Affected by DO-associated SDN negativity

[sparos]

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[PlutoBoy]

Do DO. No one cares about the MD/DO thing after residency.

 

[Mad Jack]

Do DO. No one cares about the MD/DO thing after residency.

That's great but it's wrong. Academic medicine is harder to break into without coming from an academic program, and a strong one at that. And your fields of choice are far more limited in regard to residency, so it doesn't really matter what people think of you after residency if you can't get the residency you want to begin with.

 

[NurWollen]

Go DO.

 

[PlutoBoy]

That's great but it's wrong. Academic medicine is harder to break into without coming from an academic program, and a strong one at that. And your fields of choice are far more limited in regard to residency, so it doesn't really matter what people think of you after residency if you can't get the residency you want to begin with.

That is true. However, if I didn't have the chance to go to a MD school I wouldn't break a sweat thinking about DO school. At the end of the day you are still a doctor and there are many DOs in highly competitive fields. Will you need to work harder? Yes. Is it impossible? No.

First things first. Complete medical school and then worry about the rest. My $0.02.

 

[Mad Jack]

So op, you're in a bit of a bind. Do you want to do another cycle, being aware that you're basically an auto-reject for every DO school out there from here on out and that if an MD program doesn't take you you're screwed and will never become a physician, or do you want to go DO and definitely become a physician but have fewer options?

As to medical journalism, that's something you can do as a DO lol. No one cares in the journalism world, as regularly writing docs are pretty tough to find.

 

[Mad Jack]

That is true. However, if I didn't have the chance to go to a MD school I wouldn't break a sweat thinking about DO school. At the end of the day you are still a doctor and there are many DOs in highly competitive fields. Will you need to work harder? Yes. Is it impossible? No.

First things first. Complete medical school and then worry about the rest. My $0.02.

In regard to certain fields, it is nearly impossible. But those fields wouldn't be a cakewalk for MDs either, so there's that. OP, keep in mind you only get to take the Steps and pass once, unlike the MCAT, so a bad score is a brand you wear until you get that Match. It is unlikely someone who took multiple retirees to get a 30 would land the scores needed to do whatever they want in one shot, do your options are probably going to end up limited no matter what you choose. Hence, don't think MD=all the options, as you'll find not being in a top school or having a lower Step score are limiting as well.

 

[sparos]

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[FrkyBgStok]

Go MD. In my mind, the DO and MD are 100% equal because I am not interested in changing the world, I am not interested in something very competitive, and I am from a DO accepting region. To other people, they aren't equal, and that is completely fine. If you want to change the world, you need to go to huge academic programs, so even MD doesn't equal MD. It all depends on your career. But if along the path you get your MD and then try to move forward with something and fail, you will feel unlucky or unqualified. If you get the DO and fail at something, you will blame the DO.

You have to ask yourself what level of success you want. If you want to change the lives of your city, DO is fine. If you want to change the lives of the nation, you need a better school. If you are ok with opening a clinic in any country vs. a specific country, the decision is different. But for any of them, if there will be any animosity towards the DO degree in any way or for any reason, you should go MD.

 

[Oldenuff2nobetr]

The smart choice, I am sure most people would say, is to take the DO degree and run. Especially since I do not necessarily have my heart set on neurosurgery or anything. I appreciate the advice regarding the steps, as I already know that I am not a naturally brilliant test taker.

I am just hoping that maybe having a DO degree is not nearly as damning as people make it out to be. I just often feel that I would like to enjoy a certain amount of flexibility in my career, whether that means doing research I am interested in or starting a clinic in another country (random thoughts I've had). I fear discrimination in achieving certain career goals, even apart from landing a good residency - based on the letters behind my name. Granted, perhaps these worries are better suited for a more specific thread. Regardless - thank you.

If you want to give yourself the best options as a DO, look up what each school you have an acceptance is known for. In general East Coast DO schools have good ties with their MD counterparts as the research community out here is tight so you might have a better option to land a competitive MD residency. I am from the west coast and came out here to the east coast and don't regret it one bit. My school (I won't name drop, but PM me if you want specifics) is research heavy for a DO school and I am doing Neuro clinical trials this summer, so make sure you network in the field you are interested in.

Also, study for boards starting day 1 of med school. Don't get caught up in partying/socializing during first year and start falling behind (it happens).

Finally, on the journalism note, my wife (also a 1st year), and I pitched a medical radio show to our affiliated undergraduate University and they loved it so now we are on local radio and interviewing experts (also making connections), every week.

The only real limiting factor is your motivation, keep that in mind...

 

[kenjixshadow]

Also, study for boards starting day 1 of med school. Don't get caught up in partying/socializing during first year and start falling behind (it happens).

This is a terrible advice. You're welcome to torture yourself with boards studying from day 1, but don't put that amateurish mindset upon a yet to start medical student.
OP, don't follow this crap. Remember to have fun and de-stress yourself. Make some good friends and have good supporting casts. They will help you lots and lots when you need it. Worry about board later. SDNers sometimes tell you to start studying for board in 2nd year. That's fine, but starting from day 1 when you have yet to get your feet wet? That's just foolish.

 

[Seth Joo]

It's in the title. Here is my basic story:

I have applied to medical school 3 times, first 2 only MD, this year MD/DO. The first time was a mistake, I was young, I had a poor MCAT. The second time I applied, I was rejected following one interview. This year I have been accepted to several DO schools and have been placed on "hold" following 3 MD interviews. I used to live in a "difficult" state in terms of in state acceptances, and this year gained residency in a "lucky" state as some may call it (hence the three in state MD interviews). These could lead to acceptances, but rejections are more likely. I have an MCAT of 30 (multiple retakes) cpga of 3.6. My application is a heavy mix of volunteer, shadowing, research, and other eclectic activities. Admissions has specifically told me I have great letters and experiences. Here is my question:

I have always relished in the idea of practicing medicine, but am terrified of the idea that I will be closed out of several career opportunities with a DO degree. What if I really want to get into medical journalism for some reason? What if I am driven towards academic medicine? According to the threads on this site, it seems that by signing up for a DO degree, I embark on the path to learning medicine, but shut myself out of a whole plethora of potentially interesting medicine-related career paths. I do not want this. However, I am at the point where applying again to school is foolish and embarrassing. I am not sure if I am seeking reassurance or advice, and perhaps I will receive neither. I would appreciate honest thoughts and strategies, not some BS response that sounds smart or derails the thread.

Thank you all.

There is nothing wrong with being a DO, if you applied three times to MD schools and did not get in you are pretty much shut out of allopathic schools, might as well try DO schools. I tried twice applying to MD schools, wound up on the waiting list on both attempts. The second attempt I applied to DO schools as well, was very successful and went to a DO school.

Its true that for certain fields its harder to match as a DO, but at the end of the day, you get to call yourself a doctor.

There is a fine line between negative thinking and realistic thinking, I am the latter but many people here on SDN accuse me of the former.

 

[darknecrosforte]

Something else to consider: what if OP is the kind of person who would never stand a chance at getting "competitive" residencies/fellowships even IF accepted at a top MD school. There are many reasons such as wanting to have a close relationship with his/her own kids, not being a competitive person, not liking academia - aside from the statistical unlikelihood due to numbers. Beggars can't be choosers and in OP's own words, he isn't necessarily a strong test-taker. In the end, if you go for medicine, you must always be aware that you have a high chance of getting into primary care, no matter what you want initially and also whether you go MD or DO. If you are a beast and want plastics, ortho, etc., you'll have advantages as MD, but you still have to be a beast regardless.

 

[jordansetron]

I think you should just keep trucking on for MD. I have friends that are well qualified but still going on their 5th application cycle for allopathic. You are echoing what these people find important, and thats fine. But the last thing osteopathic medicine needs is another "well I couldnt get into MD so I had to go DO" story. Try not to think about how many years you've already spent trying to get into allopathic and what you could have done with that time. Dont give up now! Keep working hard to earn that MD degree which makes you 100% equal to the DO degree as far as being a fully licensed physician goes. DO schools are primary care oriented and thats not a secret so if you are uncomfortable with that then dont consider DO.

 

[darknecrosforte]

I think you should just keep trucking on for MD. I have friends that are well qualified but still going on their 5th application cycle for allopathic. You are echoing what these people find important, and thats fine. But the last thing osteopathic medicine needs is another "well I couldnt get into MD so I had to go DO" story. Try not to think about how many years you've already spent trying to get into allopathic and what you could have done with that time. Dont give up now! Keep working hard to earn that MD degree which makes you 100% equal to the DO degree as far as being a fully licensed physician goes. DO schools are primary care oriented and thats not a secret so if you are uncomfortable with that then dont consider DO.

Here's a secret secret: Medicine is primary care-oriented

 

[Userneedmoreinfo]

To the person that said you can't change the nation. There was a PCOM alumni that was the surgeon general of the US army. So get your facts right

 

[IslandStyle808]

Something else to consider: what if OP is the kind of person who would never stand a chance at getting "competitive" residencies/fellowships even IF accepted at a top MD school. There are many reasons such as wanting to have a close relationship with his/her own kids, not being a competitive person, not liking academia - aside from the statistical unlikelihood due to numbers. Beggars can't be choosers and in OP's own words, he isn't necessarily a strong test-taker. In the end, if you go for medicine, you must always be aware that you have a high chance of getting into primary care, no matter what you want initially and also whether you go MD or DO. If you are a beast and want plastics, ortho, etc., you'll have advantages as MD, but you still have to be a beast regardless.

All the more reason to go into an MD school if you are a poor test taker. There are people who match a better program with lower scores simply because they go to an MD institution.

However, in OPs case they have tried 3 times to get in and has acceptances to DO schools. It would be safer to take to acceptances and become a doctor. In the end, it is a value call and he will have to face the fact that if he drops those acceptances he will not get into those schools again.

 

[yanks26dmb]

If you want to give yourself the best options as a DO, look up what each school you have an acceptance is known for. In general East Coast DO schools have good ties with their MD counterparts as the research community out here is tight so you might have a better option to land a competitive MD residency. I am from the west coast and came out here to the east coast and don't regret it one bit. My school (I won't name drop, but PM me if you want specifics) is research heavy for a DO school and I am doing Neuro clinical trials this summer, so make sure you network in the field you are interested in.

Also, study for boards starting day 1 of med school. Don't get caught up in partying/socializing during first year and start falling behind (it happens).

Finally, on the journalism note, my wife (also a 1st year), and I pitched a medical radio show to our affiliated undergraduate University and they loved it so now we are on local radio and interviewing experts (also making connections), every week.

The only real limiting factor is your motivation, keep that in mind...

As an m1, I've been flirting with the idea of stidying for step 1 now. I'm doing very well in my classes but wonder if I could do more. What would you recommend an m1 do for board prep at this point? We just started cardiovascular and respiratory system based learning this semester...

 

[sparos]

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[22031 Alum]

OP, as one of those "negative" voices I say take the DO acceptance and run with it. My words of caution are mainly directed to those who have a choice between an MD and DO school, who may say something like "I won't have any advantages over DO if I go to a low-tier MD school, anyway," or "Well I don't want a competitive specialty anyway." The first statement is false- for reasons I've discussed before. Because of that, I don't want anyone to naively shut themselves out of opportunities, should the second statement become false- as often happens over the course of medical school. All that said, I am well aware that many applicants don't have such a choice. For various reasons, a DO school is their best shot at becoming a physician. Whatever your reasons for missing out on MD admissions x 3, I think you are one of those students. Do not pass up this opportunity.

 

[ortnakas]

Do you want to be a doctor, or do you specifically want to be an MD?

If you turn down DO acceptances, you might not get them later, and ruin your chances at being a doctor. While being a DO has its downsides, it's probably your best option. It's still possible to get into a competitive residency/field or academic medicine, and I think "medical journalism" is more about finding a niche than having the fanciest possible degree, so I don't see a DO holding you back there.

If you were a first-time applicant it MIGHT be worth a second shot at allopathic programs (although even then I recommend taking a DO acceptance and running with it), but in your situation as a multiple-time reapplicant, I'd only reapply if you think you'll regret not having the "prestige" of an MD more than you'll regret not being a physician at all.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Lets be realistic here. You have multiple retakes for the MCAT to reach a 30, 3 cycles where you have been unsuccessful at an MD acceptance and no research. Chances that you will ever be the type that as an MD can match a competitive surgical specialty or an academic researcher are very low. Take your DO acceptance and start moving forward in life before you chasing a fantasy hurts your reality.

 

[sparos]

OP, as one of those "negative" voices I say take the DO acceptance and run with it. My words of caution are mainly directed to those who have a choice between an MD and DO school, who may say something like "I won't have any advantages over DO if I go to a low-tier MD school, anyway," or "Well I don't want a competitive specialty anyway." The first statement is false- for reasons I've discussed before. Because of that, I don't want anyone to naively shut themselves out of opportunities, should the second statement become false- as often happens over the course of medical school. All that said, I am well aware that many applicants don't have such a choice. For various reasons, a DO school is their best shot at becoming a physician. Whatever your reasons for missing out on MD admissions x 3, I think you are one of those students. Do not pass up this opportunity.

Do you want to be a doctor, or do you specifically want to be an MD?

If you turn down DO acceptances, you might not get them later, and ruin your chances at being a doctor. While being a DO has its downsides, it's probably your best option. It's still possible to get into a competitive residency/field or academic medicine, and I think "medical journalism" is more about finding a niche than having the fanciest possible degree, so I don't see a DO holding you back there.

If you were a first-time applicant it MIGHT be worth a second shot at allopathic programs (although even then I recommend taking a DO acceptance and running with it), but in your situation as a multiple-time reapplicant, I'd only reapply if you think you'll regret not having the "prestige" of an MD more than you'll regret not being a physician at all.

You both make great points and make my decision easier. Thank you.

 

[Mad Jack]

The smart choice, I am sure most people would say, is to take the DO degree and run. Especially since I do not necessarily have my heart set on neurosurgery or anything. I appreciate the advice regarding the steps, as I already know that I am not a naturally brilliant test taker.

I am just hoping that maybe having a DO degree is not nearly as damning as people make it out to be. I just often feel that I would like to enjoy a certain amount of flexibility in my career, whether that means doing research I am interested in or starting a clinic in another country (random thoughts I've had). I fear discrimination in achieving certain career goals, even apart from landing a good residency - based on the letters behind my name. Granted, perhaps these worries are better suited for a more specific thread. Regardless - thank you.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a.../Pages/international-practice-rights-map.aspx

There's your international options. They add a new country or two pretty much every year. Amusingly, in Australia you're not allowed to call yourself an Osteopathic physician or to do manipulation because their osteopaths are all butthurt about us practicing real medicine in addition to bone wizardry and started a fuss about our doing OMM there.

 

[deleted480308]

You know who definitely doesn't get to do academic medicine? People who never start medical school. Take you acceptance and be happy

 

[Danglebells]

the disadvantage faced by going to a DO school only really applies to the top students, as they are shut out of certain upper echelon programs by default for being a DO.


now, odds are that you are not one of those students. Add in the fact that you have an average GPA/MCAT, its definitely not you.

this is not an insult. most medical students are average.

that means, you will have likely the same experience at DO school x vs MD school y.

Every year you reapply you need to have a substantially better application. you need to pay for application costs. you need to wait a year, and you therefore waste 1 year of potential attending salary in the long run.

This is not worth it.

go DO.

 

[NurWollen]

You know who definitely doesn't get to do academic medicine? People who never start medical school. Take you acceptance and be happy

Succinct and true.

 

[feeling-dizzy]

You know who definitely doesn't get to do academic medicine? People who never start medical school. Take you acceptance and be happy

I wonder if D.O. can teach in Caribbean MD schools? Does it consider academic medicine?

 

[JustPlainBill]

It's in the title. Here is my basic story:

I have applied to medical school 3 times, first 2 only MD, this year MD/DO. The first time was a mistake, I was young, I had a poor MCAT. The second time I applied, I was rejected following one interview. This year I have been accepted to several DO schools and have been placed on "hold" following 3 MD interviews. I used to live in a "difficult" state in terms of in state acceptances, and this year gained residency in a "lucky" state as some may call it (hence the three in state MD interviews). These could lead to acceptances, but rejections are more likely. I have an MCAT of 30 (multiple retakes) cpga of 3.6. My application is a heavy mix of volunteer, shadowing, research, and other eclectic activities. Admissions has specifically told me I have great letters and experiences. Here is my question:

I have always relished in the idea of practicing medicine, but am terrified of the idea that I will be closed out of several career opportunities with a DO degree. What if I really want to get into medical journalism for some reason? What if I am driven towards academic medicine? According to the threads on this site, it seems that by signing up for a DO degree, I embark on the path to learning medicine, but shut myself out of a whole plethora of potentially interesting medicine-related career paths. I do not want this. However, I am at the point where applying again to school is foolish and embarrassing. I am not sure if I am seeking reassurance or advice, and perhaps I will receive neither. I would appreciate honest thoughts and strategies, not some BS response that sounds smart or derails the thread.

Thank you all.

So this advice and $1.00 will get you a coke out of the machines -- it's worth what you paid for it --

If you're going to spend this much time and energy on what the future may possibly hold or listening to what other people think about you and your situation, you don't need to be in medicine in the first place.

If you don't want to be a D.O., then don't be one -- you can always do med school in the Caribbean or Europe and then try to train in the US system --

I know this will sound harsh, but for the love of St. Barnabas, be happy that you were selected for medicine and not whine like some spoiled brat that you didn't get selected for a top tier school to lead the exclusive academic life or whatever the heck you want to do -- remember, that it's not a lead-pipe cinch that you'll make it through the first biochem class or even graduate much less make it through a residency -- sheesh

cut the BS, decide if you want to be a doctor or not -- if you do, then go be one....

 

[IslandStyle808]

We won't really know much about the landscape of the merger for DOs until a few more matches. I am hoping to see the NRMP survey report of 2016. This would give us an idea of how many PDs are interviewing DO students and other matching information.

 

[Mad Jack]

Unfortunately I did not get into any east coast osteopathic medical schools. Lack of research is something I do have concerns about, seeing as I've always valued the relationship between research and medicine. As for party/socializing, I did enough of that during undergrad (hence why I may not be getting into higher tier institutions). The medical radio show sounds fantastic, though. Thank you for your input!



It seems that this is a more common string of advice - and perhaps during my first year, I won't even have time to study. But for someone like me, it never feels too early to start thinking about the next test.



I enjoy a realistic viewpoint. And it's a tender subject.



Plastics and derm? Unlikely. Ortho? Who knows, maybe I'll love it. The uphill battle part is interesting. Some folks say you're shut out of academic institutions as a DO grad, others say there is a preference, but it is not anywhere near as large as it's made out to be.



The issue is that when I interview at MD schools again next year, how do I explain 4 failed applications? I mean, if someone can't learn to fix something after 4 times - do they really deserve it? I am not sure. Your friends who are on their 5th cycle - are they happy with their decision?

You aren't shut out of academics as a DO. It's just harder to get a mid or high tier academic residency. Low tier academic is pretty common though.

 

[Danglebells]

You aren't shut out of academics as a DO. It's just harder to get a mid or high tier academic residency. Low tier academic is pretty common though.

true. but...reminder. most MDs cant get into the high tier academic programs either.

average students go to average schools and get average residencies. and all become doctors.

stop worrying about the damn "tiers" and just go do the best you can, be it MD, DO, Ortho or Psych.

SDN cares way to much about the dumbest aspect of medicine.

 

[IslandStyle808]

true. but...reminder. most MDs cant get into the high tier academic programs either.

average students go to average schools and get average residencies. and all become doctors.

stop worrying about the damn "tiers" and just go do the best you can, be it MD, DO, Ortho or Psych.

SDN cares way to much about the dumbest aspect of medicine.

The better the tier of residency the easier it is to match into a competitive fellowship. It isn't always about prestige. However, if one does well as a DO student a mid-tier residency is possible in a non-competitive field.

EDIT made

 

[Danglebells]

The better the tier of residency the easier it is to match into a fellowship. It isn't always about prestige. However, if one does well as a DO student a mid-tier residency, it is possible in a non-competitive field.

mind=blown

 

[AwayFromReality]

OP, as one of those "negative" voices I say take the DO acceptance and run with it. My words of caution are mainly directed to those who have a choice between an MD and DO school.

In the situation that you mentioned I agree that MD should be the answer but what about a program like California Northstate, which opened its application last summer for admission in that same Fall. Would you recommend applicants to choose that program over DO?

 

[Mad Jack]

true. but...reminder. most MDs cant get into the high tier academic programs either.

average students go to average schools and get average residencies. and all become doctors.

stop worrying about the damn "tiers" and just go do the best you can, be it MD, DO, Ortho or Psych.

SDN cares way to much about the dumbest aspect of medicine.

Getting into a high quality academic program instead of a community one is kind of a big deal if you're in internal medicine or peds. It's literally the difference between getting a fellowship and being a hospitalist for the rest of your life for the vast majority of grads. A lot of DOs don't end up in community programs, while a few end up in lower tier academic residencies. The difference in fellowship placement in IM is enormous- a community program might land 20% of their residents fellowships, and most of those in geriatrics, rheum, nephro, etc, while a high tier academic center typically lands 80%+ of their graduates in fellowships, most of which are competitive (cards, GI, pulm, heme/onc, A&I). Lower tier academic residencies typically have fellowship match lists that are 50-60% of the class, with half of those being in less competitive fellowships. Still way better than a community program, but it's certainly not what a mid or upper tier program will land you.

Or you could just pretend it doesn't matter. No skin off my back.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Getting into a high quality academic program instead of a community one is kind of a big deal if you're in internal medicine or peds. It's literally the difference between getting a fellowship and being a hospitalist for the rest of your life for the vast majority of grads. A lot of DOs don't end up in community programs, while a few end up in lower tier academic residencies. The difference in fellowship placement in IM is enormous- a community program might land 20% of their residents fellowships, and most of those in geriatrics, rheum, nephro, etc, while a high tier academic center typically lands 80%+ of their graduates in fellowships, most of which are competitive (cards, GI, pulm, heme/onc, A&I). Lower tier academic residencies typically have fellowship match lists that are 50-60% of the class, with half of those being in less competitive fellowships. Still way better than a community program, but it's certainly not what a mid or upper tier program will land you.

Or you could just pretend it doesn't matter. No skin off my back.

Preach it...

 

[NurWollen]

Getting into a high quality academic program instead of a community one is kind of a big deal if you're in internal medicine or peds. It's literally the difference between getting a fellowship and being a hospitalist for the rest of your life for the vast majority of grads. A lot of DOs don't end up in community programs, while a few end up in lower tier academic residencies. The difference in fellowship placement in IM is enormous- a community program might land 20% of their residents fellowships, and most of those in geriatrics, rheum, nephro, etc, while a high tier academic center typically lands 80%+ of their graduates in fellowships, most of which are competitive (cards, GI, pulm, heme/onc, A&I). Lower tier academic residencies typically have fellowship match lists that are 50-60% of the class, with half of those being in less competitive fellowships. Still way better than a community program, but it's certainly not what a mid or upper tier program will land you.

Or you could just pretend it doesn't matter. No skin off my back.

Once again, it all boils down to what you want. Some people get bored working with only one organ system and like hospitalist work.

Also, from what I understand, peds fellowships aren't as competitive as IM fellowship. The most competitive peds fellowships (NICU, PICU, peds EM) have just over a 1:1 applicant to spot ratio, iirc.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Getting into a high quality academic program instead of a community one is kind of a big deal if you're in internal medicine or peds. It's literally the difference between getting a fellowship and being a hospitalist for the rest of your life for the vast majority of grads. A lot of DOs don't end up in community programs, while a few end up in lower tier academic residencies. The difference in fellowship placement in IM is enormous- a community program might land 20% of their residents fellowships, and most of those in geriatrics, rheum, nephro, etc, while a high tier academic center typically lands 80%+ of their graduates in fellowships, most of which are competitive (cards, GI, pulm, heme/onc, A&I). Lower tier academic residencies typically have fellowship match lists that are 50-60% of the class, with half of those being in less competitive fellowships. Still way better than a community program, but it's certainly not what a mid or upper tier program will land you.

Or you could just pretend it doesn't matter. No skin off my back.

I thought Heme/Onc and A&I were generally not competitive fields in IM?

 

[22031 Alum]

true. but...reminder. most MDs cant get into the high tier academic programs either.

I'll give you that this is statistically true. "High-tier" academic programs make up a smaller percentage of available spots, therefore the majority of applicants won't get those spots.

But the attitude of "Oh, these spots are off-limits for low-tier MD grads too!" is absolutely wrong and I will point that out whenever I see it. It's an attempt to handwave away a reality of the process that is not any less true for being unfortunate. There are programs in all specialties, across all "tiers," that will never see the superstar DO student's application because it gets filtered out. Whereas that applicant with an MD degree from East Jesus will at least have their application looked at. You don't have to believe me, but only one of us has actually been involved in resident selection.

 

[cabinbuilder]

To the OP. Quit it already. You have an acceptance which is a hell of a lot more than most students out there. Get over it and be the doctor you want to be.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I thought Heme/Onc and A&I were generally not competitive fields in IM?

I was actually under the impression Heme/Onc was.

 

[22031 Alum]

I'd also like to point out that one of my most important mentors from residency is a DO. And out in practice as an academic, I have had my butt saved in the operating room by a DO subspecialist on several occasions. You should be proud that you get the chance to become a DO physician.

 

[Danglebells]

Getting into a high quality academic program instead of a community one is kind of a big deal if you're in internal medicine or peds. It's literally the difference between getting a fellowship and being a hospitalist for the rest of your life for the vast majority of grads. A lot of DOs don't end up in community programs, while a few end up in lower tier academic residencies. The difference in fellowship placement in IM is enormous- a community program might land 20% of their residents fellowships, and most of those in geriatrics, rheum, nephro, etc, while a high tier academic center typically lands 80%+ of their graduates in fellowships, most of which are competitive (cards, GI, pulm, heme/onc, A&I). Lower tier academic residencies typically have fellowship match lists that are 50-60% of the class, with half of those being in less competitive fellowships. Still way better than a community program, but it's certainly not what a mid or upper tier program will land you.

Or you could just pretend it doesn't matter. No skin off my back.

unless you are one of the 1000 total applicants for cardiology, 700 total applicants for GI, 700 total applicants for heme/onc, or 700 total applicants for pulm/ccm.... its no skin off anybody's back.

 

[Danglebells]

I'll give you that this is statistically true. "High-tier" academic programs make up a smaller percentage of available spots, therefore the majority of applicants won't get those spots.

But the attitude of "Oh, these spots are off-limits for low-tier MD grads too!" is absolutely wrong and I will point that out whenever I see it. It's an attempt to handwave away a reality of the process that is not any less true for being unfortunate. There are programs in all specialties, across all "tiers," that will never see the superstar DO student's application because it gets filtered out. Whereas that applicant with an MD degree from East Jesus will at least have their application looked at. You don't have to believe me, but only one of us has actually been involved in resident selection.

I know that DOs get filtered out. in fact I think nearly everyone knows that.

I am saying that you are much much much more likely to be filtered out based on the fact that you aren't a the unique snowflake who WOULD have COULD have SHOULD have been on the radar at an elite program, save for the fact that you are a DO.

I know. its possible that you could be the one guy with a 260 step 1, 5 case reports, a LOR from Barack Obama, but get filtered for being a DO.

i am simply saying that you are much more likely to be average, especially given the average entrance stats.
I normally would always say go MD over DO. in the instance of being a repeat applicant x3, and having a DO acceptance, you take the DO acceptance.

the DO bias doesn't have any impact on MOST DO grads.

 

[njtrimed]

I've been in the medical field a long time and never noticed which physicians were MD or DO until I started getting LORs from them and asking for applications advice. And anecdotally, I noticed recently that two separate friends asked for physician recommendations on Facebook and specified "DO preferred." One was looking for primary care and the other is pregnant and needs a new OB. Both felt that in their experience, DOs had paid more attention to their needs.

IMO, the letters behind your name are meaningless and all that matters is the reputation you earn through your actions.

 

[Mad Jack]

I thought Heme/Onc and A&I were generally not competitive fields in IM?

A&I is the derm of IM, it's competitive and has very few slots, hence it having the highest percent of US MDs entering it of any IM subspecialty. It doesn't have as many applicants per slot as a lot of the other specialties, but the quality of those applicants tends to be fairly high. And heme/onc is pretty damn competitive.

 

[Mad Jack]

unless you are one of the 1000 total applicants for cardiology, 700 total applicants for GI, 700 total applicants for heme/onc, or 700 total applicants for pulm/ccm.... its no skin off anybody's back.

How does that in any way invalidate what I said? Matching at a decent IM program substantially alters your chances of getting into a fellowship down the road. Anyone matriculating into a DO school should be damn well be aware of that.

 

[Mad Jack]

Once again, it all boils down to what you want. Some people get bored working with only one organ system and like hospitalist work.

Also, from what I understand, peds fellowships aren't as competitive as IM fellowship. The most competitive peds fellowships (NICU, PICU, peds EM) have just over a 1:1 applicant to spot ratio, iirc.

I'm just making sure OP is aware of how their chances of certain fields change going the DO route. They specifically asked about how they are limited, so I'm letting them know. Getting a decent residency is going to be more difficult, and getting a decent fellowship is also going to be more difficult. That's reality. If they are cool with that, then DO all day and night. But they should at least know.

 

[jordansetron]

Unfortunately I did not get into any east coast osteopathic medical schools. Lack of research is something I do have concerns about, seeing as I've always valued the relationship between research and medicine. As for party/socializing, I did enough of that during undergrad (hence why I may not be getting into higher tier institutions). The medical radio show sounds fantastic, though. Thank you for your input!



It seems that this is a more common string of advice - and perhaps during my first year, I won't even have time to study. But for someone like me, it never feels too early to start thinking about the next test.



I enjoy a realistic viewpoint. And it's a tender subject.



Plastics and derm? Unlikely. Ortho? Who knows, maybe I'll love it. The uphill battle part is interesting. Some folks say you're shut out of academic institutions as a DO grad, others say there is a preference, but it is not anywhere near as large as it's made out to be.



The issue is that when I interview at MD schools again next year, how do I explain 4 failed applications? I mean, if someone can't learn to fix something after 4 times - do they really deserve it? I am not sure. Your friends who are on their 5th cycle - are they happy with their decision?

No my friends are not happy with their decision but at the same time they are the biggest DO bashers I know. Its almost like they are compensating for their own insecurity. Like their unsuccessful applications are somehow more honorable because they didnt dirty their hands filling out an AACOMAS app. Meanwhile our mutual friend is entering the first year of his ortho residency. Seriously though, if you want to be a US MD, then go for it. whats a few more years out of the prime of your life anyway. Anyone and I mean ANYONE can become a US MD if they want to commit the time, effort, and resources.