Allopath versus Osteopath: Why?

[DanHerkimer]

In my many years as a Dentist, I have dealt with (and been the patient of) a number of Osteopathic Physicians. All of them completed allopathic residencies, all were excellent, and none of them EVER recommended any type of "spinal manipulation." Since it appears that there is no evidence-based justification for it, why continue? Let the walls between MDs and DOs come crashing down, and recognize that our U.S. osteopathic medical schools are an important source of primary care physicians and have ALL of the medical schools award the Doctor of Medicine degree...

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[MedMan25]

In my many years as a Dentist, I have dealt with (and been the patient of) a number of Osteopathic Physicians. All of them completed allopathic residencies, all were excellent, and none of them EVER recommended any type of "spinal manipulation." Since it appears that there is no evidence-based justification for it, why continue? Let the walls between MDs and DOs come crashing down, and recognize that our U.S. osteopathic medical schools are an important source of primary care physicians and have ALL of the medical schools award the Doctor of Medicine degree...

There are many DOs who do practice OMM and who do go through osteopathic residencies (roughly 5,500 in 2006) rather than allopathic.

 

[BCLumas]

In my many years as a Dentist, I have dealt with (and been the patient of) a number of Osteopathic Physicians. All of them completed allopathic residencies, all were excellent, and none of them EVER recommended any type of "spinal manipulation." Since it appears that there is no evidence-based justification for it, why continue? Let the walls between MDs and DOs come crashing down, and recognize that our U.S. osteopathic medical schools are an important source of primary care physicians and have ALL of the medical schools award the Doctor of Medicine degree...

Hrm.. really? I would check your percentages to see how many DO students actually head into Primary Care.

 

[Shinken]

In my many years as a Dentist, I have dealt with (and been the patient of) a number of Osteopathic Physicians. All of them completed allopathic residencies, all were excellent, and none of them EVER recommended any type of "spinal manipulation." Since it appears that there is no evidence-based justification for it, why continue? Let the walls between MDs and DOs come crashing down, and recognize that our U.S. osteopathic medical schools are an important source of primary care physicians and have ALL of the medical schools award the Doctor of Medicine degree...

1) There is evidence-based justification for "spinal manipulation" (why the quotes?)

2) As a dentist you have probably a very limited exposure to and knowledge of what osteopathic medicine is and the history behind it. It's not as easy as "letting the walls come crashing down" and having all med schools award MDs.

3) Osteopathic medical schools have been recognized for many years as an important source of primary care physicians. Some schools have been ranked as top primary care schools by USNews, above allopathic schools.

4) What walls are we talking about? There are no walls between MDs and DOs. They both work together in the same clinics and hospitals, and -as you mentioned- train in the same programs together.

 

[Shinken]

Hrm.. really? I would check your percentages to see how many DO students actually head into Primary Care.

Although there are less and less DO grads choosing primary care, the percentage of DO grads vs MD grads choosing primary care is much greater (21% vs 9%).

Yes, the numbers choosing primary care are diminishing, but it's still true that more DO grads choose primary care compared to MD grads.

http://www.graham-center.org/x585.xml

 

[BCLumas]

Although there are less and less DO grads choosing primary care, the percentage of DO grads vs MD grads choosing primary care is much greater (21% vs 9%). Also, although osteopathic physicians are a minority in the US, it comprises a very large percentage of the total number of primary care physicians.

Yes, the numbers choosing primary care are diminishing, but it's still true that more DO grads choose primary care compared to MD grads.

http://www.graham-center.org/x585.xml

That's what I was hinting at, Shinken. His quote (to me) made it seem like DO schools were only churning out PCPs and nothing else. I knew someone would come along with the data. Thanks!

 

[Shinken]

His quote (to me) made it seem like DO schools were only churning out PCPs and nothing else.

Yes, at one time that was true.

I think the fact that more and more DO grads can specialize shows that osteopathic medicine is becoming more accepted. Unfortunately that acceptance and success for the profession also means less primary care in the long run.

By the way, I misspoke when I said "although osteopathic physicians are a minority in the US, it comprises a very large percentage of the total number of primary care physicians." Percentage-wise there's a large number of DO PCPs compared to non-DO PCPs, but in the overall physician picture, there are far more MD PCPs than DO PCPs, of course. I will remove that from my original post.

 

[SomeDoc]

Much of the posts already made within this thread are spot on.

 

[BCLumas]

Yes, at one time that was true.

I think the fact that more and more DO grads can specialize shows that osteopathic medicine is becoming more accepted. Unfortunately that acceptance and success for the profession also means less primary care in the long run.

By the way, I misspoke when I said "although osteopathic physicians are a minority in the US, it comprises a very large percentage of the total number of primary care physicians." Percentage-wise there's a large number of DO PCPs compared to non-DO PCPs, but in the overall physician picture, there are far more MD PCPs than DO PCPs, of course. I will remove that from my original post.

You rock!

 

[Old_Mil]

Since it appears that there is no evidence-based justification for it, why continue?

Most of us don't.

Let the walls between MDs and DOs come crashing down, and recognize that our U.S. osteopathic medical schools are an important source of primary care physicians and have ALL of the medical schools award the Doctor of Medicine degree...

Good idea.

 

[JaggerPlate]

In my many years as a Dentist, I have dealt with (and been the patient of) a number of Osteopathic Physicians. All of them completed allopathic residencies, all were excellent, and none of them EVER recommended any type of "spinal manipulation." Since it appears that there is no evidence-based justification for it, why continue? Let the walls between MDs and DOs come crashing down, and recognize that our U.S. osteopathic medical schools are an important source of primary care physicians and have ALL of the medical schools award the Doctor of Medicine degree...

Just a curious question .... how would you feel if the world grew tired of the divide between a DDS and a DMD and suddenly decided to slash the DMD degree in place of the DDS?? Just playing devils advocate ... I know that 99.9% of the population has no idea two dental degrees exist.

 

[armorshell]

Just a curious question .... how would you feel if the world grew tired of the divide between a DDS and a DMD and suddenly decided to slash the DMD degree in place of the DDS?? Just playing devils advocate ... I know that 99.9% of the population has no idea two dental degrees exist.

That would be a great thing, since they're the exact same degree in everything but name. There's literally no difference in training between a DMD and DDS.

Also, I wouldn't expect Herkimer to respond to any of your posts. He has a predilection for dropping some caustic, controversial post and then never returning.

 

[DanHerkimer]

That would be a great thing, since they're the exact same degree in everything but name. There's literally no difference in training between a DMD and DDS.

Also, I wouldn't expect Herkimer to respond to any of your posts. He has a predilection for dropping some caustic, controversial post and then never returning.

Well, "Armorshell", for a Moderator you make comments that are anything but moderate. I reviewed some of YOUR posts and found that you have made your fair share of controversial remarks.

For the record, a number of forum members have chosen to email me privately and I have always responded. They are future colleagues and I afford them all professional courtesies.

Your point about DDS and DMD programs being the same is quite true. Which makes my original point -- Osteopathic schools have become indistinguishable from Allopathic schools with the exception of spinal manipulation. This is like medical school with chiropractic thrown in. Dispense with the voodoo and merge!

As one of the Nation's first newly minted DMDs, I can tell you that it did me no favors. It caused much confusion among patients when I went into practice. Since there was no difference in training & philosophy, why have different degrees?

My advice to you, Armorshell, is that you are going to become a Doctor soon. Don't you think it is time to grow up?

 

[MedMan25]

Dispense with the voodoo and merge!

Wow.

 

[DiverDoc]

Wow.

Yup, that remark threw my respect for this guy out the window

 

[osli]

Your point about DDS and DMD programs being the same is quite true. Which makes my original point -- Osteopathic schools have become indistinguishable from Allopathic schools with the exception of spinal manipulation.

I've said it elsewhere, but there do appear to be more differences between the to than manipulation. Some like to claim there are no such differences, others like to claim that the entire philosophy in every way is different. The truth is in the middle. MD schools, IMO, teach the same "holistic" approach to medicine as osteopathic schools, for the most part, so I reject that often cited difference. However, I have come to realize that the approach to education seems slightly different, with allopathic schools often placing a heavier emphasis on basic sciences in the pre-clinical years and osteopathic schools often placing a heavier (relative) emphasis on early clinical education in the pre-clinical years. Both teach more or less the same basic sciences, but it is that "more or less" that separates them. I took both board exams, and this was as apparent in what they felt was necessary to test as in what they felt was necessary to teach. I don't know if one approach is superior to the other, and in the end both paths cover the same material, but it is a difference that does exist and would have to be considered in any potential merger of the programs. I recognize that I'm making a general sweeping characterization based on the majorities... I know there are plenty of MD schools that emphasize clinical experience and training much more so than others, and I'm sure there are a couple of DO schools that are extremely book-limited in those first two years as well.

This is like medical school with chiropractic thrown in. Dispense with the voodoo and merge!

OK, well if you wanted a serious discussion it looks like you are making sure you won't get it.

 

[schrute]

MD schools, IMO, teach the same "holistic" approach to medicine as osteopathic schools, for the most part, so I reject that often cited difference.

This is a huge point that people often overlook: who says that DOs get taught more 'holistic' practices?
Who says that DOs are more patient oriented?
Who says that DOs 'treat the patient not the disease'?
Are there some studies out there to justify this, or just the usual ad nauseum heresay?

Our profession purports these notions and students gravitate toward them because it justifies their decisions, but it's erroneous to believe that MDs somehow are less apt to care for patients or that DOs somehow have a corner on the soft & fuzzy side of medicine.

Aside from OMM and the rhetoric that historically surrounds DOs, there's not one bit of difference between the two.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Moved to dental err something???? This makes no sense.

 

[sexyman]

lol at anyone that thinks this guy is a dentist and not a troll

 

[osli]

Are there some studies out there to justify this, or just the usual ad nauseum heresay?

I'd go with the "usual ad nauseum heresay" explanation, thus why I reject the notion.

I do think that the approach to eduction might be a little different, i.e. more emphasis on clinical management earlier rather than later. I know our school certainly seems to expose us to this earlier than the norm, but I can only make assumptions about other DO schools - mostly by the questions that I faced on COMLEX, which suggests to me that if the NBOME thinks this early clinical management knowledge is worth testing more DO schools must be teaching it early. Then again, I've seen several students complain that the level of clinical knowledge required by COMLEX was "beyond what a 2nd year student knows" so perhaps not.

Maybe this subtle difference in where and when this part of the education occurs explains some of the rhetoric about "osteopathic education taking a more holistic approach." That might be true from one perspective if you compare first year curricula at a few schools, but I think that once all four years are completed those differences melt away. Some students just learn more of that "holistic" approach out in the clinics instead of in the classroom... or OMT lab.

 

[DOMb]

DO's do much more then just "spinal manipulation." There are many DO's out there that help countless pts with the training we recieve in OMM, not just "spinal manipulation." I find this generalization demeaning and I think you should get your facts straight before lumping our profession with chiropractors.

 

[Shinken]

Osteopathic schools have become indistinguishable from Allopathic schools with the exception of spinal manipulation. This is like medical school with chiropractic thrown in.

This statement is very inaccurate. I'll just leave it at that.

Dispense with the voodoo and merge!

If you don't understand OMM don't criticize it and insult an entire profession of competent physicians.

I'm not quite sure if you're a troll or not, but I'm taking the moderator's advice and leave this thread alone.

One final thought before I abandon this thread: It's not Allopath versus Osteopath but rather Allopath AND Osteopath.

 

[TehDoc]

Saying OMM = Voodoo (primitive rituals) = troll

 

[facetguy]

DO's do much more then just "spinal manipulation." There are many DO's out there that help countless pts with the training we recieve in OMM, not just "spinal manipulation." I find this generalization demeaning and I think you should get your facts straight before lumping our profession with chiropractors.

Uh, so do chiropractors.

 

[Tired]

Uh, so do chiropractors.

"Placebo Therapy" doesn't count as "doing something".

 

[facetguy]

"Placebo Therapy" doesn't count as "doing something".

That's a good one. (What does it mean, though?)

 

[Tired]

That's a good one. (What does it mean, though?)

Essentially:

Chiropractics = fake

 

[JaggerPlate]

"Placebo Therapy" doesn't count as "doing something".

 

[facetguy]

Essentially:

Chiropractics = fake

You are hanging around in an osteopathic forum, so I can assume that you are a DO. And you believe that chiropractic is "fake" (which doesn't even make sense, but whatever), so you must not think very highly of OMM, which strongly suggests you became a DO because you couldn't become an MD. Sounds to me like you've got a long bitter life ahead of you, my MD-wannabe friend. I almost feel badly for you. Good luck.

 

[ShyRem]

This has gone far enough.