Anesthesia for CCM?

[PattiePie]

Right now I'm really interested in pursuing a career in CCM, but I've been increasingly concerned with the CRNA vs MD-A dogfight. I know this is talked about virtually daily on this thread, but I have a few quick questions that I couldn't find addressed from searching:

1. Why in the hell is anesthesia residency FOUR years long if nurses can successfully complete the necessary training in two? I read a few arguments on allnurses.com essentially stating that modern anesthesia doesn't require the extensive training anesthesiologists undergo to deliver safe and effectively. Considering the scope of practice for CRNA's is identical to that of MD-A's, I don't really see why anesthesia residents could not be trained in a shorter period? From what I understand, most states allow CRNA's to practice without medical supervision. Doctors are so oddly traditional when it comes to this stuff. Will medical education ever evolve to accommodate the times?

Just had to put that out there. Question 2 is my main concern, though. I know it technically belongs in the CCM thread but I thought most of you could address it considering the overlap.

2. Many of the physician's that I shadowed have tried to deter me away from anesthesia since they view it as a "dying field" that will eventually be overtaken by CRNA's. That doesn't bother me so much since I'm not really interested in working in the OR. My ultimate goal is to be a CCM doctor in an ICU. I loved working with airways as an EMT, so I just thought gas would be a better route for me to enter instead of IM or surgery. I do realize, however, that advanced practice nurses also are stationed in the ICU. How do the scope of practice of APN's in the ICU compare to that of CCM trained MD/DO's? Can they do the same procedures?


Didn't want to offend anyone by this post, by the way. I haven't even started my MS1 yet, so I am not nearly as knowledgable as any of you. I'm just trying to synthesize everything I've read together.

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[woo]

Go away, and come back in 3 years if you are still considering this? It will change.

 

[hookgrip]

2. Many of the physician's that I shadowed have tried to deter me away from anesthesia since they view it as a "dying field" that will eventually be overtaken by CRNA's. That doesn't bother me so much since I'm not really interested in working in the OR. My ultimate goal is to be a CCM doctor in an ICU. I loved working with airways as an EMT, so I just thought gas would be a better route for me to enter instead of IM or surgery. I do realize, however, that advanced practice nurses also are stationed in the ICU. How do the scope of practice of APN's in the ICU compare to that of CCM trained MD/DO's? Can they do the same procedures?

There are APRNs in every specialty.

 

[deleted171991]

Go away, and come back in 3 years if you are still considering this? It will change.

Agree. You might not even want CCM anymore in 3 years, @PattiePie.

 

[Random Anesthesiologist]

Right now I'm really interested in pursuing a career in CCM, but I've been increasingly concerned with the CRNA vs MD-A dogfight. I know this is talked about virtually daily on this thread, but I have a few quick questions that I couldn't find addressed from searching:

1. Why in the hell is anesthesia residency FOUR years long if nurses can successfully complete the necessary training in two? I read a few arguments on allnurses.com essentially stating that modern anesthesia doesn't require the extensive training anesthesiologists undergo to deliver safe and effectively. Considering the scope of practice for CRNA's is identical to that of MD-A's, I don't really see why anesthesia residents could not be trained in a shorter period? From what I understand, most states allow CRNA's to practice without medical supervision. Doctors are so oddly traditional when it comes to this stuff. Will medical education ever evolve to accommodate the times?

Just had to put that out there. Question 2 is my main concern, though. I know it technically belongs in the CCM thread but I thought most of you could address it considering the overlap.

2. Many of the physician's that I shadowed have tried to deter me away from anesthesia since they view it as a "dying field" that will eventually be overtaken by CRNA's. That doesn't bother me so much since I'm not really interested in working in the OR. My ultimate goal is to be a CCM doctor in an ICU. I loved working with airways as an EMT, so I just thought gas would be a better route for me to enter instead of IM or surgery. I do realize, however, that advanced practice nurses also are stationed in the ICU. How do the scope of practice of APN's in the ICU compare to that of CCM trained MD/DO's? Can they do the same procedures?


Didn't want to offend anyone by this post, by the way. I haven't even started my MS1 yet, so I am not nearly as knowledgable as any of you. I'm just trying to synthesize everything I've read together.

What is an MD-A?

 

[Laryngophed]

What is an MD-A?

Asking the tough questions.

 

[Random Anesthesiologist]

Asking the tough questions.

Maybe they just don't know, but it's funny to see someone say they don't want to offend then call us MD-As.

 

[bashwell]

Right now I'm really interested in pursuing a career in CCM, but I've been increasingly concerned with the CRNA vs MD-A dogfight. I know this is talked about virtually daily on this thread, but I have a few quick questions that I couldn't find addressed from searching:

1. Why in the hell is anesthesia residency FOUR years long if nurses can successfully complete the necessary training in two? I read a few arguments on allnurses.com essentially stating that modern anesthesia doesn't require the extensive training anesthesiologists undergo to deliver safe and effectively. Considering the scope of practice for CRNA's is identical to that of MD-A's, I don't really see why anesthesia residents could not be trained in a shorter period? From what I understand, most states allow CRNA's to practice without medical supervision. Doctors are so oddly traditional when it comes to this stuff. Will medical education ever evolve to accommodate the times?

Just had to put that out there. Question 2 is my main concern, though. I know it technically belongs in the CCM thread but I thought most of you could address it considering the overlap.

2. Many of the physician's that I shadowed have tried to deter me away from anesthesia since they view it as a "dying field" that will eventually be overtaken by CRNA's. That doesn't bother me so much since I'm not really interested in working in the OR. My ultimate goal is to be a CCM doctor in an ICU. I loved working with airways as an EMT, so I just thought gas would be a better route for me to enter instead of IM or surgery. I do realize, however, that advanced practice nurses also are stationed in the ICU. How do the scope of practice of APN's in the ICU compare to that of CCM trained MD/DO's? Can they do the same procedures?

Didn't want to offend anyone by this post, by the way. I haven't even started my MS1 yet, so I am not nearly as knowledgable as any of you. I'm just trying to synthesize everything I've read together.

Assuming you're not trolling, and that you're truly a medical student:

1) It sounds like you've been reading too much from allnurses.com if you honestly think CRNA training is equivalent to completing an anesthesiology residency. That seems to be your hidden presumption behind your question.

Also, why bother to compare CRNAs with physicians in the first place? What we as physicians should or shouldn't do or how we can improve our medical and residency education is an entirely separate issue from what CRNAs do or don't do with their education. In short, isn't your real question basically, why is anesthesia residency 4 years long and not shorter? If so, then the rest of the stuff about CRNAs is superfluous to your real question.

2) I'm not sure why you're interested in "the scope of practice of APN's in the ICU" if your "ultimate goal is to be a CCM doctor in an ICU".

Regardless "the scope of practice of APN's in the ICU compare[d] to that of CCM trained MD/DO's" is probably best answered by someone who has been an APN in the ICU then gone to medical school and become a critical care physician. I'm not sure if there are many former ICU nurses who have now become ICU physicians here on SDN, but if there are then they'd probably be the ones best suited to answer your question about comparing the two.

Finally it's probably best to ask this question on the critical care forum, not necessarily here on the anesthesiology forum.

 

[Psai]

Right now I'm really interested in pursuing a career in CCM, but I've been increasingly concerned with the CRNA vs MD-A dogfight. I know this is talked about virtually daily on this thread, but I have a few quick questions that I couldn't find addressed from searching:

1. Why in the hell is anesthesia residency FOUR years long if nurses can successfully complete the necessary training in two? I read a few arguments on allnurses.com essentially stating that modern anesthesia doesn't require the extensive training anesthesiologists undergo to deliver safe and effectively. Considering the scope of practice for CRNA's is identical to that of MD-A's, I don't really see why anesthesia residents could not be trained in a shorter period? From what I understand, most states allow CRNA's to practice without medical supervision. Doctors are so oddly traditional when it comes to this stuff. Will medical education ever evolve to accommodate the times?

Just had to put that out there. Question 2 is my main concern, though. I know it technically belongs in the CCM thread but I thought most of you could address it considering the overlap.

2. Many of the physician's that I shadowed have tried to deter me away from anesthesia since they view it as a "dying field" that will eventually be overtaken by CRNA's. That doesn't bother me so much since I'm not really interested in working in the OR. My ultimate goal is to be a CCM doctor in an ICU. I loved working with airways as an EMT, so I just thought gas would be a better route for me to enter instead of IM or surgery. I do realize, however, that advanced practice nurses also are stationed in the ICU. How do the scope of practice of APN's in the ICU compare to that of CCM trained MD/DO's? Can they do the same procedures?


Didn't want to offend anyone by this post, by the way. I haven't even started my MS1 yet, so I am not nearly as knowledgable as any of you. I'm just trying to synthesize everything I've read together.

Because anesthesiologists and crnas aren't even close to the same no matter how many times nurses try to claim equivalence. It's like trying to compare your neighborhood basketball court with the nba. Yeah they can both put a ball in the hoop but no one's going to pay your buddy phil 30 million a year to do it. The buck always stops with the doctor.

Typical nurse thinking that scope of practice is equivalent to the procedures you can do. Being a doctor is primarily about knowing how to think. Nurses have a lot of trouble with this fact for some reason.