A new one to me

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Noyac

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was assigned to a THA yesterday. 47yo male with OA of the hip. He claims to have awareness under anesthesia on two separate occasions. Also, he finds that pain meds work but only for a short time. His dentist and pain doc tell him that they have to use more lido on him than any other pt in their practice.

Any ideas?

What's your plan?

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Load with orals (gabapentin, Tylenol, oxycontin, celebrex).
Throw in an LMA, run at high mac (1.5ish). Maybe throw a BIS on if its laying around.
Sneak a little ketamine at the end.
Post op: dilaudid 1 mg IVP up to 5 pushes and send to floor.

The weird LA reaction would make me want to avoid it all together (spinal/regional).
 
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Nobody would give midazolam, and more midazolam?

Then I would do everything as usually, except keeping him as deep as possible (and looking up his anesthesia records to find out what didn't work in the past for him). Also, I would clear up whether the awareness was true (intraprocedure) or not (around emergence). I would bet on the former and possibly on the fact that he is a fast metabolizer of drugs. If I were convinced of the fast metabolism, I might run him on as much propofol as he tolerates (GA-LMA), and less on gas (that's what he probably had before, and he was aware).
 
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GA with a tube. Heavy inhalational agent no NMB. vs. spinal with extensive discussion that awareness and recall will occur with spinal.
 
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was assigned to a THA yesterday. 47yo male with OA of the hip. He claims to have awareness under anesthesia on two separate occasions. Also, he finds that pain meds work but only for a short time. His dentist and pain doc tell him that they have to use more lido on him than any other pt in their practice.

Any ideas?

What's your plan?

What color hair did he have?
 
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I think the most important thing, regardless of what technique you choose, comes before you take him back to the OR -- the interview! Make sure when you consent him you tell him he is clearly at higher risk for intraoperative awareness than your average patient. Talk to him about his prior experiences. Does he have PTSD? Was he distressed by the prior surgical experiences? Was he intubated and felt like he couldn't move or breathe during the surgery? All of these answers become extraordinarily important, and will likely influence how you approach the anesthetic (as an example, if he felt like he was choking and couldnt breathe, maybe you want to avoid muscle relaxation). Obviously, obtaining prior records would be very valuable as well.

But, going off of what we have available to us, and assuming the idea of being awake during a surgery doesn't totally freak him out (he was already awake for two prior ones, right?) I would plan on doing a spinal and maybe giving him a little sedation. That way, he truly is awake and isn't gagging on a tube or LMA, and I can easily assess whether the local anesthetic "isn't working" in him. Maybe throw some ear plugs in him if he doesn't like the sound of hammering, or have him borrow my iPhone and throw on some jams. I find it hard to believe having bupivacaine bathing his nerve roots in a spinal "wouldn't work." Though there are some people who have mutations that can render local anesthetics ineffective, he apparently just "needs more" according to the dentist. Anyway, that would be plan A. Plan B is intubate him and run him super deep, probably one of the rare times I would use a BIS, load him with a benzodiazepine, and hope for the best.
 
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Run deeper on inhalational with BIS...This guy isn't Superman, no one has recall at 1.3+ MAC with benzos/narcs on board.
 
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was assigned to a THA yesterday. 47yo male with OA of the hip. He claims to have awareness under anesthesia on two separate occasions. Also, he finds that pain meds work but only for a short time. His dentist and pain doc tell him that they have to use more lido on him than any other pt in their practice.

Any ideas?

What's your plan?

What were the surgeries where he experienced awareness? I've had many patients claim awareness, then come to find out it was a sedation case- underscoring the importance of setting expectations.

I'd propose bup/morphine spinal, midaz, then ketafol sedation.
 
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Unless your surgeon is slow as hell, a bupi spinal should be fine. He MIGHT metabolize it faster, but I don't know if the pharmacokinetics of lido in subcutaneous tissues will mirror those of bupi in the spinal fluid.
It's sedation, not a general, so "recall" isn't an issue unless you have to convert, which I doubt you'd have to.
 
spinal and headphones +/- propofol TCI sedation

or

fascia iliac block, GA, BIS, and add some clonidine
 
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Noy has a juicy case here... there is more to this case I am sure.
 
While intraop awareness is real. It's also very uncommon. We need to know the types of surgeries patient has had in which he experienced it.

Agree with other poster about no muscle relaxant if general.

If it's a THA. Not sure spinal is best choice either. Anterior approaches surgeon often prefers general anesthesia. Depending on positioning.

Just keep it simple. Put him to sleep. Deep general if blood pressure tolerates it. If no obvious sleep apnea. Add versed intraop as well in addition to narcotics.
 
i consider all that he is telling you is noise from the dentist. A lot of patients tell you stuff to 1)get a rise out of you 2) they think you are going to low ball them (in terms of meds, sedation) so they say.. "oh man last time they gave me a WHOPPING dose..."/// Just yes him to death.. uh huh.. uh.. huh.. Sir everything will be fine.... Are you ready to go?
Spinal
BUPIV 2cc .1 of epi
MIDAZ for sedation
 
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spinal and headphones +/- propofol TCI sedation

or

fascia iliac block, GA, BIS, and add some clonidine


I thought GA and headphones, then quiz him on what you had playing to call his bluff.
 
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More later but on a side note he says that propofol makes him feel real bad for days afterwards. Sort of drunk and lethargic. Just plain miserable. He would rather not go through that again.
 
I thought GA and headphones, then quiz him on what you had playing to call his bluff.
I'm actually surprised this isn't a common practice - it seems a simple way to defend against spurious claims
 
He metabolizes drugs faster than most, then feels bad for days afterward with propofol? Somethings not adding up.
 
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How many total surgeries has he had in the past? Are his X-rays really bad?

Agree with JWK....story's not adding up. Did he read about intraop awareness somewhere? Could he be munchausen?
 
was assigned to a THA yesterday. 47yo male with OA of the hip. He claims to have awareness under anesthesia on two separate occasions. Also, he finds that pain meds work but only for a short time. His dentist and pain doc tell him that they have to use more lido on him than any other pt in their practice.

Any ideas?

What's your plan?
He is most likely crazy... any chance you can get someone else to take care of him?
 
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While intraop awareness is real. It's also very uncommon. We need to know the types of surgeries patient has had in which he experienced it.

Agree with other poster about no muscle relaxant if general.

If it's a THA. Not sure spinal is best choice either. Anterior approaches surgeon often prefers general anesthesia. Depending on positioning.

Just keep it simple. Put him to sleep. Deep general if blood pressure tolerates it. If no obvious sleep apnea. Add versed intraop as well in addition to narcotics.
Our surgeons do anterior approach and greatly prefer spinal to GA. Having done a lot of total joints, I must admit neuraxial is so much better for pts, especially postop.

If he doesn't want prop, use precedex; add versed/ketamine/whatever the hell you want. I've never even met this pt and I'm already annoyed by him. This isn't a restaurant, he doesn't get a menu.
 
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The only thing that makes sense to me between the lidocaine "resistance" and the propofol "hangover" is some form of Na+ channel mutation. Lidocaine would bind poorly to this altered sodium channel rendering it less effective, while propofol binds tightly to sodium channels in the brain and leaves the hangover feeling. This doesn't really make sense with the intraop awareness issue though, unless volatiles are not working as well on this channel mutation.

As for doing this pateint's case, I would do a spinal with bupi and then scramble his brain with a combo of midaz and scopolamine IV. He won't remember the case and will be lucky if he can remember the last week.
 
The only thing that makes sense to me between the lidocaine "resistance" and the propofol "hangover" is some form of Na+ channel mutation. Lidocaine would bind poorly to this altered sodium channel rendering it less effective, while propofol binds tightly to sodium channels in the brain and leaves the hangover feeling. This doesn't really make sense with the intraop awareness issue though, unless volatiles are not working as well on this channel mutation.

As for doing this pateint's case, I would do a spinal with bupi and then scramble his brain with a combo of midaz and scopolamine IV. He won't remember the case and will be lucky if he can remember the last week.
This sounds a lot like drug-seeking behavior. "X doesn't work on me but Y works great". Sounds familiar.
 
You betcha.

If he doesn't like propofol, he can get deep gas GA-LMA with a bunch of versed (and possibly low-dose propofol, 25-50 mcg/kg/min). Inform that awareness can happen again, but that he'll be able to move (besides his vitals possibly changing). No muscle relaxation. Watch vitals like a hawk, and titrate medications (including opiates) accordingly. +/- ketamine at analgesic doses (100-200 mcg/kg/h).

P.S. The idea with the headphones and music is :claps: .
 
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Nobody would give midazolam, and more midazolam?

Then I would do everything as usually, except keeping him as deep as possible (and looking up his anesthesia records to find out what didn't work in the past for him). Also, I would clear up whether the awareness was true (intraprocedure) or not (around emergence). I would bet on the former and possibly on the fact that he is a fast metabolizer of drugs. If I were convinced of the fast metabolism, I might run him on as much propofol as he tolerates (GA-LMA), and less on gas (that's what he probably had before, and he was aware).

I diasagree with this. In my experience
with these type of patients, vapour is much more predictable. This guy will drink up the propofol like water unless you give him ketamine/midazolam or dexmed
 
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I have seen lots of patients like this. Its not just in his head. Local may not work. Be prepared for GA... These pts have high requirements for dental work and I can only imagine what they would need for a hip.

Or you might be pleasantly surprised and its all in his head
 
Agree that this sounds fishy, or that there is a thread of truly abnormal pharmacology with some overlying psych pathology going on. The red hair lends credence to his story/stories. Maybe this guy is smart and devious enough to know that redheads have higher risk for awareness.

So why try to sedate him?

Isobaric bupi spinal 15mg
Zero sedation and just hang out
 
Ok, so we have a guy that claims that the "usual" anesthesia doesn't work for him. We are to do a THA. What are our options?

First of all, this guy is either
A)crazy
B)drug seeking
C)some sort of rapid metabolized
D) drug/etoh abuser
E)possibly he has a low BP response to GA and people turn down their anesthetics on him. They obviously didn't use a BIS.

Second, we can achieve anesthesia a few different ways:
1) GETA with BIS
2)SPINAL with sedation
3) spinal with or without GA (LMA) and BIS
4)lumbosacral or 3in1 block with GA/BIS
5)epidural with or without sedation/GA
6) or basically any combination of these.

What's your plan?

Anyone want to send him for testing?
 
Ok, so we have a guy that claims that the "usual" anesthesia doesn't work for him. We are to do a THA. What are our options?

First of all, this guy is either
A)crazy
B)drug seeking
C)some sort of rapid metabolized
D) drug/etoh abuser
E)possibly he has a low BP response to GA and people turn down their anesthetics on him. They obviously didn't use a BIS.

Second, we can achieve anesthesia a few different ways:
1) GETA with BIS
2)SPINAL with sedation
3) spinal with or without GA (LMA) and BIS
4)lumbosacral or 3in1 block with GA/BIS
5)epidural with or without sedation/GA
6) or basically any combination of these.

What's your plan?

Anyone want to send him for testing?
Gonna go with c) based on history and hair colour. Redheads are a PITA. Thats a fact. And
don't forget to add increased bleeding/bruising and nausea to the mix.

I would go with anything with a BIS:)
 
500 grams of scopolamine IV. :watching:

I kid...

Lots of BIS lovers here.... anyone have a BIS of 60 and the patient be at 1.6 MAC + some benzos and narcs on board? Yeah, I've been there many times (during residency a long time ago)... which is why I rarely (if ever) use a BIS.

Always love how a NMB will decrease a BIS... :meh:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12873942

"The bispectral index (BIS) is an electroencephalographic variable intended for measuring depth of anesthesia. Electromyographic activity influences the calculation of BIS. We found that the administration of a muscle relaxant to unanesthetized volunteers decreases the bispectral index value. Thus, awareness in totally paralyzed patients cannot be excluded."

I know some really like it, and I'm all for that. I just don't find it very useful in my practice.
 
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It appears that quite a few of you tend to not believe this guy. I think this is our usual reaction to these claims. I usually just acknowledge the pts concerns and try to ease their concerns. Then I proceed as usual without any issue.

So are we saying this is the case with this guy?
 
Redheads are a PITA. Thats a fact. :)

I wonder if there is any truth to this, or is it just urban legend. We all know the stories about redheads in bed. I wonder if such folklore trickled into anesthesia.

There are not many redheads in my neck of the woods. Most here are Miss Clairol redheads, so I cannot tell from experience.

Sounds like BS to me.
 
Honestly, the pts I've had who most closely resembled this one were the ones who had used a lot of drugs (recreational, or certain prescription ones) and simply built up a big tolerance to them.
 
Alright, I'll move this along. Someone much smarter than I decided to get some genetic testing on this guy. It came back with some impressive results. This guy is a rapid metabolized via the CYP2D6 gene and a "ultra" rapid metabolized via CYP2C19.

Now what are you gonna do?
 
Alright, I'll move this along. Someone much smarter than I decided to get some genetic testing on this guy. It came back with some impressive results. This guy is a rapid metabolized via the CYP2D6 gene and a "ultra" rapid metabolized via CYP2C19.

Now what are you gonna do?
How and where do you send that test?


I would like to see him metabolize some isoflurane.
 
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Alright, I'll move this along. Someone much smarter than I decided to get some genetic testing on this guy. It came back with some impressive results. This guy is a rapid metabolized via the CYP2D6 gene and a "ultra" rapid metabolized via CYP2C19.

Now what are you gonna do?
Is there any benign drug that slows down those pathways, that could be given preop? Such as cimetidine? There must be a long list of them. I would give him some of those, especially if otherwise useful periop.
 
I wonder if there is any truth to this, or is it just urban legend. We all know the stories about redheads in bed. I wonder if such folklore trickled into anesthesia.

There are not many redheads in my neck of the woods. Most here are Miss Clairol redheads, so I cannot tell from experience.

Sounds like BS to me.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1362956/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1692342/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002817714644755

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF03018542

There are also studies contradicting this with larger Ns so who knows?
 
Looks like the authors of the first two you mentioned are fascinated by red haired women, as they did not recruit any men.

Makes you wonder.

How come red haired women get all the attention whereas red haired men are seen as a monstrosity?
 
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Alright, I'll move this along. Someone much smarter than I decided to get some genetic testing on this guy. It came back with some impressive results. This guy is a rapid metabolized via the CYP2D6 gene and a "ultra" rapid metabolized via CYP2C19.

Now what are you gonna do?
GA with a tube and desflurane, which isn't metabolized. And this is one of the rare cases I'd use a Bis on.
 
Looks like the authors of the first two you mentioned are fascinated by red haired women, as they did not recruit any men.

Makes you wonder.

How come red haired women get all the attention whereas red haired men are seen as a monstrosity?
I would like to conduct a large study to determine once and for all if blondes really do have more fun
 
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So I had a fairly lengthy discussion with this pt. At least as lengthy as I can tolerate. He seemed pretty calm and reasonable. I told him I had no magic potion for him but I had a plan. We would see how it goes and adjust on the fly if necessary.

I went with a CSE and Midaz for sedation. Told him hat he would be awake but sedated some for the case and he was fine with this. I was really curious if he would show any rapid metabolism characteristics. I suspected the spinal would be all he would need and that any rapid metabolism would not effect the spinal since it works locally. I don't have any thing to confirm this theory though. I wanted the epidural as a back up if needed.

In the OR, I placed the CSE and dosed the spinal with 15mg isobaric bupiv and 200mcg dilaudid. He got 5 mg versed for this and he became sedated. Laid him down and we began to place the foley and position him. The spinal seemed to take about 5 minutes to setup but I got a good block and we proceeded as usual. Within 5 minutes he was as if I had given him no sedation. So I gave more which worked but didn't last as long as expected. He got 20mg of versed for the entire case and remembers most of the case which was fine and we had discussed preop.

When the surgeon made incision the pt looked up at me and said, "they're cutting on me?" I asked if it hurt and he said it sort of burned a bit. So I dosed the epidural with 2% lido. Once past the skin he was fine. No pain or feeling. We chatted throughout the case and all was good. Towards the end they put a femoral retractor in and he felt it. I gave more in the epidural and all was good again. At the end I gave .25% Marcaine I the epidural and pulled it. I could have left it but the pt was fine with pain meds as long as we gave them more frequently and he would get DVT prophylaxis. I saw him the next day and he was extremely pleased with the approach. He remembered a lot of the case but not everything. Pain was well controlled post op as well.

So those that want to use volatile agent on this guy, why? What makes you think it would work this time if it didn't work in the past? Can anyone explain how the P450 system works when volatile is used? How about the spinal I did? It seemed to wear off rather fast as well. I can't explain that one. I'm damn glad I had the epidural as back up tho. Maybe it was just the isobaric marcaine. I've seen this stuff come on slow but it lasts longer usually. Maybe it wasn't wearing off but wasn't fully active yet, I have no clue.

Bottom line is we have a very happy pt and therefore, a very happy surgeon as well. Surgeon wanted me to just put him to sleep but said, it's your call I trust you.
 
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