Active duty enlisted: HPSP or USU?

[a gray man]

Folks, I am an active duty enlisted soldier with 13 years TIS and numerous combat deployments. I will either be matriculating to USU or a civilian school using HPSP this fall. I have read all the threads on mil med/USU/HPSP and understand the sentiment. My question for all the mil docs is: is the state of mil med so bad that I should attend a civilian school using HPSP as opposed to going to USU just so I can retire three years earlier?

I will be getting a mil retirement either way but: This would mean a few hundred thousand of lost dollars and a huge lifestyle change during school if I go HPSP and $700,000-$800,000 in lost retirement benefits assuming I live for thirty years post retirement.

Thoughts?

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[colbgw02]

I'd probably just go to USUHS. For someone like you, who's pot committed for retirement and well informed about the military, I wouldn't leave those USUHS years on the table. Three years gets you seven - tough to beat that.

 

[DeadCactus]

Is the Navy still doing the program where you're an E-5 during medical school and then have an HPSP-like commitment?

 

[a gray man]

I'd probably just go to USUHS. For someone like you, who's pot committed for retirement and well informed about the military, I wouldn't leave those USUHS years on the table. Three years gets you seven - tough to beat that.

That's the way I am leaning although I have been in long enough to know the value of freedom and the drain of beaurocracy

 

[Gastrapathy]

Is HSCP an option? Do you have a specialty with a long residency in mind? What about going to work for the gubment as a civilian and buying your FERS years?

 

[Gastrapathy]

Also. I think you have to do 10 to retire as an officer.

 

[a gray man]

Is HSCP an option? Do you have a specialty with a long residency in mind? What about going to work for the gubment as a civilian and buying your FERS years?

HSCP is not an option. I am active duty army and let's just say that my two choices are HPSP or USU only.

 

[a gray man]

Also. I think you have to do 10 to retire as an officer.

From talking to quite a few people I understand that you must do ten years to retain the rank of officer but your retirement pay is still based on your last three years of service.

In any event, I have an additional service remaining requirement of three years on top of whatever I get for USU/HPSP. So, I will do ten years either way.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Ok, so the tradeoff is between finishing your obligation in time to sign a msp or not. Any sense what specialty you want?

 

[colbgw02]

That's the way I am leaning although I have been in long enough to know the value of freedom and the drain of beaurocracy

Yeah, the math makes sense for a number of reasons to do USUHS. The ten years of active duty (at least) with USUHS would get you to retirement as an officer, too. And let's not forget that retiring then would put your highest 3 in the O4 column, whereas the minimum seven years of HPSP would put two of your highest 3 in O3 territory. Plus, the HPSP route would leave you a year in the IRR, and I'm not even sure how that works. Can you collect retirement if you still owe a year in the IRR?

If you're determined to get the AD retirement, then I'd do USUHS in your shoes. But I would seriously considering using your post-9/11 GI Bill to put a serious dent in your loan burden, buying back your years, and then looking at a GS job.

 

[colbgw02]

In any event, I have an additional service remaining requirement of three years on top of whatever I get for USU/HPSP. So, I will do ten years either way.

Oops, didn't see this before my last post, so obviously some of what I wrote isn't applicable.

 

[a gray man]

Ok, so the tradeoff is between finishing your obligation in time to sign a msp or not. Any sense what specialty you want?

RGR, I would most likely get out asap whether I do USU or HPSP because I will have those ten years as an O either way.

Really not sure what residency at this point but our retirement property is in a fairly rural area and I would like to keep practicing close to the house. Obviously this will probably keep my options somewhat limited.

 

[a gray man]

Yeah, the math makes sense for a number of reasons to do USUHS. The ten years of active duty (at least) with USUHS would get you to retirement as an officer, too. And let's not forget that retiring then would put your highest 3 in the O4 column, whereas the minimum seven years of HPSP would put two of your highest 3 in O3 territory. Plus, the HPSP route would leave you a year in the IRR, and I'm not even sure how that works. Can you collect retirement if you still owe a year in the IRR?

If you're determined to get the AD retirement, then I'd do USUHS in your shoes. But I would seriously considering using your post-9/11 GI Bill to put a serious dent in your loan burden, buying back your years, and then looking at a GS job.

I may be wrong but I don't think I will have an irr time to do given my situation.

Trust me, if I had the option to totally separate and pursue medicine I would. Due to my particular circumstances I can't though. PM me if you would like more details.

 

[colbgw02]

Really not sure what residency at this point but our retirement property is in a fairly rural area and I would like to keep practicing close to the house. Obviously this will probably keep my options somewhat limited.

Don't let the location of your retirement property affect your choice of specialty.

 

[colbgw02]

I may be wrong but I don't think I will have an irr time to do given my situation.

Trust me, if I had the option to totally separate and pursue medicine I would. Due to my particular circumstances I can't though. PM me if you would like more details.

Yeah, because you've got those extra 3 years, the IRR thing doesn't apply even if you do HPSP route.

 

[a gray man]

Yeah, because you've got those extra 3 years, the IRR thing doesn't apply even if you do HPSP route.

I appreciate The advice. Looks like USU if you were in my shoes.

Anyone else?

 

[Red Lobster Actual]

That's the way I am leaning although I have been in long enough to know the value of freedom and the drain of beaurocracy

I'm assuming you were referring to attending USU versus attending a civilian program? From what I have gathered from current students, USU is more akin to wearing a uniform around medical school as opposed to being in a military school. The school is for the most part shielded from the regular military system. Again, this is just from what I have gathered from current students.

The previous posters are all very wise on this topic and their words hold great weight. It is very unlikely another sdn mil med veteran will advise against what has already been recommended to you.

And thank you very much for your service Sir. Given your TIS you must have joined soon after the fall of the towers.

 

[Cooperd0g]

I would not pass up the extra income, investment opportunity and retirement associated with USUHS if I were you. I was right about the same amount of years as you were and the money side comes in pretty favorably on the side of USUHS over HPSP plus the better life while actually in school. You are looking at $88936.56 (2015 payscale, O-1E > 14 years with BAS and BAH with dependents) as a student. You could max out the TSP, you and your spouses' IRA and still have $60k per year salary (almost 3x what HPSP pays). Plus you could do like me and a few other folks and do all of your rotations away from the DC area and save even more money on rent.

 

[Red Lobster Actual]

Plus you could do like me and a few other folks and do all of your rotations away from the DC area

This is interesting. How easy would it be to schedule the last two years at USU doing all one's rotations in Balboa for example?

 

[a gray man]

I'm assuming you were referring to attending USU versus attending a civilian program? From what I have gathered from current students, USU is more akin to wearing a uniform around medical school as opposed to being in a military school. The school is for the most part shielded from the regular military system. Again, this is just from what I have gathered from current students.

The previous posters are all very wise on this topic and their words hold great weight. It is very unlikely another sdn mil med veteran will advise against what has already been recommended to you.

And thank you very much for your service Sir. Given your TIS you must have joined soon after the fall of the towers.

Actually I was talking about life in the big army being beaurocratic. I have a few friends at usu who echo what you have said. I think life there would be good minus living in DC.

As far as my service goes, it has been quite a ride so far. I am definitely enjoying this change of pace though.

Finally, I am pleased to see that folks have confirmed my intuition on the best route to take. The advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[a gray man]

I would not pass up the extra income, investment opportunity and retirement associated with USUHS if I were you. I was right about the same amount of years as you were and the money side comes in pretty favorably on the side of USUHS over HPSP plus the better life while actually in school. You are looking at $88936.56 (2015 payscale, O-1E > 14 years with BAS and BAH with dependents) as a student. You could max out the TSP, you and your spouses' IRA and still have $60k per year salary (almost 3x what HPSP pays). Plus you could do like me and a few other folks and do all of your rotations away from the DC area and save even more money on rent.

Thanks for your in depth analysis. I figured that all together it would be close to a 200,000 difference if I attended a civilian school. Obviously that is quite the consideration.

As far as rotations go: how likely is it to get things set up like you mentioned? Like staying in one spot the whole time... I would like to keep the family together as much as possible.

 

[Gastrapathy]

There are some downsides to USU that you need to understand.

You will not receive an MSP as soon. Depending on the specialty, this could erase your financial gains as a student.

You will have a long obligation. If you decide on an outservice subspecialty fellowship (particularly surgical) in the future, you will extend your commitment beyond your retirement obligation.

You will get all your medical training inside the military. You don't need the exposure to the way the Army works and you might benefit from a little look at the real world (although academic medicine is as far from reality as the military in many ways).

Most USU students want to homestead in DC. You'll have to do some rotations in other places, some of which will suck. But then, those are all Army bases so maybe you won't think they are as terrible as it sounds to me.

All that said, in your situation, I'd probably take the money and comfort associated with going to USU. The real issue with military training is the residency program quality and you are committed to that either way.

 

[Cooperd0g]

This is interesting. How easy would it be to schedule the last two years at USU doing all one's rotations in Balboa for example?

Thanks for your in depth analysis. I figured that all together it would be close to a 200,000 difference if I attended a civilian school. Obviously that is quite the consideration.

As far as rotations go: how likely is it to get things set up like you mentioned? Like staying in one spot the whole time... I would like to keep the family together as much as possible.

A lot of the more traditional students and older students with families want to stay in the DC area. During the clerkship year (starts half way through MS2 through half of MS3) you have three blocks of rotations. The way they do it now, you spend one whole block at one location. Some locations are easier to get than other. I did all except one rotation at Portsmouth so my wife and I just got an apartment in town and I saved a ton on rent. Plus the overall cost of living was lower and I still was paid DC BAH. Balboa is tougher during clerkship year because a lot of students want to go there too. San Antonio is popular with some and less popular with others, but some students managed to get most of their clerkship there also. A few did the same at Madigan. For post-clerkship you can set up pretty much anything you want. The trick is to be ahead of the game and know exactly when they start accepted requests because frequently it is a first come, first serve situation and USUHS may not always know when it is happening for each hospital. Next thing you know HPSP or local med school students have taken all the slots at your hospital of choice for whatever rotation you were trying to get.

I parked it for clerkship and am actually going to be traveling for all of post-clerkship doing a different location for each rotation. My wife is going to quit her job and we are just going to road show for the last 1+ year of med school with a 27' camper.

There are some downsides to USU that you need to understand.

You will not receive an MSP as soon. Depending on the specialty, this could erase your financial gains as a student.

Yes and no, if he does like I do and maxes the investment opportunity he should still come out ahead. If he was willing to live on ~$20k with HPSP per year he could probably max investments and live off $60k easy, even in DC.

 

[colbgw02]

You will not receive an MSP as soon. Depending on the specialty, this could erase your financial gains as a student.

Going USUHS over HPSP would, at most, delay MSP by one year. Besides, both HPSP and USUHS will get him to retirement, so the benefit of MSP is diminished to begin with.

 

[DeadCactus]

You can nitpick the money long-term numbers but on a practical level the comfort of being a medical student with the salary of a 2LT with 10 years and dependents (rather than a student's stipend) is an immensely better financial benefit than the possible long-term financial gain of HPSP. Sort of a clinical significance vs statistical significance situation...

 

[DrMetal]

You can nitpick the money long-term numbers but on a practical level the comfort of being a medical student with the salary of a 2LT with 10 years and dependents (rather than a student's stipend) is an immensely better financial benefit than the possible long-term financial gain of HPSP. Sort of a clinical significance vs statistical significance situation...

I totally agree with this. I was a 6-yr prior-O when I attended USUHS, the salary was more than enough to support my family and I (my wife didn't have to work, stayed home to raise 2 kids). We couldn't have done it any other way. Now as a GMO, I'm about to put on O-4, will be making the equivalent of a civilian $150K salary...not too shabby. Of course, I've basically committed myself to the Navy until next decade, but I'm ok with it, I like the Navy.

The real word of caution that I try to spread to applicants before they sign the HPSP/USU-dotted line, is with respect to specialty choice (this seems to be the issue that burns people most later on). Folks don't seem to mind becoming a GMO, deploying, moving, PTing, wearing the uniform (they signed up for all that). But it they don't get their specialty or sub-specialty of choice, they go a little nuts, and understandably so. So if you think that you might (at all) be interested in a competitive specialty and you wouldn't be ok with any alternatives (if you don't get the urogyn fellowship, you ok being a general OB-gyn?), then don't join. Come in after you're fully trained.

 

[jabreal00]

Seriously it's almost a no-brainer, choose USU. You are committed to retiring. You are already well institutionalized to the idiosyncrasies of military life and bureaucracy. The extra pay during medical school will be nice for you and your family. Even if you owe years beyond your current eligible date to retire what does it really matter? Now if you came in with a clean sheet, I wouldn't make that recommendation.

 

[j4pac]

I wouldn't recommend USUHS to many people...but for you...it looks tailor-made.

 

[a gray man]

Looks like we have quite the consensus here. I sincerely appreciate everyone's responses.

 

[pgg]

I agree that USUHS makes a lot of sense for you.

But let's take a moment and count the years. You have 13 years of credit and owe 3 years already, so if we just arbitrarily decide you'll do a 1+3 year internship/residency ...

USUHS - matriculate 2015, graduate 2019, [owe 10y], done with internship 2020, (flip coin) 2 year GMO done 2022 [owe 8], 3-year residency done 2025 [owe 8], commitment up 2033. That's 18 years from now and you'd be able to retire in 2033 with 27 years (+4 more from USUHS for the pay multiplier) of service.

HPSP - matriculate 2015, graduate 2019 [owe 7y], done with internship 2020, 2 year GMO done 2022 [owe 5], 3 year residency done 2025 [owe 5], commitment up 2028. That's 13 years from now and you'd be able to retire in 2028 with 21 years of service.

 

[a gray man]

I agree that USUHS makes a lot of sense for you.

But let's take a moment and count the years. You have 13 years of credit and owe 3 years already, so if we just arbitrarily decide you'll do a 1+3 year internship/residency ...

USUHS - matriculate 2015, graduate 2019, [owe 10y], done with internship 2020, (flip coin) 2 year GMO done 2022 [owe 8], 3-year residency done 2025 [owe 8], commitment up 2033. That's 18 years from now and you'd be able to retire in 2033 with 27 years (+4 more from USUHS for the pay multiplier) of service.

HPSP - matriculate 2015, graduate 2019 [owe 7y], done with internship 2020, 2 year GMO done 2022 [owe 5], 3 year residency done 2025 [owe 5], commitment up 2028. That's 13 years from now and you'd be able to retire in 2028 with 21 years of service.

I wish you were right but taking HPSP would leave me retiring in 2030, not 2028. If I were to be getting done 5 years earlier by taking HPSP that might change things a bit.

Thanks for the break down.

 

[pgg]

I wish you were right but taking HPSP would leave me retiring in 2030, not 2028. If I were to be getting done 5 years earlier by taking HPSP that might change things a bit.

Thanks for the break down.

Oops, you're right ... some days I can't add. I'll fix my post.

 

[Kingfisher]

Folks, I am an active duty enlisted soldier with 13 years TIS and numerous combat deployments. I will either be matriculating to USU or a civilian school using HPSP this fall. I have read all the threads on mil med/USU/HPSP and understand the sentiment. My question for all the mil docs is: is the state of mil med so bad that I should attend a civilian school using HPSP as opposed to going to USU just so I can retire three years earlier?

I will be getting a mil retirement either way but: This would mean a few hundred thousand of lost dollars and a huge lifestyle change during school if I go HPSP and $700,000-$800,000 in lost retirement benefits assuming I live for thirty years post retirement.

Thoughts?

I was in almost your exact position when I started this business. Let me tell you my thoughts and why I chose HPSP.

1. The scholarship at a non mil school did wonders for my attitude. I didn't realize it at the time but I was getting burned out from the grind of the military machine. The break from endless useless training, collateral duties, and shaving was very refreshing. "Oh look, its a nice day outside. I'm wearing shorts and flip flops to classes today." (Said no USU student ever! haha)
2. You will be fine financially. I did it with 4 kids and my standard of living didn't change much from when I was enlisted.
3. Believe me that, "I'm going to retire anyway so I don't care how many years they tack on." Thought passed through my head too. I am soooo glad I didn't buy into it now. When you are on this side of things that extra 3 years matters! If you want to spend those extra 3 years in the military, it's better to do it on your OWN terms. It gives you leverage on billets and you have a greater piece of mind because you have more control of your situation. "You need me to fill that spot in Branch Health Clinic Craphole? Sounds great and all, but maybe I will be retiring after all next year."

 

[a gray man]

I was in almost your exact position when I started this business. Let me tell you my thoughts and why I chose HPSP.

1. The scholarship at a non mil school did wonders for my attitude. I didn't realize it at the time but I was getting burned out from the grind of the military machine. The break from endless useless training, collateral duties, and shaving was very refreshing. "Oh look, its a nice day outside. I'm wearing shorts and flip flops to classes today." (Said no USU student ever! haha)
2. You will be fine financially. I did it with 4 kids and my standard of living didn't change much from when I was enlisted.
3. Believe me that, "I'm going to retire anyway so I don't care how many years they tack on." Thought passed through my head too. I am soooo glad I didn't buy into it now. When you are on this side of things that extra 3 years matters! If you want to spend those extra 3 years in the military, it's better to do it on your OWN terms. It gives you leverage on billets and you have a greater piece of mind because you have more control of your situation. "You need me to fill that spot in Branch Health Clinic Craphole? Sounds great and all, but maybe I will be retiring after all next year."

Thanks for the response. I can definitely appreciate the family happiness approach as opposed to the purely monetary approach.

I agree that from a monetary perspective USU makes the most sense but based on my experience I am not so sure if it's the right decision for my family overall.

 

[HaYn04]

I think my own situation can relate to yours in many more ways than others. I had almost 15 years of enlisted service in the Navy making it to E-7 before accepting HPSP into a good state MD medical school. However, getting into USUHS didn't work out for me but if given the choice, I would have certainly gone there. Making that decision can depend on certain things in your own personal life which may or may not parallel my own personal life.

1. Going from making E-7 pay (with special pays) to a little over $2000 a month is a DRASTIC change in standard of living! Given your TIS, you're an E-7 or near that and you can understand this point of view. Add to this of having a wife and kids under the age of 5 and other financial obligations, jumping straight into the HPSP could mean financial difficulties if you're not ready for it. Your standard of living would be equal or probably more if you went to USUHS.

2. In order for my family to make ends meet, my wife now works full time of which she didn't have to when I was active duty. She was also able to get affordable medical and dental insurance through her job which was something that was unaffordable if I were to add them to my own student insurance plan. You add the co-pays and additional charges for prescriptions, only adds to your expenses. TRICARE takes care of this a$$ pain. In addition, having a wife with a full time job introduces a whole set of problems. There is the stress of having to shuttle the kids around and meeting our own school/work obligations. We both have to shoulder the responsibility of childcare which takes away from own studying time versus having a wife at home caring for non-school aged children if you were to go to USUHS.

3. Military training, collateral duties, and whatever nonsense that may occur at USUHS are things that you are used to that you find ways to take care of so that you can accomplish things that are more important. These things are easy and cannot compare to a combat deployment, of which I've been to several times as well as yourself. If all it takes is for me to speed through a 1 hour online course in 5 minutes, sit through another sexual harassment class, or nod in agreement to whatever someone senior in rank says to you, then I'll gladly do it and move on.

Some of my problems could be solved by taking out loans but to me it doesn't make sense to take out a loan if you're in HPSP. Luckily, I saved enough while on active duty but this can surely bring some worry into your life if an emergency comes up that you're not prepared for. Also, you need to realize that HPSP was not intended to cater to married students with dependents. I am also not using my GI bill which would not be able to be maximized given that I'm in HPSP.

Arriving into this game later in life versus your average medical student, where your family is the happiest and the most comfortable at may be more important than what school you go to. Given my own perspective, family "comfort" could be easily met through USUHS rather than HPSP. PM me if you have any specific personal questions.

 

[sdsrod]

I am in a similar boat, and would like to find out some information regarding HPSP, as I have had little luck speaking with my local AMEDD recruit. I have 13 years of active duty time in the Army, and still have about 18 months before I finish my degree. My understanding of this program was that if you are on active duty, and are accepted, you continue to receive all your pay while attending school as a 2LT. Can someone explain the financial side of this a bit better to me? Also, how does the retirement side of this program work? With the way the military is promoting enlisted Soldiers now, regardless of ones efforts, I could care less if I have to do 25+ years as an officer, I would just like to be better prepared financially.

 

[Red Lobster Actual]

My understanding of this program was that if you are on active duty, and are accepted, you continue to receive all your pay while attending school as a 2LT.

This is only valid if you matriculate into USUHS. This is the only medical school that will allow you to enjoy all the active duty benefits of an O-1. 7 years payback not including residency and training.

In regards to HPSP, you get tuition paid for and ~$2000/month and that's about it. During the 4 years of medical school you will get the chance to get a few months worth of O-1 pay. 4 years payback not including residency and training.

This is a very light summary. There are a few sticky threads in this sub-forum that will answer all your questions in detail.