Advice Needed Accepted to Australian and Irish Medical schools

[MCMDcanadianpremed]

Hi Everybody,

I am a Canadian pre-med student who has been accepted to two Medical schools:
The National University of Ireland, Galway (Ireland)
and The University of Queensland (Australia)

I am in the process of trying to determine which of these schools I should attend. My goal is to return to Canada after medical school and I'm thinking about becoming a Pathologist.

I wanted to get some advice on which school I should attend, more specifically which is better for a CSA (Canadian Studying Abroad) student wanting to return to Canada. Any students who have made a similar decision (AUS vs IRE - Coming back to Canada), are in the process of making a similar decision (which school your leaning towards) or are currently enrolled or graduated from and Irish or Australian medical school I would really appreciate your help. If you were accepted to NUIG or UQ and are planning on attending on of these schools let me know what led you to finalize your decision.

I would also not mind matching in America however Canada is my primary goal. Also, if anyone has any information or links to sites regarding CARMS match rates for Australian and Irish students for past years, besides the 2013 Irish match rates on the forums, please let me know.

Cost wise I know which is better, and I'm not to interested in the student life differences (UQ's campus looks like a vacation spot and NUIG looks like Hogwarts). I would mostly like to know about the postgraduate pros and cons.

Thanks in advance to anyone who helps outs!

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[abn632]

UQ or UQ-Ochsner? If UQ-Ochsner, do that one. If not, and you're dead set on going now, go to the one that's cheaper.

No matter what, understand that matching into Canada (even for a Canadian) is nearly impossible. Matching into the US for anything will be very difficult.

 

[lymphocyte]

For pathology, it probably doesn't matter. Having two years in the US is a huge boost (though it shuts you out of New York and the Australian system), but you could probably get away with just a month or two US clinical experience plus some research. You can also take the Royal College of Australian Pathologists exam as a medical student, and it looks great on ERAS. Be careful though, you'll VERY likely change your mind in medical school (everybody does).

The Australian exchange rate is very attractive.

UQ or UQ-Ochsner? If UQ-Ochsner, do that one. If not, and you're dead set on going now, go to the one that's cheaper.

No matter what, understand that matching into Canada (even for a Canadian) is nearly impossible. Matching into the US for anything will be very difficult.

What are you sources for that? Match rate back to Canada was around ~60% first round at my Australian school, including 2 OBGYN spots at University of Toronto and one guy at Sick Kids. Match rate back to the US was higher with one person even interviewing for Rad Onc needing a visa (though he matched to his first choice in IM). Everybody who wanted to stay in Australia got a spot (around 100K as a PGY1, 6 weeks vacation, salary packaging to reduce tax burden, 12% matching for retirement, 100% free healthcare, etc.). There is self-selection bias, but almost everybody got a job. The only people who didn't 1) really shouldn't have been in medical school in the first place or 2) planned very, very badly.

OP, please PM for more details. It's not a cake-walk. You will suffer. You will be miserable. You will be stressed out. But you'll probably be okay in the end. Especially for pathology.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Moving to international

 

[MCMDcanadianpremed]

Thank you for the reply and the information.

Just to further elaborate on my situation, I got into UQ not Ochsner so I am assuming I will not have the 2 years in America thing as a part of my program. However with UQ I have read on their website that they are affiliated with Queens university in Canada and that you can do electives there during your first year and during phase 2 (years 3 and 4). I'm pretty sure those are electives you need to set up on your own, and are for the top students so I'll need to maintain a high average. NUIG also has the option for taking electives in Canada as well (again based on your merit in medical school) but they do not mention any affiliated schools.

SO if UQ does mention having ties with Queens is that a better situation than NUIG, will I have a better chance of gaining electives in Canada with UQ? (and therefore getting the much needed experience in Canada that could help me during the time I'm applying for residency). Or is applying for electives literally the same for both the schools regardless of the affiliated schools mentioned (good grades and your more likely to get the elective you want)?

Also lymphocyte, if you don't mind me asking, what Australian university are you currently attending and how did you or are you setting up electives (easy or hard process etc...)?

OH and thank you administrator for moving the thread to the appropriate location!

 

[lymphocyte]

Thank you for the reply and the information.

Just to further elaborate on my situation, I got into UQ not Ochsner so I am assuming I will not have the 2 years in America thing as a part of my program. However with UQ I have read on their website that they are affiliated with Queens university in Canada and that you can do electives there during your first year and during phase 2 (years 3 and 4). I'm pretty sure those are electives you need to set up on your own, and are for the top students so I'll need to maintain a high average. NUIG also has the option for taking electives in Canada as well (again based on your merit in medical school) but they do not mention any affiliated schools.

SO if UQ does mention having ties with Queens is that a better situation than NUIG, will I have a better chance of gaining electives in Canada with UQ? (and therefore getting the much needed experience in Canada that could help me during the time I'm applying for residency). Or is applying for electives literally the same for both the schools regardless of the affiliated schools mentioned (good grades and your more likely to get the elective you want)?

Also lymphocyte, if you don't mind me asking, what Australian university are you currently attending and how did you or are you setting up electives (easy or hard process etc...)?

OH and thank you administrator for moving the thread to the appropriate location!

PM me but I did not go to UQ. Electives weren't too bad for my school.

For pathology, I'd take UQ over Ireland simply because you'd likely have a second option for internship (RPR, CMI, etc.). Most internationals end up getting sucked into staying for a variety of reasons....

 

[Medstart108]

I would go with Ireland, closer to home, easier to get electives and Irish grads match pretty well back home (Aus as well). I think it could go either way but match rates for Ireland are great.

 

[deleted390966]

If it's not UQ-Ochsner, go to Ireland. Much cheaper, much closer to home. There's no advantage that UQ has over Ireland.

Edit: Choose the school where you can see yourself fit in. About electives: Caribbean grads do full two years in the US but no doubt that residency directors respect Irish grads more. So I wouldn't suggest choosing a school just for these two years.

 

[lymphocyte]

If it's not UQ-Ochsner, go to Ireland. Much cheaper, much closer to home. There's no advantage that UQ has over Ireland.

What's the backup if you don't match out of Ireland? I know you might be able to secure Foundation training, but how many non-EU citizens get past that? At least with Australia, there's a decent chance you can stay. Can you get a SRMO spot in Australia with Foundation training in Ireland? Genuinely curious.

 

[mcat_taker]

What's the backup if you don't match out of Ireland? I know you might be able to secure Foundation training, but how many non-EU citizens get past that? At least with Australia, there's a decent chance you can stay. Can you get a SRMO spot in Australia with Foundation training in Ireland? Genuinely curious.

I would choose UQ if money isn't a factor. There are around 80 Canadians at UQ in this year's class and match rates have been good (don't know specific numbers though). Last time I checked NUIG only takes 25 internationals total a year (I could be wrong), just the fact that you will have a bigger support system with more Canadians at UQ and more of them applying back to Canada seems to me like a better option.

 

[deleted390966]

What's the backup if you don't match out of Ireland? I know you might be able to secure Foundation training, but how many non-EU citizens get past that? At least with Australia, there's a decent chance you can stay. Can you get a SRMO spot in Australia with Foundation training in Ireland? Genuinely curious.

There's no backup. Going overseas is a huge risk no matter where you go. Almost all Irish grads match in a 2-year period post-graduation according to the data which you can find in UK-Ireland forum.
There's no decent chance you can stay in Australia. It's equally tough. You are ranked last as an International just like in Ireland which means you get a spot after everybody else has matched. There is a residency shortage in Australia. Just google it. There are posts in the Australia forum about it as well.
https://www.amsa.org.au/advocacy/internship-crisis/
https://ama.com.au/ausmed/australia’s-internship-crisis-national-process

 

[lymphocyte]

There's no backup. Going overseas is a huge risk no matter where you go. Almost all Irish grads match in a 2-year period post-graduation according to the data which you can find in UK-Ireland forum.
There's no decent chance you can stay in Australia. It's equally tough. You are ranked last as an International just like in Ireland which means you get a spot after everybody else has matched. Also, have you heard about the Moratorium that requires foreign grads to work for 10 years in an underserved area in Australia before you are fully licensed?

I know about the 2-year Foundation series; I'm asking specifically about what comes next for non-EU citizens.

There's a 50-70% chance you can stay in Australia permanently and persue specialist training on par with any Australian citizen. Is that true in Ireland?

Yes, I have heard about the moratorium. I in fact live here. You have the details wrong. It's 10 years before you can claim Medicare rebates in certain urban areas (you're unrestricted to work privately anywhere). Rural training counts against the moratorium, "underserved" areas are actually as close as 50 miles from Sydney or Brisbane, and Australia's a big and gorgeous country that has more than just 5 cities.

I have no dog in this hunt. I just want to help OP and any future medical students who might stumble across this forum. So I'm very happy to be corrected, enlightened, etc.

 

[deleted390966]

There's a 50-70% chance you can stay in Australia permanently and persue specialist training on par with any Australian citizen. Is that true in Ireland?

Yes, I have heard about the moratorium. I in fact live here. Rural training counts against it, "underserved" areas are in fact as close as 50 miles from Sydney, and Australia's a big and gorgeous country that's more than just 5 cities.

I have no dog in this hunt. I just want to help OP and any future medical students who might stumble across this forum. So I'm very happy to be corrected, enlightened, etc.

May I ask where the 50-70% number comes from? How many spots are available to internationals per year? Btw, I edited my post before I read your post, so look at the two links in my post. Basically for Ireland, no EU passport = next to no chance. I wouldn't say "zero chance" but the competition is stiff as hundreds of international grads fight for <20 spots each year. But I don't think Australia is any better than Ireland TBH.

 

[lymphocyte]

May I ask where the 50-70% number comes from? How many spots are available to internationals per year? Btw, I edited my post before I read your post, so look at the two links in my post. Basically for Ireland, no EU passport = next to no chance. I wouldn't say "zero chance" but the competition is stiff as hundreds of international grads fight for <20 spots each year. But I don't think Australia is any better than Ireland TBH.

4 years worth of our school's match data and the HETI internship audit, which anyone can Google.

As a plug for my school, our Dean goes to bat for us every single year, making phone calls, etc. Everyone in the past 2 years who wanted a job got one. And not just in the boonies either but even at some internationally regarded hospitals with strong research programmes. Is this true for Ireland?

The only unemployed PGY1 I personally know literally rejected two Australian job offers because they only wanted to match in Canada (for good family reasons, not to knock him or her).

To the OP, the best possible option is really Melbourne (not my school). They guarantee that all of their graduates get preference even over locals from other states, and their system is merit-based on top of that. Do any Irish schools offer that?

The internship tsunami came and went and Australia fixed it in typically fair and pragmatic Australian fashion with the CMI programme. It's worth reading about.

I can't guarantee that you'll be able to stay, but I'm conveying what I've actually experienced and researched in the past four years.

Australia (as far as I can tell) >> Ireland. I'm very happy with my decision to come here.

 

[bashwell]

I'm in Australia. I can't comment on the medical education of Ireland, but I know a lot about Australia.

However, what's also important to keep in mind is what happens after you graduate from med school in Australia or Ireland. Sure, you want to go back to Canada, but what happens if you can't or don't want to return to Canada for whatever reason (even if it's just temporary, for example, for your internship)? In that case, is Australia or Ireland better for IMGs getting and working as an intern? Which has better jobs?

Anecdotally, there are lots of UK and Irish physicians here. It seems to me UK physicians are fleeing the NHS (and its equivalents) in droves (e.g., witness all the recent strikes and protests in the UK). I've heard the UK has worse working conditions, worse pay, etc than Australia. The current British government seems to want to privatise the NHS. Regardless it seems the direction physicians are moving is leaving the UK for Australia rather than leaving Australia for the UK. But that's just anecdotal. Best to check it out for yourself before you decide.

 

[MCMDcanadianpremed]

Thank you all so much for your replies. Still a crazy hard decision but I'm starting to get a better understanding of what school would be better from your guys posts (and my own research - been emailing each school like crazy, they probably hate me now lol). I also have family in Australia, specifically Perth, so though I would rather get back to Canada (I like Hockey a lot) I wouldn't be crazy devastated if I had to stay in Australia and would never turn down a intern position in Australia if I got one (plus I hear it boosts your application and helps out when your applying again). UQ also boasts affiliations with Queens and Northern Ontario Medical Schools and I'm assuming that may come in handy when I want to do electives (and some sweet reference letters) in Canada during my 1st (observership), 3rd and 4th years (if anyone knows if the affiliation thing isn't helpful let me know - I emailed UQ's director asking this question so if I found out soon I'll write what I find here to help out others). Plus, UQ being ranked very high in research is a plus as I want to go into clinical pathology and academic medicine.

Still making sure though I don't choose without knowing all the facts about NUIG (been emailing them too), UQ and whats better post graduation!

Again thanks to everyone posting in this thread! You guys are all being very helpful.

 

[mcat_taker]

Thank you all so much for your replies. Still a crazy hard decision but I'm starting to get a better understanding of what school would be better from your guys posts (and my own research - been emailing each school like crazy, they probably hate me now lol). I also have family in Australia, specifically Perth, so though I would rather get back to Canada (I like Hockey a lot) I wouldn't be crazy devastated if I had to stay in Australia and would never turn down a intern position in Australia if I got one (plus I hear it boosts your application and helps out when your applying again). UQ also boasts affiliations with Queens and Northern Ontario Medical Schools and I'm assuming that may come in handy when I want to do electives (and some sweet reference letters) in Canada during my 1st (observership), 3rd and 4th years (if anyone knows if the affiliation thing isn't helpful let me know - I emailed UQ's director asking this question so if I found out soon I'll write what I find here to help out others). Plus, UQ being ranked very high in research is a plus as I want to go into clinical pathology and academic medicine.

Still making sure though I don't choose without knowing all the facts about NUIG (been emailing them too), UQ and whats better post graduation!

Again thanks to everyone posting in this thread! You guys are all being very helpful.

Sounds like your doing the right thing. NUIG is definitely cheaper and flights back home will be cheaper, but at the end of the day I think both options are great

 

[MCMDcanadianpremed]

Thanks Mcat-taker, with such a big decision I'm making sure I don't make any mistakes or overlook any information. Also lymphocyte thank you for posting about the CMI program that Australia has introduced, I have read through the program guidelines and the program seem awesome especially since it involves internship positions only for internationals. I want to come back to Canada or America but I want a good back up plan and Australia seems to have one with the CMI program.

Oh and lymphocyte I just want to confirm that I can apply for Australian internships through both the CMI program and the regular method right? If so that really improves a Med students chances at getting an internship in Australia.

 

[lymphocyte]

Thanks Mcat-taker, with such a big decision I'm making sure I don't make any mistakes or overlook any information. Also lymphocyte thank you for posting about the CMI program that Australia has introduced, I have read through the program guidelines and the program seem awesome especially since it involves internship positions only for internationals. I want to come back to Canada or America but I want a good back up plan and Australia seems to have one with the CMI program.

Oh and lymphocyte I just want to confirm that I can apply for Australian internships through both the CMI program and the regular method right? If so that really improves a Med students chances at getting an internship in Australia.

Hey no worries. Yeah, you're only eligible for CMI if you don't get anything else. Tough decision. I'm always a PM away if you need help!

 

[mcat_taker]

Thanks Mcat-taker, with such a big decision I'm making sure I don't make any mistakes or overlook any information. Also lymphocyte thank you for posting about the CMI program that Australia has introduced, I have read through the program guidelines and the program seem awesome especially since it involves internship positions only for internationals. I want to come back to Canada or America but I want a good back up plan and Australia seems to have one with the CMI program.

Oh and lymphocyte I just want to confirm that I can apply for Australian internships through both the CMI program and the regular method right? If so that really improves a Med students chances at getting an internship in Australia.

Oh btw, Isn't NUIG a 5 year program? So you would lose a year?

 

[MCMDcanadianpremed]

Hey no worries. Yeah, you're only eligible for CMI if you don't get anything else. Tough decision. I'm always a PM away if you need help!

So you couldn't apply for the CMI program at the same time as your normal internship and residency applications you could only apply if you were unable to gain any other sort of internship or residency? Like would I need to show proof of not getting an internship to apply to the CMI program (meaning I would gain a CMI internship later on since I have to wait for the results of my other applications)?

So the CMI program is like a back up to the back up (interning in Australia being the back up), which is still pretty good since interning in Australia isn't as hard as Ireland and even if for some reason I don't get a position I have the CMI program to fall back on.

Thanks for the info lymphocyte and the best wishes!

You've been crazy helpful during this deciding period, thanks again!

 

[MCMDcanadianpremed]

Oh btw, Isn't NUIG a 5 year program? So you would lose a year?

Yea it is 5 years as opposed to UQ's 4, another reason why I'm leaning towards UQ more. Don't really want an extra year of medical school.

 

[bulaian]

Hey no worries. Yeah, you're only eligible for CMI if you don't get anything else. Tough decision. I'm always a PM away if you need help!

I thought CMIs were only funded until 2018?

From the CMI Program Guideline: "In August 2013, the Investing in Medical Internships initiative was announced as part of the Coalition’s Policy to Support Australia’s Health System – a commitment of $40 million (GST exclusive) over four years, from 2013-14, for up to 100 internships a year. "

I couldn't find any information on whether or not funding would be extended for those graduating after 2018, but I'd be thrilled to hear if you have information that says otherwise!

 

[PeculiarPanda]

Hey everyone! Quick question.

Whats your take on US DO vs Australia MD? I understand how the match is near impossible to get back to Canada but if you secure a res position for 2 years in Australia, are you fully accredited and allowed to return to Canada without much of a fuss?

Cheers

 

[gyngyn]

A new thread would be a good choice for a new question.

 

[bearded frog]

Hey everyone! Quick question.

Whats your take on US DO vs Australia MD? I understand how the match is near impossible to get back to Canada but if you secure a res position for 2 years in Australia, are you fully accredited and allowed to return to Canada without much of a fuss?

Cheers

Its a fuss. Start here: Recognized Training | Alternative Pathways to Certification in Family Medicine | Education | The College of Family Physicians Canada

 

[ConfusedChemist]

Hey everyone! Quick question.

Whats your take on US DO vs Australia MD? I understand how the match is near impossible to get back to Canada but if you secure a res position for 2 years in Australia, are you fully accredited and allowed to return to Canada without much of a fuss?

Cheers

no. Those 2 years would essentially be a waste and you'd be treated just like you hadn't done them. Neither option will be that different Re coming to Canada, but DO gives you better options of getting a residency in the US that's actually recognised in Canada

 

[Domperidone]

What confused chemist said. Think of them as prelim years. No one in Australia finishes "residency" or gets fully accredited in 2 yrs. Even 4 is a stretch for FM, but that maybe doable. Provided you want FM.

Addit: if you did two yrs of house officer or "resident" yrs after grad in Australia then apply to North America it'd be applying for the match as if you were final yr in med school. Except that you will have worked 2 yrs.