AMA Supports Ending "DO Discrimination"

[drusso]

AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION HOUSE OF DELEGATES


Resolution: 809
(I-05)

Introduced by: Medical Student Section

Subject: Equal Fees for Osteopathic and Allopathic Medical Students

Referred to: Reference Committee K
(Eugenia Marcus, MD, Chair)



Whereas, The American Medical Association has current policy supporting the equal acknowledgement of both Doctors of Medicine (MDs) and Doctors of Osteopathy (DOs) (AMA Policies H-405.989 and G-635.053); and

Whereas, Some allopathic institutions clearly state that all US trained allopathic and osteopathic medical students who have taken the United States Medical Licensing Examination and/or Comprehensive Osteopathic Medical Licensing Examination are eligible to complete rotations; and

Whereas, Some allopathic institutions currently charge visiting students of American Osteopathic Association-accredited medical schools an “administrative fee” that is not charged to visiting Liaison Committee on Medical Education medical students; and

Whereas, A majority of US clinical training programs do not establish differing fee scales for allopathic versus osteopathic-trained medical students; therefore be it

RESOLVED, That American Medical Association Policies H-405.989, “Physicians and Surgeons,” and G-635.053, “AMA Membership Strategy: Osteopathic Medicine,” be reaffirmed (Reaffirm HOD Policy); and be it further

RESOLVED, That our AMA discourage discrimination by institutions and programs based on osteopathic or allopathic training (New HOD Policy); and be it further

RESOLVED, That our AMA support equal fees for clinical rotation externships by osteopathic and allopathic medical students (New HOD Policy); and be it further

RESOLVED, That our AMA encourage that Liaison Committee on Medical Education- and Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education-accredited institutions maintain fair practice standards for equal access to all US medical students, osteopathic and allopathic. (New HOD Policy)



Fiscal Note: Staff cost estimated at less than $500 to implement.

Received: 9/20/05


RELEVANT AMA POLICY

H-405.989 Physicians and Surgeons
(1) It is AMA policy to refer only to Doctors of Medicine (MDs) and Doctors of Osteopathy (DOs) as “physicians and surgeons.” (2) The AMA supports working to ensure that federal and state regulations and hospital medical staff bylaws comply with this designation. (Res. 78, I-88; Reaffirmed: Sunset Report, I-98; Reaffirmed in lieu of Res. 615, A-05)

G-635.053 AMA Membership Strategy: Osteopathic Medicine
Our AMA’s membership strategy on osteopathic physicians (DOs) includes the following: Our AMA: (1) encourages all state societies to accept DOs as members at every level of the Federation; (2) encourages state societies with schools of osteopathic medicine to support development of Medical Student Sections at those schools; both the MSS Governing Council and existing MSS chapters in states with osteopathic schools should assist in this effort; (3) encourages that DO members of our AMA continue to participate in the Member-Get-a-Member program; (4) will provide recruiters with targeted lists of DO nonmembers upon request; (5) will include DOs, as appropriate, in direct nonmember mailings; and (6) will expand its database of information on osteopathic students and doctors. (BOT Rep. I-93-11; Consolidated: CLRPD Rep. 3, I-01)

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[allendo]

AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION HOUSE OF DELEGATES


Resolution: 809
(I-05)

Introduced by: Medical Student Section

Subject: Equal Fees for Osteopathic and Allopathic Medical Students

Referred to: Reference Committee K
(Eugenia Marcus, MD, Chair)



Whereas, The American Medical Association has current policy supporting the equal acknowledgement of both Doctors of Medicine (MDs) and Doctors of Osteopathy (DOs) (AMA Policies H-405.989 and G-635.053); and

Whereas, Some allopathic institutions clearly state that all US trained allopathic and osteopathic medical students who have taken the United States Medical Licensing Examination and/or Comprehensive Osteopathic Medical Licensing Examination are eligible to complete rotations; and

Whereas, Some allopathic institutions currently charge visiting students of American Osteopathic Association-accredited medical schools an “administrative fee” that is not charged to visiting Liaison Committee on Medical Education medical students; and

Whereas, A majority of US clinical training programs do not establish differing fee scales for allopathic versus osteopathic-trained medical students; therefore be it

RESOLVED, That American Medical Association Policies H-405.989, “Physicians and Surgeons,” and G-635.053, “AMA Membership Strategy: Osteopathic Medicine,” be reaffirmed (Reaffirm HOD Policy); and be it further

RESOLVED, That our AMA discourage discrimination by institutions and programs based on osteopathic or allopathic training (New HOD Policy); and be it further

RESOLVED, That our AMA support equal fees for clinical rotation externships by osteopathic and allopathic medical students (New HOD Policy); and be it further

RESOLVED, That our AMA encourage that Liaison Committee on Medical Education- and Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education-accredited institutions maintain fair practice standards for equal access to all US medical students, osteopathic and allopathic. (New HOD Policy)



Fiscal Note: Staff cost estimated at less than $500 to implement.

Received: 9/20/05


RELEVANT AMA POLICY

H-405.989 Physicians and Surgeons
(1) It is AMA policy to refer only to Doctors of Medicine (MDs) and Doctors of Osteopathy (DOs) as “physicians and surgeons.” (2) The AMA supports working to ensure that federal and state regulations and hospital medical staff bylaws comply with this designation. (Res. 78, I-88; Reaffirmed: Sunset Report, I-98; Reaffirmed in lieu of Res. 615, A-05)

G-635.053 AMA Membership Strategy: Osteopathic Medicine
Our AMA’s membership strategy on osteopathic physicians (DOs) includes the following: Our AMA: (1) encourages all state societies to accept DOs as members at every level of the Federation; (2) encourages state societies with schools of osteopathic medicine to support development of Medical Student Sections at those schools; both the MSS Governing Council and existing MSS chapters in states with osteopathic schools should assist in this effort; (3) encourages that DO members of our AMA continue to participate in the Member-Get-a-Member program; (4) will provide recruiters with targeted lists of DO nonmembers upon request; (5) will include DOs, as appropriate, in direct nonmember mailings; and (6) will expand its database of information on osteopathic students and doctors. (BOT Rep. I-93-11; Consolidated: CLRPD Rep. 3, I-01)

So do you think that places that wouldn't let us rotate there before will let us now?

 

[HunterGatherer]

Dr. Russo could you comment on this? Thanks for the post!

 

[medhacker]

It seems to only be a recommendation an "encouragement". The AMA also recommended MD schools would substantially increase their class sizes to accomodate for the physician deficit, however not all MD schools complied. Hopefully this resolution is followed upon.

 

[docbill]

Good Move on behalf of the AMA.

It is a recommendation but its a good will one.

I see AMA working to help DO students.. however, AOA, keep trying to tell students that they are the big bad wolf.

 

[dr.z]

Thanks for the post!

 

[Huntr]

Great post thanks!

 

[laboholic]

It seems like the AMA is listening to the AOA and making things equal, but allopathic students are still not allowed to match into osteopathic residencies. Check me if im wrong but it seems like hypocrisy.

 

[DrMom]

There actually is discussion in the AOA about eventually opening up our residencies for MDs. They would require some kind of OMM training, but it might be incorporated into the residency.

 

[laboholic]

There actually is discussion in the AOA about eventually opening up our residencies for MDs. They would require some kind of OMM training, but it might be incorporated into the residency.

thats good, it seems only fair..

Do you know if osteo students can join the AOA? I was looking on their site and couldnt find anything that talked about students.

 

[DrMom]

Osteo students are automatically members of the AOA, IIRC.

 

[medhacker]

Osteo students are automatically members of the AOA, IIRC.

I think he means the allopathic AOA honor society. And I think the answer is, theoretically there is no bylaw in it to prevent it, however in practice it seems like not possible - it is a private society and they have the final word as to who they accept.

 

[DrMom]

I think he means the allopathic AOA honor society.

Hmmm. Everything else in this thread had been referring to Am Osteo Assn. That would've been quite a non-sequitur.

 

[mkmgal]

Boy, it's starting to seem like the AMA is helping the osteopathic profession move forward more than the AOA. It appears the AMA is gradually breaking down more barriers, while the AOA will shun their own. Sad. I hope our profession will find a way to survive, despite our leadership who refuses to listen to the voice of the people.

 

[Huntr]

It seems like the AMA is listening to the AOA and making things equal, but allopathic students are still not allowed to match into osteopathic residencies. Check me if im wrong but it seems like hypocrisy.

I agree 100%

 

[laboholic]

I think he means the allopathic AOA honor society. And I think the answer is, theoretically there is no bylaw in it to prevent it, however in practice it seems like not possible - it is a private society and they have the final word as to who they accept.

no: american osteo assoc

Boy, it's starting to seem like the AMA is helping the osteopathic profession move forward more than the AOA. It appears the AMA is gradually breaking down more barriers, while the AOA will shun their own. Sad. I hope our profession will find a way to survive, despite our leadership who refuses to listen to the voice of the people.

Ultimately, the future of osteopathy rests on our shoulders. I plan on being as involved as I can as a student. Everyone else should voice their opinion as well.

 

[somnolent]

Boy, it's starting to seem like the AMA is helping the osteopathic profession move forward more than the AOA. It appears the AMA is gradually breaking down more barriers, while the AOA will shun their own. Sad. I hope our profession will find a way to survive, despite our leadership who refuses to listen to the voice of the people.

I think I read it on this site, or somewhere else, but it went something like this:

"First, they (AMA) tried to eliminate us, then they tried to absorb us, now they're trying to kill us with kindness."

I haven't decided if its a win-win situation, lose-lose situation, win-lose, lose-win.....its kinda confusing. It does seem, though, that the AMA is trying to make things easier, while the AOA (others may disagree) is just being difficult.

The AMA makes motions to bring about equality, the AOA always votes for the "status quo" which hasn't ushered in any progression for some time.

 

[Old_Mil]

I think I read it on this site, or somewhere else, but it went something like this:

"First, they (AMA) tried to eliminate us, then they tried to absorb us, now they're trying to kill us with kindness."

I haven't decided if its a win-win situation, lose-lose situation, win-lose, lose-win.....its kinda confusing. It does seem, though, that the AMA is trying to make things easier, while the AOA (others may disagree) is just being difficult.

The AMA makes motions to bring about equality, the AOA always votes for the "status quo" which hasn't ushered in any progression for some time.

My suspicion is that this is a "win-win" situation for us as DOs as we fully participate in the largest, most effective body within organized medicine and reap the benefits that arise from such involvement.

Is there history here? Sure there is, however osteopaths are as responsible for this history as are allopaths. If you doubt me, just go read Dr. Still's quotes. The fact is that there are very few graduating DOs today (really, only OMT specialists) who would meet his pure standard of osteopathy.

Unfortunately, I see the AOA acting in the best interest of the AOA, not of OMSs, DOs, or "the profession" (as if opening for profit medical schools fits in that category).

I am an AMA member and highly recommend that everyone consider student membership in that organization. For example, while the AOA is lecturing me on why I really don't know enough to want a combined match, I (along with a couple of my peers) are student delegates to the annual conference of our state medical society. If you don't have an AMA club at your osteopathic medical school, consider starting one yourself.

 

[TCOM-2006]

many important issues have been brought up in the post - and i would like to address some of them:

1- i think the most important point to take away from this is that the AMA is a democratic, open minded organization that wants to support all its members - MD and DO. of course this has not always been true - many older thinking DOs, including some in AOA leadership, view the AMA for what it was ("that allopathic organization") instead of what it now is (the UN of medicine - see my previous posts on this). those who have a mistaken view of the AMA are responding with their emotions rather than their reason (i could literally see the increase in BP of some of the older DOs when i mentioned i was involved with the AMA). the AOA still, and will have an important role to play, but it's important that we have one unified body of medicine.

2- someone recomended starting an AMA chapter at your osteopathic school if you don't have one already - I AGREE! this gives you representation at state and national meetings. however, there are some school administrators - like those at NSU-COM and LECOM for example - who are activley opposed to the formation of an AMA chapter. i don't think this is fair - it should be up to the students at each of the schools, according to established guidelines for forming any new student organization. those administrators that deny students this opportunity are denying their students a voice in the larger medical student and medical community, and the leadership experience that comes with involvement. see my previous posts on this for more info.

3- to address another point raised: because the AMA does not control what fees individual insitutions charge, it can only "recommend" not require (it's a issue of appropriate wording). this is also true with LCME school enrollment.

 

[timtye78]

Recommendations seem generous to me. As a DO resident it seems to me that if an institution rejected those recommendations they can be viewed as archeic (sp?) or outright anti-DO and it simply would be a red-flag that you would be in a hostile environment right from the start. So pick your poison.


Regardless of old beliefs of MD superiority young MDs and MD students resent the fact that we as DOs are allowed to compete for and obtain MD training especially in the competitive fields.

I think it would be great if MD could apply for osteo residencies, but wouldn't that effectively end what they call osteopathic residency--ie who cares. The admin for a long time would still be DOs, and the suprising thing is that the MDs would train at what would be regarded osteopathic hospitals. This probably would occur much more often in the hot fields like anesthesia,rads,ortho,uro, ent etc. I think it would dilute the anger from these excellent future docs and co-workers that they had equal footing, and possibly help DOs match more MD training. Another good part for the DO residency programs is that this would introduce more academically gifted applicants and thus the highly desired prestige for the programs and hospitals again.

PDs KNOW DOs can apply to osteopathic programs, maybe that is part of the prejudice they use to rationalize their anti-DO sentiment-why would you want to help someone over a student from your own institution vs a DO student who in theory has more options (ie residency programs) to apply to?

just my 2 cents

 

[Stratus2675]

It seems like the AMA is listening to the AOA and making things equal, but allopathic students are still not allowed to match into osteopathic residencies. Check me if im wrong but it seems like hypocrisy.

I agree.... the road goes both ways

 

[XKV]

I apologize, but I am a little ignorant about how the voting process works within the AMA. This is a resolution that was introduced by the AMA Student Section in 2005. So now what? Is there a vote by a general body of AMA delegates, etc etc?

 

[Diane L. Evans]

Hopefully this will help. Will this help out the DO's in allopathic residency? I have seen older faculty judge DO' s and critique their performances more so than their allopathic classmates. I am sure many of you have had this scenerio where you will be talking and mid-sentence "Oh you're a D.O." and the conversation stops.

 

[randomdude]

You know, I may be off topic, but I have a rant. Please bear with me.

Can we stop threads titled:

12 MCAT and 1.8 GPA at xxCOM?

or

DO rotations/boards easier?

or

DO at an allopathic general surgery spot!!!!! WOW!!!!!

or

DO Discrimination at so and so place!! OH NO!

or

DOs mentioned in Rachel Ray's 30 min meals today!!!

or

anything similar.

So many ppl are pissed about DO discrimination and lack of respect, but honestly, how can we get respect if we keep posting things like that?

I don't mean to start any wars or argument or flame anyone, I really don't. I know some people are new and innocent and don't know any better and want information, but still. I guess I'm trying to say that we can't expect respect if all we do is vehemently praise or defend ourselves to prove that we're just as good. Example - Newsweek's Hero, MD cover. Yes, he was a DO. They made a stupid error. But many in the SDN DO community were in an uproar about this. The point was he's a military doctor, who cares if he's a DO or MD. Stop trying to find reasons to prove why we're good enough. It's not that cool to find a DO was mentioned somewhere in passing or on TV or on an infomercial or if a DO writes for so and so TV show. I guess it just seems like we act as if we don't belong when we do stuff like that.

I guess my point is we all know DOs belong in every aspect of medicine. Let's stop trying to defend ourselves over little things and start proving ourselves at the bedside.

Let the attacks toward me begin.

 

[Luba Licious]

So many ppl are pissed about DO discrimination and lack of respect, but honestly, how can we get respect if we keep posting things like that?

I don't mean to start any wars or argument or flame anyone, I really don't. I know some people are new and innocent and don't know any better and want information, but still. I guess I'm trying to say that we can't expect respect if all we do is vehemently praise or defend ourselves to prove that we're just as good. Example - Newsweek's Hero, MD cover. Yes, he was a DO. They made a stupid error. But many in the SDN DO community were in an uproar about this. The point was he's a military doctor, who cares if he's a DO or MD. Stop trying to find reasons to prove why we're good enough. It's not that cool to find a DO was mentioned somewhere in passing or on TV or on an infomercial or if a DO writes for so and so TV show. I guess it just seems like we act as if we don't belong when we do stuff like that.

I guess my point is we all know DOs belong in every aspect of medicine. Let's stop trying to defend ourselves over little things and start proving ourselves at the bedside.

Let the attacks toward me begin.

I concur. Well said.

 

[Jack Daniel]

I guess my point is we all know DOs belong in every aspect of medicine. Let's stop trying to defend ourselves over little things and start proving ourselves at the bedside.

Let the attacks toward me begin.

No attacks from me. I agree.

 

[Old_Mil]

I don't mean to start any wars or argument or flame anyone, I really don't. I know some people are new and innocent and don't know any better and want information, but still. I guess I'm trying to say that we can't expect respect if all we do is vehemently praise or defend ourselves to prove that we're just as good.

You won't get any arguments from me. I think the majority of the problem arises from the "I really wanted to be a chiropractor but I came to DO school so I could write scrips for Vancomycin" crowd.

Just this afternoon, Dr. Shill is coming to explain to the unwashed masses why we really don't want a combined match.

 

[dr_frog_2010]

You know, I may be off topic, but I have a rant. Please bear with me.

Can we stop threads titled:

12 MCAT and 1.8 GPA at xxCOM?

or

DO rotations/boards easier?

or

DO at an allopathic general surgery spot!!!!! WOW!!!!!

or

DO Discrimination at so and so place!! OH NO!

or

DOs mentioned in Rachel Ray's 30 min meals today!!!

or

anything similar.

So many ppl are pissed about DO discrimination and lack of respect, but honestly, how can we get respect if we keep posting things like that?

I don't mean to start any wars or argument or flame anyone, I really don't. I know some people are new and innocent and don't know any better and want information, but still. I guess I'm trying to say that we can't expect respect if all we do is vehemently praise or defend ourselves to prove that we're just as good. Example - Newsweek's Hero, MD cover. Yes, he was a DO. They made a stupid error. But many in the SDN DO community were in an uproar about this. The point was he's a military doctor, who cares if he's a DO or MD. Stop trying to find reasons to prove why we're good enough. It's not that cool to find a DO was mentioned somewhere in passing or on TV or on an infomercial or if a DO writes for so and so TV show. I guess it just seems like we act as if we don't belong when we do stuff like that.

I guess my point is we all know DOs belong in every aspect of medicine. Let's stop trying to defend ourselves over little things and start proving ourselves at the bedside.

Let the attacks toward me begin.

I should have concurred! That was summed up most exceptionally! Great point of view...I just hope the right people hear the message and not just see the words.

 

[ajanedo]

You know, I may be off topic, but I have a rant. Please bear with me.

Can we stop threads titled:

12 MCAT and 1.8 GPA at xxCOM?

or

DO rotations/boards easier?

or

DO at an allopathic general surgery spot!!!!! WOW!!!!!

or

DO Discrimination at so and so place!! OH NO!

or

DOs mentioned in Rachel Ray's 30 min meals today!!!

or

anything similar.

So many ppl are pissed about DO discrimination and lack of respect, but honestly, how can we get respect if we keep posting things like that?

I don't mean to start any wars or argument or flame anyone, I really don't. I know some people are new and innocent and don't know any better and want information, but still. I guess I'm trying to say that we can't expect respect if all we do is vehemently praise or defend ourselves to prove that we're just as good. Example - Newsweek's Hero, MD cover. Yes, he was a DO. They made a stupid error. But many in the SDN DO community were in an uproar about this. The point was he's a military doctor, who cares if he's a DO or MD. Stop trying to find reasons to prove why we're good enough. It's not that cool to find a DO was mentioned somewhere in passing or on TV or on an infomercial or if a DO writes for so and so TV show. I guess it just seems like we act as if we don't belong when we do stuff like that.

I guess my point is we all know DOs belong in every aspect of medicine. Let's stop trying to defend ourselves over little things and start proving ourselves at the bedside.

Let the attacks toward me begin.

I like Rachel Ray's 30 min meals !!!!

 

[jhug]

we just had this horrible lawyer from des moines speak to us...the guy was a total waste of an otherwise relatively intelligent person. His end recommendations: don't do volunteer work, you'll get sued...don't give advice to anyone, even family, you'll get sued...try your best and be nice- and expect to be sued.
He wasted 2 hours of my life bragging about how he is sucking all that is good, kind, and compassionate out of OUR profession! This walking bipolar personality disorder is the reason we all need to join the AMA and be active in fighting for our right to practice the art and science of medicine. Apathy will be our own demise.

 

[dreambig2night]

You know, I may be off topic, but I have a rant. Please bear with me.

Can we stop threads titled:

12 MCAT and 1.8 GPA at xxCOM?

or

DO rotations/boards easier?

or

DO at an allopathic general surgery spot!!!!! WOW!!!!!

or

DO Discrimination at so and so place!! OH NO!

or

DOs mentioned in Rachel Ray's 30 min meals today!!!

or

anything similar.

So many ppl are pissed about DO discrimination and lack of respect, but honestly, how can we get respect if we keep posting things like that?

I don't mean to start any wars or argument or flame anyone, I really don't. I know some people are new and innocent and don't know any better and want information, but still. I guess I'm trying to say that we can't expect respect if all we do is vehemently praise or defend ourselves to prove that we're just as good. Example - Newsweek's Hero, MD cover. Yes, he was a DO. They made a stupid error. But many in the SDN DO community were in an uproar about this. The point was he's a military doctor, who cares if he's a DO or MD. Stop trying to find reasons to prove why we're good enough. It's not that cool to find a DO was mentioned somewhere in passing or on TV or on an infomercial or if a DO writes for so and so TV show. I guess it just seems like we act as if we don't belong when we do stuff like that.

I guess my point is we all know DOs belong in every aspect of medicine. Let's stop trying to defend ourselves over little things and start proving ourselves at the bedside.

Let the attacks toward me begin.

I disagree with you on this issue. You are right, it shows maturity when we dont make a big deal about insults that are out of ignorance. But that does not mean that being silent will ensure that people will begin to understand. Sure it shows that we are matured but people will still believe the wrong thing and will continue to live in ignorance. So I think it is absolutely necessary to educate others. The 'Hero M.D' article was one such issue where the public had to know. I am not sure if DO's were begging for recognition when they reacted to the article. Maybe some, but not all.

I do agree with you that some of those questions can be answered with a simple NO or YES, and we should stop at that.

For Example, if someone says " OMG I just heard about a guy who got in with a 12MCAT and 2.00 GPA? IS THIS TRUE?????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think it suffices to just answer: no

 

[RedSoxDO]

I disagree with you on this issue. You are right, it shows maturity when we dont make a big deal about insults that are out of ignorance. But that does not mean that being silent will ensure that people will begin to understand. Sure it shows that we are matured but people will still believe the wrong thing and will continue to live in ignorance. So I think it is absolutely necessary to educate others. The 'Hero M.D' article was one such issue where the public had to know. I am not sure if DO's were begging for recognition when they reacted to the article. Maybe some, but not all.

I do agree with you that some of those questions can be answered with a simple NO or YES, and we should stop at that.

For Example, if someone says " OMG I just heard about a guy who got in with a 12MCAT and 2.00 GPA? IS THIS TRUE?????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think it suffices to just answer: no

Actually, I think the biggest problem is with med and pre-med students. Talk to anyone on the street and ask them about DOs. If they even know what they are, their response is likely to be one of two things

1) They've got a much better bedside manner. I love them.
2) They're licensed to practice medicine. That's good enough for me.

 

[medhacker]

I disagree with you on this issue. You are right, it shows maturity when we dont make a big deal about insults that are out of ignorance. But that does not mean that being silent will ensure that people will begin to understand. Sure it shows that we are matured but people will still believe the wrong thing and will continue to live in ignorance. So I think it is absolutely necessary to educate others. The 'Hero M.D' article was one such issue where the public had to know. I am not sure if DO's were begging for recognition when they reacted to the article. Maybe some, but not all.

I do agree with you that some of those questions can be answered with a simple NO or YES, and we should stop at that.

For Example, if someone says " OMG I just heard about a guy who got in with a 12MCAT and 2.00 GPA? IS THIS TRUE?????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think it suffices to just answer: no

 

[newyorkcougar]

The AMA committee is reasearching reciprocity. Clearly they want equal treatment for MD students from DO schools. I really hope they find it. It would be rediculous to find that the DO's are complaining that they dont' get equal treatment if they don't give it to the MD students.

 

[exmike]

Actually, I think the biggest problem is with med and pre-med students. Talk to anyone on the street and ask them about DOs. If they even know what they are, their response is likely to be one of two things

1) They've got a much better bedside manner. I love them.
2) They're licensed to practice medicine. That's good enough for me.

Thats funny, I've never heard any patients say DO's have better bedside manners. Perhaps thats anectdotal.

Do you really think it helps the cause of uniting the medical profession when DO's (or rather DO students/preDO) like to go around talking about how they treat the "whole patient" and how they have "better bedside manners" and take a "humanistic approach" towards medicine as if MD's ignore beside manners and don't treat the whole patient?

I find that the ones most touchy about supposed MD discrimination of DOs also tend to the the ones that flaunt supposed DO superiorities (i.e. tx the whole patient, not just the disease). Look in the mirror people before you start complaining about MDs dissing DOs (or premed dissing DOs). It goes both ways.

 

[Mixmaster]

Thats funny, I've never heard any patients say DO's have better bedside manners. Perhaps thats anectdotal.

Do you really think it helps the cause of uniting the medical profession when DO's (or rather DO students/preDO) like to go around talking about how they treat the "whole patient" and how they have "better bedside manners" and take a "humanistic approach" towards medicine as if MD's ignore beside manners and don't treat the whole patient?

I find that the ones most touchy about supposed MD discrimination of DOs also tend to the the ones that flaunt supposed DO superiorities (i.e. tx the whole patient, not just the disease). Look in the mirror people before you start complaining about MDs dissing DOs (or premed dissing DOs). It goes both ways.

No arguments here. I dont understand how being a DO will help with bedside manners. There is no class that teaches it. There is no special training. Maybe a patient did say that, but I am sure there is also a pt that would never go to a DO again because of poor bedside manners. I hate how we even discuss MD/DO we should be spending time studying and working to be good Dr's. The AOA needs to realize they are not better and in fact NO different. Otherwise the DO will continue to deal with this b&*$s#*#
The only difference is the letters PERIOD.

 

[OSUdoc08]

No arguments here. I dont understand how being a DO will help with bedside manners. There is no class that teaches it. There is no special training. Maybe a patient did say that, but I am sure there is also a pt that would never go to a DO again because of poor bedside manners. I hate how we even discuss MD/DO we should be spending time studying and working to be good Dr's. The AOA needs to realize they are not better and in fact NO different. Otherwise the DO will continue to deal with this b&*$s#*#
The only difference is the letters PERIOD.

Incorrect. You have been misinformed. (Either that, or you have never actually seen a DO physician.)

 

[exmike]

Incorrect. You have been misinformed. (Either that, or you have never actually seen a DO physician.)

Could you be one of those chip on shoulder DO students I am referring to? Could you possibly be suggesting that bedside manners arent taught at MD schools? (either that, or you have never attended an allopathic medical school). Oh wait. You haven't.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Could you be one of those chip on shoulder DO students I am referring to? Could you possibly be suggesting that bedside manners arent taught at MD schools? (either that, or you have never attended an allopathic medical school). Oh wait. You haven't.

You're right, but I sure have seen plenty of allopathic medical students (and heard from the nursing staff about them.)

 

[exmike]

You're right, but I sure have seen plenty of allopathic medical students (and heard from the nursing staff about them.)

Lets leave the anecdotal evidence out shall we? I've heard plenty from docs and attendings about DO students.. but I'm not going to condemn the entire group.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Lets leave the anecdotal evidence out shall we? I've heard plenty from docs and attendings about DO students.. but I'm not going to condemn the entire group.

Et tu, Brute.

 

[Haemulon]

Et tu, Brute.

If he is Brute, does that make you the dying Caeser??

 

[OSUdoc08]

If he is Brute, does that make you the dying Caeser??

Yes. I'm dead now.

 

[homeboy]

I agree with exmike and mix...
I'm sick to death (and I'm sick of typing "sick to death") of DO students and the AOA touting how compassionate DOs are...how they have better bedside manner...how they tx the patient not the disease...
The only people that buy into that nonsense are the fringes (and unfortunately the loudest) of osteopathic medicine.

The AOA does not speak for all members of the profession it overseas, mainly becuase so many DOs are sick of the political crap and go allopathic from residency on.

It is intrinsically arrogant to parade around claiming DOs are better physicians simply because their initials vary by 1 letter with the facade of "extra training" being the reason. More musculoskeletal education? Possible, and this varies from school to school, both MD and DO, but outside years 1 and 2 (which includes OMM didactics and labs), the only difference in clinicals is that most MD schools have the luxury of affording their students consistent rotations and educational opportunities at their teaching facilities...most DO schools (save the few at larger universities) send their students out to various hospitals. The clinical organization of DO schools pales in comparison to most allopathic institutions, not necessarily in quality of educaiton, but definately in organization and availability.

 

[skb21]

Apparently, this hasn't caught on at some places yet. I contacted a particular orthopaedic surgery program this past week, and I was told that they didn't take students from schools that are not LCME approved.

 

[doctor dork]

I agree with exmike and mix...
I'm sick to death (and I'm sick of typing "sick to death") of DO students and the AOA touting how compassionate DOs are...how they have better bedside manner...how they tx the patient not the disease...
The only people that buy into that nonsense are the fringes (and unfortunately the loudest) of osteopathic medicine.

The AOA does not speak for all members of the profession it overseas, mainly becuase so many DOs are sick of the political crap and go allopathic from residency on.

It is intrinsically arrogant to parade around claiming DOs are better physicians simply because their initials vary by 1 letter with the facade of "extra training" being the reason. More musculoskeletal education? Possible, and this varies from school to school, both MD and DO, but outside years 1 and 2 (which includes OMM didactics and labs), the only difference in clinicals is that most MD schools have the luxury of affording their students consistent rotations and educational opportunities at their teaching facilities...most DO schools (save the few at larger universities) send their students out to various hospitals. The clinical organization of DO schools pales in comparison to most allopathic institutions, not necessarily in quality of educaiton, but definately in organization and availability.

I concur! The AMA and state medical associations also seem to listen to their students more than the AOA or osteopathic state organizations. For example, some of the state osteopathic societies my have student representatives but they are NOT allowed to vote on any business whereas the state medical associations do allow students to vote. What does that tell us as osteopathic students? - you can potentially vote in the state medical association (which many in the osteopathic community believe is disloyal) and NOT in your osteopathic society which is supposed to represent you.

 

[docbill]

I was going to write something here.. but since everything I put down on the web is probably monitored by AOA.. I did not want to risk it. It is not hard to figure out who docbill from UNECOM is. Considering I am the only one here, that is called Bill and is from Canada and has a graduate degree and have a beef. 1+1+1+1 they will figure it out.

 

[Taus]

I was going to write something here.. but since everything I put down on the web is probably monitored by AOA.. I did not want to risk it. It is not hard to figure out who docbill from UNECOM is. Considering I am the only one here, that is called Bill and is from Canada and has a graduate degree and have a beef. 1+1+1+1 they will figure it out.

1. what are they really gonna do to you?

2. if they monitored this site then they would be pretty clear on student opinion of them....which doesn't appear to be the case

 

[doctor dork]

1. what are they really gonna do to you?

2. if they monitored this site then they would be pretty clear on student opinion of them....which doesn't appear to be the case

You would probably be surprised at who monitors this site - I for one know that my school has people checking on this site periodically. If schools do it we can only assume someone within the AOA does it as well.

 

[Taus]

You would probably be surprised at who monitors this site - I for one know that my school has people checking on this site periodically. If schools do it we can only assume someone within the AOA does it as well.

interesting....you'd think the AOA would have a better understanding of how students felt about them overall and the issues that we deem pressing....I guess it could be a positive thing if they see the constant, candid, non-sugar-coated opinions on here....