An Open Letter to Pre-Med ER Volunteers (from a Non-Trad Pre-Med ER Tech)

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You guys are focusing WAY too much on pleasing the nurses. You aren't volunteering to make some nurse happy. If you want to get a good letter of rec for nursing school then by all means.....but if you want to get into medicine then you better get this notion of nurse appeasement out of your head.

What are you talking about? Are you saying that try to make other people happy won't get into medical school? The whole point of what I said is that the nurses might report back to the attending if you annoy them. MIGHT. Anything beyond that, including what you're saying, is speculation.

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You guys are focusing WAY too much on pleasing the nurses. You aren't volunteering to make some nurse happy. If you want to get a good letter of rec for nursing school then by all means.....but if you want to get into medicine then you better get this notion of nurse appeasement out of your head.

Getting along with others seems like a fairly useful life skill to have.

Think of it as practice for residency interviews.
 
We're volunteering our time to work for free. You tell us what to do.
 
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We're volunteering our time to work for free. You tell us what to do.

Honestly, it's more like you volunteer your time for free (Thank You for doing this!). The RNs used to let you do "a lot" that they felt was safe (v/s, pt transport, etc.) and then got into a lot of trouble with Administration because some guy sued a hospital a thousand miles away when some volunteer neglected to alert the RN to a problem immediately and, as a result, some pt either died, was harmed, or was in too much pain for too long a period of time. Now, the RNs don't know what you are allowed to do. (The answer is basically "nothing" with the possible exception of filing paperwork, but even that carries risks due to HIPAA, so it's probably making packets of empty forms for triage and other areas.) The result, then, is that the staff may be willing to stick their necks out on the line a bit for someone they like. If you are a hard worker, trustworthy, reliable, etc., they are more likely to take some risks and let you do things that are more in the "grey area" for a volunteer (e.g., actual patient interaction). As much as I think it's B.S. that we require you to "prove" to us that you can be reliable enough to get a patient a cup of water or adjust a bed for a patient, there are some contraindications to those things that require you to be trustworthy enough to ask the RN first, etc.
 
I agree with music2doc. Furthermore, you never know who your interviewers are...I actually had an RN interview me once...talking about all the scut work I did made her happy...lolz.

As mauberly said, it's useful to know how to interact with people. (I know, you will all assume you are all socially adept, but honestly, not all of the volunteers I've met are.) I just get frustrated with the volunteers that shadow doctors. And, the ones that are simply there for medical tourism. NEITHER of those really embrace the spirit of volunteering-you aren't positively contributing to the cause. It's okay to do it when you've done something, but just to walk and mope around in the ED when we could use your help....that's just ridiculous.

Personally, I wrote a lot about my volunteer experiences. It didn't stop me from getting my app through for interviews...I think it might make more sense to do it just because volunteering has become (unfortunately) just a clock-in, clock-out activity, and if you can have some sort of meaningful reflection, I think that would help one stand out.
 
What are you talking about? Are you saying that try to make other people happy won't get into medical school? The whole point of what I said is that the nurses might report back to the attending if you annoy them. MIGHT. Anything beyond that, including what you're saying, is speculation.

If your objective in volunteering is to focus on not annoying people then you're way off base and you will carry nothing valuable from the experience into the application. Almost everything on SDN is speculation.
 
If your objective in volunteering is to focus on not annoying people then you're way off base and you will carry nothing valuable from the experience into the application. Almost everything on SDN is speculation.

Most of SDN is one of three things:

1) Speculation without evidence
2) Someone's experience
3) Data with analysis

This thread began as #2; it has devolved to largely being #1.

I do agree that the nursing staff have no direct influence on your application; however, they can certainly make your time there pleasant or unpleasant and they can certainly influence the medical staff's opinion of you. It is not unlike how things will likely be as a medical student or resident. Sure, the charge nurse of the ED does not evaluate you on your EM rotation; however, if she keeps having problems with you (including having to deal with staff complaints repeatedly), you can bet she (or, more likely, the clinical manager, nursing director, or medical director) is going to let your supervising attending or resident know what a problem you have been and I would bet that repeated complaints like that could have a substantial impact on your clinical grades. Further, as a physician, your nurses will have a great deal of influence when it comes to things like how often you are called in on any given night. There are many stories of a**hole physicians who get calls for the most mundane technicalities by the night shift when the same staff would have handled the slightly out-of-range v/s or pain themselves and not awoken the resident/attending unnecessarily otherwise. (By these, I am not referring to cases where something is clearly out of range, but to the more "yes, technically a call could be made for clarification, but the doc clearly would not want a call for a patient whose pain was only a 7/10 because I was a dumba** and awoke the sleeping patient to ask her pain" or a BP that is slightly above on one reading but then normal when re-checked. Basically, there are grey area cases where a nurse can sometimes avoid having to wake the attending. If you tick them off, they may take out their frustration on you whenever they get the chance.)
 
I think this whole thread has good points but it's also pretty negative. When I was going through my EMT class I did a shift in the ER and was busy the whole time and didn't sit down once. With that being said I knew what I had to do and had a scope of practice (although extremely small) which I do not have as a volunteer.

My whole point in saying this is that although I had "set duties" and had a check list of skills that I needed to practice that my proctor signed off on, I didn't think once that anything was beneath me. You want me to stock the store room, answer phones, or even God forbid wipe a poor sick persons butt (sarcasm on the God forbid part) I will and did do it. Am i selling myself short? Some people say so but i find it to be very humbling. I'm not okay with doing a persons job while they sit around on Facebook getting paid, but I'm also not going to act high and mighty and treat nurses with a superior attitude based on the POSSIBILITY of me being a doctor someday, it doesn't seem like a very healthy start to anything. I haven't earned the right to touch patients in a medical way yet, but I can grow by humbling myself and learning to work with a team even if that means doing "boring" work.

And as far as not making much of a difference, I remember during my EMT shift there was a woman who was on a backboard fully stabilized after a car crash. She wasn't bleeding and it seemed to be more of a precaution on the Paramedics end, but nevertheless I could tell she was terrified. The ER was very busy, and in the craziness she was left in the hallway alone and strapped down to the backboard for a very, very long time. Like i said, she was all alone waiting for her x rays and she was sobbing as people were walking past her and she was being ignored (for lack of a better word). The lowly, don't-make-a-difference volunteer that I am got the OK from the nurse and placed a sheet over her body so she wasn't so exposed (she was wearing short shorts and a spaghetti strap). I gave her some tissues and waited with her, I also asked if there was anyone she wanted me to call.

Now sure in the big bad ER I didn't make much of a difference, but I did notice that while i sat with her she eventually stopped sobbing and even gave a little watery smile when the time came for her to be taken to get the x rays and I said goodbye.

Everyone's experience is different and I haven't started my ER rotation at this hospital yet, but volunteers can act as an emotional support for patients and help that way as well. It bugs me for people to discredit the things they do, no matter how small they are.
 
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I just realize that I shifted perspective from EMT student to volunteer in my story, but the point is still made I hope. I am a volunteer now so that's why I said volunteer.
 
Most of SDN is one of three things:

1) Speculation without evidence
2) Someone's experience
3) Data with analysis

This thread began as #2; it has devolved to largely being #1.

I do agree that the nursing staff have no direct influence on your application; however, they can certainly make your time there pleasant or unpleasant and they can certainly influence the medical staff's opinion of you. It is not unlike how things will likely be as a medical student or resident. Sure, the charge nurse of the ED does not evaluate you on your EM rotation; however, if she keeps having problems with you (including having to deal with staff complaints repeatedly), you can bet she (or, more likely, the clinical manager, nursing director, or medical director) is going to let your supervising attending or resident know what a problem you have been and I would bet that repeated complaints like that could have a substantial impact on your clinical grades. Further, as a physician, your nurses will have a great deal of influence when it comes to things like how often you are called in on any given night. There are many stories of a**hole physicians who get calls for the most mundane technicalities by the night shift when the same staff would have handled the slightly out-of-range v/s or pain themselves and not awoken the resident/attending unnecessarily otherwise. (By these, I am not referring to cases where something is clearly out of range, but to the more "yes, technically a call could be made for clarification, but the doc clearly would not want a call for a patient whose pain was only a 7/10 because I was a dumba** and awoke the sleeping patient to ask her pain" or a BP that is slightly above on one reading but then normal when re-checked. Basically, there are grey area cases where a nurse can sometimes avoid having to wake the attending. If you tick them off, they may take out their frustration on you whenever they get the chance.)

I am operting within the realm of #2. I work full time in the ER as a tech, I was an ER volunteer, an ER scribe, and I have completed the application cycle with multiple interviews and acceptances. You make several good points but you are missing what I'm saying. I never said you should be a jerk to nurses or disrespect them in any way. But you also shouldn't feel like you have to bend over backwards to avoid annoying them. You kind of went off on a tangent there but I get what you're saying. I just think the ER operates a little differently than you realize that's all.
 
I am operting within the realm of #2. I work full time in the ER as a tech, I was an ER volunteer, an ER scribe, and I have completed the application cycle with multiple interviews and acceptances. You make several good points but you are missing what I'm saying. I never said you should be a jerk to nurses or disrespect them in any way. But you also shouldn't feel like you have to bend over backwards to avoid annoying them. You kind of went off on a tangent there but I get what you're saying. I just think the ER operates a little differently than you realize that's all.

Nah, I'm pretty sure he got it right. Just keep in mind that your experience is just one of many. If you don't want to help out the nurses, fine! Don't! But if there's one thing I've learned, it's that nothing travels faster than gossip about lazy and stupid people. You can ensure that people don't think you're lazy by asking if nurses need help and following through. Making sure people don't think you're stupid? You're on your own.
 
Nah, I'm pretty sure he got it right. Just keep in mind that your experience is just one of many. If you don't want to help out the nurses, fine! Don't! But if there's one thing I've learned, it's that nothing travels faster than gossip about lazy and stupid people. You can ensure that people don't think you're lazy by asking if nurses need help and following through. Making sure people don't think you're stupid? You're on your own.

:confused: Huh? Your tone is a little condescending. I got hired as a tech because of the work I did as a volunteer so I guess they didn't think I was lazy or stupid. I guess the ADCOMs didn't think I was lazy or stupid either :thumbup:.

Ya I totally agree with you and yes I think he got it right too!!!! As a volunteer you should help nurses and you should ask them if you can help and do whatever you can to help! After all, that's why you're there. I'm just saying that you don't have to feel like you're walking on egg shells all the time around the nursing staff. They respect and appreciate the fact that you're there and I can assure you that you will not annoy the nursing staff by asking if there is anything you can do at all. It seems like a lot of people on this thread feel paranoid about the annoyance issue and so I just wanted to address it from my perspective because I have a ton of experience on the subject.

So ya, don't be lazy or stupid.
 
I agree with music2doc. Furthermore, you never know who your interviewers are...I actually had an RN interview me once...talking about all the scut work I did made her happy...lolz.

As mauberly said, it's useful to know how to interact with people. (I know, you will all assume you are all socially adept, but honestly, not all of the volunteers I've met are.) I just get frustrated with the volunteers that shadow doctors. And, the ones that are simply there for medical tourism. NEITHER of those really embrace the spirit of volunteering-you aren't positively contributing to the cause. It's okay to do it when you've done something, but just to walk and mope around in the ED when we could use your help....that's just ridiculous.

Personally, I wrote a lot about my volunteer experiences. It didn't stop me from getting my app through for interviews...I think it might make more sense to do it just because volunteering has become (unfortunately) just a clock-in, clock-out activity, and if you can have some sort of meaningful reflection, I think that would help one stand out.

Life is full of mystery. You never know if the person interviewing you will be someone who is from ER you volunteered at! And who knows, maybe you might end up sitting next to the school's dean at a bar! The likelihood of meeting someone from volunteering at such a high point of your admissions process is unlikely.

With way that volunteering is structured now, it is possible to have someone who really holds up ER like music2doc as well as someone who doesn't like doing what is asked and blows off the experience here or there. Granted that the latter didn't get in trouble, ADCOMs will have no idea how either of the applicants performed granted there were no LORs written for either applicant. Both experiences can be verified. Nothing is to say that the pre-med blowing off experience can BS their experience extremely well in their PS and at interview (generally pre-meds know what volunteering entails, and how to spin it). Therefore with way that system is now, given the unlikelihood of having someone from your experience at your interview, your performance in volunteer setting is highly unlikely to effect your chances of admissions, whether you were the most loved or most hated person in the ER. :(
 
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Life is full of mystery. You never know if the person interviewing you will be someone who is from ER you volunteered at! And who knows, maybe you might end up sitting next to the school's dean at a bar! The likelihood of meeting someone from volunteering at such a high point of your admissions process is unlikely.

With way that volunteering is structured now, it is possible to have someone who really holds up ER like music2doc as well as someone who doesn't like doing what is asked and blows off the experience here or there. Granted that the latter didn't get in trouble, ADCOMs will have no idea how either of the applicants performed granted there were no LORs written for either applicant. Both experiences can be verified. Nothing is to say that the pre-med blowing off experience can BS their experience extremely well in their PS and at interview (generally pre-meds know what volunteering entails, and how to spin it). Therefore with way that system is now, given the unlikelihood of having someone from your experience at your interview, your performance in volunteer setting is highly unlikely to effect your chances of admissions, whether you were the most loved or most hated person in the ER. :(

Sad, but true. I knew that the value my experiences as a volunteer in the ER would not count for much because so many applicants have volunteer experience. This is why I would urge premeds to try to get PAID experience before applying. It is verifiable and of much greater quality experience.
 
Sad, but true. I knew that the value my experiences as a volunteer in the ER would not count for much because so many applicants have volunteer experience. This is why I would urge premeds to try to get PAID experience before applying. It is verifiable and of much greater quality experience.

Sorry flawed logic here. The sad fact that is you still need to accompany any paid work with VOLUNTEERING to show you are altruistic to ADCOMs. Any thread asking about only having paid clinical will usually get responses like "make sure you do some non-clinical volunteering". Even though this may be less demeaning for the pre-med, you must wonder what kind of attitude the pre-med would havw toward activity if they didn't want to do it in first place. But once again, it is simply verified if even that, and they can either be an amazing help or a liability to the organization.
 
Sorry flawed logic here. The sad fact that is you still need to accompany any paid work with VOLUNTEERING to show you are altruistic to ADCOMs. Any thread asking about only having paid clinical will usually get responses like "make sure you do some non-clinical volunteering". Even though this may be less demeaning for the pre-med, you must wonder what kind of attitude the pre-med would havw toward activity if they didn't want to do it in first place. But once again, it is simply verified if even that, and they can either be an amazing help or a liability to the organization.

Agreed. My only concern is that premeds get hung up on racking up hundreds and hundreds of volunteering hours. It's just not necessary in the end. It's about quality, not quantity.
 
Since the sarcastic tone was previously missed, let me put the OP more simply:

Based on the observations of myself and some of my colleagues, if you volunteer in the ED and would like to have the best possible experience, I would suggest that you:

1) Be proactive in seeking out ways you can help
2) Let us know you are there, what your name is, what you're interested in doing, etc.
3) When asked to do something, do your best to do it, even if it seems boring -- we'll appreciate that and may be able to return the favor later
4) Keep in mind the (other) golden rule: He who has the gold makes the rules. For better or for worse, the perception the staff holds of you is likely to influence what you are offered. Things like reliability, work ethic, etc. influence their perception of you. This is not something any one person has control over, but I have seen it work for and against some of our volunteers. I don't mean to discourage, but be aware of that.


This thread was not meant to be a war of positions and I'm sorry it devolved into that. It was meant as a simple word of warning to other pre-meds.


Lol. I responded to the original post and you were a giant dick. I have not read a single post since the necro bump, but after seeing your edit, I have even less respect for you after your edit and subsequent change of the entire message of your thread.
 
Lol. I responded to the original post and you were a giant dick. I have not read a single post since the necro bump, but after seeing your edit, I have even less respect for you after your edit and subsequent change of the entire message of your thread.

Sorry you feel that way. The edit was to better clarify what I wanted people to get from my message. The original post had a lot of sarcasm and was not meant to be taken so seriously. Frankly, though, your "respect" is of no importance to me, sorry. Adios, amigo.
 
I'll go ahead and weigh in on this. I have been in Emergency Medicine for the past 12 years, ranging from being a Tech in the ED to being a Paramedic in Iraq (think more in terms of PA scope of care as international medicine changes a lot of the rules and it will help explain what I learned and was responsible for). In terms of respecting nurses, YES you must respect nurses. The old adage of a doctor being a lone cowboy is gone, we all have to work together as a team and if you do not seem like a team player in interviews they will sense this. I know that some nurses can be irritating as heck, but don't give into this. Instead, continue being a professional (even as a volunteer) with a teachable attitude. If you are there to learn and exhibit this, your volunteering time or later on clinical rotations will go much, much more smoothly. The best rotations that I had in the ED as an EMT or a Paramedic student were because I was there to learn and did as much as I could to help the staff. Due to this fact, my clinical rotations opened doors to observing surgery (in the OR, fully scrubbed in, etc) and also yielded high marks. (as a Paramedic student I spent something like 250 hours in rotations before the ambulance time). As a Tech, I was highly respected by nurses and physicians alike (many of which remember me by name and are happy to see me, supportive of my decision to apply, etc) because I respected them and did my best to operate as a team player.

This cannot be overemphasized enough, if you are arrogant, spiteful, etc. expect everyone[ including Attendings to take note. If you show up, even as a volunteer, with a smile on your face, ready to get down to work, and do anything asked (yes even as a physician some jobs are menial tasks) then you will be respected and will enjoy your experience much more. Plus, your letter from that Attending that you're seeking will come much easier, prove stronger, etc because you exhibited team player attributes and showed interest in learning no matter who was teaching.
 
This is a wake up call. There is a new volunteer in my unit doing a supreme job of stocking the linens neatly. I really need to step up my game, this is making me look bad.
 
I think we all agree that being respectful to the ER staff (to include nurses) is a good idea. If I could do it all over again then I would take the same route and volunteer in the ER only because my volunteer experience helped me get a position as a tech (which is actually a pretty competetive position) and talking about my experiences as a tech helped quite a bit in my interviews.

I never asked for a letter of rec for volunteering because I thought it would be a little generic and plus I only had about 100 hours of logged in. Again, I put more focus on the mcat and my gpa which is what I would recommend anyway.
 
True Story.

I was volunteering at a hospital. The following "volunteer" program is known to be really good.

Me and another volunteer are taking the elevator and a young doctor walked in.

He asked if we were volunteers and we said yes.

He asked how we liked it. I stayed quite.

The other volunteer started with the usual PC answer "its not bad , we get to do blah blah blah".

The doctor responds with "I did some volunteering at a hospital too and it was just bs".

I laughed and agreed with him.

Doctor exited on the next floor.
 
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True Story.

I was volunteering at a hospital. The following "volunteer" program is known to be really good.

Me and another volunteer are taking the elevator and a young doctor walked in.

He asked if we were volunteers and we said yes.

He asked how we liked it. I stayed quite.

The other volunteer started with the usual PC answer "its not bad , we get to do blah blah blah".

The doctor responds with "I did some volunteering at a hospital too and it was just bs".

I laughed and agreed with him.

Doctor exited on the next floor.

Except notice that it was a doctor that said it. If anything that stresses the importance of volunteering.
 
Except notice that it was a doctor that said it. If anything that stresses the importance of volunteering.

yeah. but after 100 hrs. there is nothing much you can learn. its pretty much the same. once you learn the hospital setting and handle 1-2 unique situations with patients you follow the same protocol.

my advice would be after 100 hrs of "volunteering" its better to move on to scribe position. I wish i would have done that .
 
I do agree with you on some points. At this point I'm sticking with the volunteering because I know several people that scribe and are techs and their work runs them through the wringer with their schedule. I see them essentially suffer when it comes time for tests because they worked a 3 day weekend 12 hour days and didn't study, and then are called in constantly during the week. It's not the same for everyone but it seems like a risky situation.

And it also depends on the volunteering, 100 hours on the same unit would get mundane but 100 hours cycling through all the departments where you feed, bathe and ambulate patients as well as take vitals and observe traumas/surgeries/births is very different.
 
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I do agree with you on some points. At this point I'm sticking with the volunteering because I know several people that scribe and are techs and their work runs them through the wringer with their schedule. I see them essentially suffer when it comes time for tests because they worked a 3 day weekend 12 hour days and didn't study, and then are called in constantly during the week. It's not the same for everyone but it seems like a risky situation.

And it also depends on the volunteering, 100 hours on the same unit would get mundane but 100 hours cycling through all the departments where you feed, bathe and ambulate patients as well as take vitals and observe traumas/surgeries/births is very different.


Sounds like a CCE program I have heard about in SoCal. I have heard mix reviews

If you don't mind me asking which hospital are you at? You don't have to tell me.
 
I don't follow.

As in the doctor himself volunteered, he then got into medical school. Of course there's so many different variables but it emphasized the importance of volunteering (long shot connection but I'm making it). If say the doctor said "volunteering? Psh I never did that" then that would be so much different.
 
As in the doctor himself volunteered, he then got into medical school. Of course there's so many different variables but it emphasized the importance of volunteering (long shot connection but I'm making it). If say the doctor said "volunteering? Psh I never did that" then that would be so much different.

Oh, I see. I only saw it as a doctor admitting that volunteering was another (stupid) hoop to jump through.
 
Oh, I see. I only saw it as a doctor admitting that volunteering was another (stupid) hoop to jump through.

Which it was because thats what he was admitting, but he also did do it and got to his goal. I have a tendency to over analyze everything.
 
As in the doctor himself volunteered, he then got into medical school. Of course there's so many different variables but it emphasized the importance of volunteering (long shot connection but I'm making it). If say the doctor said "volunteering? Psh I never did that" then that would be so much different.

Allow me to bump this thread just to say:

"Volunteering? Psh, I never did any of that."

Seriously. I shadowed 3 physicians and worked summer jobs. I did minor, unpublished research for one summer. No, I didn't have "stellar" grades, but they were good enough to be competitive. My not having volunteered didn't even come up during my interviews.

Make of that what you will (n=1), but it seems to me volunteering isn't THAT important to your application as other variables are.
 
Allow me to bump this thread just to say:

"Volunteering? Psh, I never did any of that."

Seriously. I shadowed 3 physicians and worked summer jobs. I did minor, unpublished research for one summer. No, I didn't have "stellar" grades, but they were good enough to be competitive. My not having volunteered didn't even come up during my interviews.

Make of that what you will (n=1), but it seems to me volunteering isn't THAT important to your application as other variables are.

Well to be honest that's nice to know, I personally wanted to volunteer at a hospital long before I wanted to be a doctor, but it's nice to know some people did get in without doing that. :) Perhaps you had other clinical exposure?
 
Well to be honest that's nice to know, I personally wanted to volunteer at a hospital long before I wanted to be a doctor, but it's nice to know some people did get in without doing that. :) Perhaps you had other clinical exposure?


A lot depends on the school as well.
 
Allow me to bump this thread just to say:

"Volunteering? Psh, I never did any of that."

Seriously. I shadowed 3 physicians and worked summer jobs. I did minor, unpublished research for one summer. No, I didn't have "stellar" grades, but they were good enough to be competitive. My not having volunteered didn't even come up during my interviews.

Make of that what you will (n=1), but it seems to me volunteering isn't THAT important to your application as other variables are.

You're my hero. :thumbup:
 
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