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"Affirmative Action"-The Myth Behind the Impact on ds Admission.

Discussion in 'Pre-Dental' started by doc toothache, Sep 14, 2008.

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  1. DrReo

    DrReo "Thread Necromancer"

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    What if the application was ambiguous with regards to gender and race? Whether its a job application to academia, each has the applicant separate themselves into a certain category, in this case, their race. This would help advance the application process to be based largely on personal merit.
  2. Oracle DMD

    Oracle DMD Chuck NOracle DMD Moderator Emeritus

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    should we choose to be blind to race? that would be ignoring the history of racism from which we have already and to continue to benefit. we need to stand up, accept, and make amends with our past, not ignore it. our profession needs to proactively integrate, and to do that we need to make our schools more accesible to a population that we have historically excluded from our ranks. they will still have to pass the same boards as everyone else, but URM's should have a bit of a upperhand in admissions. like it has already been mentioned, even with aa, it would probly barely even out the legacies.
    ToothbrushBuddy likes this.
  3. DrReo

    DrReo "Thread Necromancer"

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    That defines descrimination


    Then why not the same admissions criteria? Aside from the history of previous ancestors.

    In all honesty, I wish there were no such thing as URM. Everyone should have a fair shot based on their hard work, dedication to the field, known as personal merit.



    On a side note, I wonder how many legacies sneak in each year? I know of one.
  4. Ranelar

    Ranelar

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    It sounds like you think that 97.9% of all Asian applicants get in. That's an incorrect reading of the stat. It is comparing two populations, the percent of Asians who applied to dental school, and the percent of Asians IN dental school. Assuming everything and everyone is equal, there should be a 1:1 correlation for every single race. In reality, there was a -2.1% population difference between the percent applied and percent enrolled, and therefore one might infer that Asians have a more difficult time getting in than other races that have >/= 1:1 ratio.
  5. Oracle DMD

    Oracle DMD Chuck NOracle DMD Moderator Emeritus

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    i don't think aa is discriminating against whites, it's just a small correction or normalization if you will, for the advantage (historical and otherwise) that whites enjoy. when URM's stop being UR then we won't need it, but untill then we unfortunatly do need aa. i would venture to say 1-6 average is a modest, conservative, and safe bet nationwide...i figure at least the same amount as the average number of african americans that get accepted...
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  6. PDizzle

    PDizzle PreDents.com Partner Organization

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    As far as legacys go, nothing irritates me more. i know it happens but there is very little we can do about it.

    As far as URM getting an advanatge, that is discrimination...any way you slice it. It is not logical to punish people of a certain race because another race had a bad shake in the past.

    Oracle, you said that we can't ignore the past inequalities/injustices and we, assuming white people, have to "stand up and do something about it". I could not respectfully disagree with you more. That is just as unfair as the treatment minorities received in the past. Two wrongs do not make a right. Ignoring the issue is EXACTLY what needs to happen. Race and sex should not even be on the application! The longer we make race an issue, the longer it stays an issue.

    As an example, Oracle, would you become a black person's slave for a year or two to make amends? Would you do that?

    That's my opinion anyway
  7. Dental Mom

    Dental Mom

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    Hey R, this whole URM is a temporary thing to increase the number of minorities in the health care field. It won't be for ever. The country is still adjusting to changes and in the future there won't be a need to put your race down.

    I'm Hispanic and 1/2 black and from where I come from, things are a lot more equal than USA....many things are still behind when it comes to race here. As a nation we will get there and this is just one way to increase the numbers.

    I'm not an expert in the subject--since I honestly don't understand it. I grew up with a white mom, a black dad, one Caribbean-Indian grandma and the other black. Both grandpas were white men. Race or nationality was never an issue.

    To this day we call my dad "el negro" (the black man) and I was always called "canelita" (cinnamon girl) because of my tan....

    I heard on NPR yesterday that today in USA 1 out of 5 children are Hispanic. That blew me away!

    My children are very multiracial too and in 20 yrs from now who knows, there may not be a need to put on applications race....I don't know what to put down for their race.
  8. Oracle DMD

    Oracle DMD Chuck NOracle DMD Moderator Emeritus

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    i definately understand what you're saying. however i'd argue that whether or not we make it an issue....it'll still be an issue! whether or not we acknowledge it is up to all of us, but it will be an issue regardless. even if race and gender were not on the app, it would certainly be apparent at the interview. let us not forget that many admissions committees are comprised of old white men. not that they are automatically racist, but perhaps they might not understand the stuggle of URM's quite so much and therefore underestimate the extra work/ hurdles involved in getting to the same place as a white male couterpart. making it "fair or color-blind" now is good in theory, but not in practice.
  9. PDizzle

    PDizzle PreDents.com Partner Organization

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    What hurdles do you speak of when it comes to URM? Socio-economic hardships I can fully understand. Coming from an underprivileged area can make things a lot harder and should def be considered in an application...but race should not. For instance, I grew up in a middle class suburb. My next door neighbor was black. He went to the same school I did. His parents worked at the same company as my parents did (actually worked with my father). Why should he get any advantage over me? Unless you think minorities are less intellectual than whites/asians and need help to balance their mental shortcomings(which I'm sure you don't...just mak'n a point).

    To give advantage to a race means you give disadvantage to another race. No one can argue that...that's just math:). I think we differ in that I feel that it is just reverse discrimination and will only make race relations harder to deal with in the future. It's a "quick-fix" that makes things appear to be equal and fair when in actuality it is farthest from.
  10. Oracle DMD

    Oracle DMD Chuck NOracle DMD Moderator Emeritus

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    i don't think i'm the person who should speak to the hurdles of the minorities. (maybe somethinpositive can contribute...she seems to be the authority!hahajk) i grew up low-middle class way out in the country, so i get the socioeconomic point but i was never at a disadvatage due to my race. i can tell you that in my neck of the woods in west va, like many parts of the country, if you were a minority you sure as hell were at a disadvantage. no disrespect to my appalachian americans out there but if you grew up anywhere near west va you've seen racism and bigotry first hand and out in the open. so for a minority, if they came from where i did, and got to the exact same place in life w/ the same numbers or even close, i think being a miority should be considered/ put them over the top! (not that it would take that much to get over my numbers!hahaha) how much i don't know but i should be considered. the minorities in my town had an uphill battle from day 1. from teachers, to employers, to everything else...i'm glad i didn't have to go through that. and it wasn't even as bad as it used to be!!! at the very least i can say that its a factor and it's still around and it IS an isssue.
  11. PDizzle

    PDizzle PreDents.com Partner Organization

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    Well, I did grow up in NorCal and my area didn't have anywhere near the same mentality as yours did so I guess I'm going by my own experiences. In my area it wasn't a big deal at all, in fact even back in the early 80's it was really frowned upon to discriminate against minorities. But this is just one perspective.

    I agree that it is still an issue, I think we just disagree on how best to quickly and fairly resolve said issue. We both want the same thing..equality.

    You know what we really need? Martians to come down and join our world. That way it will be the humans against the martians! Two humans having different skin color aint nut'n compared to some dude having 6 eye balls and 8 tentacles coming out of his face!
  12. Oracle DMD

    Oracle DMD Chuck NOracle DMD Moderator Emeritus

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    hahahaha yeah WV isn't cali and WV isn't even close to as bad as it gets deeper down in the south where the civil war is still referred as "the war of yankee aggression". (i kid you not i've heard that come out of people's mouths and they were NOT joking) yes, we at least agree in principle which is the important thing!
  13. lovelyinpink11

    lovelyinpink11

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    I don't really see how minorities are being given an advantage, especially when there so few seats that AA/admissions offers. Not just any minority is accepted. In most cases they at least have to be somewhat competitive. Everyone keeps suggesting to make admissions blind to race, but that can't be done because this entire country is NOT blind to race in all other aspects of life. I do agree that minorities need to strive all together to get higher stats to match those of whites/asians. But the issue of AA in my eyes isn't about minorities not getting fair acceptance (as it was in the past) as it is there is a more urgent need to have minorities serve their communities. It is necessary for AA to stand so that more minorities can serve their communities because whites don't typically reach out and serve them.

    Life is unfair, period. Main thing is to worry about yourself and do the best that you can. If you are white, you have ~90% of the seats to fight for. If you want to get in, be the best, but especially in your racial bracket (this includes minorities).
  14. setdoc7

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    Not a pity card. And as I said, when a caucasian student walks into their first day of college, they can not be identified from everyone else. And like I said, plenty of folks get into school for reasons other than merit. The few seats going to AA are not as significant. Fix the fat cats first.
  15. lemcnei2

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    okay i really don't agree with AA because it doesn't really solve the problem but i understand the mentality behind it. It is an attempt to offset URM that most of the time do not have the same educational opportunities as the majority of Caucasians. Notice i said majority,not all. Some whites are just as bad off as many of the URM, and vice versa. Some minorities greatly outscore Caucasians in tests and etc.

    Most URM are more likely to go lower ranked high schools because of their locations. They are less likely to be able to afford educational opportunities and are less likely to have parents that encourage higher education. They are alot of social factors that go into this.

    I really think the correction should occur during secondary and earlier education to correct this problem not in graduate and professional school. However, if you are absolutely against AA and you have a solution to correct the disparities in education between URM and whites, then please send this suggestion to your nearest congressman so we could have a better solution to the problem.

    I also agree that racism goes both ways. There are just as many racist black people or URM as there are racist white people, and i don't agree with it at all.

    But one thing i strongly encourage is before you automatically assumethat a person was granted admission simply because they are URM please consider all the caucasians who are admitted everyday because of money, sports, alumni of a particular program, parents donate money to a particular institution. it is unfair to point the finger at the 1.5%-5% of URM that are dentists,to justify why you are not in dental school. It such a small percent to be the cause of such greif among so many people.
  16. lemcnei2

    lemcnei2

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    why is assumed that URM all had help getting into professional school? you do know that white women are primary beneficiaries of afirmative action right???? look it up
  17. lazybummy

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    I thought it's poor white men .. (based on my recall from 10th grade). I'll stay out of this topic.. Affirmative action.. too sensitive *dodge bullet*
  18. wwdaffodils

    wwdaffodils

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    Has anyone listened to Ben Folds, "Rockin' the Suburbs"? It sounds offensive at first but it's meant to be a satire on race relations in an overly pc society; the song is written from a white man's point of view. He talks about how everyone looks at him funny all the time just because he's a middle class white male and "someone's great great great great granddad enslaved.. It wasn't my idea". I'm not a middle class white male, so I can't say, but if you think about it, it must really stink to be overlooked from all ends- race, gender, class...
  19. ToldYouSo

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    I don't understand affirmative action, take the applicants with the best stats, their skin can be green for all I care.
  20. doc3232

    doc3232

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    I was speaking overall about these stats. I don't have the option to be specific.

    Minority acceptances barely affect non-minority admissions first of all. Second, read up on it if you want to understand why it works.
  21. reapply2007

    reapply2007 Senior Member

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    I love this thread! Lots of things go into a d-school admission decision-if you get admitted make sure you thank the dean of admissions for letting you in. If you don't get in, call the admissions people and ask why and also how you can make you re-application better.
  22. sixkiller

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    I'll admit it doesn't really affect non-minority admissions, but it doesn't do much to counter negative stereotypes about URMs; that they can't do it without some sort of crutch or hand out.

    I'm not sure how AA works if the bar isn't raised for URMs. I was under the impression that the objective was to level the playing field. At some point, they are going to have to pull their own weight in terms of their stats.

    Yes, numbers are not everything, but still a vital component nonetheless.
  23. doc3232

    doc3232

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    There is obviously a problem in society when they are not getting the same stats. The field is not fair. Until then, I think the current system is fair.
  24. midwestboy

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    :thumbup:
  25. thesituationPhD

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    I'm jewish. Should I reap the benefits of AA? Lets get real.
  26. mr24

    mr24

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    hell, why not?
  27. HernandezDDS

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    I stumbled across this post by accident and it's unfair speculation to say minorities lower the school stats. I myself come from a low income community (equivalent of Watts) and my DAT scores are about 2 standard deviations above the mean and my GPA is high considering the fact that I attended a prestigious university.

    It's all a matter of very hard work, academic mentors and people that support minority students and know the many challenges we face to get there.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  28. Predent25

    Predent25

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    I'll be damned if I let someone with a 12AA put a drill in my mouth, regardless of color.
  29. AwesomeTeeth

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    Too bad you'll never know their DAT score.....
  30. Predent25

    Predent25

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    Very true. I suppose if I had the choice, I would prefer a competent dentist, regardless of their race, who EARNED the right to practice dentistry through academic achievement. Not because their opportunity is "owed" to them. Call me picky lol.
  31. Cello

    Cello

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    In my opinion, AA should be economically based. A poor white student is typically just as disadvantaged as a poor black or Hispanic student. Conversely, a wealthy black or hispanic student is typically just as advantaged as a wealthy white student. The difference is, per capita, there are more poor black/Hispanic children than poor white children, and more wealthy white children than wealthy black/Hispanic children due to institutionalized racism and our nation's history. But, that said, any child who comes from poverty is disadvantaged, regardless of color or ethnicity.
  32. Predent25

    Predent25

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    Well said!
  33. DDarlingD

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    Highly mis-informed, all things equal, a wealthy Black/Hispanic Applicant is NOT as Advantaged as their White counterpart. Unfortunately, social norms, biases, and racism still work against them.
  34. AwesomeTeeth

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    Highly misinformed. Tell me a situation where a black/hispanic applicant was prevented from achieving their dream and going to dental school. This is 2012. Not 1952. You work hard, then you succeed. No one's stopping you except the illusion of biases and racism.
  35. Cello

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    I respectfully disagree. There may be FEWER wealthy blacks/Hispanics per capita, but that does not mean that they are significantly disadvantaged in comparison to other wealthy Caucasians. Young Asian Americans have experienced far less discrimination than Hispanics, and I think that it could be demonstrated that this is largely because of economic factors. Both are minorities, but the key difference between Hispanics and Asians as a group is economic, and I believe that to be the key factor between any disadvantaged student and their wealthier peer.
  36. HernandezDDS

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    :thumbup: True the economic aspect is directly linked with the type of education that you are given (at least at the pre-college level ).....but as a group URM still experience discrimination from fellow classmates/instructors even in college because of the way they look and the generalizations that people make.........sad realization but definately true.......thus many factors need to be taken into account..........
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2012
  37. omnipoDent

    omnipoDent

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    Would these generalizations people make be similar to the generalization that non-URM fellow classmates/instructors discriminate against others based on the way they look?
  38. AwesomeTeeth

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    Tell me what discrimination you've experienced that prevented you from doing well in your classes and getting into dental school. You control your own destiny. This isn't like getting picked for the basketball team.......

    People make excuses for anything these days.
  39. Bereno

    Bereno Smoking Monkey

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    lol :laugh:

    [​IMG]
  40. As with any policy, there are always loop holes. Some URMs really do face discrimination and conditions that aren't conducive to learning. On the other hand, you have the URMs that don't face those conditions, but take advantage of the policy. This is where you decide if the positives outweigh the negatives or vice versa. Then, you make a decision on it.
  41. LaFleur

    LaFleur All flavor. No bite.

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    I think this is an extremely insensitive thing to say from someone who is most likely naive and sheltered. Discrimination exists at every level of the educational ladder, and not to recognize that is ignorant. No one should have to tell you their own personal stories so you can judge whether they are making excuses or not. Honestly, who are you to judge?

    Insensitivity, lack of compassion, and a lack of willingness to try to understand the circumstances of others does not serve one well as a person, let alone a healthcare provider. Note that I'm not trying to say anything about what kind of a person you are or what kind of a healthcare provider you'll be, as I don't actually know you, but that's what this one post screams to me.

    Completely agree with this here.
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2012
  42. MaceG1

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    Couldn't agree with LaFleur anymore. It's one thing to be for or against AA, but to deny the simple existence of discrimination is outrageous.
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  43. Bereno

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    +1
  44. doc toothache

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    Isn't that a contradiction of the definition of destiny?
  45. AwesomeTeeth

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    Poor choice of word on my behalf. "Future" would have been more appropriate.

    You pretty much just called me naive, sheltered and a terrible person/healthcare provider. I'm anti-affirmative action and don't believe that people should be given an advantage because they're URM. Too many people make excuses for their educational shortcomings instead of taking action to improve their situation or life. That's my opinion. Does that make me insensitive, lack compassion, and unwilling to understand? I don't think so.
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2012
  46. First, I want to point out that I do respect your opinion.

    However, I just wanted to ask a question. If what you're saying is true and URMs do not encounter conditions (ex: discrimination) that limit their learning, then how do you explain the fact that these races are under-represented in fields of medical, dental, etc.?

    If you don't believe discrimination is the reason why certain races are underrepresented, then you must have an alternative explanation for why these races are underrepresented. The only possible alternative explanation I can think of is people who are anti-AA believe URMs are less intelligent or less hard-working. Do you believe this or do you have another alternative explanation for why URM's are not abundant in certain fields?

    I hope you understand what I'm trying to ask.
  47. MaceG1

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    +1
  48. yappy

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    College and way late in the game to start tipping the scales to even everything out (even though race at this point has nothing to do with anyones professional school admission misfortunes on a macro scale).

    To the poster above - I think that some URM cultures in america are unproductive, lazy, and create most of their own problems.

    Time to get real. Time to grow up. Welcome to 2012. No excuses.

    EDIT: just to be clear... I'm against any type of racism. If it's found put an end to it. But dont make limp standards for one race and harder ones for another.
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2012
  49. Cello

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    The reason is economics. Poor white kids have a much harder time getting into colleges than their wealthier peers too, it's not about skin color, it's about the economic divide. The difference between Caucasians and most minorities is that white kids are LESS LIKELY to be poor than are MOST minorities (not necessarily all). Poverty is the key obstacle before most URMs as a result of institutional racism, but it is poverty which truly disadvantages most students. A white child in a poverty stricken block in the inner city will likely have just as few prospects as their underprivileged black peers who grew up in the same neighborhood. A wealthy black child (Obama's daughters for instance) will likely have all of the advantages of their white peers. Again, it's a game of proportions. White children and even Asian children as a whole tend to be better off economically than their black and Hispanic peers, which is why blacks and Hispanics tend to be URMs while Asians usually are not (at least, it is my understanding that they are not).

    That said, it should not be about race, because then the system is locked into classifying people based upon their skin color and ethnicity rather than their individual circumstances. A system based on economic circumstances would be essentially unbiased against all colors and ethnicities because it would not be based upon skin color or ethnicity, rather individual economic circumstance. Such a system would be more inclined to view students more as individuals (and more importantly, as PEOPLE) rather than statistics. The moment you give OR take something away from someone based upon their ethnicity, you have succeeded in dividing them from the rest of society based upon the color of their skin, which seems to be a step back from a society which values equality for ALL races.
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2012
  50. TikiTorchUSA

    TikiTorchUSA

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    There are less URMs in America than Caucasians. That's exactly why they're called a minority and I agree with the economic factor. Most URMs don't come from stable households that foster education as a cradle of success. A poor community is trying to survive, kids from those communities often fail out of high school let alone go to ugrad. There are a lot of socioeconomic factors at play. For example, a good percentage of students applying to medical, dental or optometry school tend to be individuals who come from households that have doctors, dentist or optometrists as immediate family. URMs have significantly less footing in professional schools all across the board. While discrimination exists, I don't see it as a major factor that's preventing minorities from attending professional schools.

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