Adcoms, are video games and video game community leadership worth putting on an app?

[Doctoscope]

A buddy of mine is an avid WoW player (World of Warcraft), and he's been leading a guild/community for almost 5 years now. He wants to put this activity as a leadership activity on his 2021-22 app cycle, but I told him it might not be worth putting on there. I said I'll ask the adcom fellers on SDN.

So, yay or nay?

On a side note, are there such thing as "taboo" hobbies that applicants don't really know about? (outside of obvious ones like furry fandom or something)

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[JimKimSlim]

I’m no ad com, but I have a similar story with my friend. A good friend of mine is extremely good at this game, called league of legends (LOL). He was the captain of our school’s lol team and played in competitive, college level. He’s a reapplicant this year. His LizzyM was around 70 with average clinical experience. I would love to also know if my friend is correct that mentioning gaming is frowned upon by medical schools.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

Eh personally Id recomnend against it. Theres still a stigma that persists amongst the older generation that people who play lots of video games are lazy bums. Its just reality of the situation.

And I say this as someone who saved Skyrim from Alduin as the Dragonborn and “saved the world from evil maneating dragon” would be a pretty unique EC.

 

[DNAJB6]

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I don't really consider that leadership nor do I think it is worthy of mentioning in medical applications. Ditto for captain of the bowling or golf team for us slightly older curmudgeons.

 

[Goro]

A buddy of mine is an avid WoW player (World of Warcraft), and he's been leading a guild/community for almost 5 years now. He wants to put this activity as a leadership activity on his 2021-22 app cycle, but I told him it might not be worth putting on there. I said I'll ask the adcom fellers on SDN.

So, yay or nay?

On a side note, are there such thing as "taboo" hobbies that applicants don't really know about? (outside of obvious ones like furry fandom or something)

I think that it's OK.

 

[Tenk]

Unless you’re tourney level this is pretty cringe. Also, the amount of time you have to invest to lead a raiding guild in wow is pretty significant and anyone who knows anything would probably wonder if you would have done better not doing that. I know I would.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

It’s “yea or nay.”
If someone saw that on an application it would go one of two ways: either they’re a gamer and will appreciate it, or they’ll think you’re making a mockery of leadership. I’d say chances are it will be the latter.

 

[Doctoscope]

Unless you’re tourney level this is pretty cringe. Also, the amount of time you have to invest to lead a raiding guild in wow is pretty significant and anyone who knows anything would probably wonder if you would have done better not doing that. I know I would.

I used to play with him back in 2017 (well, get carried), and his guild was fairly good, actually. They were routinely top 3 server when it came to raid clears. I suppose that's where his confidence is coming from, but I'll let him know it can be cringey.

 

[Doctoscope]

It’s “yea or nay.”

Yet another reason English makes 0 sense to me.

If someone saw that on an application it would go one of two ways: either they’re a gamer and will appreciate it, or they’ll think you’re making a mockery of leadership. I’d say chances are it will be the latter.

Interesting that it can be seen as mockery. Aren't small club leaderships in college essentially the same (or less) level of responsibility, though?

 

[Moko]

A buddy of mine is an avid WoW player (World of Warcraft), and he's been leading a guild/community for almost 5 years now. He wants to put this activity as a leadership activity on his 2021-22 app cycle, but I told him it might not be worth putting on there. I said I'll ask the adcom fellers on SDN.

So, yay or nay?

Some thoughts:
- Does he main a priest or another healing class? If so, he can also claim clinical experience off of this. Ditto if he uses First Aid.
- Does he give gold to the poor or help report gold sellers? That can help check Community Service/Volunteer - Not Medical/Clinical.
- Bonus points if he plays an under-represented race.
- On the other hand, if all he does is go stabby stabby with his rogue or Fury-spec'd warrior, he might be better served by keeping this to himself.

On a serious note, the application isn't there to account for everything that a person does. Certainly, applicants are encouraged to personalize their application by listing hobbies and the like, but to mark his in-game activities as "Leadership" on AMCAS would be a major stretch (even from the viewpoint of a fellow gamer), and a sign of poor judgment and self-awareness. The most I can see is listing this as a Hobby.

I’m no ad com, but I have a similar story with my friend. A good friend of mine is extremely good at this game, called league of legends (LOL). He was the captain of our school’s lol team and played in competitive, college level. He’s a reapplicant this year. His LizzyM was around 70 with average clinical experience. I would love to also know if my friend is correct that mentioning gaming is frowned upon by medical schools.

As a fellow gamer and younger adcom member, I personally enjoy it when applicants list games under hobbies (especially if it rose to the competitive scene). However, not all adcom members are as liberal, and I'm certain there are older adcom members who might see the listing of thousands of hours of gaming time as potentially being a waste of time, and/or something that shouldn't have been included. Ultimately, you can't please everyone on the adcom, and applicants should exercise appropriate judgment and apply with the application that best showcases who they are and why they will make an excellent physician and colleague. Of course, anything put on the application is fair game for scrutiny. Just my thoughts.

 

[Doctoscope]

Some thoughts:
- Does he main a priest or another healing class? If so, he can also claim clinical experience off of this. Ditto if he uses First Aid.
- Does he give gold to the poor or help report gold sellers? That can help check Community Service/Volunteer - Not Medical/Clinical.
- Bonus points if he plays an under-represented race.
- On the other hand, if all he does is go stabby stabby with his rogue or Fury-spec'd warrior, he might be better served by keeping this to himself.

On a serious note, the application isn't there to account for everything that a person does. Certainly, applicants are encouraged to personalize their application by listing hobbies and the like, but to mark his in-game activities as "Leadership" on AMCAS would be a major stretch (even from the viewpoint of a fellow gamer), and a sign of poor judgment and self-awareness. The most I can see is listing this as a Hobby.


As a fellow gamer and younger adcom member, I personally enjoy it when applicants list games under hobbies (especially if it rose to the competitive scene). However, not all adcom members are as liberal, and I'm certain there are older adcom members who might see the listing of thousands of hours of gaming time as potentially being a waste of time, and/or something that shouldn't have been included. Ultimately, you can't please everyone on the adcom, and applicants should apply with the application that best shows who they are (with the understanding though that everything put into the application is fair game for scrutinization). Just my thoughts.

Haha god this makes me miss WoW so much... but there's no way in hell I'm going down that rabbit hole again.

 

[Shunsui]

It's a little disappointing how video games are sometimes still looked down upon as indicators for laziness despite said applicant having a solid app all around

 

[Doctoscope]

It's a little disappointing how video games are sometimes still looked down upon as indicators for laziness despite said applicant having a solid app all around

I get both sides, it can be a really recharging activity when burned out, but it can also completely consume a life just like that (e.g. Wow + me in high school).

 

[Gaius Diocletianus]

In 2006-2010 I played in a top 10 world, top 3 US guild and decided not to include it. I learned much about teamwork and resilience wiping to pre-nerf M'uru/Brutallus for 50 hours/week. I was in charge of recruitment and would interview prospective guild applicants/trials. Also, my GM was famous for his nerd-rage and this absolutely helped me develop a thicker skin IRL.

That being said, I listed video games under hobbies but didn't list any specific games. I mentioned it once during an interview and was waitlisted. Ultimately, I decided not to mention any specific details due to the reasons many other posters mentioned above.

 

[Doctoscope]

In 2006-2010 I played in a top 10 world, top 3 US guild and decided not to include it. I learned much about teamwork and resilience wiping to pre-nerf M'uru/Brutallus for 50 hours/week. I was in charge of recruitment and would interview prospective guild applicants/trials. Also, my GM was famous for his nerd-rage and this absolutely helped me develop a thicker skin IRL.

That being said, I listed video games under hobbies but didn't list any specific games. I mentioned it once during an interview and was waitlisted. Ultimately, I decided not to mention any specific details due to the reasons many other posters mentioned above.

I hear they're bringing BC back as a part of classic.. ready for round 2?

 

[Catalystik]

A buddy of mine is an avid WoW player (World of Warcraft), and he's been leading a guild/community for almost 5 years now. He wants to put this activity as a leadership activity on his 2021-22 app cycle, but I told him it might not be worth putting on there. I said I'll ask the adcom fellers on SDN.

So, yay or nay?

Nay.

 

[DNAJB6]

It's a little disappointing how video games are sometimes still looked down upon as indicators for laziness despite said applicant having a solid app all around

I think you are reading more into the comments than are there. It isn't an issue of laziness. It is a question of judgment. Is the activity really significant enough to be included as one of the limited 15 spaces you have on the AMCAS application? If so, I think that will raise some eyebrows. As long as what you do is lawful and not unethical, I don't think they really care what you do with your free time as long as you show you aren't unidimensional.

 

[Gaius Diocletianus]

I hear they're bringing BC back as a part of classic.. ready for round

Eh, if some of the bros return and we can somehow raid minimally I can see myself being convinced to return.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Yet another reason English makes 0 sense to me.

View attachment 325981



Interesting that it can be seen as mockery. Aren't small club leaderships in college essentially the same (or less) level of responsibility, though?

Potentially. I didn’t say it was fair. Just how it is likely to be viewed.

 

[Shunsui]

I think you are reading more into the comments than are there. It isn't an issue of laziness. It is a question of judgment. Is the activity really significant enough to be included as one of the limited 15 spaces you have on the AMCAS application? If so, I think that will raise some eyebrows. As long as what you do is lawful and not unethical, I don't think they really care what you do with your free time as long as you show you aren't unidimensional.

I agree in the sense that classifying it as a standalone activity to represent leadership is a no go. I was more focused on listing it under hobbies. Moko mentioned that he/she enjoys seeing gaming under hobbies but may not spark the same reaction in older adcom members.

Is this not the case then? Should "gaming" just be removed from all parts of the application, including hobbies?

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

I agree in the sense that classifying it as a standalone activity to represent leadership is a no go. I was more focused on listing it under hobbies. Moko mentioned that he/she enjoys seeing gaming under hobbies but may not spark the same reaction in older adcom members.

Is this not the case then? Should "gaming" just be removed from all parts of the application, including hobbies?

Gaming is in my CV under hobbies... it was that way as a resident and as an attending physician. So yes it can be. But I would not put it under leadership.

 

[curbsideconsult]

Yet another reason English makes 0 sense to me.

Technically it's French. You can always blame the French. /s

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

Eh personally Id recomnend against it. Theres still a stigma that persists amongst the older generation that people who play lots of video games are lazy bums. Its just reality of the situation.

And I say this as someone who saved Skyrim from Alduin as the Dragonborn and “saved the world from evil maneating dragon” would be a pretty unique EC.

My biggest fear is ADCOMs discovering my affiliation with the Dark Brotherhood 😬

 

[borrawin95]

Some thoughts:
- Does he main a priest or another healing class? If so, he can also claim clinical experience off of this. Ditto if he uses First Aid.
- Does he give gold to the poor or help report gold sellers? That can help check Community Service/Volunteer - Not Medical/Clinical.
- Bonus points if he plays an under-represented race.
- On the other hand, if all he does is go stabby stabby with his rogue or Fury-spec'd warrior, he might be better served by keeping this to himself.

On a serious note, the application isn't there to account for everything that a person does. Certainly, applicants are encouraged to personalize their application by listing hobbies and the like, but to mark his in-game activities as "Leadership" on AMCAS would be a major stretch (even from the viewpoint of a fellow gamer), and a sign of poor judgment and self-awareness. The most I can see is listing this as a Hobby.


As a fellow gamer and younger adcom member, I personally enjoy it when applicants list games under hobbies (especially if it rose to the competitive scene). However, not all adcom members are as liberal, and I'm certain there are older adcom members who might see the listing of thousands of hours of gaming time as potentially being a waste of time, and/or something that shouldn't have been included. Ultimately, you can't please everyone on the adcom, and applicants should exercise appropriate judgment and apply with the application that best showcases who they are and why they will make an excellent physician and colleague. Of course, anything put on the application is fair game for scrutiny. Just my thoughts.

Wait I’m so sad now that I didn’t list wow on my app because I’m a multi-season gladiator (from cataclysm era) and I feel like this could’ve sparked some fun discussion.😢

 

[Rheopecty]

As a interim point of reference: Gaming with my collegiate team is listed as a hobby and as an MME (this was a mistake) in my AMCAS, even though I described myself as in-game leader/captain. It has not been brought up by my three synchronous interviews (4 total open-file interviewers). While it seemingly did not tank my application at the moment (1 T20, 2 OOS Mid-tier, 1 IS Low-tier), in retrospect, I would shy away from it if I were to reapply next cycle.

 

[mvsrocks]

On AMCAS, I included that I was on a collegiate League of Legends team freshman year and how we eventually placed high enough to get scholarship $$$. At one T10 interview, they asked me why they should care about this activity (my response included teamwork and resilience, and the adcom said it was a great answer). At another interview (with an older adcom), the guy spent like 5 minutes saying how he doesn't believe video gaming shouldn't be considered a sport (I don't know why he started talking about this since I didn't reveal/imply my opinion on the matter).

Tl;dr: I would only put video gaming in a Hobbies section and only if you've accomplished something with it.

 

[r2med]

Few weeks ago, I asked if SDN participation can be listed as an EC. On that thread, I was advised that in addition to SDN participation, gaming and game leadership listed as ECs will be frowned upon.

 

[LunaOri]

Fine to list it as a hobby, but you'd have to do some convincing to list it as a leadership activity...what leadership skills did you learn from gaming?

 

[fliflopmaestro]

A buddy of mine played video games competitively in a team and made over 100k in the past. He is currently applying this cycle. In one of the secondaries for a T10 school, he mentioned how being a competitive player in a team helped him be a team player and honed his communication and leadership skills as well as his ability to work in an intense environment. He got an II. Granted he is an exceptional candidate even without this experience, I feel that this helped him stand out.

 

[Doctoscope]

On AMCAS, I included that I was on a collegiate League of Legends team freshman year and how we eventually placed high enough to get scholarship $$$. At one T10 interview, they asked me why they should care about this activity (my response included teamwork and resilience, and the adcom said it was a great answer). At another interview (with an older adcom), the guy spent like 5 minutes saying how he doesn't believe video gaming shouldn't be considered a sport (I don't know why he started talking about this since I didn't reveal/imply my opinion on the matter).

Tl;dr: I would only put video gaming in a Hobbies section and only if you've accomplished something with it.

I don't know why people keep trying equate/compare gaming to sports, one way or another. Gaming isn't a sport the same way woodworking isn't marbling; sure, they both involve teamwork and hand-eye coordination, but that's about it imo. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Both are great in their own respective fields.

 

[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

Related question, what if I was literally a game developer as a previous career? I was involved in professional level esports for several games on the admin/coaching side, and was active in the Collegiate governing board for a major esport for several years during my career as a game developer. I have a bunch of strong bullets from my past life, but they definitely involve gaming stuff.

Given that it was essentially professional development/networking/career opportunities for me at the time, does that change the situation at all or would adcoms seriously think that makes me a lazy child?

 

[Med Ed]

Related question, what if I was literally a game developer as a previous career? I was involved in professional level esports for several games on the admin/coaching side, and was active in the Collegiate governing board for a major esport for several years during my career as a game developer. I have a bunch of strong bullets from my past life, but they definitely involve gaming stuff.

Given that it was essentially professional development/networking/career opportunities for me at the time, does that change the situation at all or would adcoms seriously think that makes me a lazy child?

List it as employment. Might make for interesting conversation at interviews.

 

[deleted849476]

What guild, what server and how often do you raid? Wouldn't want to brag and then have your interviewer fire up his custom gaming machine and challenge you to a duel.

On a real note, I'd just throw it in the hobbies section and use a sentence or two to describe your achievements and what you learned.

 

[Deltasidearm]

I agree with the answers above which boil down to: it's okay to list it as a leisure activity/hobby but not elsewhere without taking a gamble. I listed my gaming interest as a hobby and it has not impeded me in any way. In fact, it came up in one of my interviews as a strong connecting point and lead to the interviewer talking about how well rounded my interests are. However, stretching it further than a hobby (without extreme extenuating circumstances like if it's your career) seems like a poor lack of judgement to me.

 

[LadyDustyBlue]

Not an Adcom but I’m a non-trad student who lived with two gamers for 4 to 5 years previously (my older sibling & her husband). They actually met through a guild in Guild Wars 😅 but my bro-in-law’s day job was working for a major car brand company for 10 years at that point. But I doubt he’d ever mention this (being a guild-y) to his employer or any of his bosses in an interview, or out at lunch.


That being said, let your friend mention it with caution.

Professionalism in any industry requires tact and while one can argue that leadership can be handled in many forms or situations, I think the current pandemic teaches us that direct experience (in leadership, interaction with family, community, or otherwise) can’t be replaced with being behind the screen... totally. Technology can be seen as a barrier that challenges the value of such time spent or interactions, and your friend could be challenged how much time s/he/they have dedicated to reaching their guild/community beyond the goals of the game.

Anyway, my brother-in-law didn’t date my sister or would’ve known to fall in love with her, much less know her real name, until he met her 5 YEARS later. They met online when she was 15, and he was 20. So it’s all context. Hopefully, this adds to the discussion!

 

[Rapsidy]

In 2006-2010 I played in a top 10 world, top 3 US guild and decided not to include it. I learned much about teamwork and resilience wiping to pre-nerf M'uru/Brutallus for 50 hours/week. I was in charge of recruitment and would interview prospective guild applicants/trials. Also, my GM was famous for his nerd-rage and this absolutely helped me develop a thicker skin IRL.

That being said, I listed video games under hobbies but didn't list any specific games. I mentioned it once during an interview and was waitlisted. Ultimately, I decided not to mention any specific details due to the reasons many other posters mentioned above.

You were in Blood Legion weren’t you . Ah I miss the days of competitive raiding although I never got that high I was a dirty dirty disc priest so I was pretty much hated universally by my fellow healers.

I agree with many above, probably a stretch to consider it leadership but likely not to harm significantly as a hobby. I never mentioned it though as the only thing I gained during my wow years was weight and a healthy respect for procrastination.

 

[Tangerine123]

Well, with how the WoW community is nowadays. Link AotC and rio 10000 for PGY1 position.

I wouldn't add it, it does, however make an interesting conversation piece. Most people won't really understand, some people might even make fun of it, but it's really cool when somebody gets you and you get to share that nerd-ish side of you. It's how I found a DnD group at the Hospital I'm at, I also have 2 attending as Bnet friends

Been playing WoW since BC and was a dedicated raider up until MS3. When we had time to sleep in a night shift as an intern, sometimes I would just grab my laptop and do a few Battlegrounds or play a few Hearthstone games instead mmm. I'm still playing Shadowlands as a PGY1, not as much as I wish I could, but eh. Clearing Heroic Castle Nathria / Mythic+ whenever I have spare time.

Good luck to him, and For the Alliance! (or Horde scum!)