Advice for those wanting to enter academia?

[Angry Birds]

Hello friends,

Any advice for the young attending wanting to pursue academic EM at an academic medical center?

Thanks!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[KarlPilkington]

Hello friends,

Any advice for the young attending wanting to pursue academic EM at an academic medical center?

Thanks!

1. Work harder than everyone else. Show up early, stay late, be the clinician that folks want to see walking in the door for your shift.

2. Do something academic. This sounds simple but tons of young faculty sit around waiting for a project to take off or for someone to hand them a niche. You'll get a ton of academic credibility by just being productive. I've always taken the approach that I may never write Beethoven's 5th Symphony, but I can be really good at playing Happy Birthday. Write anything you can, lecture on a ton of subjects, for your first 5 years say yes to any project someone offers you. Especially in the growing world of FOAM, you can get your name on 5-10 things/year. It's great if you have a particular area of interest, but unfortunately most everything is already covered. You ain't gonna get an EKG lecture at ACEP or start a new Ultrasound Podcast, might as well be flexible and cover a wide range of topics. Most departments will highly value a faculty member who can churn out work and can wear multiple hats.

3. Get good at lecturing. Talk about topics people don't typically love to hear, apply for all New Speakers competitions at ACEP/AAEM. Take the time to make slides that don't suck and practice at home until you have your talk dialed in. Cold call large conferences (international ones are actually easier to get in) and offer to speak for free, pay your way, do a great job, and you'll get asked back the next time.

4. Don't talk to your friends in the community. I left community practice 5 years ago to go to academics. I make 50% less and work 100% more. The hours are well worth it, I have one of the greatest jobs in the world, but in academics you can become very susceptible to the grass is always greener phenomena. I can do my current job until I'm 80, I don't talk $ or hours with my community friends who are all looking for a way out before they turn 40.

 

[Angry Birds]

1. Work harder than everyone else. Show up early, stay late, be the clinician that folks want to see walking in the door for your shift.

2. Do something academic. This sounds simple but tons of young faculty sit around waiting for a project to take off or for someone to hand them a niche. You'll get a ton of academic credibility by just being productive. I've always taken the approach that I may never write Beethoven's 5th Symphony, but I can be really good at playing Happy Birthday. Write anything you can, lecture on a ton of subjects, for your first 5 years say yes to any project someone offers you. Especially in the growing world of FOAM, you can get your name on 5-10 things/year. It's great if you have a particular area of interest, but unfortunately most everything is already covered. You ain't gonna get an EKG lecture at ACEP or start a new Ultrasound Podcast, might as well be flexible and cover a wide range of topics. Most departments will highly value a faculty member who can churn out work and can wear multiple hats.

3. Get good at lecturing. Talk about topics people don't typically love to hear, apply for all New Speakers competitions at ACEP/AAEM. Take the time to make slides that don't suck and practice at home until you have your talk dialed in. Cold call large conferences (international ones are actually easier to get in) and offer to speak for free, pay your way, do a great job, and you'll get asked back the next time.

4. Don't talk to your friends in the community. I left community practice 5 years ago to go to academics. I make 50% less and work 100% more. The hours are well worth it, I have one of the greatest jobs in the world, but in academics you can become very susceptible to the grass is always greener phenomena. I can do my current job until I'm 80, I don't talk $ or hours with my community friends who are all looking for a way out before they turn 40.

That was very helpful! Thank you so much.

 

[dotcb]

The advice depends on your stage - are you in training, graduating, or in community EM?

 

[The White Coat Investor]

1. Work harder than everyone else. Show up early, stay late, be the clinician that folks want to see walking in the door for your shift.

2. Do something academic. This sounds simple but tons of young faculty sit around waiting for a project to take off or for someone to hand them a niche. You'll get a ton of academic credibility by just being productive. I've always taken the approach that I may never write Beethoven's 5th Symphony, but I can be really good at playing Happy Birthday. Write anything you can, lecture on a ton of subjects, for your first 5 years say yes to any project someone offers you. Especially in the growing world of FOAM, you can get your name on 5-10 things/year. It's great if you have a particular area of interest, but unfortunately most everything is already covered. You ain't gonna get an EKG lecture at ACEP or start a new Ultrasound Podcast, might as well be flexible and cover a wide range of topics. Most departments will highly value a faculty member who can churn out work and can wear multiple hats.

3. Get good at lecturing. Talk about topics people don't typically love to hear, apply for all New Speakers competitions at ACEP/AAEM. Take the time to make slides that don't suck and practice at home until you have your talk dialed in. Cold call large conferences (international ones are actually easier to get in) and offer to speak for free, pay your way, do a great job, and you'll get asked back the next time.

4. Don't talk to your friends in the community. I left community practice 5 years ago to go to academics. I make 50% less and work 100% more. The hours are well worth it, I have one of the greatest jobs in the world, but in academics you can become very susceptible to the grass is always greener phenomena. I can do my current job until I'm 80, I don't talk $ or hours with my community friends who are all looking for a way out before they turn 40.

Is it just me or does that sound like being pre-med for the rest of your life?

There's a reason you "become very susceptible to the grass is always greener phenomena." It actually is greener!

I'm not sure that the community folks are looking for a way out before they turn 40; it's simply that they have a way out before they turn 40, whereas an academic does not.

Seriously, I'm glad you (and a lot of other folks) do academics, but I'm not sure you're selling it very well. How about making a difference rather than churning out work and getting your name on something? How about becoming so good that conferences will pay for you to come rather than having to cold call them to speak for free? How about the opportunity to impact the next generation of EPs? I think you just talked me out of going back into academics.

 

[Cinematographer]

I think you just talked me out of going back into academics.

Surprised you were even considering academics in the first place. Sounds like academics= stupid stuff based on recent comments.

When you're in an academic center, you assume that academic physicians are looked at with more prestige because of the comments the academicians make about private practice docs.

However, there is a certain segment of the private practice population who looks at academicians as "suckers" for working for so little and giving up so much of their time and money for "stupid stuff" like publishing meaningless articles to get a meaningless promotion that comes with a trivial raise. Maybe it's something along the lines of:

"If you're so smart, how come you're not rich?"

 

[Tenk]

Academic jobs are actually not that hard to land. I work part time at an academic institution and it's a lot of fun. You just wander around and say hi to people and watch other people do things while you don't chart and make money in the process. The pay sucks... but it's fun!

 

[Angry Birds]

The advice depends on your stage - are you in training, graduating, or in community EM?

New attending in the community, but did a fellowship and currently getting an extra degree to build my niche for academia. Will apply for academic jobs in a year's time, hopefully.

I should clarify: I want to go into academics not for money, but to make a difference and pursue my research interest, which is my passion.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Surprised you were even considering academics in the first place. Sounds like academics= stupid stuff based on recent comments.

You know I spent the first three years of my military career in academia, right? I enjoyed the bedside teaching and lecturing but didn't like the disconnection with the patients and hated the publish or perish mentality.

The problem with academia is the publish or perish mentality. It's not okay to just be a good teacher. You've got to get your name on stuff. And so there's a ton of stuff published just to get your name on stuff that really doesn't move the specialty or science forward at all. Because you have to publish something, you end up spending time on that instead of something that really matters. I publish 150+ articles a year and give more presentations a year than many academics. It's not that hard to do that stuff. But if you want to really do something meaningful, that's a lot tougher. I mean, how many articles a year, even of those published in Annals, really matter?

And yes, I think it's ridiculous for an EP to work twice as hard in academia for half the pay. That's truly what it is. I understand a 10-20% difference, but 50%? Come on, that's ridiculous. Academic EPs need to be paid more.

 

[WilcoWorld]

Hello friends,

Any advice for the young attending wanting to pursue academic EM at an academic medical center?

Thanks!

If there are certain places you want to end up at, contact the PD or APD and offer to come present at conference, then give a killer presentation relating to your fellowship interest.

Also, publications help, a lot. If you have some project(s) from fellowship that you never quite finished up, or a case report that you've been meaning to get around to submitting, this is the time to get it done. Showing that you've maintained your interest since finishing training will look very good on your CV.

Good luck!

 

[Angry Birds]

Thank you all for your excellent input.

You know I spent the first three years of my military career in academia, right? I enjoyed the bedside teaching and lecturing but didn't like the disconnection with the patients and hated the publish or perish mentality.

I know it's "publish or perish" in many fields, but I thought it was more "publish and languish" in academic medicine, i.e. get stuck at the associate professor level without tenure. But, isn't it true that in most AMC's they don't have an up-and-out policy, and that you would still be retained for your clinical practice?

The problem with academia is the publish or perish mentality. It's not okay to just be a good teacher. You've got to get your name on stuff. And so there's a ton of stuff published just to get your name on stuff that really doesn't move the specialty or science forward at all. Because you have to publish something, you end up spending time on that instead of something that really matters. I publish 150+ articles a year and give more presentations a year than many academics. It's not that hard to do that stuff. But if you want to really do something meaningful, that's a lot tougher. I mean, how many articles a year, even of those published in Annals, really matter?

I agree with you 1,000%.

I would think YOU of all people would be a huge catch for an academic institution.

And yes, I think it's ridiculous for an EP to work twice as hard in academia for half the pay. That's truly what it is. I understand a 10-20% difference, but 50%? Come on, that's ridiculous. Academic EPs need to be paid more.

Fifty percent, ouch. I must be honest: I've been hoping that the disparity is exaggerated and/or not present as much in the geographical area I am interested in.

 

[WilcoWorld]

Thank you all for your excellent input.



I know it's "publish or perish" in many fields, but I thought it was more "publish and languish" in academic medicine, i.e. get stuck at the associate professor level without tenure. But, isn't it true that in most AMC's they don't have an up-and-out policy, and that you would still be retained for your clinical practice?



I agree with you 1,000%.

I would think YOU of all people would be a huge catch for an academic institution.



Fifty percent, ouch. I must be honest: I've been hoping that the disparity is exaggerated and/or not present as much in the geographical area I am interested in.

You are correct. Many academic centers have a separate clinical track, and only the tenure track faculty are subject to the "up or out" policy. Typically, you get to choose your track when you start, and you can switch tracks ONCE if you decide you are in the wrong track. At some centers the non-tenure clinical faculty don't even have to publish for promotion, they instead have to demonstrate good teaching and clinical care.

I agree with WCI that the publish or perish environment has generated mountains of useless papers (some of which I co-authored).

 

[gman33]

1. Work harder than everyone else. Show up early, stay late, be the clinician that folks want to see walking in the door for your shift.
.

I thought the only reason to go into academics was to sit around during your shifts and do nothing.

 

[Angry Birds]

I thought the only reason to go into academics was to sit around during your shifts and do nothing.

No rectals, no pelvics.

 

[DeadCactus]

I'm sure there is a wide variety of academic jobs from the minimal pay cut in exchange for bedside teaching of residents and the occasional lecture to the academic treadmill of despair where you trade increasing amounts of money in free time in the pursuit of little more than some vague notion of prestige until one day you snap and find yourself explaining why you were masturbating in the lounge...

 

[deleted109597]

I wish that the RRC would edit their rules and force all clinical and core faculty to work at least 20% of their shifts without residents. Too many of them have gone years without actually working up a patient from start to finish. Residents know this too. How many times does it take for them to realize that the attending doesn't know who to admit to, or doesn't know how to order test X, or whatever.
Plus, it would really make them realize that it truly is the attending responsible for "moving the meat" and not the residents.

 

[WilcoWorld]

I wish that the RRC would edit their rules and force all clinical and core faculty to work at least 20% of their shifts without residents. Too many of them have gone years without actually working up a patient from start to finish. Residents know this too. How many times does it take for them to realize that the attending doesn't know who to admit to, or doesn't know how to order test X, or whatever.
Plus, it would really make them realize that it truly is the attending responsible for "moving the meat" and not the residents.

Add the department administrators to that list of people who have to occasionally work without residents, and I'll sign the petition.

 

[deleted77919]

…

 

[KarlPilkington]

Is it just me or does that sound like being pre-med for the rest of your life?

There's a reason you "become very susceptible to the grass is always greener phenomena." It actually is greener!

I'm not sure that the community folks are looking for a way out before they turn 40; it's simply that they have a way out before they turn 40, whereas an academic does not.

Seriously, I'm glad you (and a lot of other folks) do academics, but I'm not sure you're selling it very well. How about making a difference rather than churning out work and getting your name on something? How about becoming so good that conferences will pay for you to come rather than having to cold call them to speak for free? How about the opportunity to impact the next generation of EPs? I think you just talked me out of going back into academics.

You're right on a lot of points.
I churn out a bunch of low level stuff, but it's stuff that means something to me and hopefully helps someone take better care of our patients. I've never been in Annals, probably never will, but by pounding out things for a few years I've gotten to the point where I can do things that mean something to me and get some credit for them.

Getting on the stage for a conference is tough, you can get to the point where they ask you back and cover the costs, but for a new faculty member, you are gonna have a hard time getting someone to foot the bill for your first opportunity to speak on a big stage. I paid for the trips my first few years, and just now have gotten to the point where folks are willing to pay for me to come talk.

Academics is great, I don't think I'll ever leave, but we need more folks willing to do some extra work and less folks who are looking for a chance to sit in a chair and watch residents work.

 

[sylvanthus]

1. Work harder than everyone else. Show up early, stay late, be the clinician that folks want to see walking in the door for your shift.

2. Do something academic. This sounds simple but tons of young faculty sit around waiting for a project to take off or for someone to hand them a niche. You'll get a ton of academic credibility by just being productive. I've always taken the approach that I may never write Beethoven's 5th Symphony, but I can be really good at playing Happy Birthday. Write anything you can, lecture on a ton of subjects, for your first 5 years say yes to any project someone offers you. Especially in the growing world of FOAM, you can get your name on 5-10 things/year. It's great if you have a particular area of interest, but unfortunately most everything is already covered. You ain't gonna get an EKG lecture at ACEP or start a new Ultrasound Podcast, might as well be flexible and cover a wide range of topics. Most departments will highly value a faculty member who can churn out work and can wear multiple hats.

3. Get good at lecturing. Talk about topics people don't typically love to hear, apply for all New Speakers competitions at ACEP/AAEM. Take the time to make slides that don't suck and practice at home until you have your talk dialed in. Cold call large conferences (international ones are actually easier to get in) and offer to speak for free, pay your way, do a great job, and you'll get asked back the next time.

4. Don't talk to your friends in the community. I left community practice 5 years ago to go to academics. I make 50% less and work 100% more. The hours are well worth it, I have one of the greatest jobs in the world, but in academics you can become very susceptible to the grass is always greener phenomena. I can do my current job until I'm 80, I don't talk $ or hours with my community friends who are all looking for a way out before they turn 40.

Sounds terrible.

 

[Tenk]

Btw I would like to add that anyone interested in full time academics should start off solo in the community in a hospital that isn't a tertiary facility. This way you can add a lot more to resident education and also gain the self confidence needed to not rely on other specialties. You can also make more money so you aren't financially strained. Also, By keeping a part time academic affiliation you can still gain access to research and keep your foot in the door as well. Hope that helps!

 

[Arcan57]

1. Work harder than everyone else. Show up early, stay late, be the clinician that folks want to see walking in the door for your shift.

2. Do something academic. This sounds simple but tons of young faculty sit around waiting for a project to take off or for someone to hand them a niche. You'll get a ton of academic credibility by just being productive. I've always taken the approach that I may never write Beethoven's 5th Symphony, but I can be really good at playing Happy Birthday. Write anything you can, lecture on a ton of subjects, for your first 5 years say yes to any project someone offers you. Especially in the growing world of FOAM, you can get your name on 5-10 things/year. It's great if you have a particular area of interest, but unfortunately most everything is already covered. You ain't gonna get an EKG lecture at ACEP or start a new Ultrasound Podcast, might as well be flexible and cover a wide range of topics. Most departments will highly value a faculty member who can churn out work and can wear multiple hats.

3. Get good at lecturing. Talk about topics people don't typically love to hear, apply for all New Speakers competitions at ACEP/AAEM. Take the time to make slides that don't suck and practice at home until you have your talk dialed in. Cold call large conferences (international ones are actually easier to get in) and offer to speak for free, pay your way, do a great job, and you'll get asked back the next time.

4. Don't talk to your friends in the community. I left community practice 5 years ago to go to academics. I make 50% less and work 100% more. The hours are well worth it, I have one of the greatest jobs in the world, but in academics you can become very susceptible to the grass is always greener phenomena. I can do my current job until I'm 80, I don't talk $ or hours with my community friends who are all looking for a way out before they turn 40.

On point number 2, that's a great way to stick around a department with minimal clinical buy down. I'm not sure it's a good way to generate job satisfaction. If you're spread over multiple unconnected areas it's going to be hard to generate funding, which seems to be the break even point between happiness and "WTF am I doing with my life" for the academicians I know. If you didn't graduate from residency with the next great practice changing project already in mind it may be a necessary evil. But if you can't parlay that into funding for projects you are passionate about then there seems to be a high risk of ending up as the "residency research director" shepherding dozens of s%&$# projects through to some meaningless, underpowered conclusion.

 

[Jlaw]

I make 50% less and work 100% more. The hours are well worth it, I have one of the greatest jobs in the world, but in academics you can become very susceptible to the grass is always greener phenomena.

uhhhh no thanks?

 

[GeneralVeers]

Nothing about the "academic part" of academics sounds any fun at all. I like working in community shops that are affiliated with residencies. That way you still get resident teaching, along with high pay, and self-sufficiency without all the unreimbursed BS of research and academic duties.

 

[Got Em]

Academic jobs are actually not that hard to land. I work part time at an academic institution and it's a lot of fun. You just wander around and say hi to people and watch other people do things while you don't chart and make money in the process. The pay sucks... but it's fun!

How did you get to work part time in academia? I wonder if it's possible to have a full time community job (120 hrs/month) and do part time in academia.

 

[Tenk]

How did you get to work part time in academia? I wonder if it's possible to have a full time community job (120 hrs/month) and do part time in academia.

I work at two different academic centers although one is kinda community/academic. All you have to do is be like: hey I want to work here part time and help you guys out. They will either be like: sure! Or like: na. My full time gig is community because I like money.

 

[deleted109597]

I gave up on core faculty due to infighting and bizarre scheduling. I went to part time clinical faculty and found that it's the best of all worlds. I can still teach as much as I want. I still lecture nationally and internationally. But I get to make my own schedule (which was a significant part of the bad blood between the lazy ****ers I worked with that never went anywhere) without having to beg time of other people. I still have academic access to journals so I can still read a ton.
I won't ever go back to core faculty. Too much administrative bull**** and departmental inertia refusing to change. It's like getting hypnotized in Office Space.