Age 30 w/ 2.44 undergrad & 3.8 grad GPA. Doomed?

[dr2004]

Hey everyone!

Wanted to get some quick insight for anyone willing to share. Quick recap: had a horrible undergrad experience with a 2.44 GPA in psychology. Took a 3 premed classes didn't do well but didn't do much either. Graduated though and went on to work full time in a field close to medicine, went after my MPH at a different university and had to do some extensive work to get into grad school. Wrapping up my MPH now with a 3.8 GPA. Career is going really well but hitting a plateau of what I can achieve.

I'll have some significant research under my belt and work with physicians on a daily basis now. I'm passionate about medical science and would love to work on pre-med classes and MCAT prep. But if my undergrad GPA makes this impossible I don't want to waste the time or money.

I was thinking of doing post bacc work in premed classes at my university (and working my butt off).

Do I have the ability to move forward from my undergrad? Or does that GPA doom me?

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[Goro]

MPH'S really don't remediate poor UG grades. Suggest an SMP.

 

[Eccesignum]

How much your GPA moves with each credit is determined by how many credit hours your have (diminishing returns). The only way you'll be able to see for your own situation is by finding a GPA calculator (there are some on SDN if you search) and plugging in every UG class you've ever taken, then plugging in mythical A's until you see the GPA you want. That'll tell you how much work you have ahead of you.

That said -- it's probably going to take a ton of work, not gonna lie. To give an idea, I had a 2.71 before and after an associate's degree at 4.0 and an entire new bachelor's degree at 3.9 (over 150 hours later), my cumulative is now only a 3.28.

If you are open to DO, they have a policy called grade replacement, where if you go back and retake any class they'll only look at the second grade you earn. So if you retook all your C's and below from undergrad you could potentially lift your uGPA up quite a bit. DO schools will also consider your master's GPA while MD will not. This might be your best and/or only option.

 

[DrMikeP]

Hey everyone!

Wanted to get some quick insight for anyone willing to share. Quick recap: had a horrible undergrad experience with a 2.44 GPA in psychology. Took a 3 premed classes didn't do well but didn't do much either. Graduated though and went on to work full time in a field close to medicine, went after my MPH at a different university and had to do some extensive work to get into grad school. Wrapping up my MPH now with a 3.8 GPA. Career is going really well but hitting a plateau of what I can achieve.

I'll have some significant research under my belt and work with physicians on a daily basis now. I'm passionate about medical science and would love to work on pre-med classes and MCAT prep. But if my undergrad GPA makes this impossible I don't want to waste the time or money.

I was thinking of doing post bacc work in premed classes at my university (and working my butt off).

Do I have the ability to move forward from my undergrad? Or does that GPA doom me?

Do an SMP OR retake core science reqs and any science classes you made a C or lower in independently at a local college. DO's are good with grade replacement. If you can't make mostly A's in the core sciences then med school might not be the thing for you.

 

[KP2AZ]

retake anything below B+ in undergrad. you can do so at any public school and be fine.

 

[DrMidlife]

Folks are emphasizing that a path forward exists, which is true, but they're making it sound too easy. You "are" a 2.44. That means you did 4 years of undergrad work without demonstrating the academic capability med schools require. You're still on the hook to produce a multiple year, very strong, mostly science, full time undergrad performance. Any idea you get that it's going to take you less than 3+ years to prepare to apply to med school isn't a good idea. Which means you're looking at more than a decade, and a good $300k outlay (borrowed or otherwise), before you are in practice making a six figure income.

There is no basis here to be talking about SMPs yet. An SMP may be an option to increase your chances after you've done multiple successful full time years of undergrad mostly science, and after you've done well enough on the MCAT to add confidence to your academic story.

Your success in the MPH does not help with the premed academic burden of proof, but in my view that 3.8 MPH GPA says you may be ready for the work of a premed curriculum. The med school prereqs are the graveyard of dreams.

No sane nor useful premed adviser would encourage you to pursue medicine with your damage. There is no playbook, no recipe. You absolutely cannot use the same yardstick as the cookie cutter premed kiddoes. But, if you are diligent in reading the vast body of work on SDN from those who have made it from where you are, you will find what you need to figure this out.

I recommend moving to Texas and getting a job on a college campus. I'll leave it as an exercise for you to figure out why.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Cawolf]

It would take you roughly four years of full-time school to raise your GPA to an acceptable level.

 

[Ad2b]

There is no playbook, no recipe. But, if you are diligent in reading the vast body of work on SDN from those who have made it from where you are, you will find what you need to figure this out.

If you do this, if you listen to others' stories, if you tread slowly, carefully, diligently, get A's (!!!), then med school is not out of the question. But any of us, who are the reinventionist types, have spent YEARS creating a package that just might (emphasis on might), be acceptable to an adcom somewhere.

 

[DrMidlife]

It would take you roughly four years of full-time school to raise your GPA to an acceptable level.

Math would suggest there's no way to get an acceptable cumulative undergrad GPA from a 2.44. At best, you can break 3.0, which is important to get in the game. By my figures, breaking 3.0 from 2.44 would take about 3 and a half years at a 3.7. 4 years at a 4.0 gets to about 3.2. Hard to argue for more than breaking 3.0 in this case, vs. moving on to an SMP.

From a 2.44 in a non-science major, doing grade replacement would be a pointless slog, but DO schools are still the best bet in this case. After doing undergrad redemption and doing ok on the MCAT, moving on to a masters program at a DO school would remove risk from the plan.

I keep saying there's no formula, but I also keep suggesting the following:
1. Produce a multiple year, mostly science, full time undergraduate academic performance with a 3.6+.
1a. Assume getting that 3.6+ from a non-science sub-3.0 is almost impossible, because med school prereqs are going to be substantially harder than prior work, and because you're competing against the hopes & dreams of America to get that A.
1b. No, grad work does not prepare you to be back in undergrad science, which is much less about thinking and much more about accreting.
(Side note: I've seen the verb "accrete" used in like 3 news media items in the last week. Did somebody do a TED talk and use the word or something? Obviously no exposure to obstetrics...)
2. Get the undergrad GPA high enough so that med schools will not automatically reject the app. Generally DO schools and the home state public MD schools will be more likely to look at an app with a low-but-redeemed cumulative undergrad GPA. Redeemed means #1 above has been done.
2a. It takes work for a med school to see that a low cGPA has been redeemed. Generally med schools have no motivation to do that work. Thus as mentioned above, in a low GPA comeback you have no guarantee of getting accepted anywhere, and you had better not add any requirements such as location or cost to the mix.
3. There can be absolutely nothing else wrong with your app.
3a. There must be a huge pile of compelling assets in your app to counter the low GPA. Very high MCAT. Very strong letters. Very interesting ECs. Very strong interview.
3b. You'll leave interviews thinking you killed it, and then you'll still land in low waitlist territory because your stats ruin your chances.
4. Be willing to walk away. Yes there are other things you can do that will scratch that career itch.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Ad2b]

Yes there are other things you can do that will scratch that career itch.

At OP, I 100% agree with everything else Dr. Midlife said except the line above. I tried for 20 years to scratch it and nothing ever did it... so, I took classes.

Took the pre-reqs, got almost all A's. Then I took extra courses: biochem, genetics, medical mycology, human genetics, cancer biology, microbiology and whatever else I can get into before summer '17.

I'm also praying I slay the MCAT. 516+ or bust.

The point is, the itch - if that is truly what it is - never goes away. It is up to you, however, to figure out how to prove that you are capable. MORE capable than your (our) younger peers who do not have the obstacle we face. The abysmal GPA.

Good luck to you!

 

[Cawolf]

At best, you can break 3.0, which is important to get in the game.

This is the break-point I was referring to - the minimum point where you may not get auto-screened.

I was barely above 3.0 this cycle, but I relied on many other aspects of my application to be successful.

 

[tnedoots]

I started back to UG at 30. I'm 37 now and wrapping up my 2nd year of med school. The advice here, especially by Dr. Midlife, you would do well to heed.
One of my favorite questions to ask people is: what would you go back and tell yourself when you were in the place I am now. So, with that in mind, here's what I would tell the 30 year old me. Hopefully it helps.

After 7 years into this process with at least 5 to go, I realize just how HUGE of a sacrifice this is. I am not a "normal" person. And I don't mean that my personality is a bit off (it is, but that's irrelevant). I mean that I don't have a "normal" life. For example: I had little control as to where I went for med school and will have about the same, if not less, control as to the location of residency. My life is consumed by exams and studying. Also, after having real jobs with leadership positions, I now find myself in a position where I'm forced to seek the approval of others, chase people for opportunities, send multiple emails hoping to get a response, etc. Basically, there is little real control that I have over what I do and where I live. All of this while I see my age-peers going on vacation, having "real" careers, making "real" money. It is definitely something that I thought I understood before going into this, but now know I didn't really understand as far as the magnitude of the sacrifice.

Now, with that being said, I know at the end this will be worth it. I do not regret my decisions. However, I do wish I understood the sacrifice beforehand.
While you decide whether or not it's possible for you to get to the end of this path, make sure you consider how much you're willing to sacrifice to get there.

Good luck in whatever you decide!

 

[DrMidlife]

The point is, the itch - if that is truly what it is - never goes away.

My itch to be a principal ballerina isn't going away either. But.

 

[Eternal_Premed_Struggle]

Having a sub 3.0 uGPA doesn't get you screened out in every school. But, in my opinion, your application would need to stand out in every other aspect to have a shot. Is it impossible for you to matriculate? probably not. But it's going to be a long uphill battle. Also, get used to being told "No".

 

[JTallas77]

To bring up your GPA, you can take online courses as well.

 

[Shotapp]

To bring up your GPA, you can take online courses as well.

@OP

No to any online course work (bad advice). With your gpa you'll want take courses at a 4 year college or community college ( your pick). Fastest path to becoming a physician (DO) is grade replacement (simply retake all F/D/C coursework and apply early and broadly to osteopathic schools). If MD is your choice then take more upper division coursework (get A's a sprinkle of B's and apply to a SMP hosted at an allopathic school). Kill the SMP, MCAT and apply early broadly. Easier said then done but with patience and dedication it is achievable.

 

[Ad2b]

My itch to be a principal ballerina isn't going away either. But.

But did you pirouette on a bar for years trying to scratch it? Or did you simply look at the potential and stop before starting?

 

[Ad2b]

To bring up your GPA, you can take online courses as well.

Terrible advice and for a 1st post, I call :troll:

 

[DrMikeP]

First step is retaking courses and making As . Realistically most never make it beyond basic req sciences. Until that point it's all just blind guesses.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Ad2b]

First step is retaking courses and making As . Realistically most never make it beyond basic req sciences. Until that point it's all just blind guesses.

Yep. Most get through bio 1 or gchem 1 and then hit thermo of gen chem 2 or orgo 1 or physics 1 and then quit asking "why can't I just take biology courses?!?!?!"

 

[OchemOficionado]

Folks are emphasizing that a path forward exists, which is true, but they're making it sound too easy. You "are" a 2.44. That means you did 4 years of undergrad work without demonstrating the academic capability med schools require. You're still on the hook to produce a multiple year, very strong, mostly science, full time undergrad performance. Any idea you get that it's going to take you less than 3+ years to prepare to apply to med school isn't a good idea. Which means you're looking at more than a decade, and a good $300k outlay (borrowed or otherwise), before you are in practice making a six figure income.

There is no basis here to be talking about SMPs yet. An SMP may be an option to increase your chances after you've done multiple successful full time years of undergrad mostly science, and after you've done well enough on the MCAT to add confidence to your academic story.

Your success in the MPH does not help with the premed academic burden of proof, but in my view that 3.8 MPH GPA says you may be ready for the work of a premed curriculum. The med school prereqs are the graveyard of dreams.

No sane nor useful premed adviser would encourage you to pursue medicine with your damage. There is no playbook, no recipe. You absolutely cannot use the same yardstick as the cookie cutter premed kiddoes. But, if you are diligent in reading the vast body of work on SDN from those who have made it from where you are, you will find what you need to figure this out.

I recommend moving to Texas and getting a job on a college campus. I'll leave it as an exercise for you to figure out why.

Best of luck to you.

I love your detailed and honest responses! I'd love a moment of your time and advice on my situation if you get the chance, please. I've PM'd you. Straight, no chaser!

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Is there a way to make it out? Yes, but my honest is advice is don't. I made a comeback from a 2.8 and it was a painful 3 years of going to school, volunteering, working and barely making ends meet. With a 2.44, your case will be a lot worse. I suggest you find a way to get into one of those accelerated programs in nursing and go into NP. My friend did his prerequisites, entered an accelerated 2 year program to get an MSN and now is about to go into NP. He'll be out of school faster and doing what he wants. Move to some state where you can work independently and you'll be fine.

 

[JTallas77]

@OP

No to any online course work (bad advice). With your gpa you'll want take courses at a 4 year college or community college ( your pick). Fastest path to becoming a physician (DO) is grade replacement (simply retake all F/D/C coursework and apply early and broadly to osteopathic schools). If MD is your choice then take more upper division coursework (get A's a sprinkle of B's and apply to a SMP hosted at an allopathic school). Kill the SMP, MCAT and apply early broadly. Easier said then done but with patience and dedication it is achievable.

Hey,

How are you?

Just for my own knowledge, why are online courses considered bad?

Thanks

 

[Shotapp]

@JTallas77

Not all online course work is bad (I shouldn't have used the word any). Medical schools usually prefer the required prerequisite courses to be done/completed in a traditional classroom setting at a four institution as opposed to an online one. In regards to the OP's predicament, online courses in the sciences would not help him and it would not convince adcoms that he/she can handle medical school curriculum. He/she needs to retake/do science coursework in a traditional classroom setting so that he/she can off set his/her past mistakes and build rapport with lecturers to solidify getting letters of recommendations.

 

[Dreamislandcaptive]

Retake your classes and do some extraordinary volunteer work.

 

[DrMikeP]

Hey,

How are you?

Just for my own knowledge, why are online courses considered bad?

Thanks

Online courses with labs means you don't get the hands on exposure like you would in a regular class, as you aren't going to have the chemicals or multimillion dollar spectrum analyzers easily available. Doing labs through online modeling just isn't the same and in real labs you learn that even following all of the steps a reaction may not turn out right. Showing up to a classroom requires skills in scheduling, social contact, sometimes interaction with the professor, etc that one doesn't get online. Also, online classes notoriously have been known for less academic rigor and even cheating.

Some DO any more MD programs often frown more on online courses in prereq classes.

 

[stoogen]

Online courses with labs means you don't get the hands on exposure like you would in a regular class, as you aren't going to have the chemicals or multimillion dollar spectrum analyzers easily available. Doing labs through online modeling just isn't the same and in real labs you learn that even following all of the steps a reaction may not turn out right. Showing up to a classroom requires skills in scheduling, social contact, sometimes interaction with the professor, etc that one doesn't get online. Also, online classes notoriously have been known for less academic rigor and even cheating.

Some DO any more MD programs often frown more on online courses in prereq classes.

Out of curiosity, are hybrid classes where coursework is independent study but the exams proctored and labwork in person, or are they seen the same as fully online coursework?

 

[DrMikeP]

Out of curiosity, are hybrid classes where coursework is independent study but the exams proctored and labwork in person, or are they seen the same as fully online coursework?

There are classes at universities that are independent study, but such often isn't the same as in class work and at schools I know the independent study work is 10X harder than the class. Don't know of IS Labs in core sciences or how that would go over on med apps. Doing things in unusual ways can blow up in your face as some med schools may be ok with it while others at the last minute not so tread with caution.

 

[JTallas77]

Online courses with labs means you don't get the hands on exposure like you would in a regular class, as you aren't going to have the chemicals or multimillion dollar spectrum analyzers easily available. Doing labs through online modeling just isn't the same and in real labs you learn that even following all of the steps a reaction may not turn out right. Showing up to a classroom requires skills in scheduling, social contact, sometimes interaction with the professor, etc that one doesn't get online. Also, online classes notoriously have been known for less academic rigor and even cheating.

Some DO any more MD programs often frown more on online courses in prereq classes.

Thanks for the reply

 

[JTallas77]

@JTallas77

Not all online course work is bad (I shouldn't have used the word any). Medical schools usually prefer the required prerequisite courses to be done/completed in a traditional classroom setting at a four institution as opposed to an online one. In regards to the OP's predicament, online courses in the sciences would not help him and it would not convince adcoms that he/she can handle medical school curriculum. He/she needs to retake/do science coursework in a traditional classroom setting so that he/she can off set his/her past mistakes and build rapport with lecturers to solidify getting letters of recommendations.

Appreciate you taking the time to reply.

 

[doctor_x]

It depends on which school you want to apply to. Some of them are known for looking at the entire picture rather than numbers.

 

[doctor_x]

It depends on which school you want to apply to. Some of them are known for looking at the entire picture rather than numbers.

Retake your classes and do some extraordinary volunteer work.

Retake your classes and do some extraordinary volunteer work.

Agree⬆️