Academic Dishonesty

[jl lin]

I am no expert on AACOMAS and @Goro should weigh in but to the question:
have you ever been disciplined for student conduct violations by any college or school? if so, provide an explanation seems to be the place to say that you were disciplined for alleged cheating and provide the explanation in your own words. See if the adcoms believe what the honor board and other did not.

If you are going with the "if it is not on my record, I guess I don't have to report it" argument, you are proving that when it is in your best interest, you are prepared to hide the facts.

What if, however, the academic dishonesty is removed through mediation? If it is removed, the person is not lying about it; b/c it is not something for which he/she has been found guilty. That is what I am saying.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Psai]

why are you even talking about a judge? this is an academic issue concerning a student and their school. the choice of putting an institutional action on someone's record or expunging it is determined by the school. you don't know what the hell you're talking about and yet every one of your posts is a treatise about nonsense.

drop the victim shtick, no one cares if you're ignoring them or not and you're not being persecuted. everyone just thinks you are incredibly annoying with extensive opinions about things you don't know anything about.

 

[jl lin]

why are you even talking about a judge? this is an academic issue concerning a student and their school. the choice of putting an institutional action on someone's record or expunging it is determined by the school. you don't know what the hell you're talking about and yet every one of your posts is a treatise about nonsense.

drop the victim shtick, no one cares if you're ignoring them or not and you're not a victim.

Point: Already addressed the why to this. Links and such are given above. Yes one may be able to seek outside remedy AFTER going through carefully all the channels within. Don't comment if you don't want to read. It's fine if you don't, but don't instigate just to instigate.


Point: Don't address people you ignore openly through others' replies in order to attempt to flame them. That was the point. If you are ignoring them, then carry on and ignore them fully. Otherwise it is BS.

 

[Planes2Doc]

When I was in undergrad, I was in a small class that had an "individual project," which I believe was worth about 3% of the class grade. Half of my class worked together, and were caught. They received a zero on the assignment, but the professor said that this was enough punishment, and it was never pursued further. Also, aside from the 3% loss of the grade, nothing else was impacted. In this case, I don't think people mentioned it later on. I still keep in touch on Facebook with two people that were in that class with me, and they swept it under the rug. Based on what I have read from IA/Academic Dishonesty threads, if it stays within the classroom, then it's not technically an IA. You can get away based on it being a loophole.

OP, you need to very carefully look into this. If there is any way it can get through any loopholes, then use them. Also, you can choose to be dishonest with you want on your application, especially if there is no record left of the IA. At the end of the day, it's you that needs to sleep at night, not us.

Something I find kind of interesting is the level of security for our exams at school. We need to take them in a testing center, which includes dividers, cameras, and proctors. This was way beyond anything I have seen when taking exams during undergrad. The most I've ever seen were multiple proctors in the large lecture hall, with one or two seats between each student. Oh, and just wait until you need to take the boards at Prometric. You're treated like a criminal! Every time you leave the room they need you to pull out your pockets and then wave the wand over you. If future physicians are considered to be so honest and held to such a high standard, then why are such security precautions put in place? Why aren't more medical schools utilizing the honor system for exams?

 

[jl lin]

Something I find kind of interesting is the level of security for our exams at school. We need to take them in a testing center, which includes dividers, cameras, and proctors. This was way beyond anything I have seen when taking exams during undergrad. The most I've ever seen were multiple proctors in the large lecture hall, with one or two seats between each student. Oh, and just wait until you need to take the boards at Prometric. You're treated like a criminal! Every time you leave the room they need you to pull out your pockets and then wave the wand over you. If future physicians are considered to be so honest and held to such a high standard, then why are such security precautions put in place? Why aren't more medical schools utilizing the honor system for exams?

I like people that look for solutions. Yes, perhaps that would be helpful to everyone.

I will say that I have attended/attend big schools and haven't had a problem. Perhaps it is b/c I keep my head down and forge through. It's a kind of Zen-like thing, where you become one with the test.
But you do feel at times like you can't stretch and be human, and if it's a long exam, that's not cool either.

 

[Psai]

Point: Already addressed the why to this. Links and such are given above. Yes one may be able to seek outside remedy AFTER going through carefully all the channels within. Don't comment if you don't want to read. It's fine if you don't, but don't instigate just to instigate.


Point: Don't address people you ignore openly through others' replies in order to attempt to flame them. That was the point. If you are ignoring them, then carry on and ignore them fully. Otherwise it is BS.

Even if something is expunged, you still have to report it. Don't comment if you don't want to continue spreading nonsense

 

[jl lin]

Even if something is expunged, you still have to report it

NO! Not this AGAIN! Nice try. If you are nice to me, I might give you some reputable lawyers' numbers that will help you with this and/or help you to understand this. Otherwise, it's done. Enough already.

You can pm me about it.

Updated just for you.

 

[Psai]

I'm already in medical school. I don't have anything to expunge. AMCAS asks for everything, including things that were expunged.

 

[jl lin]

I'm already in medical school. I don't have anything to expunge. AMCAS asks for everything, including things that were expunged.

See reply above.

 

[Psai]

I understand it very well and without a need for an appeal to authority. Stop ruining threads.

 

[jl lin]

So, you want to argue then? It will not make you correct in doing so. Like your avatar, it will be like going around in circles. Since you are already in MS, you have no need to concern yourself about it, at least for now.

Alas, to argue on this would mean violating TOS on SDN (Staying off topic, etc). If you would like to discuss it openly, start a separate thread on it.

 

[LizzyM]

If future physicians are considered to be so honest and held to such a high standard, then why are such security precautions put in place? Why aren't more medical schools utilizing the honor system for exams?

Because medical schools sometimes admit applicants who were dishonest and lied about never having had a IA as well as those who were so good at cheating in college that they were never caught.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

So, you want to argue then? It will not make you correct in doing so. Like your avatar, it will be like going around in circles. Since you are already in MS, you have no need to concern yourself about it, at least for now.

Alas, to argue on this would mean violating TOS on SDN (Staying off topic, etc). If you would like to discuss it openly, start a separate thread on it.

you do need to report it on amcas. what are you accusing him of being incorrect about?

 

[jl lin]

you do need to report it on amcas. what are you accusing him of being incorrect about?

In reply:

, to argue on this would mean violating TOS on SDN (Staying off topic, etc). If you would like to discuss it openly, start a separate thread on it.

 

[Goro]

I forgot that I indeed wanted to respond to the OP on this, many thanks for the reminder, colleague.

To OP, what part of this don't you understand??

DO schools aren't going to give you a pass on this; at my school, because we don't pre-screen (because the mandate of the wily old Admissions Dean is different from that of the faculty on the Adcom), you'd get an interview, but it would be followed by a rejection.

Again, the only salvation is years of exemplary behavior, owning the transgression and the hope that your interviewer is a believer in redemption.

What my learned colleague has mentioned in red is quite telling.

I am no expert on AACOMAS and @Goro should weigh in but to the question:
have you ever been disciplined for student conduct violations by any college or school? if so, provide an explanation seems to be the place to say that you were disciplined for alleged cheating and provide the explanation in your own words. See if the adcoms believe what the honor board and other did not.

If you are going with the "if it is not on my record, I guess I don't have to report it" argument, you are proving that when it is in your best interest, you are prepared to hide the facts.

 

[jl lin]

I will reiterate w/ post 102.

The OP has moved on:

I think this is getting way out of hand. I have a pretty good idea of what needs to be done. I appreciate all yours input in this matter! Thanks a lot

 

[LizzyM]

What if, however, the academic dishonesty is removed through mediation? If it is removed, the person is not lying about it; b/c it is not something for which he/she has been found guilty. That is what I am saying.

I am going to try to write this without using legal lingo because what we are talking about here is not criminal law or even civil law but institutional action involving school rules.

There is a difference between 1) being accused and then found not to have committed the offense either straight away or on appeal and 2) being accused, have a determination made that you committed the offense and then had the finding wiped from your record as a way of providing a "clean slate". The circumstances that lead to the institutional action and then having it wiped from the record must still be reported through AMCAS.

In the first instance, there is nothing to report as the school did not punish the student (there is no Institutional Action). In the second instance, the student had an institutional action against him/her and then the institution took another action which should be reported as well.

 

[DokterMom]

I forgot that I indeed wanted to respond to the OP on this, many thanks for the reminder, colleague.

To OP, what part of this don't you understand??

DO schools aren't going to give you a pass on this; at my school, because we don't pre-screen (because the mandate of the wily old Admissions Dean is different from that of the faculty on the Adcom), you'd get an interview, but it would be followed by a rejection.

Again, the only salvation is years of exemplary behavior, owning the transgression and the hope that your interviewer is a believer in redemption.

What my learned colleague has mentioned in red is quite telling.

@fazd5 - Own the transgression of being a nervous test-taker who spent too much time nervously looking around. You did that. To the point where more than one of your exam proctors noticed it and agreed that in their opinions, you were cheating. You can continue to deny that you actually were cheating until the end of time, and several of your proctors will continue to believe their perceptions of what it is that they saw. (The one you say exaggerated may know s/he exaggerated.) But at the end of the day, you were the recipient of an IA for cheating on a test, and even an expungement can't undo that.

To maximize your chances of being able to practice as a physician, admit to the IA, and admit to the 'crime' of nervously looking around and fidgeting to the extent that you were wrongly accused of cheating. That's your story - stick to it.

But lie about it now, and if you ever get caught -- which you very well may -- and you'll not only not be a physician, but you'll also be out several hundrend thousand dollars. And you will have cheated. And been caught -- now twice.

 

[jl lin]

As I said earlier, as w/marriages that wait too long to get help, this appears to be the situation here. I agree w/ candbgirl. I would not have let it get so far that I felt forced into a corner and just went along with the school if I knew darn well I was innocent. An attorney can advise you on the outside and help you go through the school’s due process—if indeed theirs is truly fair and thorough. Certainly the school has its board of attorneys for advisement. Like HR, they are there to serve the school first and foremost.

Also, public schools have to follow Constitutional guidelines. I don't know how hard and the manner in which OP fought this. But w/o the right support and resources, I can also understand how OP felt that OP had to do what s/he had to do. (See below.)

[Procedural Protections in Disciplinary Cases

University officials often say that since college disciplinary proceedings are “educational” rather than punitive, students in such proceedings are not entitled to procedural protections. The law, however, is clear that protections of due process are in fact required for disciplinary hearings at public universities.

This is the case because, as noted above, people are entitled to due process rights whenever they have what are known as “liberty” or “property” interests at stake. Both interests are most certainly at stake in university disciplinary hearings.]
https://www.thefire.org/fire-guides...fair-procedure-on-campus-full-text/#Contents3

My issue is with administrative systems that pretty much do whatever the hell they want b/c THEY CAN and that use the intimidation factor. A thousand percent of the time, they may get away w it; but eventually someone says, "No. Enough." Indeed students should read the student handbooks. Many of us would say, "I am not a cheater, so I can skip over their procedures and processes in this regard. " Most people don’t go in thinking they may be misunderstood or get screwed over for one reason or another. They don’t think they might ever be falsely accused of something. Just like people don’t think they will ever have to deal w/ accidents or violent acts against them.

Yes. Indeed, her/his only option at this time may be to "stick with her/ his story" as you say. But making a charge against someone's honor is no longer serious business, and I definitely feel like that is a serious matter.

I get it. W/o balanced guidance, s/he took the lesser plea, so to speak, and now he/she is probably stuck with it. I suppose s/he would have a hard time getting a lawyer to file suit claiming that s/he was forced or put under duress to follow the plan; but who knows? Maybe there is a discriminatory component here?

There is a reason why organizations that focus on educational rights exist.

And yes. I know that cheating has been growing on college campuses, and it is a serious problem. This doesn't excuse neglecting the need to ensure that students' rights and due process is followed.

The bigger issue to me here is can administrations and students truly see both sides both individually and globally?