Affected by DO-associated SDN negativity

[jordansetron]

Applicants to the programs that filter out DOs should be aware that that program wont even consider their application. Its completely unfair and insulting to the DOs that are already having a hard time sifting through programs to apply to to have to wonder whether their application will just be thrown in the garbage. I'd be ok with programs posting "No DO's need apply" on their websites. If they want to pass on some of the best physicians in this country then thats their (dumb) decision to make

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[Dr.Smexy]

No my friends are not happy with their decision but at the same time they are the biggest DO bashers I know. Its almost like they are compensating for their own insecurity. Like their unsuccessful applications are somehow more honorable because they didnt dirty their hands filling out an AACOMAS app. Meanwhile our mutual friend is entering the first year of his ortho residency. Seriously though, if you want to be a US MD, then go for it. whats a few more years out of the prime of your life anyway. Anyone and I mean ANYONE can become a US MD if they want to commit the time, effort, and resources.

Yeah that's not true and quite a ridiculous statement to make...and the OP is in no position to be picky. Do you know what he would be if he didn't get accepted to DO schools? NOT a doctor. Can't believe the OP is even questioning whether or not to take the acceptance when the MD side has made it pretty clear that they don't want him (3 times is the hint buddy..)

 

[Dr.Smexy]

Applicants to the programs that filter out DOs should be aware that that program wont even consider their application. Its completely unfair and insulting to the DOs that are already having a hard time sifting through programs to apply to to have to wonder whether their application will just be thrown in the garbage. I'd be ok with programs posting "No DO's need apply" on their websites. If they want to pass on some of the best physicians in this country then thats their (dumb) decision to make

On what merit? Their impressive COMLEX score and "shadowing-intensive" rotations? There are good DO grads I'm sure but there is no different in the quality of a DO student population compare to MD characteristic wise. The only difference is the academic ability of the student populations between the two.

 

[jordansetron]

Yeah that's not true and quite a ridiculous statement to make...and the OP is in no position to be picky. Do you know what he would be if he didn't get accepted to DO schools? NOT a doctor. Can't believe the OP is even questioning whether or not to take the acceptance when the MD side has made it pretty clear that they don't want him (3 times is the hint buddy..)

definitely true and not ridiculous that people can turn their lives around and build a halfway decent application. Take a poll of your own class. How many are 2nd, 3rd, 4th time applicants? How many times did they take the MCAT before they got the score they wanted? How many had previous careers before medicine? How many did post-bacc work? It takes time and alot of effort/money but it almost always ends with an acceptance somewhere unless you have a felony on your record.

 

[Danglebells]

How does that in any way invalidate what I said? Matching at a decent IM program substantially alters your chances of getting into a fellowship down the road. Anyone matriculating into a DO school should be damn well be aware of that.

It doesnt. We are on two different pages here.

Yes. If you are an above average applicant, with above average hopes and dreams at above average programs, being a DO will eliminate your chances.
For the overwhelming majority of people though, you will not become the chief of GI at a major academic hospital.
The overwhelming majority of people wont even go into academic medicine, or GI.
It is not at all worth "preserving your chances" of that occurring in the context of an average pre-med who has tried 3 times to get into medical school. You cut your "losses" and go to the DO school. You have closed a few doors that statistically speaking weren't open to you in the first place.


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[Dr.Smexy]

definitely true and not ridiculous that people can turn their lives around and build a halfway decent application. Take a poll of your own class. How many are 2nd, 3rd, 4th time applicants? How many times did they take the MCAT before they got the score they wanted? How many had previous careers before medicine? How many did post-bacc work? It takes time and alot of effort/money but it almost always ends with an acceptance somewhere unless you have a felony on your record.

I don't think you quite understand your own statement. ANYONE can be a US MD? Try telling that to the thousands of new Carib students every years, the thousands of "used to be" pre-med across the nation or the tenth of thousands of student who's struggling to earn a C in intro to science courses while putting in their best effort. If you can't see why that's ridiculous yourself arguing about it with you won't help.

 

[jordansetron]

I don't think you quite understand your own statement. ANYONE can be a US MD? Try telling that to the thousands of new Carib students every years, the thousands of "used to be" pre-med across the nation or the tenth of thousands of student who's struggling to earn a C in intro to science courses. If you can't see why that's ridiculous yourself arguing about it with you won't help.

Ok let me try again...Anyone with average intelligence and without a criminal history can eventually get into a US MD school? Believe it or not, not everybody in US MD is the cream of the crop and there are hundreds of nontraditionals on this forum with stories about overcoming adversity and statistics. I thought it was implied that the applicants were of at least average intelligence and were giving a genuine effort to the process.

Still think its ridiculous? It might be. just a personal opinion.

 

[Danglebells]

Ok let me try again...Anyone with average intelligence and without a criminal history can eventually get into a US MD school? Believe it or not, not everybody in US MD is the cream of the crop and there are hundreds of nontraditionals on this forum with stories about overcoming adversity and statistics. I thought it was implied that the applicants were of at least average intelligence and were giving a genuine effort to the process.

Still think its ridiculous? It might be. just a personal opinion.

It is still ridiculous, and it is painfully irrelevant to everything. No more please.


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[Mad Jack]

It doesnt. We are on two different pages here.

Yes. If you are an above average applicant, with above average hopes and dreams at above average programs, being a DO will eliminate your chances.
For the overwhelming majority of people though, you will not become the chief of GI at a major academic hospital.
The overwhelming majority of people wont even go into academic medicine, or GI.
It is not at all worth "preserving your chances" of that occurring in the context of an average pre-med who has tried 3 times to get into medical school. You cut your "losses" and go to the DO school. You have closed a few doors that statistically speaking weren't open to you in the first place.


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The average MD student can get into a mid-tier academic program, or a low-tier at worst. Basically, if you're an MD student, you will have extremely strong chances of fellowship down the road, as fellowship admission is more about where you went to residency and what research you have done than anything else. As a DO, you have to fight to end up in a low-to-mid tier academic program. That's the difference. Just about any MD student, even in the lower portion of their class, stands a decent shot at academic medicine. The average DO student would, if they ended up in an MD school, probably get into a low-tier academic program at the minimum just fine. So I'm letting OP know what is off the table if they go DO, because if that upsets them, they shouldn't go this route. Some people might decide to either go all-out on finding a way into MD school, some might decide medicine isn't worth it for them if they can't get into a certain group of specialties or subspecialties. I'm letting OP know what is most likely off the table as a DO versus an MD, that's it.

The overwhelming majority of US MDs go on to a fellowship. A great number of DOs do, just less competitive fellowships overall.

 

[jordansetron]

It is still ridiculous, and it is painfully irrelevant to everything. No more please.


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My own experiences are different than yours I guess. I stand by what I said. There isnt some invisible wall that OP cant overcome to eventually get into allopathic school.

But yeah its totally irrelevant for sure.

OP be warned, if you go DO, regardless of how good or bad your training is, there will be people like @Dr.Smexy there to call into question your credentials.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Seriously...do you people have nothing better to do on a Tuesday night? This topic has been beatin to death a billion times already.

 

[Mbeas]

The average MD student can get into a mid-tier academic program, or a low-tier at worst. Basically, if you're an MD student, you will have extremely strong chances of fellowship down the road, as fellowship admission is more about where you went to residency and what research you have done than anything else. As a DO, you have to fight to end up in a low-to-mid tier academic program. That's the difference. Just about any MD student, even in the lower portion of their class, stands a decent shot at academic medicine. The average DO student would, if they ended up in an MD school, probably get into a low-tier academic program at the minimum just fine. So I'm letting OP know what is off the table if they go DO, because if that upsets them, they shouldn't go this route. Some people might decide to either go all-out on finding a way into MD school, some might decide medicine isn't worth it for them if they can't get into a certain group of specialties or subspecialties. I'm letting OP know what is most likely off the table as a DO versus an MD, that's it.

The overwhelming majority of US MDs go on to a fellowship. A great number of DOs do, just less competitive fellowships overall.

This is basically true. For all intents and purposes, a US MD with with equal board scores to a DO will get more residency interview invites and greater opportunity, regardless of what American MD school they went to. It's just the reality, unfortunately.

 

[Danglebells]

The average MD student can get into a mid-tier academic program, or a low-tier at worst. Basically, if you're an MD student, you will have extremely strong chances of fellowship down the road, as fellowship admission is more about where you went to residency and what research you have done than anything else. As a DO, you have to fight to end up in a low-to-mid tier academic program. That's the difference. Just about any MD student, even in the lower portion of their class, stands a decent shot at academic medicine. The average DO student would, if they ended up in an MD school, probably get into a low-tier academic program at the minimum just fine. So I'm letting OP know what is off the table if they go DO, because if that upsets them, they shouldn't go this route. Some people might decide to either go all-out on finding a way into MD school, some might decide medicine isn't worth it for them if they can't get into a certain group of specialties or subspecialties. I'm letting OP know what is most likely off the table as a DO versus an MD, that's it.

The overwhelming majority of US MDs go on to a fellowship. A great number of DOs do, just less competitive fellowships overall.

I think you are really overstating things here, but the overall message is absolutely correct. MD = more options. You do not need to fight to end up in an academic program as a DO though. I can tell you that I am personally a below average DO student, and I got plenty of interviews for academic ACMGE IM programs.

its true that none of these programs are going to lock me in for academic fellowships, but if we are being honest here, no residency program is going to guarantee your fellowship application.

 

[Mbeas]

What if I really want to get into medical journalism for some reason? What if I am driven towards academic medicine? According to the threads on this site, it seems that by signing up for a DO degree, I embark on the path to learning medicine, but shut myself out of a whole plethora of potentially interesting medicine-related career paths.

You won't be shut out of any of these things. I'm sure there are DO medical journalists, and there are definitely DO's in academic medicine in large academic institutions. It will be an uphill battle for sure, but you won't be "shut out" of anything really. I'd absolutely take the DO acceptance, work hard, and have no regret (unless you get one of your MD acceptances, in which case I'd take that).

 

[Mad Jack]

I think you are really overstating things here, but the overall message is absolutely correct. MD = more options. You do not need to fight to end up in an academic program as a DO though. I can tell you that I am personally a below average DO student, and I got plenty of interviews for academic ACMGE IM programs.

its true that none of these programs are going to lock me in for academic fellowships, but if we are being honest here, no residency program is going to guarantee your fellowship application.

Let's look at my state school's match list: http://medicine.uchc.edu/\/prospective/matchday/index.html
Now let's look at arguably the best DO school's match list: http://www.pcom.edu/student-life/student-affairs/match-list.html
Here's PCOM's IM matches:

Allegheny Genl/Western Penn Med Ed Pitts
Aria Health
Atlanticare Regional Medical Center
Bluefield Regional Medical Center
Christiana Care
Crozer-Chester Medical Center
Danville Regional Medical Center
Detroit Wayne County Health Authority
Geisinger Health System
Heart of Lancaster Regional Medical Center
Hershey Medical Center /Penn State University
Kennedy University/Our Lady of Lourdes
Lankenau Medical Center
Largo Medical Center
Lehigh Valley Health Network
Manatee Memorial Hospital
Mercy Catholic Medical Center
Mercy Suburban Hospital
North Broward Hospital District
North Shore-LIJ Health System - Lenox Hill
Palmetto General Hospital
Parkview Medical Center
Pennsylvania Hospital
Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Med (6)
Plaza Medical Center
Reading Hospital and Medical Center
Rowan/SOM
Southeastern Health
St. Luke's University Hospital
Stony Brook University Hospital
Temple University Hospital
University of Connecticut Health Center
University of Florida COM
UPMC Shadyside Hospital
Wright Center for GME

Here's UCONN's IM matches:

• Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center
• Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center
• Duke University Medical Center
• Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania
• Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai
• Johns Hopkins Hospital
• North Shore-LIJ Health System
• Rhode Island Hospital/Brown University Internal Medicine

• Scripps Clinic/Green Hospital
• Stamford Hospital/Columbia
• Temple University Hospital
• Tripler Army Medical Center
• Tufts Medical Center
• UConn School of Medicine
• University of Massachusetts Medical School
• Yale-New Haven Hospital
  
  

Now, do you want to tell me again how being a DO doesn't significantly hurt your chances of getting into an academic residency?

 

[Low Flow]

It's in the title. Here is my basic story:

I have applied to medical school 3 times, first 2 only MD, this year MD/DO. The first time was a mistake, I was young, I had a poor MCAT. The second time I applied, I was rejected following one interview. This year I have been accepted to several DO schools and have been placed on "hold" following 3 MD interviews. I used to live in a "difficult" state in terms of in state acceptances, and this year gained residency in a "lucky" state as some may call it (hence the three in state MD interviews). These could lead to acceptances, but rejections are more likely. I have an MCAT of 30 (multiple retakes) cpga of 3.6. My application is a heavy mix of volunteer, shadowing, research, and other eclectic activities. Admissions has specifically told me I have great letters and experiences. Here is my question:

I have always relished in the idea of practicing medicine, but am terrified of the idea that I will be closed out of several career opportunities with a DO degree. What if I really want to get into medical journalism for some reason? What if I am driven towards academic medicine? According to the threads on this site, it seems that by signing up for a DO degree, I embark on the path to learning medicine, but shut myself out of a whole plethora of potentially interesting medicine-related career paths. I do not want this. However, I am at the point where applying again to school is foolish and embarrassing. I am not sure if I am seeking reassurance or advice, and perhaps I will receive neither. I would appreciate honest thoughts and strategies, not some BS response that sounds smart or derails the thread.

Thank you all.

Your situation is fortunate and unfortunate at the same time, but I can definitely relate. We went to the same undergrad, and I applied last year with a 3.8/30. Had an interview at UW and was on the "consideration list" until March, but ultimately wasn't offered an acceptance. Meanwhile I had acceptances to two DO schools in the area. I chose to go to the DO school instead of putting off my education for the sake of (maybe) getting an MD after another application.

I'll admit that the thought of whether I made the right choice creeps into my head from time to time (reading SDN surely doesn't help). Our minds have an uncanny tendency to veer towards the "what if" scenario. But at the end of the day, you have to examine the facts, and withdraw from that ideal fantasy in your mind. If this decision bothers you this much now, I have a feeling it will eat away at you if you attend a DO school.

It's a tough decision to make. But you really have to dig down and decide what it is that you want. Do you really want to be a physician, or do you want the recognition of an MD? In your case, you also need to really think about what the chances are of you gaining an acceptance to an MD. Why haven't you been successful after 3 attempts? There has to be a reason. How likely is it that you will be successful after a 4th or 5th try? At some point you either need to swallow your pride and attend a DO school, or look elsewhere for a career.

As I said, I often contemplate whether I should have tried again for an MD (especially now that I'm exploring the fields that interest me), but at the end of the day, I believe I made the best decision I could at that time. All you can do is make the best of the situation that you are in.

 

[Danglebells]

[/LIST]
Now, do you want to tell me again how being a DO doesn't significantly hurt your chances of getting into an academic residency?

Have you actually read anything I have posted or are you just on a mission to agree with yourself?





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[IslandStyle808]

I think you are really overstating things here, but the overall message is absolutely correct. MD = more options. You do not need to fight to end up in an academic program as a DO though. I can tell you that I am personally a below average DO student, and I got plenty of interviews for academic ACMGE IM programs.

its true that none of these programs are going to lock me in for academic fellowships, but if we are being honest here, no residency program is going to guarantee your fellowship application.

The point @Mad Jack is making here is that going to a DO school changes the way you approach both specialty and programs. If two students had a 220 USMLE score, one MD and one DO, the way they set up their match lists for specialities will be different. The MD student will feel more safe applying to more mid tier programs, but a DO student will feel more safe to applying to low tier university/communo-university programs.

Nothing is a guarantee. However, would you tell a student who got into a caribbean school and a DO school to go to the caribbean? It is the same situation with matching, but with less repercussions.

 

[Danglebells]

For God's sake how many times are you going to say the same thing.
MDs have more options.
DOs are filtered out of a lot of programs.
We get it. I swear to god we f'ing get it


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[Danglebells]

*cue the next post about how MD/DO applicants with equal stats are viewed differently by PDs*


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[IslandStyle808]

K

 

[Mbeas]

I think you are really overstating things here, but the overall message is absolutely correct. MD = more options. You do not need to fight to end up in an academic program as a DO though. I can tell you that I am personally a below average DO student, and I got plenty of interviews for academic ACMGE IM programs.

lol at everyone attacking this post. Danglebells said exactly what everyone else has said. What part is everyone frustrated about? They said "I can tell you that I am personally a below average DO student, and I got plenty of interviews for academic ACMGE IM programs.". Why is that so hard to believe? DO's are in academic IM programs and it's not that difficult to get an interview invite.

 

[Danglebells]

lol at everyone attacking this post. Danglebells said exactly what everyone else has said. What part is everyone frustrated about? They said "I can tell you that I am personally a below average DO student, and I got plenty of interviews for academic ACMGE IM programs.". Why is that so hard to believe? DO's are in academic IM programs and it's not that difficult to get an interview invite.

For some reason they are trying to really hammer home the fact that MDs have a much easier time matching into competitive residencies and fellowships, which is an agreed upon fact.
What they cant conceptualize though, is that it doesn't matter for the majority of applicants. I assume they are m1 or m2s who sweat over match lists.



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[Mad Jack]

No my friends are not happy with their decision but at the same time they are the biggest DO bashers I know. Its almost like they are compensating for their own insecurity. Like their unsuccessful applications are somehow more honorable because they didnt dirty their hands filling out an AACOMAS app. Meanwhile our mutual friend is entering the first year of his ortho residency. Seriously though, if you want to be a US MD, then go for it. whats a few more years out of the prime of your life anyway. Anyone and I mean ANYONE can become a US MD if they want to commit the time, effort, and resources.

They're getting what they deserved lol.

 

[NurWollen]

I'm just making sure OP is aware of how their chances of certain fields change going the DO route. They specifically asked about how they are limited, so I'm letting them know. Getting a decent residency is going to be more difficult, and getting a decent fellowship is also going to be more difficult. That's reality. If they are cool with that, then DO all day and night. But they should at least know.

Very true. People should definitely know. People coming into DO school with all sorts of unrealistic expectations leads to bitter classmates, and no one wants that.

I do think it's a shame that people tend to swing the pendulum from one extreme to the other. There are people who would call you a 'self-hating DO' because you refuse to poop rainbows. At the same time, "Be aware of the downsides to going DO =/= "DO is a dark and gloomy road to ridicule and disdain."
You didn't say it was, but people interpret it that way, hence the existence of this thread.

 

[kenjixshadow]

I think ppl here are secretly dating. Like any couple, you guys argue over the same argument for the 100x time.

 

[Mad Jack]

Very true. People should definitely know. People coming into DO school with all sorts of unrealistic expectations leads to bitter classmates, and no one wants that.

I do think it's a shame that people tend to swing the pendulum from one extreme to the other. There are people who would call you a 'self-hating DO' because you refuse to poop rainbows. At the same time, "Be aware of the downsides to going DO =/= "DO is a dark and gloomy road to ridicule and disdain."
You didn't say it was, but people interpret it that way, hence the existence of this thread.

That's the problem I frequently run into in a nutshell. It's a mixed bag- on the one hand, being a DO gives you a lot more opportunities than not being a physician, and isn't all bad depending on what you want out of your career. But on the other, you're totally written off by a lot of residencies, and your chances of getting a decent fellowship just aren't as good. That's it, both sides. But when I see that 40+ people want to be surgeons in my class and we didn't have a single categorical general surgery match last year (we had some specialty surgery matches, but not a ton) that kind of bugs me. People's expectations are all too often not in line with reality.

 

[Mbeas]

But when I see that 40+ people want to be surgeons in my class and we didn't have a single categorical general surgery match last year (we had some specialty surgery matches, but not a ton) that kind of bugs me.

Wow, really? That's surprising. Are you not counting AOA gen surg?

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Just DO it if you want to become a DOctor!!!

sorry I couldn't help it

 

[Mad Jack]

Wow, really? That's surprising. Are you not counting AOA gen surg?

I am indeed counting AOA gen surg.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I am indeed counting AOA gen surg.

Shocking considering the school you go to is competitive.

 

[Mbeas]

Shocking considering the school you go to is competitive.

It is shocking, and I would argue that is very atypical. I don't follow other school's match lists, but I know my school matched ~15 into categorical gen surg (ACGME/AOA/military)

 

[Mad Jack]

Shocking considering the school you go to is competitive.

We had some good matches, don't get me wrong- AOA ortho, ACGME ortho, ACGME optho, AOA uro, AOA neurosurg, if I remember correctly. But zero gen surg (we had two or three prelims), and only like, seven categorical surg matches total across all subspecialties. Compared to the number of people that want to do surgery in my class, that's tiny.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Let's look at my state school's match list: http://medicine.uchc.edu/\/prospective/matchday/index.html
Now let's look at arguably the best DO school's match list: http://www.pcom.edu/student-life/student-affairs/match-list.html
Here's PCOM's IM matches:

Allegheny Genl/Western Penn Med Ed Pitts
Aria Health
Atlanticare Regional Medical Center
Bluefield Regional Medical Center
Christiana Care
Crozer-Chester Medical Center
Danville Regional Medical Center
Detroit Wayne County Health Authority
Geisinger Health System
Heart of Lancaster Regional Medical Center
Hershey Medical Center /Penn State University
Kennedy University/Our Lady of Lourdes
Lankenau Medical Center
Largo Medical Center
Lehigh Valley Health Network
Manatee Memorial Hospital
Mercy Catholic Medical Center
Mercy Suburban Hospital
North Broward Hospital District
North Shore-LIJ Health System - Lenox Hill
Palmetto General Hospital
Parkview Medical Center
Pennsylvania Hospital
Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Med (6)
Plaza Medical Center
Reading Hospital and Medical Center
Rowan/SOM
Southeastern Health
St. Luke's University Hospital
Stony Brook University Hospital
Temple University Hospital
University of Connecticut Health Center
University of Florida COM
UPMC Shadyside Hospital
Wright Center for GME

Here's UCONN's IM matches:

• Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center
• Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center
• Duke University Medical Center
• Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania
• Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai
• Johns Hopkins Hospital
• North Shore-LIJ Health System
• Rhode Island Hospital/Brown University Internal Medicine

• Scripps Clinic/Green Hospital
• Stamford Hospital/Columbia
• Temple University Hospital
• Tripler Army Medical Center
• Tufts Medical Center
• UConn School of Medicine
• University of Massachusetts Medical School
• Yale-New Haven Hospital
  

Now, do you want to tell me again how being a DO doesn't significantly hurt your chances of getting into an academic residency?

How do we go about figuring out what a good or mid tier IM program is exactly?

 

[Mad Jack]

How do we go about figuring out what a good or mid tier IM program is exactly?

Look at their fellowship match rates, and what fellowships they match to. A top tier program matches 85%+ to almost entirely competitive specialties. A mid tier will be 70%+ to mostly competitive with a few lesser competitive fellowships thrown in. A bottom tier academic will be 50%+ with around a 50/50 mix of highly competitive to uncompetitive fellowships. You kind of have to look at each program individually, it's a pain in the ***.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Look at their fellowship match rates, and what fellowships they match to. A top tier program matches 85%+ to almost entirely competitive specialties. A mid tier will be 70%+ to mostly competitive with a few lesser competitive fellowships thrown in. A bottom tier academic will be 50%+ with around a 50/50 mix of highly competitive to uncompetitive fellowships. You kind of have to look at each program individually, it's a pain in the ***.

Let me follow up with a question on more lower tier places that DOs will mainly look for. What are things that those programs should have to make you know that they're a good place to train? Some people on this forum have mentioned the importance of in-house fellowships for DOs to have good chances at matching, should DOs who want fellowships look for a program with a fellowship of their interest?

 

[Mad Jack]

Let me follow up with a question on more lower tier places that DOs will mainly look for. What are things that those programs should have to make you know that they're a good place to train? Some people on this forum have mentioned the importance of in-house fellowships for DOs to have good chances at matching, should DOs who want fellowships look for a program with a fellowship of their interest?

1: Good fellowship match rates.
2: In-house fellowships that tend to take their own.
3: Residents that enjoy being there when you're on interview (as much as is reasonable)

I'm sure the people in the IM forums could give you way more extensive tips than that, but that's the three biggest things I've gathered from prodding at them with my questions.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

1: Good fellowship match rates.
2: In-house fellowships that tend to take their own.
3: Residents that enjoy being there when you're on interview (as much as is reasonable)

I'm sure the people in the IM forums could give you way more extensive tips than that, but that's the three biggest things I've gathered from prodding at them with my questions.

I see.

Thanks

 

[Danglebells]

Look at their fellowship match rates, and what fellowships they match to. A top tier program matches 85%+ to almost entirely competitive specialties. A mid tier will be 70%+ to mostly competitive with a few lesser competitive fellowships thrown in. A bottom tier academic will be 50%+ with around a 50/50 mix of highly competitive to uncompetitive fellowships. You kind of have to look at each program individually, it's a pain in the ***.

Gotta love m1s and their boners for the "tier" system.

As a point of reference- from the years 2005-2014, Mass General.... Which is almost unanimously declared the most prestigious residency program for IM, had 67% go into "competitive specialties"


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[Mad Jack]

Gotta love m1s and their boners for the "tier" system.

As a point of reference- from the years 2005-2014, Mass General.... Which is almost unanimously declared the most prestigious residency program for IM, had 67% go into "competitive specialties"


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I said mostly competitive. And I'm not a M1 dude. The 85%+ that I stated specifically said almost entirely competitive- maybe I was 5% off, but MG is probably 65% competitive, with the remaining 35% largely ending up in other specialties, for a total of 80%+ specializing.

 

[Danglebells]

I said mostly competitive. And I'm not a M1 dude. The 85%+ that I stated specifically said almost entirely competitive- maybe I was 5% off, but MG is probably 65% competitive, with the remaining 35% largely ending up in other specialties, for a total of 80%+ specializing.

*backpedal backpedal backpedal*





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[Mad Jack]

*backpedal backpedal backpedal*





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Given that only 22% of general internal medicine residents eventually go into general internal medicine, my 85% number is far more in-line with statistics than your personal attacks- if 78% of IM residents specialize, you can damn well expect that more than the average do from MGH. The specialties that those residents are able to specialize in, however is largely determined by their residency's perceived strength.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Given that only 22% of general internal medicine residents eventually go into general internal medicine, my 85% number is far more in-line with statistics than your personal attacks- if 78% of IM residents specialize, you can damn well expect that more than the average do from MGH. The specialties that those residents are able to specialize in, however is largely determined by their residency's perceived strength.

What do they qualify as general internal medicine tho? Primary care and Hospitalist or just Hospitalist?

Idk, I still have difficulty buying that the majority of IM residents sub specialize. I mean where are the primary care physicians coming from exactly?

 

[Mad Jack]

What do they qualify as general internal medicine tho? Primary care and Hospitalist or just Hospitalist?

Idk, I still have difficulty buying that the majority of IM residents sub specialize. I mean where are the primary care physicians coming from exactly?

If I were to guess, I'd bet it is US MDs, and includes anyone that does not obtain a fellowship. Which still fits for top residencies, since almost all of their students are non-US MDs.

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

Weird, we had 14 match GS in 2014 and 10 in 2015.

That's the problem I frequently run into in a nutshell. It's a mixed bag- on the one hand, being a DO gives you a lot more opportunities than not being a physician, and isn't all bad depending on what you want out of your career. But on the other, you're totally written off by a lot of residencies, and your chances of getting a decent fellowship just aren't as good. That's it, both sides. But when I see that 40+ people want to be surgeons in my class and we didn't have a single categorical general surgery match last year (we had some specialty surgery matches, but not a ton) that kind of bugs me. People's expectations are all too often not in line with reality.

 

[Mad Jack]

Weird, we had 14 match GS in 2014 and 10 in 2015.

And we recruit heavily for primary care. All I'm sayin' is that the number of people that want to do something and the number that get to are probably far more divided in DO schools than MD schools.

 

[costales]

Idk, I still have difficulty buying that the majority of IM residents sub specialize.

From ABIM:

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

From ABIM:

So basically ~60% of IM residents sub specialize ( Not counting AOA IM which I guess might deflate that precent a bit). Ok, that makes more sense, thank you.

 

[Jinxapotato]

I mean..you got DO acceptance and still have a few MD schools to hear back from right? You are pretty much in the same position that I was at last year. I'd recommend putting down the deposit for your DO school (choose 1), and wait for the MD schools that you seem very eager to get into. IF MD takes you, you loose a few hundred bucks and go for that MD, big deal. If no MD take you, then I'd say it's time to go DO. You've been applying 3 cycles already, you must have exhausted your pool of "likely-to-get-in" schools, and they have already rejected you, so what's the point of trying more?

In addition, I second what the earlier posts said, the DO vs MD bias really comes in when you are going for the competitive specialties (think derm/ophtho, gen. surg is achievable as DO)...For the rest, meh, who cares if you are MD or DO?

 

[68PGunner]

That's the problem I frequently run into in a nutshell. It's a mixed bag- on the one hand, being a DO gives you a lot more opportunities than not being a physician, and isn't all bad depending on what you want out of your career. But on the other, you're totally written off by a lot of residencies, and your chances of getting a decent fellowship just aren't as good. That's it, both sides. But when I see that 40+ people want to be surgeons in my class and we didn't have a single categorical general surgery match last year (we had some specialty surgery matches, but not a ton) that kind of bugs me. People's expectations are all too often not in line with reality.

They should have taken the HPSP then. DOs and MDs are equivalently viewed by PDs in the military.