Academic Dishonesty and Potential Acceptence

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dr.hill13

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Hello, I know this has been brought up in similar threads with similar responses, but I feel as though no one's situation is close enough to mine for me to go off of.

I received an academic dishonesty report, "for collaborating with other student during a final exam." I received a 0 in the 4 credit class (gen ed requirement). It was an online class, and someone started a group chat during the final exam. I provided an answer to a fellow student. I knew what I did was wrong and immediately closed out of it and did my own exam. My professor got hold of the facebook group chat and wrote us all up for dishonesty. I met with her and the director apologizing for any disrespect towards them or the course. I took full responsibility. I knew what I did was wrong; I am not a cheater. I pride myself on my own work.

My science GPA is currently a 3.62. My cumulative sits at a disappointing 3.24 ever since receiving the report. I have yet to take the MCAT. I am CNA certified with near 1,000 hours of direct patient care. I am going with the Global Medical Brigades to Honduras this year over spring break. I have recommendation letters from professors and nurses I worked with in the field. I am meeting with the professor that gave me the report to see if she will write me one. She told me that if she could punish some more than others she would. She also said she thinks I have characteristics of a person who will succeed in the medical field.

Basically, I want to know how much this is going to kill my chances and how to approach it in the best possible manner. I am obviously taking full responsibility for it, and I have learned a lot from the situation. How do I get the best possible outcome of a really horrible circumstance?

Any advice whatsoever is welcomed.
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I mean you can try and explain it and hope the AdComs understand, but really I think what you need is a significant amount of time to pass between the date of the incident and your application in which you demonstrate responsibility and honesty in your activities.
 
Be glad your school doesn't have a real honor code or you'd be out on your arse.
I don't think you can do anything at all. You cheated, got caught, and now you have your big red flag. Some places will undoubtedly reject you without much thought, others may give you a second chance.
I think of dishonesty like a roach. If you see one, there are many more around.
If you get accepted, nobody will care anymore as they don't look at undergrad transcripts for residency/ fellowship, etc.
 
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whatever5 said:
I mean you can try and explain it and hope the AdComs understand, but really I think what you need is a significant amount of time to pass between the date of the incident and your application in which you demonstrate responsibility and honesty in your activities.
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It happened my fall semester of my sophomore year. I am trying to avoid taking time off between undergraduate and medical school. However, medical school is my only plan because it is all I have ever wanted to do. So, if I have to take post-bac courses and reapply, I will.
 
If the professor involved writes you a very-positive letter of support specifically addressing the situation you might have a chance, but otherwise, you need more time between the incident and an application attempt, without additional red flags. Perhaps you might consider adding a minor or another major so you can stay in school longer and raise your not-very competitive cGPA. After that, maybe a masters degree. Even with all that, your chances will be low.
 
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It was an online class, and someone started a group chat during the final exam. I provided an answer to a fellow student
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This sounds really difficult to 'spin' positively. If this was something like a 5% of your total grade online homework assignment, then maybe the prof was over-reacting. But since its a final I think it will be tougher.

I think your best bet would be to talk to that professor and ask for some sort of letter. Another point... so you say that the professor 'wrote up' the whole class group??? And everyone got 0/4. That is crazy.
 
In the same sentence you said you knew what you were doing AND you say you're not a cheater. That won't jive well.

Now lets be honest about the rest. For MD you are both low gpa and you have a terrible IA. This is no forgetting to cite the journal page situation. Automatic reject. No need to waste time there.

Osteopathic is fine in numbers, but you are still held to high moral standards. Honestly, unless a minimum of 5 years have passed since undergrad and have an amazing EC like teach for America, I see you as auto reject. Keep in mind by those 5 years the numbers for schools will have gone up.

Plan for a non-traditional route at best and an entirely new career at worst.
 
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I unfortunately don't have the option to stay in school as long as I please. I'm a first generation from a lower/middle class family. I'm lucky I'm even going to college and getting an education. I have been informed of multiple people getting into medical school with dishonesty reports against them. They said that they were more concerned on how they responded/handled the situation and what they learned from it.
 
I concur with my young colleague. You probably get an interview at my school, because we do'y pre-screen. Then you would be rejected. Dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students, ad my clinical colleagues take academic dishonesty very seriously.

That said, there are people who believe in redemption. A long academic interval of exemplary behavior might do you well for the future, but not now.


AlbinoHawk DO said:
In the same sentence you said you knew what you were doing AND you say you're not a cheater. That won't jive well.

Now lets be honest about the rest. For MD you are both low gpa and you have a terrible IA. This is no forgetting to cite the journal page situation. Automatic reject. No need to waste time there.

Osteopathic is fine in numbers, but you are still held to high moral standards. Honestly, unless a minimum of 5 years have passed since undergrad and have an amazing EC like teach for America, I see you as auto reject. Keep in mind by those 5 years the numbers for schools will have gone up.

Plan for a non-traditional route at best and an entirely new career at worst.
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dr.hill13 said:
I unfortunately don't have the option to stay in school as long as I please. I'm a first generation from a lower/middle class family. I'm lucky I'm even going to college and getting an education. I have been informed of multiple people getting into medical school with dishonesty reports against them. They said that they were more concerned on how they responded/handled the situation and what they learned from it.
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You have been informed? Unless you've spoken to adcom and the IA you have is similar to applicants they took in the past, I'd be cautious about how to proceed. Responses here seem to mainly come from ADCOM and med students. None of us get any benefit from you not trying, so take seriously what you heard here.
 
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dr.hill13 said:
It happened my fall semester of my sophomore year. I am trying to avoid taking time off between undergraduate and medical school. However, medical school is my only plan because it is all I have ever wanted to do. So, if I have to take post-bac courses and reapply, I will.
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I do not think you should assume you will not get into medical school. You should still take the MCAT, attempt to get a supportive letter from the professor, and try to improve your application, but you should do so aware that even if you do everything right for the duration of your undergraduate career, you might not get in.

You know you are not a strong candidate for medical schools because of your GPA and IA, but there are more options in life than medical school. I would highly suggest you explore career options that your degree(or a degree you could switch to with the time you have left) could permit you.

I am big on second chances, but I am not on an ADCOM. Be realistic about your future and develop a backup plan.
 
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It's amazing how one little mistake can screw you over so badly. Best of luck OP
 
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First of all does it appear on your record? Make sure it does. I think the best thing to do is to contact an adviser or the admissions head for the medical schools you want to apply to. I come from a low/middle class family from Honduras and i feel your pain. We dont have the time to mess around and take a few years off. Honesty is the best route, we're humans and we all make mistakes. In my case I was completely honest and even though its not med school, I was still accepted into pharmacy school (top program). In your application try to explain how you grew from that situation and how you know that a little act of dishonesty can affect your whole life and that you wont make any bad choices once in your profession.
 
Cookiecatfromouterspace said:
First of all does it appear on your record? Make sure it does. I think the best thing to do is to contact an adviser or the admissions head for the medical schools you want to apply to. I come from a low/middle class family from Honduras and i feel your pain. We dont have the time to mess around and take a few years off. Honesty is the best route, we're humans and we all make mistakes. In my case I was completely honest and even though its not med school, I was still accepted into pharmacy school (top program). In your application try to explain how you grew from that situation and how you know that a little act of dishonesty can affect your whole life and that you wont make any bad choices once in your profession.
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I appreciate you not automatically jumping down my throat about it. The report doesn't physically show up on my records; however, the 0 in a 4 credit class does.
I do not want to lie for 2 reasons. First, the whole thing about academic dishonesty is given due to 'dishonest' behavior, and after that whole experience I do not want to lie to get ahead because I do value my achievements (and if the school were to find out, hell yeah I'm out of the running for lying about lying). And I know it's the Catholic School in me, but the act of omission is still considered lying. For two, if I do lie, how do I explain my 0 in that class given that I've never received below a 3.0 in any course or explain my extremely low cGPA due to the 0?

I have learned a lot from the report. Even when I provided information rather than receiving it or altering it like most students with academic dishonesty reports, it was a knock in the ass for lack of a better term. I am an extremely helpful person, and my mistake in this situation was mistaking helpfulness for cheating. I am one of those crazy people that believe if you work hard, it will pay off. That person didn't deserve the grade they would have received with my help had the group not gotten caught. If that person was pre-med and went onto medical school, they would probably cheat their way through that, and then carry that into their practice which is dangerous for everyone involved. I'm not sure if that is the right way to look at it, but those are my thoughts on it.

That's why I came here, to maybe get constructive criticism rather than destructive, "just quit now."
 
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dr.hill13 said:
I appreciate you not automatically jumping down my throat about it. The report doesn't physically show up on my records; however, the 0 in a 4 credit class does.
I do not want to lie for 2 reasons. First, the whole thing about academic dishonesty is given due to 'dishonest' behavior, and after that whole experience I do not want to lie to get ahead because I do value my achievements (and if the school were to find out, hell yeah I'm out of the running for lying about lying). And I know it's the Catholic School in me, but the act of omission is still considered lying. For two, if I do lie, how do I explain my 0 in that class given that I've never received below a 3.0 in any course or explain my extremely low cGPA due to the 0?

I have learned a lot from the report. Even when I provided information rather than receiving it or altering it like most students with academic dishonesty reports, it was a knock in the ass for lack of a better term. I am an extremely helpful person, and my mistake in this situation was mistaking helpfulness for cheating. I am one of those crazy people that believe if you work hard, it will pay off. That person didn't deserve the grade they would have received with my help had the group not gotten caught. If that person was pre-med and went onto medical school, they would probably cheat their way through that, and then carry that into their practice which is dangerous for everyone involved. I'm not sure if that is the right way to look at it, but those are my thoughts on it.

That's why I came here, to maybe get constructive criticism rather than destructive, "just quit now."
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Same thing I went through when applying to pharmacy. A lot of people are going to tell you to omit/lie about it and a lot of people, as you can see, are going to try and tell you to not even bother in applying. In my case I'm a person of strong will and moral integrity and tell you that if you can just be honest. It doesnt hurt to apply and if you dont get in, but you really want to go to med school then you will find a way even in adverse situations. It sucks that something like that has such huge implications. Im sure that there are doctors, lawyers, politicians, judges who have committed some type of dishonesty, the difference is that they weren't caught. Keep your head up, beast out on the MCAT, and like i said find a good way to explain the situation.
 
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dr.hill13 said:
I am meeting with the professor that gave me the report to see if she will write me one. She told me that if she could punish some more than others she would. She also said she thinks I have characteristics of a person who will succeed in the medical field.
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Please let us know the results of your meeting with the Professor.
 
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To the OP, I do not have experience with medical school adcoms, nor do I have much experience with the situation you describe. However, based on past experience in other fields and on what I've heard anecdotally, I wouldn't count your dream of being a doctor out by a long-shot. Regarding the IA itself, certainly don't lie about it. THAT will most assuredly sink your chances.

Instead, continue to reflect on it and really evaluate: what did you do? why did you do it? would you do something similar again? how has it impacted your view of what cheating entails? what mechanisms do you think are appropriate to use when deciding between competing interest i.e. peer pressure vs. a more absolute moral reasoning vs. your own self-interest?

If you can explain what happened in a really mature, thoughtful, and sincere way, this will not be the sole reason you don't get into medical school. That's not to say that it won't be a barrier and frankly it may well simply screen you out of certain schools, but especially if you can work with the professor/administration to craft this into a story of your personal growth, I think you'll be fine with the caveat that you'll still need a strong GPA, MCAT, LoRs, etc...

I should also add that if this occurred your sophomore fall, then it'll be a fairly long time ago by the time you're applying, especially if you take a couple years to work or do something after graduating.
 
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Catalystik said:
Please let us know the results of your meeting with the Professor.
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UPDATE: I met with my professor. She advocated for the AI to be removed from my record prior to graduation. Her superior agreed to push forward with that motion; however, the ombudsman is requesting it remain on my record until graduation. She stated,
"So it looks like the best approach is for me to write a letter of support for you. If you can find an example of a strong letter as an example, then I think it will help me with the points and the language that could best help you. I can change the content so it supports your situation, but since this is such a big deal in your admissions process, it might be good to base the letter on one that is already classified as "strong". Do you think you can find a letter of this type on one of the writing sites or on the web? Just to be clear, though, I'm happy to provide the letter for you."
Do you have any advice for the direction she should take the letter? Any thoughts would be helpful!
 
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dr.hill13 said:
UPDATE: I met with my professor. She advocated for the AI to be removed from my record prior to graduation. Her superior agreed to push forward with that motion; however, the ombudsman is requesting it remain on my record until graduation. She stated,
"So it looks like the best approach is for me to write a letter of support for you. If you can find an example of a strong letter as an example, then I think it will help me with the points and the language that could best help you. I can change the content so it supports your situation, but since this is such a big deal in your admissions process, it might be good to base the letter on one that is already classified as "strong". Do you think you can find a letter of this type on one of the writing sites or on the web? Just to be clear, though, I'm happy to provide the letter for you."
Do you have any advice for the direction she should take the letter? Any thoughts would be helpful!
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I think that if you can get it off the record, that would really help you.
 
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She cannot get it off my record, but she is willing to write me a letter of recommendation. She is asking about how to write it/what to include in it
 
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dr.hill13 said:
UPDATE: I met with my professor. She advocated for the AI to be removed from my record prior to graduation. Her superior agreed to push forward with that motion; however, the ombudsman is requesting it remain on my record until graduation. She stated,
"So it looks like the best approach is for me to write a letter of support for you. If you can find an example of a strong letter as an example, then I think it will help me with the points and the language that could best help you. I can change the content so it supports your situation, but since this is such a big deal in your admissions process, it might be good to base the letter on one that is already classified as "strong". Do you think you can find a letter of this type on one of the writing sites or on the web? Just to be clear, though, I'm happy to provide the letter for you."
Do you have any advice for the direction she should take the letter? Any thoughts would be helpful!
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The type of letter you need is rarely written and since students waive their rights to see them they aren't exactly thick on the ground to use as examples. I encourage you to try to find an example, regardless. For general purposes, here is a link to the AMCAS LOR Guideline, in case it might be of help: https://www.aamc.org/download/332578/data/lettersguidelinesbrochure.pdf
 
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dr.hill13 said:
UPDATE: I met with my professor. She advocated for the AI to be removed from my record prior to graduation. Her superior agreed to push forward with that motion; however, the ombudsman is requesting it remain on my record until graduation. She stated,
"So it looks like the best approach is for me to write a letter of support for you. If you can find an example of a strong letter as an example, then I think it will help me with the points and the language that could best help you. I can change the content so it supports your situation, but since this is such a big deal in your admissions process, it might be good to base the letter on one that is already classified as "strong". Do you think you can find a letter of this type on one of the writing sites or on the web? Just to be clear, though, I'm happy to provide the letter for you."
Do you have any advice for the direction she should take the letter? Any thoughts would be helpful!
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Could you wait until after graduation to apply for medicine? it would make life easier
 
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AlbinoHawk DO said:
Because the AMCAS/AACOMAS rules say so.
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But how would amcas find out if it is expunged? Why would he want to draw attention to the matter?

Now, if this is going to stay on the record, I would understand he needs to report it. But if the school gives the ok, why draw attention to it?
 
GypsyHummus said:
But how would amcas find out if it is expunged? Why would he want to draw attention to the matter?

Now, if this is going to stay on the record, I would understand he needs to report it. But if the school gives the ok, why draw attention to it?
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Sometimes, letter writers or others mention the "problem" in order to help explain the single bad grade (just to be helpful). There are many ways in which such IA's come to light and if OP doesn't address them in a forthright fashion (as required by AAMC and AACOMAS), he's toast.
 
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gyngyn said:
Sometimes, letter writers or others mention the "problem" in order to help explain the single bad grade (just to be helpful). There are many ways in which such IA's come to light and if OP doesn't address them in a forthright fashion (as required by AAMC and AACOMAS), he's toast.
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Gyngyn, you said it yourself this guy wouldn't make it past screeners at your school anyway, and people are saying he is toast as is, why not gamble it?

How would medical schools know about an IA that would be expunged as long as a writer didn't bring it to the attention in the letter? Do schools call the Dean's Offices? Look on transcripts? Furthermore, say the person doesn't ask for a writer that would know about the incident, how would the schools know about it?

One issue as to why the OP would need to show the IA is because he got an F in the class. That I would think would be a bit more suspicious to ADCOMs than someone getting caught and merely being nocked down a letter grade, say from a B to C.
 
GypsyHummus said:
Gyngyn, you said it yourself this guy wouldn't make it past screeners at your school anyway, and people are saying he is toast as is, why not gamble it?

How would medical schools know about an IA that would be expunged as long as a writer didn't bring it to the attention in the letter? Do schools call the Dean's Offices? Look on transcripts? Furthermore, say the person doesn't ask for a writer that would know about the incident, how would the schools know about it?

One issue as to why the OP would need to show the IA is because he got an F in the class. That I would think would be a bit more suspicious to ADCOMs than someone getting caught and merely being nocked down a letter grade, say from a B to C.
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The fact that he won't make it past the screeners at my school has nothing to do with the general inadvisability of violating AMCAS mandates. If he were to be discovered (by any of the means you mentioned and many more) he could be suspended or expelled, thus forfeiting even more time, money and honor.

If he discloses, at least he gets to give an explanation in his own words. No disclosure: confirmation of lack of integrity.
 
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First off, I'm a girl haha Back to business, I plan on reporting it. Lying does no good for anyone. The concern about the report in the first place is my integrity and honesty as a person. Even if no one were to find out, I made the mistake and will take responsibility for that horrendous mistake.
I'm just wondering if there is anything I should have my professor specifically address. I know she has written LOR before, and she has told me many times how she will do everything she can to get me where I want to go.
 
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gyngyn said:
The fact that he won't make it past the screeners at my school has nothing to do with the general inadvisability of violating AMCAS mandates. If he were to be discovered (by any of the means you mentioned and many more) he could be suspended or expelled, thus forfeiting even more time, money and honor.

If he discloses, at least he gets to give an explanation in his own words. No disclosure: confirmation of lack of integrity.
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Do you have any advice moving forward? I know that my situation is not ideal and that you do not see it as a feasible option, but as far as the letter writing and what she should include.
 
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dr.hill13 said:
Do you have any advice moving forward? I know that my situation is not ideal and that you do not see it as a feasible option, but as far as the letter writing and what she should include.
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just my 2 cents as im no adcom
this should be a character letter

she should talk about you in a way that explains that you do have integrity
if she truly believes and recommends you, then somewhere on the letter she should say that this momentary lapse in judgement or this one mistake that you have thoroughly learned from and aren't bound to repeat should not be counted against you and that she would recommend you to any program willing to discuss details of what happened
 
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GypsyHummus said:
If it is expunged after graduation, why would he need to report it?
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I would think the professor writing the letter of support would mention it in the letter.


OP I'm not sure where you will find a sample letter in support of ignoring an Academic Dishonesty. May be you should just give the professor a copy of your CV and let her take it from there. I have written lots of letters of recommendation and I wouldn't even know where to begin with what you need.

Sent from my KFOT using Tapatalk 2
 
dr.hill13 said:
Do you have any advice moving forward? I know that my situation is not ideal and that you do not see it as a feasible option, but as far as the letter writing and what she should include.
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I can only speak for the institution I represent. There is always a possibility that another school would view this differently. I do not know what words would move them.
 
gyngyn said:
I can only speak for the institution I represent. There is always a possibility that another school would view this differently. I do not know what words would move them.
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I have received her letter of recommendation, would you mind reading part it to see if you think there is anything she should add?
 
Catalystik said:
Please let us know the results of your meeting with the Professor.
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I posted my results from the meeting. I was wondering if you would be willing to read the letter as well and tell me what you think.
 
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Catalystik said:
Where did you post it? I didn't see anything in the earlier thread posts.
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I apologize for that, I misread the thread. You did reply; however, I know have her LOR and am wondering if it changes anything. When I explain my experience, I will also reference the LOR so that the ADCOMs now it's there before my secondary application if that makes sense. If I PM you the LOR, would you be willing to read it and tell me if it would help me at all?
 
Catalystik said:
I thought there might have been new information. OP, if you want to post the letter here, that's fine. You could remove it again later, if you prefer. If you don't wish to post publicly, my PM box is closed, but others might be willing to give a private opinion.
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Dear Sir or Madam:

It is a pleasure for me to write this letter of recommendation for Sally, who was my student in __(course)___ during Fall Semester 2012. Sally's story is not a traditional one of achievement of a high course grade or contribution of inspirational revelations about the topic, but rather, her behavior over the past year and a half revealed exceptional moral character and Sally's integrity as a person. As a participant in an online class that supported social interaction among class members, Sally was part of an online study group. Unfortunately, she was drawn into an online session during an exam. Because of stringent university guidelines related to academic integrity, Sally was required to complete a course on academic integrity and also required to repeat the course.

I personally met with Sally along with the Chair of _(course department)_, after this incident and was genuinely touched by her immediate acceptance of accountability and expression of regret for having been a part of the online study group. This occurred in December 2012. Since that time, I’ve come to learn more about Sally's history, passions, goals and morals. Through this process, I’ve learned that Sally has a heart to help people. She is a hard-working student who spends endless hours reviewing material to maximize her understanding and achieve mastery in her studies in preparation for medical school.

Sally was assured that this incident would be dropped from her record if she completed her undergraduate studies without incident. Sally's performance since then has been exceptional and she has maintained regular contact with ___(chair of course department)__ and me during the past year and a half. Now, as she is on the verge of successfully completing her undergraduate studies, we realize that the incident from the Fall 2012 cannot be released from her record until after graduation in May 2014. In her continued effort to maintain accountability and integrity, Sally wishes to report the incident from the Fall 2012 along with my letter of explanation and recommendation for Sally's acceptance into medical school.

I’ve come to learn that Sally is a careful and creative thinker with an eye for details and a devotion to logic, which serves her well both in the sciences and outside them. She has the terrific ability to draw on her own experience and observations to develop thoughtful opinions on a variety of issues. Sally already knew she wanted to complete medical school when she enrolled in my course, but this did not diminish her intellectual curiosity about non-related topics that we covered. Sally immersed herself in both evolutionary theory and also in brain function and behavior.

Sally's regular contributions to online discussions provided insight both for her peers and for me as an instructor. She was also invaluable in small-group interaction with her peers. In addition, Sally was devoted to her studies and willing to invest the time and energy needed to succeed.

I offer my recommendation for Sally's acceptance into medical school without reservation. If I can provide additional information to support Sally, then I am happy to do so.
 
That letter sounds pretty decent to me. I think it's very helpful to have such a letter from the professor in whose class you cheated.
 
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After the first paragraph, it's a terrific letter. However, in the first paragraph, I'd prefer to have seen more specifics about what happened during the on-line group discussion during the test. You could just as well have been the person asking for a test answer. Could she perhaps state in truth that group collaboration was encouraged but never specifically prohibited during test-taking?
 
One comment about the rec letter--I know you'll explain the specific circumstances in your AMCAS, but it would help, I think, for the professor to say explicitly that you gave another student a single answer. Right now, it's vague, and could be interpreted as you giving multiple answers, or even taking answers from others.
 
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@Catalystik, I am currently in my junior year and have been accused of cheating on a 5% homework assignment in a history class I took last quarter. I spoke with the professor and he said that he was willing to drop the charges but I never got it in writing. The girl and I met with the dean recently and she thought that the accusation would be dropped as well. However, the professor has stopped responding and if he does not respond by the end of this week, it goes to review (in which case, we more than likely will get sanctioned). I've tried looking for the professor everywhere but he's not teaching this quarter and is not on campus often. I sent him an email but he has not been responsive. If this does go through, what are my options?
 
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