admission of sexism in match

[Allydalilo]

I am a woman who has matched into an moderately competitive, extremely male-dominated specialty. After much mutual courting between my home program and I, I didn't match there. It's a mid-tier program, and I should have been very competitive: 4 clinical H's and 2 HP, Step scores 250's and 260's, research, letters I received lots of compliments on, lots of extracurricular involvement. I was also very involved in my program, often attending conferences and friends with many of the residents. It really seemed like everyone was rooting for me. I was really bummed and asked my mentor, who's the associate PD, what he thought happened. He just said (via email) that it was a super competitive year, blah blah. I thought this was BS and started beating myself up, thinking that they just didn't like me enough, since I didn't see how it could be a numbers issue.

A bit of background: my mentor was my attending during my rotation. He noticeably preferred the company of the guys at first, and seemed really awkward around the girls, including me. I liked him a lot and thought he was brilliant, so I really tried to be friendly and show him that I wasn't uptight (thinking maybe he was worried about offending women, since he's a bit of a "bro.") Eventually, it seemed to work, he seemed to relax around me and I felt that we had a very good relationship- I did research with him and kept in touch all through the interview process. He knew that my home program was my #1, as did the rest of the department.

I ran into him the other day, for the first time since match day. Trying to put on my brave face and show that there were no hard feelings, I asked, so who are the new interns anyway? Wonder if I met any of them on the trail? He actually looked straight at me and said, "They're all guys. We have WAY too many women in this program." I was shocked but tried to laugh, to which he replied (with a completely serious expression), "I'm not kidding. Just WAY too many."

So, it all adds up: in my specialty, there were 5 of us, all female, that wanted to stay, all of whom were very qualified as far as I know. They kept NONE of us. I am baffled about why this guy would make such an inflammatory statement so blatantly. Before then, the "sexism card" had NEVER occurred to me- I thought much too highly of my faculty to consider it. Part of me is breathing a sigh of relief that I didn't get stuck at such a backward program, but I'm also extremely hurt and grieving the loss of one of my most influential mentors. I want to do my part to make sure that this is appropriately realized, so no one else will have to suffer like I have. Naturally, though, I'm also worried about burning bridges and setting myself up to be a victim of revenge- after all, if my faculty is capable of this, what else are they capable of? What should I do?

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[Doctor Bagel]

I am a woman who has matched into an moderately competitive, extremely male-dominated specialty. After much mutual courting between my home program and I, I didn't match there. It's a mid-tier program, and I should have been very competitive: 4 clinical H's and 2 HP, Step scores 250's and 260's, research, letters I received lots of compliments on, lots of extracurricular involvement. I was also very involved in my program, often attending conferences and friends with many of the residents. It really seemed like everyone was rooting for me. I was really bummed and asked my mentor, who's the associate PD, what he thought happened. He just said (via email) that it was a super competitive year, blah blah. I thought this was BS and started beating myself up, thinking that they just didn't like me enough, since I didn't see how it could be a numbers issue.

A bit of background: my mentor was my attending during my rotation. He noticeably preferred the company of the guys at first, and seemed really awkward around the girls, including me. I liked him a lot and thought he was brilliant, so I really tried to be friendly and show him that I wasn't uptight (thinking maybe he was worried about offending women, since he's a bit of a "bro.") Eventually, it seemed to work, he seemed to relax around me and I felt that we had a very good relationship- I did research with him and kept in touch all through the interview process. He knew that my home program was my #1, as did the rest of the department.

I ran into him the other day, for the first time since match day. Trying to put on my brave face and show that there were no hard feelings, I asked, so who are the new interns anyway? Wonder if I met any of them on the trail? He actually looked straight at me and said, "They're all guys. We have WAY too many women in this program." I was shocked but tried to laugh, to which he replied (with a completely serious expression), "I'm not kidding. Just WAY too many."

So, it all adds up: in my specialty, there were 5 of us, all female, that wanted to stay, all of whom were very qualified as far as I know. They kept NONE of us. I am baffled about why this guy would make such an inflammatory statement so blatantly. Before then, the "sexism card" had NEVER occurred to me- I thought much too highly of my faculty to consider it. Part of me is breathing a sigh of relief that I didn't get stuck at such a backward program, but I'm also extremely hurt and grieving the loss of one of my most influential mentors. I want to do my part to make sure that this is appropriately realized, so no one else will have to suffer like I have. Naturally, though, I'm also worried about burning bridges and setting myself up to be a victim of revenge- after all, if my faculty is capable of this, what else are they capable of? What should I do?

Wow, that's horrible. Do you have any potential female mentors in your field? If so, I might ask them how to navigate this. I agree with not burning bridges, but this is really deplorable and ideally should be addressed -- there are ways to anonymously file complaints. How small is your field, and how likely are you to return to where you went to medical school?

 

[Allydalilo]

Wow, that's horrible. Do you have any potential female mentors in your field? If so, I might ask them how to navigate this. I agree with not burning bridges, but this is really deplorable and ideally should be addressed -- there are ways to anonymously file complaints. How small is your field, and how likely are you to return to where you went to medical school?

After this, I would not set foot in my home program hospital as an employee unless i was about to buy it and turn it into a hotdog stand. Screw them! It is possible that I'll return to this city as an attending, though- there are a few academic programs here.

I have one female mentor- the problem is, she is the most junior faculty member, and a good friend of the APD, as they were residents together. That's what's weird, he seems to have some female friends. Even further, I worry about inadvertently hurting (or hurting my relationship with) another big name faculty member- also male, he was my other important mentor, and happens to be the sexist one's best friend. This guy is a wonderful person who immediately reached out to me after the match, swearing he had nothing to do w/ the selection process and wanting to help. So much is spinning around in my head right now. I don't want to overreact, but this is a HUGE deal for me. It's put my relationship in serious straights (SO has to stay here) and made me feel like all my hard work to stay was essentially for nothing. To top it all off, this jerk is supposed to hood me at graduation, and I can hardly even look at him without wanting to cry.

 

[Psai]

I'm sure that everyone who matched was just as good or better than you. It's very competitive at the top when it comes to competitive fields, desirable locations and top programs

Ortho wants more women though

 

[Allydalilo]

I'm sure that everyone who matched was just as good or better than you. It's very competitive at the top when it comes

Ortho wants more women though

I'm sure that everyone who matched was just as good or better than you. It's very competitive at the top when it comes to competitive fields, desirable locations and top programs

Ortho wants more women though

And if that's the case, fine. I initially just thought that my classmates and I truly weren't good enough. It hurt, but okay. But, wtf, then, is up with the comments and blatant refusal to take any home grads? (Not Ortho btw!)

 

[Doctor Bagel]

So I'm guessing the people replying telling you to move on and get over it are all male. And I'm guessing they'll pipe in and say that doesn't matter.

 

[Carlin]

Hey there, I'm sorry, this really does suck. Even if you were ranked lower due to reasons totally unrelated to your sex, it is hurtful and infuriating to have someone make comments like that to you. I, too, am in a very male-dominated specialty (also not ortho) and it has its trying moments, absolutely. I'm not sure there is really any action you can take except to hold your head high and be a stellar resident at the program that did want you.

 

[deleted480308]

So I'm guessing the people replying telling you to move on and get over it are all male. And I'm guessing they'll pipe in and say that doesn't matter.

OP matched into a competetive field...they are winning

Starting a ruckus over a comment they verbally heard (meaning it can't be proven) when still in the vulnerable position of not graduating residency yet isn't wise. It's not cool, but they get their dream specialty so they would do well to graduate before they put their neck on the line to right the world's wrongs

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

I am a woman who has matched into an moderately competitive, extremely male-dominated specialty. After much mutual courting between my home program and I, I didn't match there. It's a mid-tier program, and I should have been very competitive: 4 clinical H's and 2 HP, Step scores 250's and 260's, research, letters I received lots of compliments on, lots of extracurricular involvement. I was also very involved in my program, often attending conferences and friends with many of the residents. It really seemed like everyone was rooting for me. I was really bummed and asked my mentor, who's the associate PD, what he thought happened. He just said (via email) that it was a super competitive year, blah blah. I thought this was BS and started beating myself up, thinking that they just didn't like me enough, since I didn't see how it could be a numbers issue.

A bit of background: my mentor was my attending during my rotation. He noticeably preferred the company of the guys at first, and seemed really awkward around the girls, including me. I liked him a lot and thought he was brilliant, so I really tried to be friendly and show him that I wasn't uptight (thinking maybe he was worried about offending women, since he's a bit of a "bro.") Eventually, it seemed to work, he seemed to relax around me and I felt that we had a very good relationship- I did research with him and kept in touch all through the interview process. He knew that my home program was my #1, as did the rest of the department.

I ran into him the other day, for the first time since match day. Trying to put on my brave face and show that there were no hard feelings, I asked, so who are the new interns anyway? Wonder if I met any of them on the trail? He actually looked straight at me and said, "They're all guys. We have WAY too many women in this program." I was shocked but tried to laugh, to which he replied (with a completely serious expression), "I'm not kidding. Just WAY too many."

So, it all adds up: in my specialty, there were 5 of us, all female, that wanted to stay, all of whom were very qualified as far as I know. They kept NONE of us. I am baffled about why this guy would make such an inflammatory statement so blatantly. Before then, the "sexism card" had NEVER occurred to me- I thought much too highly of my faculty to consider it. Part of me is breathing a sigh of relief that I didn't get stuck at such a backward program, but I'm also extremely hurt and grieving the loss of one of my most influential mentors. I want to do my part to make sure that this is appropriately realized, so no one else will have to suffer like I have. Naturally, though, I'm also worried about burning bridges and setting myself up to be a victim of revenge- after all, if my faculty is capable of this, what else are they capable of? What should I do?

That's pretty ****ed up and I'm a guy.
Tricky situation and I'm not sure how one should navigate this. Ideally report to ACGME, but there needs to be proof. Best bet is to just move on.

 

[Lostin_space]

I am a woman who has matched into an moderately competitive, extremely male-dominated specialty. After much mutual courting between my home program and I, I didn't match there. It's a mid-tier program, and I should have been very competitive: 4 clinical H's and 2 HP, Step scores 250's and 260's, research, letters I received lots of compliments on, lots of extracurricular involvement. I was also very involved in my program, often attending conferences and friends with many of the residents. It really seemed like everyone was rooting for me. I was really bummed and asked my mentor, who's the associate PD, what he thought happened. He just said (via email) that it was a super competitive year, blah blah. I thought this was BS and started beating myself up, thinking that they just didn't like me enough, since I didn't see how it could be a numbers issue.

A bit of background: my mentor was my attending during my rotation. He noticeably preferred the company of the guys at first, and seemed really awkward around the girls, including me. I liked him a lot and thought he was brilliant, so I really tried to be friendly and show him that I wasn't uptight (thinking maybe he was worried about offending women, since he's a bit of a "bro.") Eventually, it seemed to work, he seemed to relax around me and I felt that we had a very good relationship- I did research with him and kept in touch all through the interview process. He knew that my home program was my #1, as did the rest of the department.

I ran into him the other day, for the first time since match day. Trying to put on my brave face and show that there were no hard feelings, I asked, so who are the new interns anyway? Wonder if I met any of them on the trail? He actually looked straight at me and said, "They're all guys. We have WAY too many women in this program." I was shocked but tried to laugh, to which he replied (with a completely serious expression), "I'm not kidding. Just WAY too many."

So, it all adds up: in my specialty, there were 5 of us, all female, that wanted to stay, all of whom were very qualified as far as I know. They kept NONE of us. I am baffled about why this guy would make such an inflammatory statement so blatantly. Before then, the "sexism card" had NEVER occurred to me- I thought much too highly of my faculty to consider it. Part of me is breathing a sigh of relief that I didn't get stuck at such a backward program, but I'm also extremely hurt and grieving the loss of one of my most influential mentors. I want to do my part to make sure that this is appropriately realized, so no one else will have to suffer like I have. Naturally, though, I'm also worried about burning bridges and setting myself up to be a victim of revenge- after all, if my faculty is capable of this, what else are they capable of? What should I do?

Sadly some male specialties are male dominated and guys are preferred due to the "bro" culture. I switched from a highly male dominated specialty, not because I wasn't good, quite the opposite, but because I wanted more lifestyle and what not. Anywho, I had some of the older attendings, especially one that founded the program who would make disparaging comments because of me being a woman. The younger male attendings were fine, encouraging, helpful, complimentary, etc. However it was evident that socially dudes were preferred. Currently I'm trying to go into a male dominated fellowship/subspecialty within my field. I have again realized that males are preferred in a social setting - attendings and fellows talk about dude stuff, of which I have no idea about, etc. I'm witty and funny and the attendings seem to like me, but mostly I have realized that some things are the way they are - I'm not a dude, will never be a dude, and the best thing I can do is simply be an awsome resident and get in based on merit, rather than "bro" factor. Sucks yes but it's not going to change. It's not necessarily that you are not liked because you are a woman but rather men will feel more comfortable with men in a social setting, and so forth. Also it is true that women even in residency tend to ask for more time off - maternity leave, kids stuff, etc. than male counterparts - so in certain fields where time is super constrained and bodies are essential, males may be preferred -- I'm looking at you Ortho!

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

So I'm guessing the people replying telling you to move on and get over it are all male. And I'm guessing they'll pipe in and say that doesn't matter.

I think if anyone had a true idea of how one should navigate through this, they'd say something. There is no proof, and what some associate PD said isn't going to hold up in a court of law.

 

[Allydalilo]

Thanks for all the responses. I can see both sides of the coin and haven't made up my mind about what to do. I did talk to our "ombudsman" dean- not a dean of the school, but there to help students sort through various life issues. She is gently pressing me to report it, even if it's after I graduate. Of course, we all know that there's still potential for revenge and dragging down the name of the program (which would affect others, who don't deserve it.)

I don't care about "getting revenge" and have nothing to gain from punishing/exposing him. In fact, I'm not even mad, just truly disappointed in him. Would it be petty of me to at least "fire" him as my hooder? The thought of him"welcoming me to the profession" makes me vomit in my mouth a little. Plus, if my dad sees him at graduation, I'm pretty sure he might have to be physically restrained from kicking his a** into next Tuesday, haha.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I think if anyone had a true idea of how one should navigate through this, they'd say something. There is no proof, and what some associate PD said isn't going to hold up in a court of law.

What I'm objecting to is the tone that implies that this really shouldn't be a big deal and shouldn't bother the op. Unfortunately it's not clear that the op can do anything, but the posts above essentially acted like this wasn't that big of a thing and like it shouldn't be infuriating and really problematic statement about the op's medical school program. It's easy to act like this stuff isn't a big deal when you're a dude and don't have to deal with it. The statements above weren't saying, hey, this really sucks, and it's really horrible this happened but unfortunately maybe there's nothing you can do. They were saying, hey, lady, nbd, get over it.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Thanks for all the responses. I can see both sides of the coin and haven't made up my mind about what to do. I did talk to our "ombudsman" dean- not a dean of the school, but there to help students sort through various life issues. She is gently pressing me to report it, even if it's after I graduate. Of course, we all know that there's still potential for revenge and dragging down the name of the program (which would affect others, who don't deserve it.)

I don't care about "getting revenge" and have nothing to gain from punishing/exposing him. In fact, I'm not even mad, just truly disappointed in him. Would it be petty of me to at least "fire" him as my hooder? The thought of him"welcoming me to the profession" makes me vomit in my mouth a little. Plus, if my dad sees him at graduation, I'm pretty sure he might have to be physically restrained from kicking his a** into next Tuesday, haha.

Perhaps you could have a switch in "hooder"
We didn't have that at my Med school graduation

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

What I'm objecting to is the tone that implies that this really shouldn't be a big deal and shouldn't bother the op. Unfortunately it's not clear that the op can do anything, but the posts above essentially acted like this wasn't that big of a thing and like it shouldn't be infuriating and really problematic statement about the op's medical school program. It's easy to act like this stuff isn't a big deal when you're a dude and don't have to deal with it. The statements above weren't saying, hey, this really sucks, and it's really horrible this happened but unfortunately maybe there's nothing you can do. They were saying, hey, lady, nbd, get over it.

Only one person didn't address that it was a crappy thing.
I've experienced at times situations where faculty would be more inclined to criticize me as a male a lot more than they would call out a female, especially if the attending was a male (although I've experienced this from female faculty at times too). So no, it's not just women being put down by the man, it happens both ways especially if you're not a white male.

 

[rokshana]

Thanks for all the responses. I can see both sides of the coin and haven't made up my mind about what to do. I did talk to our "ombudsman" dean- not a dean of the school, but there to help students sort through various life issues. She is gently pressing me to report it, even if it's after I graduate. Of course, we all know that there's still potential for revenge and dragging down the name of the program (which would affect others, who don't deserve it.)

I don't care about "getting revenge" and have nothing to gain from punishing/exposing him. In fact, I'm not even mad, just truly disappointed in him. Would it be petty of me to at least "fire" him as my hooder? The thought of him"welcoming me to the profession" makes me vomit in my mouth a little. Plus, if my dad sees him at graduation, I'm pretty sure he might have to be physically restrained from kicking his a** into next Tuesday, haha.

switching your hooder may be the way to go...if your mentor asks about it then maybe it would give you the opening to discuss the issue if you choose...particularly if you choose a woman to hood you.

 

[mimelim]

I am a woman who has matched into an moderately competitive, extremely male-dominated specialty. After much mutual courting between my home program and I, I didn't match there. It's a mid-tier program, and I should have been very competitive: 4 clinical H's and 2 HP, Step scores 250's and 260's, research, letters I received lots of compliments on, lots of extracurricular involvement. I was also very involved in my program, often attending conferences and friends with many of the residents. It really seemed like everyone was rooting for me. I was really bummed and asked my mentor, who's the associate PD, what he thought happened. He just said (via email) that it was a super competitive year, blah blah. I thought this was BS and started beating myself up, thinking that they just didn't like me enough, since I didn't see how it could be a numbers issue.

A bit of background: my mentor was my attending during my rotation. He noticeably preferred the company of the guys at first, and seemed really awkward around the girls, including me. I liked him a lot and thought he was brilliant, so I really tried to be friendly and show him that I wasn't uptight (thinking maybe he was worried about offending women, since he's a bit of a "bro.") Eventually, it seemed to work, he seemed to relax around me and I felt that we had a very good relationship- I did research with him and kept in touch all through the interview process. He knew that my home program was my #1, as did the rest of the department.

I ran into him the other day, for the first time since match day. Trying to put on my brave face and show that there were no hard feelings, I asked, so who are the new interns anyway? Wonder if I met any of them on the trail? He actually looked straight at me and said, "They're all guys. We have WAY too many women in this program." I was shocked but tried to laugh, to which he replied (with a completely serious expression), "I'm not kidding. Just WAY too many."

So, it all adds up: in my specialty, there were 5 of us, all female, that wanted to stay, all of whom were very qualified as far as I know. They kept NONE of us. I am baffled about why this guy would make such an inflammatory statement so blatantly. Before then, the "sexism card" had NEVER occurred to me- I thought much too highly of my faculty to consider it. Part of me is breathing a sigh of relief that I didn't get stuck at such a backward program, but I'm also extremely hurt and grieving the loss of one of my most influential mentors. I want to do my part to make sure that this is appropriately realized, so no one else will have to suffer like I have. Naturally, though, I'm also worried about burning bridges and setting myself up to be a victim of revenge- after all, if my faculty is capable of this, what else are they capable of? What should I do?

Maybe I mis-read this, but I'm confused. What is the gender distribution of the rest of the program? That is kinda relevant based on his comments. If you take 2 residents per year and your last 3 classes have 6 women, it is understandable for a program to 'value' having men in their next class. While one can say this in a far less inflammatory way, it isn't particularly sexist. Now on the other hand, if the majority of residents are men already, then I have no clue why someone would say that, other than being a sexist...

 

[tatsuchi]

Definitely sounds like a rough situation... but unfortunately as many people in this thread has already mentioned, without proof there's not much you can likely do about it in regards to addressing the program or future (female) applicants.

Out of curiosity though, what are generally considered the "male-dominated" specialties? I see we've all said the elephant-in-the-room that is ortho, but I wasn't under the impression there were other specialties that were similar in regards to their opinion on women (perhaps the other surgical sub-specialties, ie Urology?).

Medicine does feel at times to have an imbalance of genders distrobution, likely due to it historically being a male-oriented field, but from the specialties I've run into I've not noticed much if at all of a male-bias as opposed to their female colleagues, so a bit surprised at the suggestion there are more specialties out there that are like that.

 

[j4pac]

So I'm guessing the people replying telling you to move on and get over it are all male. And I'm guessing they'll pipe in and say that doesn't matter.

Would you recommend stirring up the hornets net and burning bridges for the future? You are implying that the people advising the OP to move on are sexists...and if you are an attending physician...that's quite pathetic. Grow up.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Congrats on your match in a competitive specialty at a site far away from this "mentor."

I think the key question for you is what you are trying to accomplish at this point with a complaint. You have every right to be angry and offended. That is as overt a sexist comment as you'll hear (regardless of the distribution of current residents). You have every right to share your feelings with your institution. You have almost no control over what happens after that.

Is it possible they will take this incredibly seriously right up to the point of firing him? Yes. But it isn't likely. More likely, he will be chastised and will defend himself (deny, claim he was joking, tell them the "real reason" you weren't ranked). From the outside, it will appear that nothing was done and the institution may feel that they can tell you very little about the outcome. He may feel that you have threatened his livelihood (particularly if he's been in trouble before) in which case you've created a lifelong enemy of him and his friends. People are loyal.

The Dean who is encouraging you to report won't have to deal with the fallout.

If you consider all of that and decide that this is important enough to you to report it, then do so with your head held high. Once your immediate shock and anger has passed, you need to be able to articulate to yourself what you think the outcome of that complaint will be/should be and make sure that this outcome is worth it to you.

 

[Allydalilo]

Congrats on your match in a competitive specialty at a site far away from this "mentor."

I think the key question for you is what you are trying to accomplish at this point with a complaint. You have every right to be angry and offended. That is as overt a sexist comment as you'll hear (regardless of the distribution of current residents). You have every right to share your feelings with your institution. You have almost no control over what happens after that.

Is it possible they will take this incredibly seriously right up to the point of firing him? Yes. But it isn't likely. More likely, he will be chastised and will defend himself (deny, claim he was joking, tell them the "real reason" you weren't ranked). From the outside, it will appear that nothing was done and the institution may feel that they can tell you very little about the outcome. He may feel that you have threatened his livelihood (particularly if he's been in trouble before) in which case you've created a lifelong enemy of him and his friends. People are loyal.

The Dean who is encouraging you to report won't have to deal with the fallout.

If you consider all of that and decide that this is important enough to you to report it, then do so with your head held high. Once your immediate shock and anger has passed, you need to be able to articulate to yourself what you think the outcome of that complaint will be/should be and make sure that this outcome is worth it to you.

About the lucky part- I know!!!! I have seen him treat women like crap. I have to admit, I wrote it off ("oh, well, they messed up, because….") I thought he was so amazing that I ignored the obvious. With me, like I said, at first he wasn't very friendly to me and acted overtly nervous most of the time, but this seemed to get better with time. Based on these things, I can't rule out the possibility that he's been called out before. After all, why else would he be so awkward around female students and residents so much of the time? I don't doubt that the program as a whole is on somebody's radar, because the PD was recently banned from working with students for a long period after he fired off a string of sexually-charged insults to a female student.

About the program's gender distribution: overall, it is by far mostly guys. Last year, they had an unusually female-dominated class, but this was by far the anomaly.

Here's what I'm thinking of doing: I might go to his office hours and privately tell him that, while I'm grateful for all he's taught me and have no intention of dragging him through the mud, his comments were really disappointing, and thus, I would prefer that he not be involved in my graduation. Does that sound reasonable?

 

[deleted480308]

About the lucky part- I know!!!! I have seen him treat women like crap. I have to admit, I wrote it off ("oh, well, they messed up, because….") I thought he was so amazing that I ignored the obvious. With me, like I said, at first he wasn't very friendly to me and acted overtly nervous most of the time, but this seemed to get better with time. Based on these things, I can't rule out the possibility that he's been called out before. After all, why else would he be so awkward around female students and residents so much of the time? I don't doubt that the program as a whole is on somebody's radar, because the PD was recently banned from working with students for a long period after he fired off a string of sexually-charged insults to a female student.

About the program's gender distribution: overall, it is by far mostly guys. Last year, they had an unusually female-dominated class, but this was by far the anomaly.

Here's what I'm thinking of doing: I might go to his office hours and privately tell him that, while I'm grateful for all he's taught me and have no intention of dragging him through the mud, his comments were really disappointing, and thus, I would prefer that he not be involved in my graduation. Does that sound reasonable?

it sounds like stirring up a hornet for no payout unless you all actually choose who greets you on stage

 

[Allydalilo]

it sounds like stirring up a hornet for no payout unless you all actually choose who greets you on stage

We do choose. I really hate the idea of not at least letting him know how hurtful this was. But maybe it's not worth pissing him off. I also don't want to confirm any stereotypes he has ("See! that's why we can't have women! So sensitive! So emotional!") Also, oddly, a small part of me is still a little protective of him and doesn't want to hurt him. Don't ask me why, I have no idea either.

 

[deleted480308]

We do choose. I really hate the idea of not at least letting him know how hurtful this was. But maybe it's not worth pissing him off. I also don't want to confirm any stereotypes he has ("See! that's why we can't have women! So sensitive! So emotional!") Also, oddly, a small part of me is still a little protective of him and doesn't want to hurt him. Don't ask me why, I have no idea either.

I would just choose someone else and don't bring it up until you are done with residency.....but I'm risk averse

 

[rokshana]

We do choose. I really hate the idea of not at least letting him know how hurtful this was. But maybe it's not worth pissing him off.

if who hoods you is personal, and you feel that the comment he made overcomes the help that he gave you as a mentor, then pick someone else and let him know, thank you for the help over the years, but that you have someone else hooding you and leave it at that. If he asks, then let him know why the switch...

if, after the hurt and anger has worn off and you are ok with him hooding you (he did mentor you the last couple of years and your matching somewhere else has to, in some part, be related to his mentoring), then let him hood you and get the heck out of dodge and go to the program that chose you and saw beyond gender and ranked you because they think you will be an asset to their program and be thankful that you are not at this place that is sexist (and worse that its not overt...overt you can handle a whole lot better than the "smile to your face, stab you in the back" attitude).

 

[Allydalilo]

I would just choose someone else and don't bring it up until you are done with residency.....but I'm risk averse

Problem is, he already knows I initially chose him, so I'd have to tell him he's un-chosen.

 

[deleted480308]

Problem is, he already knows I initially chose him, so I'd have to tell him he's un-chosen.

if it was me, I'd choose someone else and let them know but not get into the reason

I try not to burn bridges that might be useful in the future, even if they are sexist bridges

 

[Allydalilo]

if it was me, I'd choose someone else and let them know but not get into the reason

I try not to burn bridges that might be useful in the future, even if they are sexist bridges

This is likely what I'll do. I don't think he has any concept of how out of line he is. First off, we were within earshot of one of his female residents (who looked equally shocked, but of course, she REALLY can't say/do anything.) Second off, he finished the conversation by cuffing me on the shoulder and saying maybe he'd come visit me. wtf?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Maybe I mis-read this, but I'm confused. What is the gender distribution of the rest of the program? That is kinda relevant based on his comments. If you take 2 residents per year and your last 3 classes have 6 women, it is understandable for a program to 'value' having men in their next class. While one can say this in a far less inflammatory way, it isn't particularly sexist. Now on the other hand, if the majority of residents are men already, then I have no clue why someone would say that, other than being a sexist...

The existing distribution is important. The OB residency at my med school right now has 2 men out of 12 total residents across 4 years. Every year they talk about how they want more men in the program and do preferentially rank them higher, everything else being equal.

 

[Lostin_space]

Problem is, he already knows I initially chose him, so I'd have to tell him he's un-chosen.

As a woman I personally think that you are blowing things out of proportion and sadly in this case you are the one who is going to lose by trying to take it further. Unfortunately some things in Medicine suck and are unfair, and trust me when I say I have had countless times where I said - should I report this situation? But the reality of the matter is that when you "report" something, you are the lowest person on the totem pole, and have no reputation or standing, so going up against people who have other "bros" and people who have a career, reputation, standing will do nothing but leave you hanging. Sure you will maybe feel vindicated on a personal level but trust me when I say that in Medicine, at least when you are still in training, there are always ways people who are unhappy with you can find to screw you and ultimately hurt you, potentially making you lose things that you have earned. Can you "report" them? Sure. Will you win? No. Will something change? No.
Unfortunately while there is professionalism and what not that should be followed in Medicine, people do have the right to have their thoughts, whether they are PC or not. Probably those thoughts should not always be spoken, but hey not everyone is PC. I think by trying to go up the chain of command to report something that will likely get changed to Oh I did not say that, or student is mistaken, etc that cannot be proven, then you have no case and a permanent future enemy in your field which you claim is small. Risk/benefit analysis here is important. Don't let the momentary personal vindication ruin an otherwise likely promising career for yourself.
If it were something that could be proven, something in writing, something on video, etc. that's one thing but right now you have a small, off the side comment, that cannot be problem and that can be spun many different ways.

 

[mimelim]

Congrats on your match in a competitive specialty at a site far away from this "mentor."

I think the key question for you is what you are trying to accomplish at this point with a complaint. You have every right to be angry and offended. That is as overt a sexist comment as you'll hear (regardless of the distribution of current residents). You have every right to share your feelings with your institution. You have almost no control over what happens after that.

Is it possible they will take this incredibly seriously right up to the point of firing him? Yes. But it isn't likely. More likely, he will be chastised and will defend himself (deny, claim he was joking, tell them the "real reason" you weren't ranked). From the outside, it will appear that nothing was done and the institution may feel that they can tell you very little about the outcome. He may feel that you have threatened his livelihood (particularly if he's been in trouble before) in which case you've created a lifelong enemy of him and his friends. People are loyal.

The Dean who is encouraging you to report won't have to deal with the fallout.

If you consider all of that and decide that this is important enough to you to report it, then do so with your head held high. Once your immediate shock and anger has passed, you need to be able to articulate to yourself what you think the outcome of that complaint will be/should be and make sure that this outcome is worth it to you.

The existing distribution is important. The OB residency at my med school right now has 2 men out of 12 total residents across 4 years. Every year they talk about how they want more men in the program and do preferentially rank them higher, everything else being equal.

I think the distribution is important as well. Most OB programs preferentially rank men higher. I have heard of many surgical residencies ranking women higher to round out their programs better and to make them more "friendly" to future applicants.

Again, not saying that the guy isn't sexist, but programs are well known to use gender as a part of the application process.

 

[Allydalilo]

As a woman I personally think that you are blowing things out of proportion and sadly in this case you are the one who is going to lose by trying to take it further. Unfortunately some things in Medicine suck and are unfair, and trust me when I say I have had countless times where I said - should I report this situation? But the reality of the matter is that when you "report" something, you are the lowest person on the totem pole, and have no reputation or standing, so going up against people who have other "bros" and people who have a career, reputation, standing will do nothing but leave you hanging. Sure you will maybe feel vindicated on a personal level but trust me when I say that in Medicine, at least when you are still in training, there are always ways people who are unhappy with you can find to screw you and ultimately hurt you, potentially making you lose things that you have earned. Can you "report" them? Sure. Will you win? No. Will something change? No.
Unfortunately while there is professionalism and what not that should be followed in Medicine, people do have the right to have their thoughts, whether they are PC or not. Probably those thoughts should not always be spoken, but hey not everyone is PC. I think by trying to go up the chain of command to report something that will likely get changed to Oh I did not say that, or student is mistaken, etc that cannot be proven, then you have no case and a permanent future enemy in your field which you claim is small. Risk/benefit analysis here is important. Don't let the momentary personal vindication ruin an otherwise likely promising career for yourself.
If it were something that could be proven, something in writing, something on video, etc. that's one thing but right now you have a small, off the side comment, that cannot be problem and that can be spun many different ways.

I don't think I'm blowing this out of proportion, because that's not how I am. As I said, even after witnessing plenty of sexist behavior, I refused to attribute it to that and have always frowned upon people who are quick to play the "sexism/racism/-ism" card when things don't go their way.

I do see what you're saying about not winning, and weighing personal vindication against future ramifications, though. I didn't say the field was small- in fact, it's not particularly. Even with that, I've often been surprised by "who knows who" throughout this process. Regarding "proving it," I absolutely refuse to involve the resident that overheard, as she has more at stake than I do, given that she must put up with him for several more years. I wouldn't blame her a bit if she was asked and denied the whole thing.

I have already told the other female applicants from my class, and will likely tell a couple of 3rd year girls that have been asking me for application advice lately. I think that's fair- hell, I wish someone would have clued me in.

 

[Lostin_space]

I don't think I'm blowing this out of proportion, because that's not how I am. As I said, even after witnessing plenty of sexist behavior, I refused to attribute it to that and have always frowned upon people who are quick to play the "sexism/racism/-ism" card when things don't go their way.

I do see what you're saying about not winning, and weighing personal vindication against future ramifications, though. I didn't say the field was small- in fact, it's not particularly. Even with that, I've often been surprised by "who knows who" throughout this process. Regarding "proving it," I absolutely refuse to involve the resident that overheard, as she has more at stake than I do, given that she must put up with him for several more years. I wouldn't blame her a bit if she was asked and denied the whole thing.

I have already told the other female applicants from my class, and will likely tell a couple of 3rd year girls that have been asking me for application advice lately. I think that's fair- hell, I wish someone would have clued me in.

Exactly, I doubt the resident would support you when she has a lot to lose. It's your choice, obviously but would caution you to really think what's at stake and what you can really win. What's it going to change? They are not going to change the way residents are selected, if it's a male dominated specialty - if not Ortho, Rads come to mind?, that's certainly not going to change either. Do what you feel is best, but keep in mind that Medicine at the end of the day is a small world, and that as much as it sucks, unlike other professions, residents can get royally screwed in many ways if they piss off the wrong person. In this situation I would let things be and enjoy your residency program where you matched and try to establish a better culture there.

 

[Cognovi]

Out of curiosity though, what are generally considered the "male-dominated" specialties? I see we've all said the elephant-in-the-room that is ortho, but I wasn't under the impression there were other specialties that were similar in regards to their opinion on women (perhaps the other surgical sub-specialties, ie Urology?).

Here's a gender distribution of residents by specialty: http://bit.ly/239BNdE

ortho, neurosurgery, thoracic surgery, urology

 

[Gastrapathy]

So the program has a track record of misbehavior and you can see what the institution did in the past. That should help you decide if complaining serves a purpose.

 

[Allydalilo]

Update: it came to my attention today that some committee of higher-ups at my school raised concern about the fact that my home program has failed to retain any of its students in the past few years. The department's response was "gee, we don't know why that is, we guess we'll have to try harder to recruit them." Of course, this was knowing full well that several of us, all girls, wanted to stay this year- that is to say, if they had truly wanted us, at least some of us should have matched there. Apparently, someone recognized that all those who wanted to stay were actually pretty stellar applicants and smelled something fishy, so they're going to conduct a sort of mini-investigation comparing the stats of the home applicants with those of the matched applicants. Our dean asked our permission to share our rank lists with the committee, thus most likely proving that (based on what I know about average stats in our specialty and program) most of our stats exceed those of the matched applicants, and yet we still didn't match there. Now, of course, I'm guessing the PD and APD will tug their collars, sweat a little, and come up with some B.S. reasons why they didn't take any of us. But maybe, just maybe, it will make them aware that they are on someone's radar and prompt them to clean up their act. I'm a firm believer that most people who are dumb/cocky enough to behave this way will eventually dig their own graves, regardless of whether others blow the whistle on them or not.

Meanwhile, we'll all waltz off to our respective programs that actually want us, even if we can't chest-bump with the attendings ;-)

 

[hmockingbird]

This may have already passed - but especially since they are conducting an "investigation" would it be possible for someone else to pass the comments you heard along to the PD/APT? (Like the ombudsman dean.) Especially after you have graduated and moved on, so they wouldn't know which of the women it was?

ETA: In a way I do agree you are moving to somewhere where you will be more accepted anyway but I also think there is value to wanting to make things better at your home program for future applicants.

 

[Law2Doc]

Update: it came to my attention today that some committee of higher-ups at my school raised concern about the fact that my home program has failed to retain any of its students in the past few years. The department's response was "gee, we don't know why that is, we guess we'll have to try harder to recruit them." Of course, this was knowing full well that several of us, all girls, wanted to stay this year- that is to say, if they had truly wanted us, at least some of us should have matched there. Apparently, someone recognized that all those who wanted to stay were actually pretty stellar applicants and smelled something fishy, so they're going to conduct a sort of mini-investigation comparing the stats of the home applicants with those of the matched applicants. Our dean asked our permission to share our rank lists with the committee, thus most likely proving that (based on what I know about average stats in our specialty and program) most of our stats exceed those of the matched applicants, and yet we still didn't match there. Now, of course, I'm guessing the PD and APD will tug their collars, sweat a little, and come up with some B.S. reasons why they didn't take any of us. But maybe, just maybe, it will make them aware that they are on someone's radar and prompt them to clean up their act. I'm a firm believer that most people who are dumb/cocky enough to behave this way will eventually dig their own graves, regardless of whether others blow the whistle on them or not.

Meanwhile, we'll all waltz off to our respective programs that actually want us, even if we can't chest-bump with the ;-)

There are so many legit reasons to pass on any particular applicant despite their stats that my bet is these PDs come up with a few, actual or not, and not "dig their own graves". Plus if they had any women high on their rank list (other than those from the home school) that would be a reasonable defense.

You can't really just look at who they matched or the program's distribution to assert discrimination-- you have to see who they actually RANKED to prove discrimination. For instance if a program ranked a few women highly every year but these applicants chose to go elsewhere, that not discrimination though the distribution will certainly look damning. That might say something else about the program in that it's not viewed as someplace a woman would want to rank high, but the PDs would have a pretty good defense on the match part. I've witnessed situations where a program ranked many women highly and still ended up with an all male residency class, by the magic of the match. That's not discrimination, that's bad marketing. And that's true even if they chose to pass on other women in the applicant pool.

I'm not saying discrimination doesn't exist, at this program; it probably does. I'm just saying a number of the arguments raised in this thread aren't really iron clad proof.

 

[markcinnn]

"They're all guys. We have WAY too many women in this program." I was shocked but tried to laugh, to which he replied (with a completely serious expression), "I'm not kidding. Just WAY too many."

To me, this doesn't explicitly imply prejudice against women, but simply the existence of a gender quota. Calling that an admission of sexism is like calling med school admissions interest in race an admission of racism. Not saying you can't complain about it if you want to - but the totality of it - that last year's class was majority female and that a female junior faculty is a good friend of his - make a charge of sexism premature and maybe even unfair (unless there's something less perceptible that we aren't privy to). Further, your stats are stellar, but were the other all-female applicants from your school that good? Like someone else said, there are a lot of variables here.

 

[Allydalilo]

I went to meet with this attending today, to tell him that I was going to have someone else hood me at graduation. Naturally, he was upset and asked why, so I told him how disappointed I was by his comment and that it felt wrong to have him "welcome me into the profession." I made it clear that I had no intention of shouting from the rooftops or making a public stink. He didn't even try to say he was kidding or anything- instead, he flat-out denied ever saying such a thing, and tried to turn it on me. ("I'm soooo hurt you'd even think that, after all I've done for you….") Then went on to say how much he would have liked to keep me, but that the rank list wasn't his decision, which I can only assume is horse****, he's the freaking associate PD. I tried to explain that I wasn't trying to hurt him, but I know what I heard. Twice, no less! He acted all choked up and said "well, you should have someone hood you that you…believe in. Take some time and think about it." I am so horribly upset. I still don't doubt what I heard, but he's ridiculously forgetful, so part of me wonders if he truly forgets what he said and is genuinely confused. I wanted to get things out in the open, but it was reallllly hard to see him that upset and think that I was the cause. ( Yeah, I know, his own behavior is the real cause, but still, it sucks.) At the same time, even though it doesn't make any sense to feel both, I'm also furious with him for a) saying what I KNOW he said and b) not sticking his neck out for me, or any of us, when I'm quite sure he had the power to do so. To top it off, I didn't even effectively put my foot down and make it clear that I don't want him involved in my graduation- that means I'll probably have to rip the scab off again at a later time.

to the poster who inquired about the other female applicant's stats: Similar grades, board scores 230's to 240's as far as I know- well above the average for this specialty. Many of them also had a ton of research.

 

[deleted480308]

I went to meet with this attending today, to tell him that I was going to have someone else hood me at graduation. Naturally, he was upset and asked why, so I told him how disappointed I was by his comment and that it felt wrong to have him "welcome me into the profession." I made it clear that I had no intention of shouting from the rooftops or making a public stink. He didn't even try to say he was kidding or anything- instead, he flat-out denied ever saying such a thing, and tried to turn it on me. ("I'm soooo hurt you'd even think that, after all I've done for you….") Then went on to say how much he would have liked to keep me, but that the rank list wasn't his decision, which I can only assume is horse****, he's the freaking associate PD. I tried to explain that I wasn't trying to hurt him, but I know what I heard. Twice, no less! He acted all choked up and said "well, you should have someone hood you that you…believe in. Take some time and think about it." I am so horribly upset. I still don't doubt what I heard, but he's ridiculously forgetful, so part of me wonders if he truly forgets what he said and is genuinely confused. I wanted to get things out in the open, but it was reallllly hard to see him that upset and think that I was the cause. ( Yeah, I know, his own behavior is the real cause, but still, it sucks.) At the same time, even though it doesn't make any sense to feel both, I'm also furious with him for a) saying what I KNOW he said and b) not sticking his neck out for me, or any of us, when I'm quite sure he had the power to do so. To top it off, I didn't even effectively put my foot down and make it clear that I don't want him involved in my graduation- that means I'll probably have to rip the scab off again at a later time.

to the poster who inquired about the other female applicant's stats: Similar grades, board scores 230's to 240's as far as I know- well above the average for this specialty. Many of them also had a ton of research.

He might be hurt because he might be a genuinely nice guy who wants good things for his students. For instance, the female students who he mentors for years so they can get into a good specialty who then tell him he'a a sexist jerk they don't want to associate with...

There isn't malice in every situation

 

[22031 Alum]

Then went on to say how much he would have liked to keep me, but that the rank list wasn't his decision, which I can only assume is horse****, he's the freaking associate PD.

For what it's worth, at some (many?) programs the associate PD isn't all that powerful and has no more say in the final rank list than any other random faculty member. Which may not be any say at all- especially in smaller residencies you can see PDs or chairs who make the final list on their own in the end.

 

[Allydalilo]

He might be hurt because he might be a genuinely nice guy who wants good things for his students. For instance, the female students who he mentors for years so they can get into a good specialty who then tell him he'a a sexist jerk they don't want to associate with...

There isn't malice in every situation

I want to believe that. I want to think that the dingus PD, who's notoriously insane as noted, is responsible for all of this. I want to think that the APD's comments were a screwed up joke, or a figment of my imagination or something. But I know what I heard, and I don't think I can ever see him as I once did again.

 

[rokshana]

He might be hurt because he might be a genuinely nice guy who wants good things for his students. For instance, the female students who he mentors for years so they can get into a good specialty who then tell him he'a a sexist jerk they don't want to associate with...

There isn't malice in every situation

did you even read any of this thread?

and as for the aPD having real influence, agree with the above posters... it can vary...some places the PD has the final say.

 

[Law2Doc]

For what it's worth, at some (many?) programs the associate PD isn't all that powerful and has no more say in the final rank list than any other random faculty member. Which may not be any say at all- especially in smaller residencies you can see PDs or chairs who make the final list on their own in the end.

Yeah at the places I've been rank lists were done as a committee, with the PD (not associate or assistant) having power to tweak things at the end. At smaller places it could presumably be just the PD making the list. So if your attending had only one vote on a committee of six or ten, etc he really may have actually done all he could. He perhaps in a good word, voted in your favor but didn't carry the day.

 

[markcinnn]

I went to meet with this attending today, to tell him that I was going to have someone else hood me at graduation. Naturally, he was upset and asked why, so I told him how disappointed I was by his comment and that it felt wrong to have him "welcome me into the profession." I made it clear that I had no intention of shouting from the rooftops or making a public stink. He didn't even try to say he was kidding or anything- instead, he flat-out denied ever saying such a thing, and tried to turn it on me. ("I'm soooo hurt you'd even think that, after all I've done for you….") Then went on to say how much he would have liked to keep me, but that the rank list wasn't his decision, which I can only assume is horse****, he's the freaking associate PD. I tried to explain that I wasn't trying to hurt him, but I know what I heard. Twice, no less! He acted all choked up and said "well, you should have someone hood you that you…believe in. Take some time and think about it." I am so horribly upset. I still don't doubt what I heard, but he's ridiculously forgetful, so part of me wonders if he truly forgets what he said and is genuinely confused. I wanted to get things out in the open, but it was reallllly hard to see him that upset and think that I was the cause. ( Yeah, I know, his own behavior is the real cause, but still, it sucks.) At the same time, even though it doesn't make any sense to feel both, I'm also furious with him for a) saying what I KNOW he said and b) not sticking his neck out for me, or any of us, when I'm quite sure he had the power to do so. To top it off, I didn't even effectively put my foot down and make it clear that I don't want him involved in my graduation- that means I'll probably have to rip the scab off again at a later time.

to the poster who inquired about the other female applicant's stats: Similar grades, board scores 230's to 240's as far as I know- well above the average for this specialty. Many of them also had a ton of research.

This guy helped you, did research with you, mentored you and was candid with you that an informal gender quota was in effect after last year's majority female class (how many people are in a class anyway, i.e. how big is the sample size?).
Then you paid him back by blindsiding him with accusations of sexism. Likely, he was close to you as a mentor if it caused him to get choked up and hurt. And then you finished it off by threatening him/his career (yes, bringing up that you could "shout from the rooftops" or make a "public stink" is construed as a veiled threat).

 

[deleted480308]

This guy helped you, did research with you, mentored you and was candid with you that an informal gender quota was in effect after last year's majority female class (how many people are in a class anyway, i.e. how big is the sample size?).
Then you paid him back by blindsiding him with accusations of sexism. Likely, he was close to you as a mentor if it caused him to get choked up and hurt. And then you finished it off by threatening him/his career (yes, bringing up that you could "shout from the rooftops" or make a "public stink" is construed as a veiled threat).

It's not even veiled

 

[rokshana]

This guy helped you, did research with you, mentored you and was candid with you that an informal gender quota was in effect after last year's majority female class (how many people are in a class anyway, i.e. how big is the sample size?).
Then you paid him back by blindsiding him with accusations of sexism. Likely, he was close to you as a mentor if it caused him to get choked up and hurt. And then you finished it off by threatening him/his career (yes, bringing up that you could "shout from the rooftops" or make a "public stink" is construed as a veiled threat).

Please...candid would be...the committee felt that the gender ratio was way off and used this year to self correct ... There are waaay too many females here is not...
This is about HER graduation and who hoods HER... If she doesn't want him to hood her she shouldn't have to suck it up just so his feelings aren't hurt...maybe if he had actually admitted it they could have talked it out... But he ends up denying he ever said it(and not only did she hear it another resident evidently heard it too) and tries to make HER feel bad??

 

[Allydalilo]

Also, I have talked with the residents who overheard. There were 2, which I didn't realize. They both agree that his statement was way out of line and was NOT meant as a joke. Since he got me by acting so hurt, and thus I left things hanging in mid air with him, I'm going to bring this to his attention and make it more clear where we stand this time. He won't be able to figure out who the residents were anyway, or to do so would mess with his story of "not remembering saying anything like that." At the very least, he owes them an apology, because they're both women. I have no idea how he could be so stupid.

 

[markcinnn]

Please...candid would be...the committee felt that the gender ratio was way off and used this year to self correct ... There are waaay too many females here is not...
This is about HER graduation and who hoods HER... If she doesn't want him to hood her she shouldn't have to suck it up just so his feelings aren't hurt...maybe if he had actually admitted it they could have talked it out... But he ends up denying he ever said it(and not only did she hear it another resident evidently heard it too) and tries to make HER feel bad??

Candid means "straightforward, frank". If anything he was too candid.

It was obviously a mistake for him to admit to the OP that there was a gender quota in effect after last year's majority female class. No doubt he didn't realize his mentee would come back to attack him personally with charges of sexism and threats to his career. He likely learned a lesson from this and hopefully he won't shun future prospective female mentees b/c of his experience with OP.