Advice to the Hopeful: Going for Otolaryngology.

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Looking for some advice from the seasoned...

I'm an MS2 who LOVES ENT, but worried that I'm not prepared to achieve the necessary USMLE STEP 1 scores to be competitive for a future residency in ENT. From what I've gathered speaking with ENT residents at my school, many of them did a research year in order to strengthen their applications before applying. I have the opportunity to become involved with some promising research projects within ENT and am considering the idea of taking a research year between MS2 and MS3 in order to build my resume, further develop relationships within ENT, and have more time to prepare for STEP 1 (don't want the 'doors to close')

I'm wondering if anybody has taken a similar route or if any applicants/residents/program directors could share any meaningful insights or experiences.

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If the research is something really promising and you get to write and/or present, then do it. However, you still need to do well on Step I, otherwise it will look like you took a year off to make your scores look good.

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233 step 1, half honors, half high passes in 3rd year. Was going for anesthesia, but fell in love with ENT. Is it too late to switch at this point? Would I even have a chance?
 
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Yes you would need to take a year off since you have had probably no real contact with your home dept (if you even have one). You'd be way below avg on all metrics.

Research? Any pubs?
 
Trying to see if there is anything I could do now to enhance my chances.
 
Yes you would need to take a year off since you have had probably no real contact with your home dept (if you even have one). You'd be way below avg on all metrics.

Research? Any pubs?
No research or pubs in ENT. But do have some in non ENT fields. Met with ENT dept. chair and he suggested a July/August subI would be a decent option and an away. Agree with being low average on all metrics. So there wouldn't be a point in trying?
 
Well you could apply and there have certainly been people with your stats that have matched.

It's more would you rather gamble and go for it this year with dubious chances or take a year and set yourself up for success....it's only a year of your life and the research and connections wouldnt be wasted if you match next season.

If you'd be just as happy in gas, you could look into dual applying (I dont know about anesthesia away rotation preferences). Or just scramble into it....tons of open spots last year.
 
Well you could apply and there have certainly been people with your stats that have matched.

It's more would you rather gamble and go for it this year with dubious chances or take a year and set yourself up for success....it's only a year of your life and the research and connections wouldnt be wasted if you match next season.

If you'd be just as happy in gas, you could look into dual applying (I dont know about anesthesia away rotation preferences). Or just scramble into it....tons of open spots last year.
Solid point. How much do you think a productive year off would increase my chances?
 
Solid point. How much do you think a productive year off would increase my chances?

Nobody can answer that for you. Depends on how productive you are, who you do the year with and whether they become your advocate, who you meet at conferences, etc etc. But my impression from meeting other students is that it helps quite a bit if you apply yourself and dont treat it as a "year off".
 
Rising MS4 Applying in ORL looking for some advice:

Stats:
Step 1: 250+
3rd year clerkships: All honors
AOA

Research: zip (2 posters, but nothing in ENT). Doing research now at home institution but nothing will be submitted before applications go out.

LORs: Chairman generic letter, Vice Chair (hopefully pretty good), Young attending (actually knows me). The young attending seems interested in advocating for me. Chair/Vice Chair are hard to get a read on.

My partner just got pregnant
, so I cannot afford not to match. Obvs I will apply broadly and look to go anywhere. Fortunately, she has a pretty chill job and works from home. Do you guys think I need to double apply to ensure I match, or should I be ok?

I really love ORL and it is legit one of the only rotations I have enjoyed in medical school. That said, I cannot financially afford to Unmatched.

What are thoughts/advice?
 
I really love ORL and it is legit one of the only rotations I have enjoyed in medical school. That said, I cannot financially afford to Unmatched.

What are thoughts/advice?

Go for it, you sound (on paper) like a competitive applicant. Strengthen the research aspect as much as you can (case reports and quick retrospective chart reviews can be done in a weekend).

I don't understand the financial issue. Whether or not you match into ENT, you'll presumably be making the same intern's salary next year. Unmatched does not mean no job, it just means you scramble into a prelim surgery spot or another specialty. For someone with your numbers, you'll find something.
 
From another thread- copying in here for current/future applicants.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/a-couple-of-questions.1155084/

Diversity is equally if not more important than case numbers. In fact, you should ask about "key indicator" cases. These are the cases that the Academy determines are the most essential cases ENT residents must know how to perform prior to graduation. Deficiencies in these cases often result in (among other things) probation of a program, loss of a resident (or denial of additional resident approvals). These are things like ethmoidectomies, mastoids, thyroids, neck dissections, etc. More important cases.

What program has the better experience - the program with an average of 1500 cases or the program with an average of 2000 cases? What if I told you the former program had residents that averaged 200 sinus surgeries, 200 mastoid/tymp-mastoids, 200 neck dissections, 200 laryngeal cases, 200 pedi neck cases, etc. while the other program had 500 tubes and tonsils, 500 DLs/bronchoscopies/esophagoscopies and residents were counting sinus scopes and laryngeal scopes as procedures? Make sure you know how diverse case load is.

You should look for clinic-OR balance. There are some programs that are all OR and no clinic. This is bad. I've never met a doctor that can efficiently run a clinic without ever having to learn how to manage a load of patients. I've met residents who are excellent surgeons who couldn't work up a patient if the steps were written down on a piece of paper.

Look for diversity of faculty - you want representation from all the subspecialties.

Look for research experience; make sure you look strongly at programs that give you experience doing research.

Look for programs that have regular didactics. This can be grand rounds, M&M, cochlia, resident/attending grand rounds, visiting lecturers, etc.

Look for resident cohesiveness. They don't have to all be lovey-dovey or go to parties together, but if they all get along well, that's a good sign. Hard to gauge while on an interview because everyone behaves well.

Look for new hires. Find out who has left in the last 5 years and why. Who's on the verge of retirement?

Is ENT a division of surgery or a department? Seek the latter program.

How is the hospital system? Is the hospital recently acquired or has it been a stable system?

How about trauma? Is it split among plastics, ENT and oral surgery?

Don't ask about call schedules; it makes you seem lazy. It is what it is.

Don't ask about book allowances and whether you get loupes or not. This is petty when juxtaposed to the educational value of a residency program.

Will the program pay for your trips to meetings if you present? What if you don't present? (Formulate this question to make it sound like you're not asking about the money.)

What is the publication track record of residents?

How are the fellows integrated into the program with the residents (if there are fellows)?

How many residents go into fellowships each year and what fellowships are awarded?



I don't remember what I asked, but if I were able to do it again, I'd ask about what I stated above.



Attendings being jerks or generally being disinterested in me. One attending picked up the wrong folder and started asking me questions about my experience as an Outward Bound instructor (I never was). When I was applying, I got annoyed that attendings hadn't read my application closely, but being an attending now and having reviewed many applications each year, it's tough to keep them all straight or remember every detail.

Look at the department library. Look at the age of the books. Look at the conference room facilities. Pay close attention to the equipment in the clinic -- is it modern? Do they have aged microscopes? Do they lack sinus video equipment? Look for nurses, PAs and medical assistants in clinic. Are they around helping docs or are they no where to be found? Look at the ORs (if you get a chance). Old equipment? New equipment?

What is the age range of the faculty? Are they all old? All young? (Both are less than ideal.)



Probably many.
 
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hi neutropeniaboy-

first thanks for the great advice! i'm about to finish my MS1 year, and my grades have been decent, but not all Honors. i took some time off between undergrad and med school (financial consulting...completely different) and really had to learn how to study again. summary: 2 passes, 1 HP, 1 honors (this current block, trending that way) for first year.

I think I've finally figured out how to approach medical school studying, so i expect to work my butt off and honor everything 2nd year.

Research/letters: I've gotten to know the Chair of my ENT department really well through an IRB we're working on(but we don't have a home residency program just yet), have been working with another academic ENT in our department on an IRB, and should have my name on a manuscript in the cell biology dept as well. I plan on continuing these projects into my 2nd year and beyond. This summer I'm researching at an external institution (one with a residency program), and my future PI there has stated I can get on a few papers as contributing author. Summary: I should have a great LOR from my chair, one academic ENT from my dept, and my PI this summer.

My question- My med school places a lot of emphasis on 1st-year grades for AOA, so I'm thinking I likely will not get it since I have those two passes (btw, pass is anything below 87 for us...I got 86's in both "passed" classes). Should I start thinking about ruling out ENT solely based on the fact that I likely will not get Junior AOA?

Plan on killing 2nd year, STEP and rotations, of course, but the past is the past and if I need to adjust expectations based on it, rather start early!

Thanks a lot, and once again, your post/advice are amazing.
 
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@neutropeniaboy or others, quick question - how important do you think specifically wet lab/basic science research is compared to clinical research? I'm much more interested in the latter, but I am not unwilling to do some of the former if it's significantly more helpful.
 
@neutropeniaboy or others, quick question - how important do you think specifically wet lab/basic science research is compared to clinical research? I'm much more interested in the latter, but I am not unwilling to do some of the former if it's significantly more helpful.

Basic science research is not significantly more helpful than clinical research. It often requires a much larger time investment to generate a publication or presentation as well.
 
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Basic science research is not significantly more helpful than clinical research. It often requires a much larger time investment to generate a publication or presentation as well.

Thanks for responding. People on the pre-allo and allo forums are all about the wet lab stuff. I really prefer clinical research though.
 
It depends upon the characteristics of those doing the interviews and the file reviews. If a member of the department is a PhD, he or she might be more interested in basic science research. The MDs may not have any specific weight thrown in either direction, but it may favor (or work against you) if the research is done in the field of that practiced by the MD.

Those are a couple of the nuances.

It's great to have research as a medical student, and either category is fine. Having looked at the applications over the years, more medical students do clinical research. A medical student is more likely to drive a clinical project than a basic science project. If a student drives a basic science project, that usually takes a great deal of effort and would impress me more than a clinical project driven by a medical student -- all other things being equal. Most students are "parts" of existing projects and I view the effort as being similar and you get points for participation.

An interviewer who pays attention to the details will ask you about your research, and if it becomes clear that you did minimal work then neither will weigh heavily and may even work against you if you can't talk intelligently about your research.
 
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Thanks for the insight, your posts are really helpful!
I've worked in an ENT clinic at a large academic institution for the past three years and have fallen in love with the practice. I've been able to contribute to a research project (pub coming soon) and will possibly also write a case report. I'll be starting MS1 this summer at a school with an ENT department, though not that large and I fear not that competitive. Of course I plan on doing everything I can to succeed in the following years (and will keep an open mind to other specialties), but naturally am starting to think ahead to residency applications should I wish to pursue ENT. I am planning on listing any/all publications I have associated with this job but in applying for residencies could I also ask the otologist I currently work w for a letter? Or would it have been too long since I worked there for the letter to be meaningful? Thanks!
 
Certainly reasonable to ask this mentor for a LOR. You may come to develop, however, more meaningful relationships in medical school. Nevertheless, you should keep in touch with this person and ask for a letter when it is time, especially if he or she will write a good one.
 
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I was hoping to get advice on away rotations --- my home institution is in the mid-atlantic but I'm originally from AZ. Would doing one or two away rotations on the West Coast or back home make a meaningful difference in my chances at matching out West? I'll apply broadly either way.

I'm a competitive but not exceptional candidate thus far, Step 1 was 254 and at the beginning of M3 I have 2 chart reviews in the works and some other clinical projects ongoing. For whatever its worth I will likely couples match and my significant other has family in California.
 
You're a pretty good candidate on paper.

I would not do an away rotation to increase your chances at getting into a certain region. That thought is almost meaningless to me when I hear about students doing that. Go to a place you think you might want to be at for 5 years. Don't go to #1 Residency Program to get a letter from the chair; these are often 1 paragraph long and useless. Go to a place where you can shine and the faculty there will want to have you train. But, you have to be 100% committed to that rotation when you get there. If you don't show the "first in, last out" mentality and demonstrate that you are "The Man", your time spent anywhere may be costly.

Forget about geography for the moment. This requires a lot of thought and sacrifice. It's 5 years, which is short in your career.
 
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It depends upon the characteristics of those doing the interviews and the file reviews. If a member of the department is a PhD, he or she might be more interested in basic science research. The MDs may not have any specific weight thrown in either direction, but it may favor (or work against you) if the research is done in the field of that practiced by the MD.

Those are a couple of the nuances.

It's great to have research as a medical student, and either category is fine. Having looked at the applications over the years, more medical students do clinical research. A medical student is more likely to drive a clinical project than a basic science project. If a student drives a basic science project, that usually takes a great deal of effort and would impress me more than a clinical project driven by a medical student -- all other things being equal. Most students are "parts" of existing projects and I view the effort as being similar and you get points for participation.

An interviewer who pays attention to the details will ask you about your research, and if it becomes clear that you did minimal work then neither will weigh heavily and may even work against you if you can't talk intelligently about your research.

Thanks! How do you feel about ENT related research versus not necessarily related research, at least explicitly? I have some contacts in cancer research, but its GI cancer not head and neck or anything, and I am also very interested in healthcare delivery/disparity related research. I'm not 100% set on ENT, it is just on my list of interests at this point, but if I do decide on it, will unrelated research have been wasted time?
 
How much does med school rank matter when it comes to matching into ENT? I have an option in the Top 5, but I also really like some schools in the Top 25. Both have research prowess, but obviously one has more reputation and cache nationwide than the other. They're both in CA, and I'd love to stay west coast for residency. Will I jeopardize my career (ENT or otherwise) by choosing a "lower ranked" school that wins me over in terms of lifestyle/location and has a few mentors I already know? Definitely putting the cart before the horse in more ways than one, but I have personal experience as a patient in otolaryngology and lots of shadowing experience, so at this moment I feel a personal draw to the field.
 
How much does med school rank matter when it comes to matching into ENT? I have an option in the Top 5, but I also really like some schools in the Top 25. Both have research prowess, but obviously one has more reputation and cache nationwide than the other. They're both in CA, and I'd love to stay west coast for residency. Will I jeopardize my career (ENT or otherwise) by choosing a "lower ranked" school that wins me over in terms of lifestyle/location and has a few mentors I already know? Definitely putting the cart before the horse in more ways than one, but I have personal experience as a patient in otolaryngology and lots of shadowing experience, so at this moment I feel a personal draw to the field.
Choose whichever one you like better. Does not matter. There is some regional bias (due to people knowing people, word of mouth, etc) so that would be the only thing.

Your best shots will be
1. Your home institution
2. Anywhere you did an away (double edge sword being if you suck then you definitely aren't going there for residency)
3. Schools in your region
4. Anywhere else

These are in rank order. My only caveat is if your goal is to be an academic ENT, choosing a medical school where you will be productive with research will help land a like institution for residency. These do tend to be the name schools for what its worth. However, "name" in ENT often is different than say GI, IM, etc.
 
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Thank you guys! Also I am curious.. what is UCLA’s reputation in ENT?
 
@neutropeniaboy

I was wondering if you could provide some quick edits to your original post. Do you still see 240 as a good score for ENT applicants? Do you have any opinion on what happened last two years with some spots going unfilled? Looking at the match data, it seems like ~80% of people match as long as they have scores of 230+. Thanks for taking the time and making the original post and answering all the questions on the thread!
 
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