Am I wrong for being right?

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bluenevus

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The following is a venting session, so read at your own risk! I’d appreciate any sincere advice or helpful responses, if you’d like to offer them.

What do you do when an attending you’ve never worked with before corrects what you say, but what you said is correct and what they’re telling you is wrong? I'm on an outpatient rotation and working with the same provider for only half-days at a time, so their first impressions and snap-judgments basically trump everything.

Today, I saw a patient with an erythematous, pruritic non-raised rash about the size of a quarter. I described it in my presentation as a “patch,” and my attending interrupted me during the presentation to say that it was a macule—“because it isn’t raised.” I told this person that a patch is not raised, actually—it’s just a larger macule greater than 1 cm—and a raised lesion of that size would be called a plaque. They said, “No, a patch is raised, but we can look it up later.” Needless to say, we never looked it up given they never brought it up again, and I didn’t want to risk coming off even worse as a “smart aleck” for looking up dermatological terms to show the attending I was right. It's lose-lose since this person basically holds your grade in their hands, and they don't want to hear they're wrong.

Later, this person interrupted me during another presentation to tell me to stop using the word “appreciate” during my presentation of a physical exam. I’ve never been told that before by anyone ever, but now all of a sudden I’m not allowed to use that word. :(

How do you deal with these situations? I will likely never work with this person again on this rotation, but this person could be influential in my grade given their status in the curriculum. I kind of already know what you might say, to just forget about it, but I wanted to vent regardless! :p

Thanks for putting up with it!

---

Pearls I’ve learned so far in this third-year "game," albeit tongue-in-cheek:


- Have a thick skin

- Always smile, especially during feedback, always

- Know when to ask honest questions about what you don’t know

- Know when to ask questions about things you do know and would like to impress someone by your already knowing what you’re asking

- Know when to NOT ask honest questions about what you don’t know so that no one realizes that you don’t know something

- Never correct anyone ever

- Immediately adapt to every situation

- Pray your patient never contradicts anything you say during your presentation or when they are asked questions by the attending, despite your best efforts to nail down their HPI

- Buy eyeglasses even if you don't need them to make you look smarter

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Arguing with the attending is a bad idea. I personally just accept whatever they said and move on even if they are wrong.
 
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Yeah, you're totally right. And that's what I've been doing. I just wanted to vent a frustration. It's hard feeling like I'm constantly kissing someone's ***, but perhaps that's how it'll be until I'm an attending myself!
 
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The trick to mastering the game is to realize that there is no game.
 
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Yeah, you're totally right. And that's what I've been doing. I just wanted to vent a frustration. It's hard feeling like I'm constantly kissing someone's ***, but perhaps that's how it'll be until I'm an attending myself!

You don't have to kiss ass. You just have to be respectful and nod your head as they "correct" you. If they ask you for an explanation as to why you called something X vs Y then I'd explain, but other than that, I never try to correct or give an attending unsolicited advice. Dealing with this doesn't end in med school and continues in residency, so get used to it unfortunately.
 
When you're a student and resident you're wrong wven when you're right.
 
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You don't have to kiss ass. You just have to be respectful and nod your head as they "correct" you. If they ask you for an explanation as to why you called something X vs Y then I'd explain, but other than that, I never try to correct or give an attending unsolicited advice. Dealing with this doesn't end in med school and continues in residency, so get used to it unfortunately.

This is great advice! Thank you!!
 
Why can't it be a macule? Not saying it's not a patch, but maybe it's both.
 

Yeah, I was joking, but I know that my humor doesn't come across that way on the forum. This was based on a joke between my best friend and myself because she recently got glasses and said that all of a sudden residents and attendings treated her differently.

Why can't it be a macule? Not saying it's not a patch, but maybe it's both.

Yeah, I think that patch was the most precise term given the size of the lesion. But next time, I will just say whatever my attending says. I'm still learning how to third-year. Hope I won't be too late to the party.
 
I've been "corrected" several times by attendings. At first I'm like wtf are you talking about but quickly realized that anything other than nodding my head gets me nowhere. Some jerk wrote a comment for me saying that knowing things would be more useful than trying to give the impression that I know things all because I gave a solid explanation for something that he didn't understand. He was an idiot.
 
Later, this person interrupted me during another presentation to tell me to stop using the word “appreciate” during my presentation of a physical exam. I’ve never been told that before by anyone ever, but now all of a sudden I’m not allowed to use that word. :(

The word "appreciate" tends to bug some attendings. Especially when you "Appreciate GI recs" in your plan. http://gomerblog.com/2015/11/gi-fellow-inconsolable/ :D
 
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As you go through your training, you should always look up the pearls that residents and attendings teach you. You'd be surprised how much you are taught which is incorrect and goes against the current evidence.

Not that you need to go back and correct everyone, but it will be the most useful to your education. If you're working with someone a few times you could always pull the "I'm confused, can you further explain to me?" card and bring in a textbook or pubmed printout that supports your stance.
 
- Always smile, especially during feedback, always

Sounds like awful advice. Smiling like a buffoon while your supervisor is telling you why you messed up is not making a good impression.

As for your story, sucks that you were right but sometimes life is not fair. This may sound like I don't care, but I do empathize with your situation and the best course of action (where shortly you won't work with your attending ever again) is to say something like "Thanks for clearing that up" and not using the word appreciate around him/her during a physical. Now, I personally would bring the matter of macule vs patch up with a mentor for the sake of my own medical knowledge (maybe you were wrong? get a second or third opinion), but would never bring up the topic again with the attending.
 
Some people consider a patch to be any "flat" lesiin with a hint of surface change (e.g. scale), regardless of size (likewise, any flat lesion such as vitiligo would be a macule, even if it is 10cm in size). This is the minority view but it appears in some texts.
By and large, macule is a patch under 0.5 or 1.0cm (this is debated as well). Said another way, a patch is a macule greater than 0.5 or 1.0cm.

Papules and plaque have the same relationship. A papule is raised and less than 0.5 or 1.0cm. A plaque is raised and is greater than 0.5 to 1.0cm.

Your attending, by most interpretations, was incorrect. But by now you realize this doesn't matter as a med student.

If you never work with him again, so be it. If you do, a best case scenario would be if they asked you to do a brief presentation on a subject of your choice, in which case you would choose "Dermatology descriptions for dummies."
 
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What do you do when an attending you’ve never worked with before corrects what you say, but what you said is correct and what they’re telling you is wrong?

"Yes sir" or "Oh yeah" or "Sorry I thought it was the other way around, thank you for the correction"


This isnt the time when you assert your correctness
 
You're right about the patch, but I can see where he was coming from WRT "appreciate." Whenever I use it, it's essentially a hedge - a not-as-embarrassing way of saying "I didn't hear/feel X, but I'm not even close to confident enough to say that it wasn't present." Obviously, this is only true if used in the negative; if you appreciated a murmur, you appreciated it.
 
ENT rotation during a surgery to remove a large lipoma. ENT surgeon tells me if I can ID a certain muscle buried in his bloody mess, he'd be impressed.

Him: "I'll give you an A for the rotation, yuk yuk."
Me: It's the omohyoid.
Him: Wow, I am impressed.
Me: The inferior belly, to be exact (which it was)
Him: Oh, now you just ruined it! The omohyoid muscle doesn't have a belly. You're thinking of the digastric muscle. FAIL!!!"

Uh, no. But I just acted grateful to have received this information, while he and the other surgeon who was scrubbed in gloated in their superior knowledge.
 
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ENT rotation during a surgery to remove a large lipoma. ENT surgeon tells me if I can ID a certain muscle buried in his bloody mess, he'd be impressed.

Him: "I'll give you an A for the rotation, yuk yuk."
Me: It's the omohyoid.
Him: Wow, I am impressed.
Me: The inferior belly, to be exact (which it was)
Him: Oh, now you just ruined it! The omohyoid muscle doesn't have a belly. You're thinking of the digastric muscle. FAIL!!!"

Uh, no. But I just acted grateful to have received this information, while he and the other surgeon who was scrubbed in gloated in their superior knowledge.

He was probably just trolling you lol.
 
I have had many moments like this, especially with pathophysio of diseases and drug mechanisms. One surgery I was asked to identify Lund's node on the gallbladder and he corrected me saying it was Calot's node. It resides in the triangle of Calot but the node isn't named that. Kinda nitpicky but it is just annoying when you know something well and it is just shut down.
 
I have had many occassions where I was told something incorrect by an attending, only to have them come back later and tell me they were wrong. This is what intellectually honest people do. You have no obligation to feign agreement.

I take a middle road. I go "hmm" or "I'll have to read on that more later" or make some kind of similar non-committal statement that I acknowledge and respect their teaching without agreeing with their specific point. Lets me keep my dignity without making me look like a contrarian or a brown-noser.
Ya but ur a renegade. Most of us aint that brave.
 
Not sure if sarcastic, but I think many other residents do the same. Maybe I just agreed in med school though. Or maybe not. Can't remember.

In residency I was a fan of saying, "I haven't reviewed (insert source here) in a while, I need to go over it again." Sometimes I got a "That's the problem, you need to read (different source)."
 
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Later, this person interrupted me during another presentation to tell me to stop using the word “appreciate” during my presentation of a physical exam. I’ve never been told that before by anyone ever, but now all of a sudden I’m not allowed to use that word. :(

I am asssuming you were saying something to the effect of, "No murmurs appreciated." It is common enough for this to annoy people, especially the older guys. It seems non-committal and spineless. They want you to lay your money down.
 
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Hey guys, thanks for all your advice. I definitely learned from the experience and reading your comments. I hope you had a happy thanksgiving with lots of leftovers!
 
My favorites were
1. When attendings would heckle me during topic presentations as if I were wrong about something I had just spent a good amount of time reading about.
2. Commends along the lines of "average knowledge" or "needs to read more" and then scoring in the 90's raw on the shelf.

Med School is a game. No different than any other field or line of work.
 
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My favorites were
1. When attendings would heckle me during topic presentations as if I were wrong about something I had just spent a good amount of time reading about.
2. Commends along the lines of "average knowledge" or "needs to read more" and then scoring in the 90's raw on the shelf.

Med School is a game. No different than any other field or line of work.

What gets you a good score on the shelf and what is good clinical knowledge are two separate things. These exams tend to test a lot of clinically worthless minutia which are decades stale from clinical practice. Who the hell does an india ink test anymore? Perhaps if you're in rural Kenya...
 
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What gets you a good score on the shelf and what is good clinical knowledge are two separate things. These exams tend to test a lot of clinically worthless minutia which are decades stale from clinical practice. Who the hell does an india ink test anymore? Perhaps if you're in rural Kenya...


sounds like loser talk to me
 
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Was asked an anatomy question during a GYN surgery. I correctly answered the question. Was told I answered incorrectly, because the resident had meant to ask me a different question than she actually had.

OK. Sorry, I'm not a psychic.

(I am not even kidding. I am so glad to be an MS4 with only several weeks of required stuff left.)
 
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