Another Adcom, ask me (almost) anything

[hushcom]

How do you view first generation college student? Does it affect in any way? Also how would adcoms know that a student is first generation college student unless it was mentioned in PS?

You report the highest educational attainment of your parents in AMCAS, so I can look at that and infer whether you are first generation (which is generally looked at as a positive). I cannot be 100% sure, however, unless you do spell it out in the PS or somewhere in a secondary essay.

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[hushcom]

Do med schools look down on religions activities?

You will have to be more specific.

 

[hushcom]

First off thanks for helping us out here! I'm about half way through reading this thread but figured I would throw my question out there in the meantime.

Graduated with a BBA. Low GPA zero science classes involved.
Worked for my family's business (85 employees and 8 locations) from the age of 16 with the intent of taking over, started to do so just before I graduated. Never really wanted to but felt that someone had to. Decided that I wanted to do medicine for a series of very interesting reasons I wont waste your time with.

Now:
cgpa=3.08
Bcpmgpa=3.72
Grades after graduation are all pre reqs plus a few upper division sciences. All the science classes I've ever taken started here.
MCAT=29 took at the same time as 15 hrs of course work so that I could get my health professions packet info started early and possibly apply to SMPs
Retake early June I'm aiming for a 33, though of course this is just speculation.
500+ shadowing hours. I know its overkill, but I was learning so much about the behind the scenes of medicine and honestly really enjoyed it. I'm aware questions will be asked about this
LOR from physics 2 professor, histology professor, and doctor I shadowed.
Only about 20 hrs volunteering. Habitat and a homeless clinic.
No research experience.
Still working at the company until the day I leave for school.
Texas resident

My question for you is: do I apply for MD programs in Texas this cycle? Will an SMP appreciably help my chances? I plan on doing one for my gap year to stay fresh anyhow. I realize my username is horrible...

You might get in with this package, but it's a tough sell because your application is fairly unbalanced. Recent academic performance in science courses is good, but it does not erase your prior record. 500+ hours of shadowing is good if you have some insight, but your service is light, although perhaps somewhat mitigated by your job demands. A 29 MCAT is okay, raising it would help.

The highly competitive Texas schools are unlikely to take the bait for academic reasons, whereas the less competitive ones may see you as unlikely to fulfill their mission. Perhaps you can hit the sweet spot in between.

In any case, doing well in an SMP, raising your MCAT, and getting some quality service in (even at the expense of yet more shadowing) will help your odds a great deal.

 

[NorthernMav]

Why do ADCOMs insist on viewing a student's undergraduate GPA as the linchpin of their entire application; despite the fact that they may have had 50 credits of straight 4.0 post-bacc work, 4.0 master's (SMP or other), and saved the planet from invading Non-biological Extraterrestrials. Do ADCOMS not change and mature like other humans do? Or is it simply about keeping up the statistics of the institution that you are representing?

 

[pbrocks15]

There is no such thing as an unknown college in this country. Are admissions to your school very competitive?

At your level research is all about learning the process. Sometimes the results you obtain are simply that what you had been doing didn't work.

Admissions to my school is not competitve, it accepts about 45-50% of applicants but I had to stay home and commute due to working in the family business. It would b very financially diffucult to replace what I do in the business. Does this change anything?

 

[pDeluxe]

You report the highest educational attainment of your parents in AMCAS, so I can look at that and infer whether you are first generation (which is generally looked at as a positive). I cannot be 100% sure, however, unless you do spell it out in the PS or somewhere in a secondary essay.

Just to verify, do you consider "first gen college student" as first to attend for their 4 year Bachelors?

I ask because at one interview (open file) I was talking about being a first generation college student (I also had stated this in my PS), and my interviewer stopped me and said something the along the lines of "from your primary app, I thought your father attended X college?" I explained that he did attend a "college" but it was really a vocational school where he got an Associates, and that I considered myself first generation because I was the first/only one who had my Bachelors. She didn't argue or correct me on that point, but I wonder if she just thought I was lying or trying to game the system... I've always been under the impression that first gen college student refers to someone attending a four-year institution, instead of a trade school.

Thanks

 

[Goro]

With 5000 applicants for 100 seats, what do you expect? Roll a dice? Pull names out of a hat? You have to start somewhere.

That said, there are schools that favor the last 2-3 years of UG work, and plenty of schools that reward reinvention (U UT, Tulane, NYMC, all DO schools are a few examples). For every Adcom who might say "you should have gotten it right the first time, all the way" there are others who like underdogs and redemption, and realize that the applicant of now is not the person from seven years ago.

Why do ADCOMs insist on viewing a student's undergraduate GPA as the linchpin of their entire application; despite the fact that they may have had 50 credits of straight 4.0 post-bacc work, 4.0 master's (SMP or other), and saved the planet from invading Non-biological Extraterrestrials. Do ADCOMS not change and mature like other humans do? Or is it simply about keeping up the statistics of the institution that you are representing?

 

[487806]

Why do ADCOMs insist on viewing a student's undergraduate GPA as the linchpin of their entire application; despite the fact that they may have had 50 credits of straight 4.0 post-bacc work, 4.0 master's (SMP or other), and saved the planet from invading Non-biological Extraterrestrials. Do ADCOMS not change and mature like other humans do? Or is it simply about keeping up the statistics of the institution that you are representing?

Gotta be some way to weed 'em out

 

[NorthernMav]

For every Adcom who might say "you should have gotten it right the first time, all the way" there are others who like underdogs and redemption, and realize that the applicant of now is not the person from seven years ago.

And I am living proof of that!

I still get a little acute onset rage when I think about what I had to go through to get accepted. Nothing illegal of course.

 

[Jr MD]

I am a practicing physician who serves on the admissions committee of an allopathic medical school in the United States. I am also not new to SDN, having seen the cast of characters evolve here over a number of years. Some recent threads in the pre-allo forum have compelled me to start this one. While I am not a longstanding and venerated member of the committee, perhaps someone will find my two cents useful and/or interesting.

So please, have at it.

Hello and thanks soooo much for doing this! You've helped so many people.

A little bit about my situation

I am a senior about to graduate with a good GPA (3.6+) and good letters of recs and ecs. I am scheduled to take my MCAT in July (I'm retaking it) but I have attempted to apply last year but didn't get around to it due to my bad MCAT score. My application is ready I just need to take my MCAT. Should I send in my application asap or wait till after I get my MCAT score?

Secondly, what effect does committee letters have on the application process? Does it make the applicant more appealing or did it not matter?

Thanks so much! I look forward to your wisdom.

 

[hoihaie]

You will have to be more specific.

I've extensive leadership experience in my church (leading the college fellowship for 1 year) and want to put that as part of my works/activities item. Buti was told that med schools have a prejudice against religions activities?

 

[hushcom]

I've extensive leadership experience in my church (leading the college fellowship for 1 year) and want to put that as part of my works/activities item. Buti was told that med schools have a prejudice against religions activities?

That is one of the most ill-informed things I have ever heard.

 

[hushcom]

Why do ADCOMs insist on viewing a student's undergraduate GPA as the linchpin of their entire application; despite the fact that they may have had 50 credits of straight 4.0 post-bacc work, 4.0 master's (SMP or other), and saved the planet from invading Non-biological Extraterrestrials. Do ADCOMS not change and mature like other humans do? Or is it simply about keeping up the statistics of the institution that you are representing?

Your starting assumption is incorrect, and Goro is right on the money (as usual).

 

[hushcom]

Admissions to my school is not competitve, it accepts about 45-50% of applicants but I had to stay home and commute due to working in the family business. It would b very financially diffucult to replace what I do in the business. Does this change anything?

Sorry if you already posted this, but what is your undergraduate GPA?

 

[hushcom]

Just to verify, do you consider "first gen college student" as first to attend for their 4 year Bachelors?

I ask because at one interview (open file) I was talking about being a first generation college student (I also had stated this in my PS), and my interviewer stopped me and said something the along the lines of "from your primary app, I thought your father attended X college?" I explained that he did attend a "college" but it was really a vocational school where he got an Associates, and that I considered myself first generation because I was the first/only one who had my Bachelors. She didn't argue or correct me on that point, but I wonder if she just thought I was lying or trying to game the system... I've always been under the impression that first gen college student refers to someone attending a four-year institution, instead of a trade school.

Thanks

I would definitely consider you first generation. A Bachelor's degree indicates a breadth of education that you typically do not find in Associates programs.

 

[pbrocks15]

Sorry if you already posted this, but what is your undergraduate GPA?

My undergraduate GPA is 3.85, maybe a 3.9 after this semester.

 

[pbrocks15]

I'm not sure if they will also think that my college is easy because I am doing well because I really isnt. A lot of the professes are difficult, as I would assume they are in other colleges/universities.

 

[hushcom]

Hello and thanks soooo much for doing this! You've helped so many people.

A little bit about my situation

I am a senior about to graduate with a good GPA (3.6+) and good letters of recs and ecs. I am scheduled to take my MCAT in July (I'm retaking it) but I have attempted to apply last year but didn't get around to it due to my bad MCAT score. My application is ready I just need to take my MCAT. Should I send in my application asap or wait till after I get my MCAT score?

Secondly, what effect does committee letters have on the application process? Does it make the applicant more appealing or did it not matter?

Thanks so much! I look forward to your wisdom.

You should get your application rolling ASAP. It will take time to get it processed and verified, so your app will be ready to launch the moment your new score arrives.

If a school offers a committee letter then obtaining one is essentially baseline.

 

[hushcom]

My undergraduate GPA is 3.85, maybe a 3.9 after this semester.

You should be in decent shape. People choose their undergraduate institutions for a wide variety of reasons, and if you have done well then it looks good. The people who should be concerned are those who graduate from obscure colleges with unimpressive academic records.

 

[altblue]

Hi hushcom, thank you for createdthe thread. I've found some of the answers very helpful.

Finishing up my second year and transferring from a CC soon. Could you answer a few questions for me? I'd appreciate it.
1. Is it a red-flag if someone takes 5 years to graduate? I did not graduate from high school and received my GED, so I had to do remedial coursework AND changed to a science major sophomore year.
2. Kind of like 1, but I've only had a few years of non-medical related volunteering. I've only recently started medical- and science-related volunteering. If I only have medicine and research related ECs for 3 years instead of the usual 4, will this hurt my app?
3. Would a 3.5-3.6 from a rigorous school like Berkeley or Michigan hold as much weight as a 3.7-3.8 from a school not known for tough programs?
4. Or, would a drop to this from a 4.0 at a CC raise eyebrows?

 

[stars42]

1. I have never come across a cosigned LOR, and it makes no sense for one to exist.
2. We do not really give students from big universities with relatively impersonal LORs some sort of handicap, if that's what you are asking.
3. I look at the letters as a whole, and it is not uncommon to have some variation in quality between them.

Regarding the Co-Signed LOR's, I have one myself and I know it is relatively commonplace at my undergrad institution (UC). Are these looked upon less favorably than other letters because they are cosigned? Or is that not taken into consideration when reading the LOR. Thanks.

 

[DrDesire93]

I am a practicing physician who serves on the admissions committee of an allopathic medical school in the United States. I am also not new to SDN, having seen the cast of characters evolve here over a number of years. Some recent threads in the pre-allo forum have compelled me to start this one. While I am not a longstanding and venerated member of the committee, perhaps someone will find my two cents useful and/or interesting.
So please, have at it.

Thank you Dr. for your time to answer our questions. So I'll take my chance then.
1. Will the committee consider about the rigorous schedule/school reputation that a student has that may contribute to their GPA? Like if a 3.2 GPA at prestigious UCs compared to a 3.9 at other college? Is it worth it to go to high reputation undergrad with a risk at low GPA?
2. Will the LOR from a CC professor or TA be acceptable?
3. Do you look at students' application/acceptance to other schools to make decision?

 

[hoihaie]

Is it okay to write the works and activities section description in bulletpoint/resume style format? or should I do that in a paragraph form?

 

[Jr MD]

You should get your application rolling ASAP. It will take time to get it processed and verified, so your app will be ready to launch the moment your new score arrives.

If a school offers a committee letter then obtaining one is essentially baseline.

What do you mean by essentially baseline?

Also another question: I took a calculus course at a community college and received a C because during that time a very close friend of mine killed himself. This was the only C I have ever received. I am about to graduate in two weeks and I was thinking about retaking that course after I graduate due to the significant effect the C has on my sGPA. Is it worth it to take again or should I leave it be. With the C my sgpa is a 3.63. Without the C I would have a 3.70. What do you think?

Thanks so much!!

 

[hushcom]

Hi hushcom, thank you for createdthe thread. I've found some of the answers very helpful.

Finishing up my second year and transferring from a CC soon. Could you answer a few questions for me? I'd appreciate it.
1. Is it a red-flag if someone takes 5 years to graduate? I did not graduate from high school and received my GED, so I had to do remedial coursework AND changed to a science major sophomore year.
2. Kind of like 1, but I've only had a few years of non-medical related volunteering. I've only recently started medical- and science-related volunteering. If I only have medicine and research related ECs for 3 years instead of the usual 4, will this hurt my app?
3. Would a 3.5-3.6 from a rigorous school like Berkeley or Michigan hold as much weight as a 3.7-3.8 from a school not known for tough programs?
4. Or, would a drop to this from a 4.0 at a CC raise eyebrows?

1. No.
2. No.
3. It's never that simple. If you are wondering which school to transfer to, apply criteria that are meaningful to you rather than an imaginary rigor vs. GPA grid.
4. I almost always see a dip going from CC to a 4 year. That dip, in and of itself, is not very concerning to me, unless the student really crashes and burns.

 

[hushcom]

Regarding the Co-Signed LOR's, I have one myself and I know it is relatively commonplace at my undergrad institution (UC). Are these looked upon less favorably than other letters because they are cosigned? Or is that not taken into consideration when reading the LOR. Thanks.

I can't answer this question because I do not think I have ever seen one.

 

[hushcom]

Thank you Dr. for your time to answer our questions. So I'll take my chance then.
1. Will the committee consider about the rigorous schedule/school reputation that a student has that may contribute to their GPA? Like if a 3.2 GPA at prestigious UCs compared to a 3.9 at other college? Is it worth it to go to high reputation undergrad with a risk at low GPA?
2. Will the LOR from a CC professor or TA be acceptable?
3. Do you look at students' application/acceptance to other schools to make decision?

1. As I mentioned above, the notion of a clean relationship between perceived rigor/reputation and GPA is a myth. Many highly regarded institutions have horrific grade inflation, which is nice for the students but makes our lives a little harder.
2. CC is fine if the professor knows you. Try to avoid letters from TA's.
3. No, we make the vast bulk of decisions before we have access to that data. Sometimes you can surmise that an OOS applicant is unlikely to come due to probable in-state acceptance(s), but we generally think there is no point in relying on such speculation.

 

[hushcom]

Is it okay to write the works and activities section description in bulletpoint/resume style format? or should I do that in a paragraph form?

I always see paragraph format. Each medical school has had to purchase a third party software program to view and manipulate the AMCAS data. This means formatting can get mangled. I would advise you to stick with paragraphs and keep them clean and concise.

 

[hushcom]

What do you mean by essentially baseline?

Also another question: I took a calculus course at a community college and received a C because during that time a very close friend of mine killed himself. This was the only C I have ever received. I am about to graduate in two weeks and I was thinking about retaking that course after I graduate due to the significant effect the C has on my sGPA. Is it worth it to take again or should I leave it be. With the C my sgpa is a 3.63. Without the C I would have a 3.70. What do you think?

Thanks so much!!

Baseline: if a committee letter is available and you get one, that does not give you extra points. It is what you are supposed to do. If a letter is available and you choose not to get one it looks somewhat suspicious (but there are exceptions).

AMCAS averages retakes, so if you retake the class and get an A it will only move those credit hours from 2.0 to 3.0. I strongly doubt that will have such a dramatic effect on your GPA.

 

[hushcom]

Disregard.

 

[NorthernMav]

Your starting assumption is incorrect, and Goro is right on the money (as usual).

Umm, no it is not. I said ADCOMs. Not all ADCOMs. You may not be one of those ADCOMs, but there certainly are plenty of them that place the most emphasis on undergraduate GPA. And we get it, you like Goro.

 

[Ryank327]

Umm, no it is not. I said ADCOMs. Not all ADCOMs. You may not be one of those ADCOMs, but there certainly are plenty of them that place the most emphasis on undergraduate GPA. And we get it, you like Goro.

So was your intention with your post just to whine and complain about your tough admissions process? Or did you legitimately expect Hushcom to explain the actions of adcoms she has never met when you gave nothing but a few lines of exaggerated information regarding your situation? No need to be rude to someone who has sacrificed plenty of their time to dish out advice to so many people on this forum.

 

[NorthernMav]

So was your intention with your post just to whine and complain about your tough admissions process? Or did you legitimately expect Hushcom to explain the actions of adcoms she has never met when you gave nothing but a few lines of exaggerated information regarding your situation? No need to be rude to someone who has sacrificed plenty of their time to dish out advice to so many people on this forum.

I am not whining, I thought Goro's response was indeed spot on and what I was hoping to hear. I just disagree with hushadcom about my presumption. I do admit that my post was a bit antagonistic. But it was well worth it seeing you rush to their defense as if you are going to gain some brownie points.

 

[Ryank327]

I am not whining, I thought Goro's response was indeed spot on and what I was hoping to hear. I just disagree with hushadcom about my presumption. I do admit that my post was a bit antagonistic. But it was well worth it seeing you rush to their defense as if you are going to gain some brownie points.

It's not about getting "brownie points" it's about calling you out for being rude to another member for no reason. But it is obvious now that you are not able to make a post that abstains from being unnecessarily hostile or rude so I will just leave it at that.

 

[NorthernMav]

It's not about getting "brownie points" it's about calling you out for being rude to another member for no reason. But it is obvious now that you are not able to make a post that abstains from being unnecessarily hostile or rude so I will just leave it at that.

I apologize.

 

[bofocion]

Right around this time (May ish), on average how many people are on waitlists per school?

 

[bearded frog]

​

 

[nwu]

Hushcom,

1) I think I got the sense that it is looked down upon if you stay at home with your parents your gap year? Is it fine for me to get a scribe position, but stay at home with my folks to save money?

2) Do adcoms look at number of credits that you came in with in college? I came into college with 0 credits (no AP transfer credits). I have GERs that I have been putting off and I am a rising senior and will plan to cram them in my last year. It looks like I am trying to take a lot of non-science fluff classes, but the reality is they are for my graduation requirements. Will they be able to discern someone like me trying to finish off their GERs or see it as an attempt for me to boost up my GPA? (This looks different compared to someone who dosen't have to take GERs b/c they came in with a lot of credits but took them anyways to fluff)

3) I presented at a science conference years ago. Problem was, my name on the actual poster is changed compared to the official name order on the conferences brochure/pamphelet. My PI and I submitted the official title and authors to the conference. But when we were making the poster, the first author graduated early and said she did not want to travel and present. Among other things we moved the authors around on the actual physical poster so I became second author. Sounds like a weird situation, but my PI at the time was director for the conference and said nobody would care or notice. When I fill out my med application, I would like to list myself second author as on the poster I actually presented vs what was put up on the conferences website. Is this okay?

Thanks!

 

[hushcom]

Umm, no it is not. I said ADCOMs. Not all ADCOMs.

Not to belabor this point, but if I said something like "why are sorority girls so stupid?" it is not clear from my phrasing that I am referring to a subset of those individuals. Instead it looks like I am making an overly broad generalization, which is how I interpreted your question.

And we get it, you like Goro.

Actually I think Goro likes me.

 

[phunky]

I'm about to apply this year with a 3.67/38, strong upward trend, decent ECs, and good to stellar LORs. I'm aiming for a school in the top 30, because I'm interested in academic medicine. I've been a research assistant since graduating last year. I've learned a ton from this experience (lots I can talk about in my interviews) and have had the opportunity to work on several projects that should result in 2-3 papers with me as second author by the time I leave for school.

However, I will not have any papers submitted by the time I apply (although I likely will while interviewing). We will be submitting an abstract of one paper to my field's major conference by mid-June, which I am almost sure will be accepted (several of the reviewers for the conference have expressed interest in having it presented). Would it be worth submitting my application a few weeks late in order to have a submitted and/or accepted abstract to cite on my application?

I worry that with all the research I've done, it might look funny to not have any abstracts/posters/publications yet.

 

[meupatdoes]

Thanks for your help!

 

[NorthernMav]

Not to belabor this point, but if I said something like "why are sorority girls so stupid?" it is not clear from my phrasing that I am referring to a subset of those individuals. Instead it looks like I am making an overly broad generalization, which is how I interpreted your question.



Actually I think Goro likes me.

I was just being a jerk. Thanks for your input.

 

[pbrocks15]

Do you generally view committee letter looks better than individual letters?

Also, do you think I should keep more time for myself to study for the MCAT over the summer while volunteering as an EMS or should I throw research once a week and clinical research too?

 

[JVupdate]

How do you and your colleagues feel about an applicant that has enrolled or completed an SMP at a D.O. school? Would it ever possibly hurt the applicant applying to M.D. schools, even if the applicant has done well in the SMP?

 

[bearmedic]

Hushcom, thanks for running this thread it has been very helpful.

I'm a non-trad and will have been out of my initial undergrad for five years when I apply for med school. My initial undergrad does offer a committee letter but the school I am attending now to take pre-reqs does not. Thoughts on getting the committee letter vs not as it has been some time since I was a student at my initial undergrad. I have very strong letters of rec, work in medical field and pulling strong cGPA. Thanks

 

[ArdentMed]

Which would you show favoritism towards; someone who got a BSc. at a prestigious university such as UBC (University of British Columbia, BC), or someone who got a BMSc. (Bachelor of Medical Sciences) at a less prestigious place such as Dalhousie and with a slightly higher GPA to boot? In both scenarios, the MCAT scores would be the same as would volunteering and research.

Thanks in advance.

 

[dramatrauma]

.

 

[hushcom]

Right around this time (May ish), on average how many people are on waitlists per school?

bearded frog is correct, there is too much variability between schools to give a solid answer.

 

[hushcom]

Hushcom,

1) I think I got the sense that it is looked down upon if you stay at home with your parents your gap year? Is it fine for me to get a scribe position, but stay at home with my folks to save money?

2) Do adcoms look at number of credits that you came in with in college? I came into college with 0 credits (no AP transfer credits). I have GERs that I have been putting off and I am a rising senior and will plan to cram them in my last year. It looks like I am trying to take a lot of non-science fluff classes, but the reality is they are for my graduation requirements. Will they be able to discern someone like me trying to finish off their GERs or see it as an attempt for me to boost up my GPA? (This looks different compared to someone who dosen't have to take GERs b/c they came in with a lot of credits but took them anyways to fluff)

3) I presented at a science conference years ago. Problem was, my name on the actual poster is changed compared to the official name order on the conferences brochure/pamphelet. My PI and I submitted the official title and authors to the conference. But when we were making the poster, the first author graduated early and said she did not want to travel and present. Among other things we moved the authors around on the actual physical poster so I became second author. Sounds like a weird situation, but my PI at the time was director for the conference and said nobody would care or notice. When I fill out my med application, I would like to list myself second author as on the poster I actually presented vs what was put up on the conferences website. Is this okay?

Thanks!

1. Nobody cares where you live during a gap year, it's how you spend your time.

2. It is possible to tell when someone front-loads their schedule in college by looking at the science vs. non-science credits and the nature of classes. Even if we could not, there is no sense worrying about it now.

3. This might matter if you were talking about a Nature paper, but a poster? If you want to play it safe then mimic the conference website, but even if I were to somehow uncover such a discrepancy I would not assume it was deception on your part.

 

[hushcom]

I'm about to apply this year with a 3.67/38, strong upward trend, decent ECs, and good to stellar LORs. I'm aiming for a school in the top 30, because I'm interested in academic medicine. I've been a research assistant since graduating last year. I've learned a ton from this experience (lots I can talk about in my interviews) and have had the opportunity to work on several projects that should result in 2-3 papers with me as second author by the time I leave for school.

However, I will not have any papers submitted by the time I apply (although I likely will while interviewing). We will be submitting an abstract of one paper to my field's major conference by mid-June, which I am almost sure will be accepted (several of the reviewers for the conference have expressed interest in having it presented). Would it be worth submitting my application a few weeks late in order to have a submitted and/or accepted abstract to cite on my application?

I worry that with all the research I've done, it might look funny to not have any abstracts/posters/publications yet.

1. You don't need to attend a top 30 school as defined by the US News in order to go into academic medicine. It's the decisions you make regarding specialty, residency program, and innumerable choices afterwards that will define your career.

2. By my count you have been a research assistant for eleven months, give or take. That's hardly a drop in the bucket in the science game. Not having anything concrete to show for it yet does not look funny, it looks typical. I certainly would not sit on my app over an abstract, which are a dime a dozen. If anything it might be worth an update letter later in the application season.