All this talk about jobs has me worried...

[bannanababy146]

Hi! I'm a senior in college (taking a year off then applying to opt school). I decided I wanted to go to optometry school about 2 years ago and I'm very excited about the profession. However...all the threads on here and other websites has me worried about the future. Is it really that bad finding a job with decent pay? It seems like California is the worst for jobs but I wasn't really looking to live/go to school out there anyway. Is there a particular area that is best to go to school in so you can network in that area and find a job easily? I don't plan on going to one of the newly opened schools. I'm hoping for sco, indiana, or maybe somewhere on the east coast.

I keep hearing drastic and different stories about the profession. One person might say if they could go back in time they would never to go optometry school bc they are barely making enough to pay their loans. Other say it's the opposite. Advice?

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[blaba]

I'm in your boots. I have also taken a year off, and applied to NECO and PCO. I am still considering whether its worth it financially. You forgot to add not only the oversupply problem, but the huge loan (~ 200k, ~1500-1600 a month) you gotta pay off.

 

[mjl]

I'm pre-optometry too so im no expert on the situation, but I have read a lot of what people have to say on these boards. Based on what I have read (and trying to eliminate as much info from trolls as possible) it seems that:

-Yes there is a current oversupply, especially concentrated around larger cities
-There are still great opportunities out there with great pay, you might just have to be ok with living somewhere that is pretty far removed from a large populated area
-Commercial does seem to be taking over to some extent, and it seems like this is the path of least resistance for many new graduates-these jobs pay ok, but not great. Also there doesnt seem to be a whole lot of upward mobility, and your scope of practice is limited if you work in one of these places.

Somebody correct me if im wrong with any of those statements. What I would like to know is that if going into commerical right after you graduate for a few years just to start getting some money and paying off loans and then moving on to bigger and better things (pp, hospital setting, whatever) is difficult to do. Im talking a long the lines of losing skills, knowledge, that kinda thing.

 

[bannanababy146]

yeah thats the basic feeling I get from everything. And like you mentioned there are only a few people in particular on this website that are "trolling" and I guess I'm not sure how much weight to put on the things they say. I mean its true that people who are unhappy are going to seek out places like this to complain. I just want to make sure that optometrist that are unhappy with their job are the minority and not majority.

 

[blaba]

Can you put a figure on what a "great pay" would be? On average, optometrists of our generation are getting paid less than the optometrists of old. A great pay would have to account for the huge debt after OD school plus living expenses.

 

[KHE]

Somebody correct me if im wrong with any of those statements. What I would like to know is that if going into commerical right after you graduate for a few years just to start getting some money and paying off loans and then moving on to bigger and better things (pp, hospital setting, whatever) is difficult to do. Im talking a long the lines of losing skills, knowledge, that kinda thing.

You have to be VERY careful with that.

That's a common plan that new graduates have.

"I'll work commercial for a few years, pay down debt, save up some money and then buy or open a practice of my own."

It almost never works out that way.

Because what happens is that people start working, they start making money, they get married, they buy a house. A car. Maybe have a kid or plan on having kids. Then the fear of "well.....we have a baby on the way....maybe I'll do it in a year or two."

Before you know it, you're 45 years old and no closer to realizing your dream than you were when you were 25.

IF you choose to do the commercial thing "for a few years" you need a very good plan for saving money and you must make a lot of effort to stick to it.

 

[KHE]

Can you put a figure on what a "great pay" would be? On average, optometrists of our generation are getting paid less than the optometrists of old. A great pay would have to account for the huge debt after OD school plus living expenses.

The answer to that of course is.....IT DEPENDS.

Depends on where you live. Depends on how much debt you have. Depends on what you want for yourself.

 

[Jason K]

What I would like to know is that if going into commerical right after you graduate for a few years just to start getting some money and paying off loans and then moving on to bigger and better things (pp, hospital setting, whatever) is difficult to do. Im talking a long the lines of losing skills, knowledge, that kinda thing.

This is what nearly everyone who has graduated in recent years has been planning on doing. No one plans on going into commercial optometry as a career choice; they just end up there when they find out there's nowhere to jump after doing commercial for a while. Either the pay is too low, the locations are not compatible, or the positions simply aren't there to begin with.

It's been said by several posters on here to "have a plan." That's fine, but plans seem to have been getting less and less effective for graduates over the past decade or so. The profession itself, for many reasons, has lost its ability to support its new practitioners and those coming out of school in the next few years and beyond will be hit the hardest.

The key thing to understand is that while older, established ODs might be doing quite well right now, newer ODs cannot base their future on what they see those docs doing. It's apples and oranges. What lies ahead for new grads is a sea of commercial optometry and all of the negativity that comes along with a profession being overtaken by corporate entities and motives.

You guys can label the negative posters on this site as "trolls," but in a few years, the attitudes toward the negativity may change when you come to see that all the things we have been screaming about are, in fact, true.

 

[sya]

I think in any careers, there is going to be negatives and positives. It really comes down to... do you love what you are doing and are you passionate about it? Money comes and goes. There is no perfect career and the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

 

[blaba]

KHE, debt figures are pretty stable and pretty high these days. Most graduates go out with $200,000. With current interest rates on a maturity of about 20 years, that comes to around $19,000 a year. Let's say the average salary of commercial optometrists is $75,000 a year. That's only $56,000 a year excluding living expenses. So $56,000 is about what the average starting optometrist has to work with. Yes, I based this assumption on the fact that the average graduate will go out commercial, and stay commercial - because that's the reality.

I think in any careers, there is going to be negatives and positives. It really comes down to... do you love what you are doing and are you passionate about it? Money comes and goes. There is no perfect career and the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

But some careers might have more negatives than positives, and vice versa. Financial considerations are important, and that's what this topic is about, not passions. It's about jobs.

 

[KHE]

So you are advising young graduates to go PP straight away, am I right? How could that possibly be better than going commercial? Please explain this.

KHE, debt figures are pretty stable and pretty high these days. Most graduates go out with $200,000. With current interest rates on a maturity of about 20 years, that comes to around $19,000 a year. Let's say the average salary of commercial optometrists is $75,000 a year. That's only $56,000 a year excluding living expenses. So $56,000 is about what the average starting optometrist has to work with.



But some careers might have more negatives than positives, and vice versa. Financial considerations are important, and that's what this topic is about, not passions. It's about jobs.

Sounds like you need a plan.

 

[Jason K]

I think in any careers, there is going to be negatives and positives. It really comes down to... do you love what you are doing and are you passionate about it? Money comes and goes. There is no perfect career and the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

This is the attitude that get's a lot of people into trouble. "Do what you love" is a great philosophy that I would never argue with, especially now. But doing so without a complete understanding of the financials involved in the process, is what causes people serious regret, myself included. If you come out of optometry school having just spent over 200K on the degree plus possibly more from undergrad, only to find out that you will not be "doing what you love," but rather, "making money for a commercial giant," then you will likely be very disappointed with your choice.

Again, it's easy to look at what older, established ODs have and say "I'd love to do that. I'd really enjoy having a setup like that." You need to understand that new grads are entering a very different optometry world today. They have astronomically higher debt and they're faced with lower earning potential after inflation is accounted for. The OD success stories of the 70s, 80s, and 90s are not going to repeat themselves for grads coming out these days, although most of them are thinking it somehow will work out if they just try hard enough and plan ahead.

There's going to be a lot of young ODs coming out of school in the near future who will add to the thousands who already regret their decision to buy an over-priced OD.

 

[blaba]

I have a working "plan". I graduated with a degree in Finance, and that's what I might fall back on. Sorry KHE, I don't think your "plan" argument is clear to me (which you have repeated on multiple threads), or anyone on this forum at all. Please come up with a hypothetical "plan" for a graduate.

I have shadowed 4 optometrists in PP. Primary care, low vision, vision therapy, and so called "nutritional" optometrist in my area (this man is in his 80s). All of them are at least 45 years old. The ONLY young optometrist I have seen is the PCO graduate that works at my local WalMart.

 

[KHE]

I have a working "plan". I graduated with a degree in Finance, and that's what I might fall back on. Sorry KHE, I don't think your "plan" argument is clear to me (which you have repeated on multiple threads), or anyone on this forum at all. Please come up with a hypothetical "plan" for a graduate.

I have shadowed 4 optometrists in PP. Primary care, low vision, vision therapy, and so called "nutritional" optometrist in my area (this man is in his 80s). All of them are at least 45 years old. The ONLY young optometrist I have seen is the PCO graduate that works at my local WalMart.

Why am I the one having to come up with the plan for you? I had a plan.

If you're asking what I would advise a young graduate, it would be this....

1) Look to practice in an area where you can access medical insurance plans. This is true above all else.

2) While you're in school, read as many of the "business" trade publications. Not so that you can find the recipe for success but so that you can start reading about other peoples successes and failures and the issues facing the profession. Then you will at least be able to start thinking about things like "yes....I really like what that person did. I'd like to do something similar in my practice one day" or you can think "well....that worked for that person but I don't think I'd like to do things that particular way."

3) While in school, spend time asking faculty members who have practices outside of school what they would suggest. What advice would they give you? What mistakes did they make? What would they do differently?

4) Try to network with potential sellers while still in school. This can be hard if you're not sure where you are going to end up but if you think you know, start networking as early as possible.

 

[blaba]

KHE, sounds like your whole answer can be summed up in just one word, like a "plan"... networking... which is a given in any profession.

So that's the big plan, KHE? Networking?

That is not a very concrete answer, because "networking" is pretty much taken for granted for anything job-related (which ironically sounds like what optometry has become these days). A plan is not a series of advice, KHE. A plan is how the hell do you get from A to B to C, financially in the optometric marketplace today?

 

[Jason K]

KHE, sounds like your whole answer can be summed up in just one word, like a "plan"... networking... which is a given in any profession.

This is precisely what I've been getting at. Having a "plan" is something that's a given for anyone spending money on education these days. But in some situations, there is no feasible "plan" that can get a person from A to B to C. I believe optometry has become one of those situations. I can plan on opening a store which will sell VHS video tapes and 80s style cassette tapes, but the likelihood of that working out is nil. There's more to a plan than just having one, the right foundation has to be underneath it to support it. Unfortunately, the foundation that used to hold up optometry has dropped out for those entering the profession now days.

 

[bannanababy146]

If someone could please answer the question about if there are certain schools that will give you a better future in the career I would really appreciate it. No I'm not exactly asking anyone to rank the schools...simply is there an area of the country where it would be better to go to school because you will have a better chance of finding a good job in that area. Thanks!

 

[KHE]

KHE, sounds like your whole answer can be summed up in just one word, like a "plan"... networking... which is a given in any profession.

So that's the big plan, KHE? Networking?

That is not a very concrete answer, because "networking" is pretty much taken for granted for anything job-related (which ironically sounds like what optometry has become these days). A plan is not a series of advice, KHE. A plan is how the hell do you get from A to B to C, financially in the optometric marketplace today?

There is no magic secret "plan" that will work in all situations all the time.
Your situation, likes, dislikes and desires may be radically different than mine. That's why you need your OWN plan. If you have a specific question in mind about something in particular, I'll try to answer it but I can't create your plan for you. I can't advise you on how to get from A to B to C because I don't know what "C" means to YOU.

Yes, Jason K is right. (for once.) Simply having a plan will not work in all situations all the time. But NOT having a plan is a guarantee for failure virtually EVERY time and that's the problem that most optometry students have. They don't HAVE a plan. They think that they will just graduate and deal with it then. You can't do that.

 

[KHE]

If someone could please answer the question about if there are certain schools that will give you a better future in the career I would really appreciate it. No I'm not exactly asking anyone to rank the schools...simply is there an area of the country where it would be better to go to school because you will have a better chance of finding a good job in that area. Thanks!

In general, the newer schools will be looked down on somewhat. The other established schools, most people will not care one way or the other.

 

[mjl]

If someone could please answer the question about if there are certain schools that will give you a better future in the career I would really appreciate it. No I'm not exactly asking anyone to rank the schools...simply is there an area of the country where it would be better to go to school because you will have a better chance of finding a good job in that area. Thanks!

I dont know if basing what school you pick on the employment opportunities in the immediate area around the school is a great idea. For example, I know berkeley is a great school but good luck finding a reasonable job around there. Remember that chances are you are gunna be seeing a lot of different places once you start doing your externships. To me, this seems like a great time to explore new places and to see where you could see yourself living someday.

 

[bannanababy146]

I'm definitely not planning on going to a newer school. I've mainly been looking into schools in the midwest area (ICO, SCO, Indiana etc). I'm probably going to apply to SUNY (might not get in but I figure I should at least try!) and one or two other east coast schools. As for my plan, I might pick a school to attend based off of scholarship/cost. Most people say it doesn't matter that much where you go or your grades, just that you have an OD. So i figure that having less loans to pay off will be a substantial benefit vs. attending an expensive school. After school I don't mind working commercial although I guess private would be ideal for anyone. I can't say exactly where I'll be five or ten years from now...but I know I want to start off full time then MAYBE part time depending on my family situation at that point. It's hard to make a good plan when you don't know exactly what the future holds.

 

[bannanababy146]

mjl- Thanks for the advice! I guess I'm not exactly sure if it would be substantially harder to find a job outside of where you go to school...because do you mainly get networking opportunities with optometrists in that area? or from alumni that are spread out in different places? I'm not sure just something I was wondering...

 

[KHE]

After school I don't mind working commercial although I guess private would be ideal for anyone. I can't say exactly where I'll be five or ten years from now...but I know I want to start off full time then MAYBE part time depending on my family situation at that point. It's hard to make a good plan when you don't know exactly what the future holds.

No one said plans can't change. This isn't Moses coming down off of Mount Sinai with the tablets. It doesn't have to be carved in stone.

Make a plan, but do it in pencil.

 

[Jason K]

Yes, Jason K is right. (for once.)

I'm right 99% of the time. The other 1% of the time I'm just plain correct. How am I so sure? Because all of my posts are C.N.A. - that is....Chuck Norris Approved.

 

[mjl]

mjl- Thanks for the advice! I guess I'm not exactly sure if it would be substantially harder to find a job outside of where you go to school...because do you mainly get networking opportunities with optometrists in that area? or from alumni that are spread out in different places? I'm not sure just something I was wondering...

No problem! To be honest im probably not the most qualified person to answer that since I'm pretty much exactly where you are at lol. I would guess that networking opportunities could arise in either fashion. I know at least that some of the optometrists I have shadowed went to school pretty far away. I think any of the more established schools probably have a pretty large network of alumni/networking opportunities/whatever else would be helpful. It seems to me the biggest factor is the individual student and how well he or she utilizes what they have at their disposal.

 

[Shnurek]

I can plan on opening a store which will sell VHS video tapes and 80s style cassette tapes, but the likelihood of that working out is nil. There's more to a plan than just having one, the right foundation has to be underneath it to support it. Unfortunately, the foundation that used to hold up optometry has dropped out for those entering the profession now days.

Jason K I think I can sum up your whole argument with two words: refractive surgery. People just do not need glasses/contacts as much as they used to. Also, the profession is becoming heavily feminized along with healthcare in general. Restrictions on residency hours mirror what is happening with optometry. People want to work less, work more part-time instead. They value lifestyle over being focused on their careers.

Therefore, what I say is go into optometry if you truly enjoy science, math and helping people. Otherwise stay away because you will not be a millionaire in this profession. If I knew that petroleum engineers made as much as optometrists and they only have Bachelor degrees, I might have seriously considered that major. I still think I'll be happier with optometry though. So that is the lesson in life. What do you value more? Lots of money/respect or lifestyle/happiness?

Finally, I plan to practice in rural/suburban areas away from the cities. Its one of the main reasons also why I chose this profession. THIS IS A RURAL PROFESSION. That is where the strength lies in optometry and all the new optometry legislation is passed on this premise that there are more optometrists in underserved rural areas than there are ophthalmologists. If you are a city person and HAVE to work in the city, you are making a big mistake choosing optometry.

A lot of my fellow students at SUNY say they want to stay in the city after they graduate. I just shake my head and feel sorry for them because it is so greatly over-saturated and the laws just suck for optometrists in big city states. They clearly did not research the profession enough. If you want a city profession then choose anything BUT healthcare. Its all oversaturated.

 

[Jason K]

I think any of the more established schools probably have a pretty large network of alumni/networking opportunities/whatever else would be helpful. It seems to me the biggest factor is the individual student and how well he or she utilizes what they have at their disposal.

You guys are still focusing on networking as if it will give you a lead in to the holy grail. Networking is great, but the opportunities have to be there in the first place to make the networking effective. If you're planning on graduating with an OD and finding a well-paying PP position, you're in for some serious disappointment when you discover that the top end of the salary range for PP associateships for new ODs is around 75 or maybe 80K if you're very lucky. Subtract your loans from that and you're looking at a salary in the 50s. Don't forget, though, you'll still be paying taxes on all but a maximum of $2500 less than your salary. You'll be making 80K, but you'll really be making 55K or so, and you'll get to pay taxes on almost the full 80K since you're only allowed to deduct a max of $2500 for student loan interest. It works out just great for uncle sam and the lenders. It's always nice to pay tax on income that's never seen.

Take a look at the income potential for employed ODs and you'll see that it has effectively decreased substantially over the last 20 years. Getting out of school and getting a coveted "good" job in optometry will start you out at about 75K and allow you to work your way up to maybe 100K with years of experience. Historically, the way to do well in optometry (financially) has been to own. That's what most ODs did 20 years ago and before. Now, everyone is flooding into employed positions and the PP side of the profession is dying away. The combination of extremely high debt, high cost of purchasing an office, and the concern over the future value of a purchased practice sinking into the optometric cesspool that is on its way, have caused most ODs coming out of school to be leery of taking the risk involved with ownership.

 

[Jason K]

Jason K I think I can sum up your whole argument with two words: refractive surgery. People just do not need glasses/contacts as much as they used to.

Shnurek, no offense, but if you think that the problems this profession faces have ANYTHING to do with refractive surgery, you need to take a step back and really think about whether or not you understand what you've gotten yourself into. Refractive surgery is to optometry as a small pimple is to a terminal cancer patient; it's a minor annoyance at worst.

The problems with optometry stem from a massive oversupply of practitioners which has opened the door to a host of other problems; not the least of which are commercial takeover and declining pay. Add in declining reimbursements from both vision and medical plans and the fact that PP optometry is losing ground with each passing moment, giving way to commercial garbage, and then you might be on your way to getting it.

 

[mjl]

You guys are still focusing on networking as if it will give you a lead in to the holy grail. Networking is great, but the opportunities have to be there in the first place to make the networking effective. If you're planning on graduating with an OD and finding a well-paying PP position, you're in for some serious disappointment when you discover that the top end of the salary range for PP associateships for new ODs is around 75 or maybe 80K if you're very lucky. Subtract your loans from that and you're looking at a salary in the 50s.

Take a look at the income potential for employed ODs and you'll see that it has effectively decreased substantially over the last 20 years. Getting out of school and getting a coveted "good" job in optometry will start you out at about 75K and allow you to work your way up to maybe 100K with years of experience. Historically, the way to do well in optometry (financially) has been to own. That's what most ODs did 20 years ago and before. Now, everyone is flooding into employed positions and the PP side of the profession is dying away. The combination of extremely high debt, high cost of purchasing an office, and the concern over the future value of a purchased practice sinking into the optometric cesspool that is on its way, have caused most ODs coming out of school to be leery of taking the risk involved with ownership.

I understand that networking isnt the only thing you need to be worrying about. The post I was responding to was asking about networking, so thats what I was talking about. And trust me, I have read enough of your posts on this board to understand that unless I hit the job jackpot coming out of school I wont be making 6 figures for some time, and thats just fine with me.

 

[Shnurek]

I understand that networking isnt the only thing you need to be worrying about. The post I was responding to was asking about networking, so thats what I was talking about. And trust me, I have read enough of your posts on this board to understand that unless I hit the job jackpot coming out of school I wont be making 6 figures for some time, and thats just fine with me.

Its more so about being smart, networking yes, not having obligations about where to live and sacrificing a bit. There are private practice positions straight out of OD school that offer 100k, 110k and even one I heard that offered 150k. But you have to realize that you will basically have to live in the rural "boonies" as pretentious city people like to call it.

 

[optom123]

Its more so about being smart, networking yes, not having obligations about where to live and sacrificing a bit. There are private practice positions straight out of OD school that offer 100k, 110k and even one I heard that offered 150k. But you have to realize that you will basically have to live in the rural "boonies" as pretentious city people like to call it.

lol, aren't you in 1st year?

 

[Jason K]

Its more so about being smart, networking yes, not having obligations about where to live and sacrificing a bit. There are private practice positions straight out of OD school that offer 100k, 110k and even one I heard that offered 150k. But you have to realize that you will basically have to live in the rural "boonies" as pretentious city people like to call it.

Show me a PP job that offers a new OD grad with no experience a 100K salary and I'll show you a town with more moose than people. Show me a PP job that offers 150K and I'll show you an applicant who has been licking hallucinogenic toads. The only job I've ever heard of that offered that kind of money was technically open to new grads, but stated a preference for at least 5 years of experience, preferably with ocular disease emphasis. It was also, most definitely NOT a private practice position; it was a job working with several Alaskan Native American tribes a stone's throw away from the North Pole. When I say "a stone's throw away from the North Pole," I'm not exaggerating. We're talking 6 months of daylight up there.

150K jobs for new grads are a pipe dream that does not exist in reality. I would wipe that thought, along with the one of getting a 100K private practice position, clearly from your mind. New ODs are as hard to come by as greasy overalls in an auto repair shop so there is absolutely no reason to expect a 6-figure income from a respectable private practice job, right out of school. If you want 100K right out of school, you'll almost certainly have to sign with America's Best or another similar corporate "***** house" like Sterling or Cohen's Optical. Just being realistic here, people. Half the problem right now is rooted in people being fed garbage about making 150K right out of school with an OD. It's just not going to happen.

If you're lucky and you find one of the few FT/PP positions open to new grads after graduation, you'll start at 75 or 80K and work your way up slowly from there, topping out in the low 100s after many years of experience. If you're ok making an effective 55K after 8-10 years of higher education, then have at it. I can guarantee you that it will get old very quickly, though, when you realize mom and dad aren't there to help with the bills each month. "Oh, the money doesn't matter, it's passion for what I do that counts...." is something you'll only hear from pre-optometry students and OD students. You will never, ever hear that from a practicing OD who has to pay the bills.

 

[Shnurek]

lol, aren't you in 1st year?

yesm

Heres one though to prove my point: http://od.pcli.com/od-marketspace/practice-opportunity-listing/alaska-tribal-healthcare/

Like I said, requires relocation (yes its Alaska) and may not be the most desirable location for most people but they are out there. 140k with full benefits. Also, imagine the pathology you would see there. I wouldn't mind doing it for a year after graduation to pay off loans I guess we'll see.

I guess note to self: Don't get married before graduation.

 

[KHE]

Show me a PP job that offers a new OD grad with no experience a 100K salary and I'll show you a town with more moose than people. Show me a PP job that offers 150K and I'll show you an applicant who has been licking hallucinogenic toads. The only job I've ever heard of that offered that kind of money was technically open to new grads, but stated a preference for at least 5 years of experience, preferably with ocular disease emphasis. It was also, most definitely NOT a private practice position; it was a job working with several Alaskan Native American tribes a stone's throw away from the North Pole. When I say "a stone's throw away from the North Pole," I'm not exaggerating. We're talking 6 months of daylight up there.

150K jobs for new grads are a pipe dream that does not exist in reality. I would wipe that thought, along with the one of getting a 100K private practice position, clearly from your mind. New ODs are as hard to come by as greasy overalls in an auto repair shop so there is absolutely no reason to expect a solid income from a respectable private practice job. If you want 100K right out of school, you'll almost certainly have to sign with America's Best or another similar corporate "***** house" like Sterling or Cohen's Optical. Just being realistic here, people. Half the problem right now is rooted in people being fed garbage about making 150K right out of school with an OD. It's just not going to happen.

In my office, we pay $400 per day. If that's a 5 day work week and a 50 week work year, do the math.

 

[Jason K]

In my office, we pay $400 per day. If that's a 5 day work week and a 50 week work year, do the math.

Emily is saying that new grads can expect salaries of $100k plus.

In my practice, when we hire associates we do not start people off at $100k+ and I'm talking about experienced doctors.

There is NO WAY IN HELL we would ever even consider starting a new grad off at that level. We start at around $80,000 depending on how much we want the person and depending how good of a negotiator they are.

You can't have it both ways, senior. You already came out before in a previous thread and claimed that there was "No way in hell" that you'd ever start anyone right out of school more than about 80K. You also stated in the same post that you'd never pay, even an experienced doc, a 100K salary starting out.

One of these posts was misleading. So, which is it?

 

[Shnurek]

http://www.pointandpost.com/jobs/jobpage.asp?jobid=ar-ma-1363&dn=www.etsvision.com

100k guaranteed base with benefits private practice in Arkansas. New grads welcome.

These jobs probably have many people applying to them but it is possible guys! I'll agree with you that most people that come out of school and want to definitely do private practice associate positions they will probably get around 80k. Southern California would probably be more like 70k from what I hear. NYC and its surrounding suburbs are so OVERWHELMED with applicants its a joke. Like 30 people applying to one position in Westchester. They just take you on how attractive you are/your personality. Almost nobody cares what your GPA was in optom school. Would you agree guys?

 

[Jason K]

http://www.pointandpost.com/jobs/jobpage.asp?jobid=ar-ma-1363&dn=www.etsvision.com

100k guaranteed base with benefits private practice in Arkansas. New grads welcome.

I guess when I said "more moose than people," I should have said "More varmi'ts than people." It's Arkansas - I think that says it all. (No offense to all the Arkansasonians on this forum.) All kidding aside, it looks like it could be a good opportunity if you're willing to relocate to .......... Arkansas.

 

[Shnurek]

I guess when I said "more moose than people," I should have said "More varmi'ts than people." It's Arkansas - I think that says it all. (No offense to all the Arkansasonians on this forum.)

Jason K, I think I figured you out man. You are just a pretentious city dweller that didn't research career choices before choosing optometry. Now you are miserable. I agree there are problems with optometry that are separate factors from the current recession and people should know about them. I hope you make it out and see the light.

PS - the position is located in Arkansas' biggest city and there is a student in my SUNY class that is from Arkansas and hes one of the coolest dudes in our class.

 

[Jason K]

Jason K, I think I figured you out man. You are just a pretentious city dweller that didn't research career choices before choosing optometry. Now you are miserable. I agree there are problems with optometry that are separate factors from the current recession and people should know about them. I hope you make it out and see the light.

PS - the position is located in Arkansas' biggest city and there is a student in my SUNY class that is from Arkansas and hes one of the coolest dudes in our class.

I thought you figured me out before when you said my problem was refractive surgery I'm anything but a pretentious city dweller. I'm not in a major city by choice, that's for sure. I wouldn't want to be living with wild animals in my living room, though - somewhere in between.

The smartest guy I ever went to school with was from the deep south so I'm only half-kidding with my AK jab. As an aside, calling Little Rock "Arkansas' biggest city" doesn't say much. Like I said, if someone is willing to move to AK, it sounds like it could be a good opportunity. Too bad there aren't more of them to go around.

 

[Shnurek]

I'm not in a major city by choice, that's for sure. I wouldn't want to be living with wild animals in my living room, though - somewhere in between.

Yea, but we live with wild animals roaming the streets, lulz.

 

[KHE]

You can't have it both ways, senior. You already came out before in a previous thread and claimed that there was "No way in hell" that you'd ever start anyone right out of school more than about 80K. You also stated in the same post that you'd never pay, even an experienced doc, a 100K salary starting out.

One of these posts was misleading. So, which is it?

Neither. We don't start them off at that. If they can produce enough income to generate that salary, we'll gladly pay them that. We don't expect our associated to generate $500000 and then pay them $75000.

*edit*

My apologies....I misread your posting. I did not realize that you were talking about new graduates. I thought you were implying that no private practice associate pays $100,000.

 

[Wilkesu12]

Jason,
How do you feel about applying for a military scholarship to alleviate much of that debt? Do you think that would put someone in a better position after they serve their 3 years?

 

[Eyes Only]

yesm

Heres one though to prove my point: http://od.pcli.com/od-marketspace/practice-opportunity-listing/alaska-tribal-healthcare/

Like I said, requires relocation (yes its Alaska) and may not be the most desirable location for most people but they are out there. 140k with full benefits. Also, imagine the pathology you would see there. I wouldn't mind doing it for a year after graduation to pay off loans I guess we'll see.

I guess note to self: Don't get married before graduation.

Look at this job posting again...It says salary up to $140k DOE.

DOE means Depending On Experience. $140k is the MAXIMUM for EXPERIENCED ODs, not a beginning optometrist.

If you've spent much time in Alaska (I have) then you know the cost of living is much higher than much of the rest of the country, thus the higher salaries.

 

[Jason K]

Neither. We don't start them off at that. If they can produce enough income to generate that salary, we'll gladly pay them that. We don't expect our associated to generate $500000 and then pay them $75000.

*edit*

My apologies....I misread your posting. I did not realize that you were talking about new graduates. I thought you were implying that no private practice associate pays $100,000.

Ok, so it sounds like you guys pay a good wage for per diem work to experienced docs. I know plenty of ODs out between 5 and 10 years who have worked in private practices (both OD and MD) and few of them have bases that approach or exceed 100K. If you guys pay 400 per day to a doc who can produce, you're the exception to the rule, but that's per diem wages, not FT numbers. There's no shortage of per diem work out there for ODs, that's one of the problems. Aside from that, the "going rate" right now for FT PP associateships from speaking with many new grads, is about 75 to 80K base and if they're lucky, they get a "bonus" structure which offers 10-15% of gross over 650-700K. I don't think there is a new grad in history who has come able to generate those kinds of numbers out of the gate, at least not in a legitimate setting. They don't know that, though and frankly, I doubt they care given the tiny number of PP jobs out there for new grads these days.

One of the problems I've been screaming about on this site is new grad pay. It's too low to justify the cost of the degree. It's not just optometry that faces this problem, but I'm not interested in exposing the problems of new MBAs or new JDs. I'm an OD so that's where I'm focusing my attention. The first 5-10 years of low pay as an OD will spell disaster for all of these people wallowing away on IBR plans. Their balances are growing out of control and they don't even see it.

The degree keeps getting more and more costly while the prospects for new grads keep dropping. And with all the changes that are going on (none of them good for optometry) the problem is only going to worsen in the future. The vast majority of new ODs coming out these days and in the future are not going to like what they've gotten themselves into. It's a shame, but that's the truth and I think every OD on here knows it.

 

[Jason K]

Jason,
How do you feel about applying for a military scholarship to alleviate much of that debt? Do you think that would put someone in a better position after they serve their 3 years?

I don't know of any military scholarships that will pay for 4 years with a 3 year commitment, it's 6 years unless I'm mistaken. Even if it's a partial payment, the deal is pretty good overall if you're willing to accept the downsides:

1) You can be sent off to a distant corner of the Earth for your time commitment.
2) The quality of the sites you may work at can vary - some with very good expereince, some not so much.
3) You need to be someone with a personality that can mesh in a military setting. From friends who've done it, they tell me it's very watered down, but it's still military. I have two friends who did the AirForce and they loved it. I have another who did Navy and was neutral, but I think he'd do it again if he had the choice based on what he's told me.

The upside is you finish your commitment (assuming you do the full 4 years) with no debt after 6 years of service. Most of the rest of us idiots will be paying ours down until we're in our 50s and maybe even 60s. It's not for everyone, but for some people, it might be the best choice they ever made.

 

[blaba]

KHE -

Like I said before, networking and having a plan is a given in any profession. Look at all those Occupy Wall Street protesters, who are mostly young and unemployed, and tell me - how's their "plan" working for them? They realize that the high unemployment rate is systemic, so no "plan" is gonna work by itself, is it? It is absurd to think that all those people can't find a job because it's their own fault (i.e. according to you, that they didn't formulate "a plan", or a good enough "plan")

Can we not say the same about our young optometrists, who are pretty much making the same doh as an undergrad and even less in some other cases? The only good thing I can conclude from all that I've read, is that they can actually find jobs in today's market.


One last thing - when I asked you to show us an example of a plan, I never said a plan involving me. And yes, of course plans will vary from person to person. But it is ridiculous to think that plans can vary SO MUCH. Surely, there can be a plan for the average hypothetical graduate today. Can you imagine such a person? Keep in mind that the average hypothetical graduate today faces an average 75k salary, with 200k debt right out of school.

 

[optom123]

JasonK, is ******ed.

Every income survey from every source, be it MSN money, the AOA, review of optometry or the government states that the average OD income is ~100k. I've looked into it and have talked to a couple local ODs who agree with the survey.

How can an anon poster like jasonk argue against these claims made by real organizations who conduct real research?

I am willing to bet that JasonK probably makes good money, but hates to see the dentist next door make 3x more than him. Its ok Jason, for most of us, its not about the money. You need to realize, most preoptometry students/optometry students aren't as silly as you appear to be.

 

[KHE]

KHE -

Like I said before, networking and having a plan is a given in any profession. Look at all those Occupy Wall Street protesters, who are mostly young and unemployed, and tell me - how's their "plan" working for them? They realize that the high unemployment rate is systemic, so no "plan" is gonna work by itself, is it? It is absurd to think that all those people can't find a job because it's their own fault (i.e. according to you, that they didn't formulate "a plan", or a good enough "plan")

I have no idea what their plans were or if they even had any. But I would bet that for many of them the plan was "study hard, stay in school, graduate and someone will give me a good job." Obviously, it doesn't quite work that way. They have to go after it. I don't know how they have done that. So what are they going to do about it?

One last thing - when I asked you to show us an example of a plan, I never said a plan involving me. And yes, of course plans will vary from person to person. But it is ridiculous to think that plans can vary SO MUCH. Surely, there can be a plan for the average hypothetical graduate today. Can you imagine such a person? Keep in mind that the average hypothetical graduate today faces an average 75k salary, with 200k debt right out of school.

I don't understand what you're asking for. I gave you that hypothetical plan earlier in this thread. The average starting salary for a new graduate is not $75000. It's not $100,000 either but most places the average starting wage is $325 or $350 per day.

What I would tell someone starting out is to take the absolutely maximum repayment term you can possibly get. Whether it's 20 years or 30 years, take the maximum. Don't try to pay it off in 10 years.

The reason for this is that in the early lean years of life, cash flow is king. I'm not suggesting that you necissarily take 20 or 30 years to pay the loan off, but start off with the minimum so that you have the flexibility that you need.

$200,000 over 30 years is a monthly payment of $1300. That should be more than manageble on a salary of $82000 per year.

Then just get out there and start working. Look towards finding a practice to purchase because every income survey out there shows that ownership is going to be the only way make any real money. Yes, ownership has it's own inherent hassles and risks but at the end of the day, it's the best option.

 

[KHE]

Ok, so it sounds like you guys pay a good wage for per diem work to experienced docs. I know plenty of ODs out between 5 and 10 years who have worked in private practices (both OD and MD) and few of them have bases that approach or exceed 100K. If you guys pay 400 per day to a doc who can produce, you're the exception to the rule, but that's per diem wages, not FT numbers.

We have had full time associates that we have paid that too. (more if you count the fact we pay their malpractice, license and give them CE money as well.)

We will pay that to anyone, even a young graduate if they can produce. We don't start people out at that but our philosophy has always been that if someone can produce, we want them here so we'll pay them.

 

[Wilkesu12]

I think there are a few that will pay for three years if you commit for three years. They also provide you with some Money to live with while you are in school. So say you have to serve for three years, wherever that may be, you would already be in a better position finically without much debt but do you think it would be any easier to find a non cooperate career once you leave the military since the scope of practice in the military is fairly large?