Osteopathic Association applicants. :laugh:
  8. morpheus md

    morpheus md Interventional Pain 09-10

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    Stanford is more interested in trying to convince their interviewees they measure up to UCSF than anything else.
  9. StealYourFace

    StealYourFace New Member

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    I personally think this thread is neither retarded nor purposeless. Everyone knows that board scores are one factor among many. Everyone also knows a classmate who scored high but is an asshole (as well as a great co-worker who scored low). But that's not the point of this thread. The point is, from the perspective of many, many programs, step I is one of most important things to consider when deciding to interview an applicant. I agree with Morpheus and Duckie to an extent -- once you get the interview, step I carries much less weight, but I still think it matters. But to say step I is merely one of a vast number of criteria in actually securing the interview is very misleading. This is not coming from someone with an off the charts boards score. Nor is it an argument that step one should be important. It's just stating that for many places, it is very important.

    So the purpose of this thread (in my opinion) should be to let future applicants know where they stand based on this year, especially if there are specific programs they are interested in. NO ONE is saying you can't interview and match if you don't meet the average, nor should it be discouraging if that's the case. Instead, you should try to develop other part of your application that might help (3rd year grades, take step II early, research, etc). It's certainly not "retarded" to get more information about places you may want to train at.

    Regarding Stanford per se, I mentioned it because it was the only place to "number drop" during the interview day. Like Morpheus, I also thought it was weird. I just posted it because that was the point of the thread.
  10. amyl

    amyl ASA Member

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    As a future applicant I appreciate this thread, so please don't kill it. I know scores are not everything but they DO count and often might be the deciding factor in getting an interview or not. So please, for us future applicants, if you have this info I personally would LOVE to hear about it at the programs I am interested in (which is every program because I want to be an anesthesiologist however that happens! ;-)
  11. Darwin

    Darwin

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    And they go to great lengths to do this, even going so far as to fill their class :laugh:
  12. dara678

    dara678 Hello Kitty Fan

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    I think this will be helpful! It's at least good to know which programs are accessible and which are "reach" programs ...
  13. harryh

    harryh

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    UTSW (Dallas, TX) ----- 157

    The urologist who is the Anesthesia program director told me they were shooting for 170 up from 157.


  14. lord_jeebus

    lord_jeebus 和魂洋才 Moderator

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    Also funny considering that Stanford doesn't have an AOA chapter of its own
  15. Duckie24

    Duckie24 Totally Quackers!

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    I hope you don't let this thread influence how/where you apply based on the numbers posted. The offering of interviews seems VERY random, and I think almost everyone who has gone through the process will agree with that. Apply wherever you want to go, regardless of what you think their average score might be. Yeah, some places do have cutoff scores....with the number of applicants now they have to narrow them down somehow. But, if I had limited my applications based on my board score and where I thought I met get an interview, I would never have gotten some of the interviews I did. Apply broadly with a well-rounded application and let the interview offers roll in. You'll get some nice "reach" programs, and not others....you'll even get the cold shoulder from some places you were counting on as safeties.
  16. StealYourFace

    StealYourFace New Member

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    I cut and pasted this from the Ortho forum (yes, I know it's Ortho, not Anesthesia). So while it's true that there are many factors considered when offering an interview to an applicant, clearly some are much more important than others. For Ortho, step I is the 2nd most important. Although there may be some variation between specialties, you get the idea:

    Orthopaedic Resident-Selection Criteria
    Adam D. Bernstein, MD, Laith M. Jazrawi, MD, Basil Elbeshbeshy, MD, Craig J. DellaValle, MD and Joseph D. Zuckerman, MD
    The Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery (American) 84:2090-2096 (2002)
    © 2002 The Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery, Inc.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    TABLE I: Ranking of the Twenty-six Resident-Selection Criteria According to the Results of the Questionnaire Completed by Orthopaedic Residency Program Directors

    Rank/ Score/ Resident-Selection Criteria


    1 7.88 ± 1.71 (n = 109) Rotation at director's institution
    2 7.78 ± 1.48 (n = 109) USMLE Part-I score
    3 7.77 ± 1.34 (n = 108) Rank in medical school
    4 7.55 ± 1.57 (n = 109) Formality/politeness at interview
    5 7.35 ± 1.39 (n = 109) Personal appearance of candidate
    6 7.11 ± 2.12 (n = 102) Performance on ethical questions at interview
    7 7.01 ± 1.94 (n = 108) Letter of recommendation by orthopaedic surgeon
    8 6.92 ± 1.90 (n = 109) Candidate is Alpha Omega Alpha member
    9 6.47 ± 1.71 (n = 109) Medical school reputation
    10 6.25 ± 2.10 (n = 109) Dean's letter
    11 5.84 ± 2.26 (n = 108) Personal statement
    12 5.74 ± 2.56 (n = 107) Failed first attempt at matching to an orthopaedic residency program
    13 5.67 ± 2.46 (n = 106) Telephone call placed on candidate's behalf
    14 5.66 ± 1.97 (n = 109) Candidate has published research
    15 5.50 ± 2.14 (n = 108) Candidate participated in a dedicated research experience
    16 5.13 ± 1.89 (n = 108) Letter of recommendation from nonorthopaedic surgeon
    17 4.93 ± 2.20 (n = 109) Candidate is MD/PhD
    18 4.83 ± 2.13 (n = 109) Reputation of undergraduate institution
    19 4.61 ± 2.38 (n = 108) Undergraduate grade-point average
    20 4.44 ± 2.16 (n = 107) Appearance of curriculum vitae
    21 4.30 ± 2.15 (n = 109) Letter of recommendation from a senior resident
    22 3.94 ± 2.48 (n = 109) Candidate has a relative affiliated with director's program
    23 3.56 ± 2.12 (n = 108) Candidate has an undergraduate engineering major
    24 3.26 ± 2.41 (n = 108) Thank-you letter from candidate
    25 2.32 ± 2.22 (n = 66) Performance on manual skills testing during interview
    26 1.78 ± 1.76 (n = 64) Evaluation by psychologist/psychiatrist during interview
    -----------------
  17. Purpose

    Purpose New Member

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    Are you just talking about the average score of ALL the programs (ie the avg score of applicants that matched into anesthesia at all programs in 2006)? If so, I don't see how you can't find this thread useful.

    Many applicants want to know where they stand, and its a lie to lead them to believe that STEP1 does not play a huge role in who gets an interview and who doesn't. Other than Step1, AOA status, and regional preferences, there is not much that can be used to easily discriminate between the hundreds of applicants when PDs are deciding who should get an interview.


  18. Bertelman

    Bertelman Maverick!

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    That's funny, 'cause when I called Emory, they said their Step1 cutoff was 225. That's a pretty tight ship they must run.
  19. fakin' the funk

    fakin' the funk CA-2

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    Touchy touchy...I liked this thread until your post. This isn't about the validity of using programs using the Step 1 scores, or whether smart people are good doctors or easy to get along with. This is about numbers - numbers that I and others would like to know.

    So please, those of you who know them, continue to post.
  20. fakin' the funk

    fakin' the funk CA-2

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    So, most of the class has resoundingly failed Step 1?
  21. amyl

    amyl ASA Member

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    Thanks for the advice. This thread is not going to change where I apply because I think I am going to apply EVERYWHERE! Just might help me sleep a little better if I think I might actually get a spot at one of my top choices.:)
    Best of luck to everyone counting down the days to match day.:luck:
  22. Duckie24

    Duckie24 Totally Quackers!

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    That's great, but I still question seriously what you plan to do with the numbers? If it in any way changes how you are applying, then you are making a big mistake. If you are using them to gauge how hard you plan on studying for the next big test, that is also unwise. I did pretty bad on Step I, but I still applied to every program I was interested in. I got a big fat rejection from some, but I got interviews at tons of "top" places too, and I just got letters from the PD's of two of those programs today that have made my weekend a nice one. :D

    Work hard, get good letters, and apply broadly to wherever you want, no matter what your scores are. I'll let you know if my advice changes after Match Day.
  23. nutmegs

    nutmegs ASA Member

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    some people just like having information. they weren't asking anyone's opinion on what to do with average step 2 score values.
  24. UTSouthwestern

    UTSouthwestern 1K Member Moderator Emeritus

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    Since this is your first post and you specifically target UTSW, I will bet that you are one of the many reincarnations of the the few banned posters that I have sparred with. Or you may just be retarded.

    I'd bet on both.
  25. Lizard1

    Lizard1 Member

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    to clarify Emory's stnace on "cut-off" scores

    last year, if the score was 220 or greater, the file was reviewed and evaluated for an interview. for the files with, let's say, 205-219, were placed in an alternate stack. once the >220's had been gone through, the alternate stack was evaluated and, depending on the number of available interview slots, certain impressive files were pulled and marked for interview.

    it's not so much that Emory thinks they're the shiznit and only will accept AOA, but more so what do you do if you've got all these apps coming in? you've got to set the line somewhere to do a "1st pass" elimination so to speak and limit the # of apps to be truly evaluated

    sounds like this yr the applicant pool has become even more competitive so the # increased to 225.

    AND i do not have any more affiliation with Emory so please don't PM/email me about getting your app through
  26. m3unsure

    m3unsure Junior Member

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    For all those who didn't do hot on Step 1...

    It really doesn't make or break you. Look at all the other superficial garbage on that ortho paper posting. Personal appearance is so subjective, and I assume that color, height, size of your breasts (if applicable), and all the other nonsense plays into that.

    If you don't get an interview, then you lost 8 bucks or so. Whatever.

    If you get an interview, then you get a chance to role the dice again with each interviewer. Most places don't really care about your score. I have heard very few people mention how they like my 99. They care about where you are from (geographic bias) and probably if you're cute enough to have meeting in the call room. I'm being very cynical, but it's just to point out how subjective everything gets after this score.

    So don't sweat it if your score is not great. Other wild $h|t plays into this, and even 1 bad interview for someone with a great CV could mean being at the bottom of the list. I had an experience like that at one "prestigious" institution, but I don't care since I don't plan on coming back because their attitudes sucked. Way too proper.

    Therefore, maybe someone with a 210 beat me out at this place that sucked big nuts. Hopefully, I provided some inspiration. Apply based on locations and your potential interest. Also, letters from really prominent people help much more than they are ranked on that ortho posting. It changed the tone of many interviews.
  27. pratik7

    pratik7 Senior Member

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    How do you do about finding out who is really prominent? It seems like the really good teachers and mentors are not well known cause they arent in the research circle.
  28. rufio173

    rufio173 Junior Member

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    I love this quote... :)
  29. m3unsure

    m3unsure Junior Member

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    Finding out who is big in the respective specialty takes some investigation. I didn't know who was big where I am at so I went around asking fourth years when I was a third year and ask residents. They are more aware of the politics and can lead you towards the right people. If like 10 people point out 1 person, then that person does hold a lot of power. Then, I found out he was an oral board examiner so that means someone must know him at least by name if not personally.

    It's hard to figure this kind of stuff out so you gotta put in the time before ERAS opens up.
  30. m3unsure

    m3unsure Junior Member

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    That 231 at Mich and interviewing practically only AOA at Stanford is far towards the truth than something made up. However, the other 33% including me are not AOA so let's not all be in despair.

    And for those who think Step 1 should be thrown out the door once getting an interview, I don't think so. If somebody just gets by on this, they are not going to be so hot on the rest of their exams. So if you do really well, then that's one less thing to worry about. Plus, a 15min session with an applicant does not really help people separate two individuals unless one never opens his/her mouth or someone is just a good bull$h|tter.

    The jealousy of people who didn't do well is so apparent since tons of posts are always about examples of introverts with high scores. What about high scoring relatively normal people? And idiots who have no saving grace? Sometimes, I think the people who are not good students in terms of medical knowledge are the ones good at BSing. How about being criticized for being a people person a.k.a fakers who will say anything to please someone else?

    Once again, apply based on interest, not the potential liking of your application. ~$8 versus what if. Pick your side. I'd rather be turned down than always wonder. Interest can also be shown by contacting programs once the Dean's Letter is released. You get on a list and they may contact you in December with an opening. Persistence with cordiality is not a bad thing.
  31. driverabu

    driverabu www.riograndband.com

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    Bla Bla Bla, bottom line is that if you don't make a certain cutoff and who knows what that cutoff is for every program, you WILL NOT be granted an interview, I don't care about everything else. It is stupid, I know and I'm sure I missed out on a handful of extra interviews because my step 1 was a 219 and didn't make that "magical 220," but I did score a 242 on step 2. Either way, I was in the program coordinator's office back in nov/dec and she was just eyeing the applicants and if they did not meet a certain step 1 cutoff, they were NOT being interviewed, hands down, all other paperwork (personal statement, LOR, grades, etc, etc...) did NOT matter.....Stupid, but true of most programs of competitive specialties
  32. Bertelman

    Bertelman Maverick!

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    When you talk about Step 1 scores, nobody should believe it is as easy as differentiating those that barely scraped by v. those that did really, really well. We're not arguing the two ends of the bell curve. The frustration comes from a program with an arbitrary cutoff, as though that person with a 219 is just SOOO prone to failing their anes. boards. We all understand the reality of having to review 1,000 applications. But there's a reason the application is about 30 pages thicker than the one line it requires to report my Step 1. And from the stats I've heard, the only time that a Step 1 can predict difficulties with specialty board exams is when it is closer to the sub-200 range, not that measly 215. You don't want your Step 1 thrown out once interviews start simply because you realize it is a shining star in your app.

    And it's really not jealousy that you sense. Déjà vu- we've discussed this before. Don't believe that everyone complaining about the current reality of anesthesia competitiveness is jealous of your step score, whatever it is. We just don't understand why this one piece of info should be the determining factor driving interviews, etc. when so many other factors could equally provide a poor predictor of future success. I'll tell you why. Because it is easy for a PD to assess. It takes an admin assistant less than one hour to sort 1,000 applicants into a Yes/No pile based on a three-digit score. I could have never imagined that my future in anesthesia could be guided by the necessity for office efficiency. They could have just as easily separated us based on personality tests or E-IQ testing, but the USMLE doesn't require those (yet).

    p.s. I noticed you were originally shooting for an ophthalmology spot, using anesthesia as a backup. Welcome, future colleague. In your heart, do you truly believe you weren't smart enough to perform laser eye surgery? Or is it just that the ophtho gods could select from other candidates that were more board-prepared? Would you even have applied to anesthesia if you thought you had a sure shot with the eyeball?

    Seems to me your attitude about Step 1 has changed now that you find yourself atop the adjusted competition pool.
  33. m3unsure

    m3unsure Junior Member

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    I walked into 4th year with kind of an open mindset. I was focused on surgical fields minus gen surg, ENT, and ortho which I already had seen as a 3rd year and then anesthesia. I thought that I could find something in the eyeballs, and so I did the rotation. I ended up liking it 50/50 (too much clinic, not enough OR) and then I did anesthesia, which was much more interesting overall.

    Anesthesia was referred to as a "backup" because I guess I didn't carefully choose a more neutral word, and rather than dismiss eyeballs before even doing gas, I assume calling something a backup would make sense. Plus, the words that follow hopefully got across that I was not some diehard since 1st year and looking for a "compromise."

    On a side note, I received 7 eyeball interview invites, 4 from good places and 3 from average places, before withdrawing. I received what I was hoping for since I didn't do boatloads of eye research. So, I don't feel that I didn't cut it and decided to back out. I simply declined to waste their time and let someone who really wanted it take those spots versus canceling the day before (common courtesy to fellow med students). The whole working on 1 SMALL organ thing and family practice focused on the eye got to me eventually.

    Back to the original argument, I agree that Step 1 scores exists for the same reason like any other test: easily differentiating people though not ideal. But unlike other tests, I find that people who put in their time (1 month to many many months based on their skills) accordingly did very well in my class (~230+). These people also studied hard during the 2 pre-clinical years and always pushed themselves. Hopefully, this applies to all other medical students. So every time I hear somebody cr@p and moan about doing bad on the test, I ask them what they did for their prep. I have consistently heard wishy washy answers and regrets of not being that serious, and for people who said they studied hard, I always saw them chatting REGULARLY when I took breaks. At first, I thought my experiences were not representative of these individuals, but after a few rotations, I was convinced otherwise. So, I'm sorry for those who did bad because you may truly not be good at tests, but from personal experience, I find that a lot MORE of that has to do with commitment. For example, I never committed myself really for the MCAT unlike my friends. I received what I deserved, and so I avoided making the same mistake twice.

    ***Once again, to all future applicants, you might be cast aside if your score is below an arbitrary cutoff at a lot of "prestigious" places. So work your way around that like using contacts to your advantage and being persistent about getting that interview. Do an away rotation. Contact faculty and residents early like now to get a better idea of how things work. Start filling out those visiting student apps at places you are seriously considering. Think about fourth year now rather than whining about what your application lacks. You would be surprised what calling early on in the application process can do for you down the road.
  34. AssMan

    AssMan Junior Member

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    I love lamp :D
  35. anestheticman

    anestheticman ASA Member

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  36. AAAnesthesia

    AAAnesthesia

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    Do you really love the lamp, or are you just saying it because you saw it? :D

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