Another Adcom, ask me (almost) anything

[Goro]

There are a number of MD schools that reward exactly this. Based upon successful SDNer's posts, I believe that Vanderbilt, Duke, Case, Albany, BU, Tufts, NYMC, Drexel, Wayne State, Rosy Franklin and SUNY Upstate are among these, as well as your own state MD schools.

ALL DO schools reward reinvention....and the MCAT doesn't even have to be as high; aim for high 20s.

Will a great >3.8 upward trend coupled with a great >34 MCAT be good enough? Also I have no objection to going osteopathic, so could you Goro please give me some advice as well?

You can do better than Carib diploma mills.
And if that doesnt work out then I will try for the Caribbean. But that is a last resort for obvious reasons. I just want to know if there will be any hope for me to get into a US medical school?

Do NOT mention, but as I have posted elsewhere, be sure that your therapist and/or psychiatrist are on board with this. Med school is a furnace and I've seen it break healthy students.

Also, should I avoid explicitly stating that I have a psychiatric disorder? Because I would think that adcoms would want to know why I have so many withdrawals. Should I not even mention this in my PS? If not, than can I apply disadvantaged on my med school app?

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[Symmetry11]

Thank you SO much goro! This is the hope I was looking for!

I plan on volunteering heavily with psychiatric populations, would this be a dead giveaway for adcoms who might connect the dots between my withdrawal history and psych volunteering? How do I address the non academic withdrawals? Do you have any experience with students in my position?

 

[hushcom]

Hi @hushcom

First I would like to thank you for providing so many people with a lot of valuable insight into the paradigm of the admissions committees. This thread has served as a teacher and motivator.

I'll keep it short -

I lost 120lbs over the course of a couple years during undergrad. How can I go about including this on an application? My weight loss journey is a big part of my life and it would feel wrong to leave it out.

I apologize if something similar has been asked and already answered.

If it is a big part of your life then use some personal statement space on it.

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

Hi @hushcom

First I would like to thank you for providing so many people with a lot of valuable insight into the paradigm of the admissions committees. This thread has served as a teacher and motivator.

I'll keep it short -

I lost 120lbs over the course of a couple years during undergrad. How can I go about including this on an application? My weight loss journey is a big part of my life and it would feel wrong to leave it out.

I apologize if something similar has been asked and already answered.

Politely butting in--
I wrote a bit about my own health journey and did mention my WL. Do it in the context of your PS. It's an important part of your story.

 

[yjj8817]

How are applicants who take both old and new mcat judged? Will they still be viewed favorably if they make a huge improvement on the new mcat and score much higher than others according to the percentiles that compare one'a score to other people's scores?

 

[Goro]

No, I suspect they'll see that you're a candidate who is more willing to work with a population that most pre-meds shy away from. I'd give you extra kudos for this type of work.

I plan on volunteering heavily with psychiatric populations, would this be a dead giveaway for adcoms who might connect the dots between my withdrawal history and psych volunteering?

If asked, you answer truthfully.
How do I address the non academic withdrawals?

All the time!
Do you have any experience with students in my position?

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Hushcom answer thread.

 

[aristrutz523]

This may be an already answered, stupid question but just double checking: if my major is psychology and im about to enter a psychology lab (one of the most prominent ones on our campus and im applying for a prestigious funding grant as well), will that be looked as favorably upon as someone who does biology/biomedical research?

 

[hushcom]

Hi. Thank you for doing this.. I had a couple questions. Sorry if anything's been answered already

1) Is 1 and a half semesters of upward trend enough for it to be considered a good upward trend? As a sophomore and junior my GPA was going lower and lower all the way down to 3.5 (my semesters were 2.9, 3.4, 3.3, etc). But senior year fall semester I got a 4.0 w/ 15 credits and this semester I should get 4.0 9 credits plus taking mcat.. gpa will end up at 3.60.

2) I need 11 credits to graduate but need to take the mcat in May and need to devote time for that.. I was gonna take 9 credits now and skip bio-organic chem b/c it'd just take too much time to get the A for that imo.. Is that looked down on? delaying graduation and taking only 9 credits to study for the mcat? And would a 4.0 with 9 credits plus MCAT not be seen as favorably as a 4.0 with 15 credits w/ no mcat studying? Thanks.

oh and 3) What science classes are not as highly regarded? I remember goro said ecology is one of them. Would you consider parisitology another?

1. Depends on the classes you are taking. Getting a 2.9 in a tough semester and a 4.0 in a fluff semester does not say much, and either way it could be considered statistical noise.

2. I am not sure what to tell you; in my undergrad 12 credits was the lowest limit for a full time student, and taking biochem/organic chem would help you prep for the MCAT, but if you feel the burden is too heavy then just delay graduation and don't worry about it.

3. Everything other than P-chem. Parasitology is a good class to take. Fascinating subject.

 

[hushcom]

you give me some hope, hushcom. The MCAT was a 33 (12 bio, 11 physical, 10 verbal).

my other setback seems to be the "clinical experience"/patient contact. I'm a Clinical Laboratory Scientist. I did the year of rotations, which i think pretty much every med tech student does. i assumed (maybe naively) that adcoms would be aware of what it entails. So i didn't go into huge detail on it. but it did include phlebotomy, observing bone marrow taps, playing with pee, poo, and other body fluids...the usual med tech stuff-which was alot of fun. I worked as a generalist briefly and then moved onto a reference lab where i do flow cytometry (it's also pretty cool).

I'm hearing different opinions about this experience. Some feel it's not enough to really "know what you're getting into" as a doctor. Some say that being a Med Tech is looked upon favorably.

I do also have quite a bit of (successful) research and non-clinical volunteering. i'm a non-trad and actually just wanted to do the volunteer activities in my spare time. i feel weird calling them "extra-curriculars." they didn't seem "extra" to me. at the time i did them, it wasn't with the intention of applying to medical school.

Clinical laboratories are generally unappreciated, so you should take every opportunity to explain the breadth of your experiences. It would still benefit you to get some shadowing experience - that would help "close the loop" on your narrative.

 

[hushcom]

Hi hushcom!

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/pre-veterinary-to-pre-medical-help-please.1116340/

Could you please look over my situation and give some advice?
Thanks.

Yup, peds.

 

[hushcom]

Hi Hushcom, I have a few questions!

1. Who makes the final decision to give interviews? How many people are involved in that decision process?

2. How much will finishing my primary in early August hurt my app? That's the earliest my school sends out committee letters. Do you start to get more selective with giving out interviews by then?

1. Depends on the school.

2. Tough for me to answer since I am not involved in screening, but what's the alternative? Just make sure the rest of your application is uploaded and verified before the committee letter goes out. I do not think getting your complete application distributed in early August is too awful.

 

[hushcom]

Thanks for replying! Just as a follow up to my 2nd question:

Although I would not prefer this, I could move back in with my parents and try to find a scribe position somewhere in their area. This gives me a bit more flexibility with volunteer hours/job opportunities/MCAT prep since I won't have to worry about paying for rent and food. Taking this option into consideration, do you think it would be more favorable to get as many clinical experience hours as I can by any means possible or would it still be acceptable if I only do a few hours of volunteering hours a week a long with a decent job that will keep me afloat?

All I can say is that we have never reviewed an application and said "Well, he could have just moved back in with his parents and become a scribe!"

 

[hushcom]

My new job pays for 100% of any classes I want to take there, would it be better to do a post-bacc or a masters in a science (both would be part time and the masters is designed to be done while working)?

There are many variables in this equation, but I inclined to agree with Graywolf. Don't turn down free classes.

 

[hushcom]

Thank you for setting up this thread! My question is rather vague so I am really just hoping to hear your thoughts on my current position as an applicant.

I graduated in the Spring of 2013 with a 3.4 cGPA. Although my cumulative is unimpressive, I followed a sophomore low point with three years of perfect grades, including retakes of any classes I scored poorly in. My extracurricular resume includes four years of fraternity membership with various leadership positions, four years of membership in my university pre-professional group, two years as a board member of my university St. Jude fundraising committee, a year of regularly shadowing a cardiothoracic surgeon who also wrote me a LOR, two years as a restaurant waiter, and 20 plus hours a week performing locally as a professional musician. I took the MCAT three times over a period of two summers and increased my score significantly each time. My final score is well over the 30 mark. I received good LORs from both my university pre med counselor and a graduate biology professor. I applied in the summer of 2013 and received an interview at my school of choice right away, but was not accepted. I went for a follow up interview in April of 2014 and the dean of admissions told me to take some time to get clinical volunteer experience, specifically with patient contact. I was also instructed to change my personal statement a little and to reapply in October. The idea behind applying so late was to give me an opportunity to gain experience to write about. I spent the time between my follow up and October as a regular patient volunteer for a local hospice. Additionally, I volunteered as a care taker for a child with muscular dystrophy at an MDA summer camp. Since I applied in October, I have yet to hear anything back. I am a little anxious that too many seats will be given away by the time my application is considered. Any input or advice on my situation would be greatly appreciated.

If you get in, celebrate. If not, apply earlier next cycle.

 

[hushcom]

I want a career in medicine more than anything. What constitutes reinvention for your school? ive estimated that I can bring my GPA up to a 3.5 by the time I apply. Will a great >3.8 upward trend coupled with a great >34 MCAT be good enough? Also I have no objection to going osteopathic, so could you Goro please give me some advice as well? And if that doesnt work out then I will try for the Caribbean. But that is a last resort for obvious reasons. I just want to know if there will be any hope for me to get into a US medical school?

I would give you the same advice I give everyone: work hard in your classes, develop a study schedule for the MCAT and follow through, find some volunteerism you enjoy and stick with it, and get some clinical exposure.

Do not go to the Caribbean under any circumstances. At one point that was a viable option for some students, but it is now basically a criminal enterprise.

Also, should I avoid explicitly stating that I have a psychiatric disorder? Because I would think that adcoms would want to know why I have so many withdrawals. Should I not even mention this in my PS? If not, than can I apply disadvantaged on my med school app?

There is not perfect way to play this, but I would advise being a little vague in referencing mental health issues during that time in your life. You do not have to disclose personal health information to adcoms, but it is part of your story and part of why you got so many Ws. It's a risk no matter what you decide, so just cross your fingers and take a shot.

 

[Gibbward]

Fair enough. I'm just worried that due to a lack of flexibility when working a non-clinical job like being a scribe, I might end up with a volunteering position that won't involve significant patient interactions and won't give me a good clinical experience. Nevertheless, thank you for your responses!

All I can say is that we have never reviewed an application and said "Well, he could have just moved back in with his parents and become a scribe!"

 

[hushcom]

Hi hushcom,
Many of your replies have been incredibly informative. I was hoping to get some of your thoughts:

1. I am concerned about my science letter of recs. Unfortunately, due to some lack of focus in my first 2 years I did not develop the requisite relationships to get a stellar letter from my science courses. When I actually started to focus (by my junior/senior year), my relationships were all with non-science (public health major). How can I resolve this issue considering schools that require 1-2 science? Should I go take classes as a non-traditional student at a local university?

EDIT: Or should I just focus on developing aspects like clinical experience?

2. I am currently working at an organization that produces Continuing Medical Education (CME) activities. I am responsible for researching physician practice gaps/needs, writing grants (>$10,000), and developing relationships with physicians. Although this could never override clinical experience, I really do enjoy the work. And it has truly brought me a better sense of a physician's life outside of direct patient care. As an adcom, have you encountered many CME related backgrounds? How does your committee view them?

Cheers.

1. I'm not sure I would immediately write off public health as non-science. Call some of the schools and clarify. Even if they want something more traditional (biology, chemistry, physics, etc.) you are not alone. Non-science majors who go to large universities often find themselves in a similar situation, with impersonal, formulaic LORs from the professors who taught prereqs. It's suboptimal but not lethal if you have other, stronger letters, and being in public health puts you in contact with professors who are definitely within the realm of health care.

2. I cannot recall coming across a CME background specifically, but it could give you some interesting points of discussion during an interview. It certainly would not be considered a negative.

 

[hushcom]

How are applicants who take both old and new mcat judged? Will they still be viewed favorably if they make a huge improvement on the new mcat and score much higher than others according to the percentiles that compare one'a score to other people's scores?

Well, yes, improvement will be judged favorably.

 

[yjj8817]

Well, yes, improvement will be judged favorably.

Thanks I was just afraid that the improvement shown on the mcat 2015 might be ignored due to unfamiliarity.

 

[hushcom]

This may be an already answered, stupid question but just double checking: if my major is psychology and im about to enter a psychology lab (one of the most prominent ones on our campus and im applying for a prestigious funding grant as well), will that be looked as favorably upon as someone who does biology/biomedical research?

Depends somewhat on the school/adcom, and more on how productive your time in the lab turns out to be. Work hard!

 

[hushcom]

Thanks I was just afraid that the improvement shown on the mcat 2015 might be ignored due to unfamiliarity.

Fortunately the 2015 MCAT is not a completely new test. It still contains harder science components (bio/biochem and chem/physics), and the critical analysis portion is a reformulated version of the old VR. It will not quite be apples to oranges, although it will take a cycle or two to smooth out.

 

[Levrone]

1. Depends on the classes you are taking. Getting a 2.9 in a tough semester and a 4.0 in a fluff semester does not say much, and either way it could be considered statistical noise.

2. I am not sure what to tell you; in my undergrad 12 credits was the lowest limit for a full time student, and taking biochem/organic chem would help you prep for the MCAT, but if you feel the burden is too heavy then just delay graduation and don't worry about it.

3. Everything other than P-chem. Parasitology is a good class to take. Fascinating subject.

Thank you. The 2.9 was mostly because of low physics grades (B- physics 1, C+ physics 2) with B's in other classes

The 4.0 15 credit semester were P.Chem lab, Biochem lab, intro to toxicology, fundamentals of P. Chem, comparative physiology, and public speaking and a 'pre med VR' class. It was probably one of my most difficult semesters but I studied as much as possible to get the upward trend and raise the grades. I'm not sure what you mean by statistical noise but I really hope 1.5 great end semesters is enough to make an ending GPA of 3.60 look more favorably.

Is fundamentals of P.Chem nearly looked as favorably as P.Chem? It's a 3000 class just like P.Chem but is required by those doing a B.A. in Chemistry, not B.S.

Also, what do you think of a student who, in the beginning of his 4th year becomes passionate about being a physician from another pre-health field b/c of some certain event, and does a lot of the 'usual EC's like shadowing/Scribing in May and applies in June that same year. Is it seen as bad? I would've done all this stuff earlier had I known I wanted to be a doctor, and I really don't wanna take 2 gap years just because of that.. I've been volunteering in a children's hospital for 5 months but won't be getting much other EC's until only a couple months before applying.

Lastly, the volunteering I do involves going to patients' rooms with a cart filled with board games/bubbles/arts&crafts, etc, and playing with the kids/ making their experience as enjoyable as it can be. It's definitely fun and a great experience for me, but Is that unique at all from what you've seen before?

 

[Ol'Lady]

Clinical laboratories are generally unappreciated, so you should take every opportunity to explain the breadth of your experiences. It would still benefit you to get some shadowing experience - that would help "close the loop" on your narrative.

Thank you again for the input I'm guessing any further activities I do would be in consideration for next cycle. it seems futile to update about future activities at this point.

 

[hushcom]

Thank you. The 2.9 was mostly because of low physics grades (B- physics 1, C+ physics 2) with B's in other classes

The 4.0 15 credit semester were P.Chem lab, Biochem lab, intro to toxicology, fundamentals of P. Chem, comparative physiology, and public speaking and a 'pre med VR' class. It was probably one of my most difficult semesters but I studied as much as possible to get the upward trend and raise the grades. I'm not sure what you mean by statistical noise but I really hope 1.5 great end semesters is enough to make an ending GPA of 3.60 look more favorably.

Is fundamentals of P.Chem nearly looked as favorably as P.Chem? It's a 3000 class just like P.Chem but is required by those doing a B.A. in Chemistry, not B.S.

I have never heard of fundamentals of P-chem, and while I have no doubt it was challenging, I would be lying if I said it looks as rigorous as normal P-chem on a transcript.

Also, what do you think of a student who, in the beginning of his 4th year becomes passionate about being a physician from another pre-health field b/c of some certain event, and does a lot of the 'usual EC's like shadowing/Scribing in May and applies in June that same year. Is it seen as bad? I would've done all this stuff earlier had I known I wanted to be a doctor, and I really don't wanna take 2 gap years just because of that.. I've been volunteering in a children's hospital for 5 months but won't be getting much other EC's until only a couple months before applying.

Being late to the game will likely hurt you somewhat, compared to other applicants with longer EC histories. But since you do not have a time machine, just stick with them and see how things play out. If you do not have any luck this cycle you will just be that much better prepared for the next.

Lastly, the volunteering I do involves going to patients' rooms with a cart filled with board games/bubbles/arts&crafts, etc, and playing with the kids/ making their experience as enjoyable as it can be. It's definitely fun and a great experience for me, but Is that unique at all from what you've seen before?

It's a good experience but not unique.

 

[wegotthis14]

1) I had a rough few semesters in the middle of college because I was dealing with depression. Since then, I have learned how to manage the issue through regular exercise and a proper sleep schedule. My grades improved afterwards. I feel that this struggle was ultimately an important experience, since it helped me realize I am resilient and capable of overcoming adversity. If I should be asked about the dip during an interview, what is the best way to address it? Should I discuss it even if it is not brought up, since adcoms will wonder about it when assessing my application?

2) What qualities in an interviewee leave you with an especially positive impression of the person?

 

[hushcom]

1) I had a rough few semesters in the middle of college because I was dealing with depression. Since then, I have learned how to manage the issue through regular exercise and a proper sleep schedule. My grades improved afterwards. I feel that this struggle was ultimately an important experience, since it helped me realize I am resilient and capable of overcoming adversity. If I should be asked about the dip during an interview, what is the best way to address it? Should I discuss it even if it is not brought up, since adcoms will wonder about it when assessing my application?

2) What qualities in an interviewee leave you with an especially positive impression of the person?

1. If I had a nickel for every time an applicant had a couple of rough semesters in the middle of college, I would have many nickels. It happens for many reasons - harder classes, the lure of extracurricular activities, personal/family issues, etc. In the end there is nothing wrong with saying you had a hard time but learned how to cope without getting into details of depression. That sort of reflection and demonstrated resilience is a positive in my book, especially in the age of helicopter parenting.

2. Normalcy. If you can sit in an enclosed room and carry on a pleasant conversation with me, a total stranger, then you're A-OK.

 

[frodo25]

I am a junior and plan on applying this upcoming summer.
If I volunteer as an EMT extensively throughout the summer, will it carry much weight?

 

[Enginerd2016]

@hushcom

Thanks again for doing this!

I just had a quick question on what adcom's think of master's degrees in non related health fields and how that affects an application with poor undergrad grades (by poor I mean a 3.3 cGPA, and a 2.8 sGPA eek). I guess I should give a little context. I started out pre-med in undergrad with an engineering major, definitely did not know how to focus and did poorly in my pre-reqs. Fast forward to post grad life, I'm a software engineer working on a master's degree in engineering when I had the opportunity to shadow several surgeries though a personal contact. I thought, what the heck, why not. Once I got in the operating room and was able to talk with the surgeon/staff during the procedure and after, I was hooked. Now I'm slowly retaking my pre-req's and finishing up my masters while working full time, through hard work I have maintained a 4.0 in both my master's and my pre-reqs.

So my question is, do adcom's view the time after graduation/more recent experiences more heavily or equally with an undergraduate career? I know that I have matured exponentially since college and I really regret not having the mental fortitude to focus and do well.

 

[hushcom]

I am a junior and plan on applying this upcoming summer.
If I volunteer as an EMT extensively throughout the summer, will it carry much weight?

It's good clinical exposure, assuming you can put in the hours and see things, but it will not make you stand out.

 

[hushcom]

@hushcom

Thanks again for doing this!

I just had a quick question on what adcom's think of master's degrees in non related health fields and how that affects an application with poor undergrad grades (by poor I mean a 3.3 cGPA, and a 2.8 sGPA eek). I guess I should give a little context. I started out pre-med in undergrad with an engineering major, definitely did not know how to focus and did poorly in my pre-reqs. Fast forward to post grad life, I'm a software engineer working on a master's degree in engineering when I had the opportunity to shadow several surgeries though a personal contact. I thought, what the heck, why not. Once I got in the operating room and was able to talk with the surgeon/staff during the procedure and after, I was hooked. Now I'm slowly retaking my pre-req's and finishing up my masters while working full time, through hard work I have maintained a 4.0 in both my master's and my pre-reqs.

So my question is, do adcom's view the time after graduation/more recent experiences more heavily or equally with an undergraduate career? I know that I have matured exponentially since college and I really regret not having the mental fortitude to focus and do well.

Your story is a common one. Interpreting graduate GPAs can be tricky because there is even less standardization than undergrad when comparing program to program. That said, it is difficult to argue with a 4.0. If the rest of your app looks good I think you will find admissions at many schools forgiving of your slightly rocky start.

 

[tea guzzling traveler]

... (deleted for anonymity)

 

[Rogert]

Hello, I have a very strong backround/interest in mental health and it's pretty obvious from my story that I'm primarily interested in psychiatry. I was rejected very quickly after my first two interviews and I've read that its frowned upon to already have a specialty in mind. Is there something I should be doing or saying in interviews? Should I change my PS/secondaries on this topic next year (if I don't get accepted anywhere)? It's such a big part of who I am that I'm not sure the second is possible without seriously flattening my story.

 

[frodo25]

It's good clinical exposure, assuming you can put in the hours and see things, but it will not make you stand out.

Ok thanks! I am really only doing it for the experience since I will be applying at that time. Does it really matter what I do while applying this summer? Is it asked about in interviews/secondaries?

 

[Sportsdude89]

Why is there so much emphasis on the MCAT when in reality it has little correlation to your performance on boards and is a completely different skill set than those required for med school and to succeed in medical practice?

I've met several people, who are both brilliant and very nice, with high MCATs and many acceptances, but they refuse to work with certain groups of people, one for instance, avoids working with people who have HIV. Why don't schools measure the value of interactions you have with people/ personal characteristics rather than just ephemeral things like test scores?

 

[moop]

Why is there so much emphasis on the MCAT when in reality it has little correlation to your performance on boards and is a completely different skill set than those required for med school and to succeed in medical practice?

I've met several people, who are both brilliant and very nice, with high MCATs and many acceptances, but they refuse to work with certain groups of people, one for instance, avoids working with people who have HIV. Why don't schools measure the value of interactions you have with people/ personal characteristics rather than just ephemeral things like test scores?

Wrong. GPA/MCAT are the most accurate predictors of how well one will do on the boards. Thus starts the debate on the merits of standardized testing. Go to reddit or search this damn site if you want to talk about that. I can also assure you that the people you've met with high MCAT scores also had other shining parts of their application that you don't know about.

Schools do evaluate people based on personal characteristics. It's called the interview and LORs. Imperfect, but how else would you do it? (Rhetorical question; let's not hijack the thread with these trite questions that you can find rich discussions on by using the search function.)

Also, there is a term for the kind of people you are describing. They're called snobs. Some smart people are snobs, and no admissions system is going to be able to weed out all the bad apples.

 

[Sportsdude89]

Wow moop, you're kind of full of yourself, especially for having not even applied yet.

I hope somewhere along your training, you're humbled.

High MCAT/GPA means so little in the grand scheme of your medical career.

 

[cactus8910]

High MCAT/GPA means so little in the grand scheme of your medical career.

Except that they indicate an ability to do well on standardized tests, which come up over and over in a medical career. I wouldn't say that someone who got a 38 on the MCAT will definitely be a better doctor than someone who got a 30, but they'll probably have an easier time with tests down the road, which can in turn get them into a better residency etc.

 

[jagster92]

Wow moop, you're kind of full of yourself, especially for having not even applied yet.

I hope somewhere along your training, you're humbled.

High MCAT/GPA means so little in the grand scheme of your medical career.

In defense of @moop regardless of your personal view toward standardized testing I have seen multiple adcoms cite the literature of the correlation between MCAT and successful progression through medical school, etc. In an imperfect system without a surefire way to assess whether the interviewee in front of you will make it to be a doctor, you need to use something. I'm not saying stats are the best indicator, but it is easier to look at the literature and see the correlation.

 

[FFH]

Wow moop, you're kind of full of yourself,

I find many hyper intelligent kids undergo this brief stage of full of themselves around the time that they were about to graduate. The education system that constantly provides reaffirmation through academic rewards, honors, GPA and rankings do that to people. To be able to ace everything in school setting creates a false sense of invincibility and authority. It's not their fault, and through the process of aging, many do learn the complexity of the game called winning in real world. We were all young once. I was much more full of myself than most other people. I wish I can go back in time and slap myself for some of the things I said or for how I said it.

 

[moop]

Wow moop, you're kind of full of yourself, especially for having not even applied yet.

I hope somewhere along your training, you're humbled.

High MCAT/GPA means so little in the grand scheme of your medical career.

Nice try, but you're changing the subject. I was not debating the merits of standardized testing as you are now. Notice the flippant reference I made to reddit and the rest of SDN. You claimed frustration over the relevance of the MCAT on board scores specifically, and so I pointed out that there is valid evidence supporting the point about board scores. I have negative interest in debating the merits of standardized testing in medicine, because it is unproductive and usually leads to flame threads about URMs. But it's a fact that adcoms have evidence that high MCAT predicts high USMLE

You know what's funny? You jumped the gun way too fast lmao. I actually agree with the bolded. But too late, you've already made a scene out of nothing.

 

[moop]

I find many hyper intelligent kids undergo this brief stage of full of themselves around the time that they were about to graduate. The education system that constantly provides reaffirmation through academic rewards, honors, GPA and rankings do that to people. To be able to ace everything in school setting creates a false sense of invincibility and authority. It's not their fault, and through the process of aging, many do learn the complexity of the game called winning in real world. We were all young once. I was much more full of myself than most other people. I wish I can go back in time and slap myself for some of the things I said or for how I said it.

Thanks bro but I'm not hyper intelligent at all, and my humbling experience already came during my gap year between sophomore and junior year of college. Some SDN noob just had to come and twist my words into a panties bunch.

 

[khronos]

Wow moop, you're kind of full of yourself, especially for having not even applied yet.

I hope somewhere along your training, you're humbled

High MCAT/GPA means so little in the grand scheme of your medical career.

First thing I thought after I read your post was, "Wow, this guy is arrogant, equating everyone who does well academically with being callous."

Bolded part for extra lols.

So, because you met some med students with strong credentials that refused to work with certain populations, GPA and MCAT are completely invalid ways to judge competency for a medical career, and people should instead use magic beans.

Got it. Oh, wise one.

 

[FFH]

Thanks bro but I'm not hyper intelligent at all, and my humbling experience already came during my gap year between sophomore and junior year of college. Some SDN noob just had to come and twist my words into a panties bunch.

I actually agree with the things that you said that I came across with, and I think your logic has been consistently and exceptionally clear which goes to show your intelligence. I didn't intend and will not try to teach you a lesson of any sort, the kind of attempt never work quite well, just ask my parents. But in my view that you don't know yet what it means to be humble. Being a super star all the way into my early 20, I didn't know neither. But it comes through later little by little and I find the the change an improvement and a relief.

 

[hushcom]

Hi Hushcom! First of all, I'm impressed that you are still doing this thread, as it has been going on for about a year now. Thanks on behalf of SDN, I know most of us really appreciate it!

Secondly, I was mostly curious about whether I had enough clinical experience, as I know you have said that a lack of clinical experience is an app killer.
Quick description of clinical experience so far: I volunteered in a homeless clinic for about 50 hours over the course of 6 months, shadowed EMT's for 30 hours, shadowed internationally for about 50 hours, shadowed in the US for about 80 hours, and I am going to use the EMT license to volunteer in India for about 200-250.

Assuming that I have a strong app alongside that (strong PS, 3.9/36, good LOR's, a lot of research, submit early, a lot of volunteering and mentoring), do you think I am in a good spot vis-a-vis clinical exposure? I was also planning on shadowing some primary care physicians once I get back stateside for a couple of weeks.

You are in as good a spot as you are going to be, at least for now. On any given day a screener might look at clinical exposure and place primary value on quantity, quality, variety, or consistency. When your app gets to the committee the discussion will likely be less about the hours and settings and more about what you took from the experiences.

 

[hushcom]

Hello, I have a very strong backround/interest in mental health and it's pretty obvious from my story that I'm primarily interested in psychiatry. I was rejected very quickly after my first two interviews and I've read that its frowned upon to already have a specialty in mind. Is there something I should be doing or saying in interviews? Should I change my PS/secondaries on this topic next year (if I don't get accepted anywhere)? It's such a big part of who I am that I'm not sure the second is possible without seriously flattening my story.

I am not sure how to put this delicately, but if you are getting interviews and receiving rapid rejections after your interviews, the problem may not lie in your application.

 

[hushcom]

Ok thanks! I am really only doing it for the experience since I will be applying at that time. Does it really matter what I do while applying this summer? Is it asked about in interviews/secondaries?

It certainly could be asked about. Don't go on autopilot just because you are applying.

 

[Rogert]

I am not sure how to put this delicately, but if you are getting interviews and receiving rapid rejections after your interviews, the problem may not lie in your application.

Yes, Goro has made me aware of this, which is why my question to you had to do with interviews and a portion that I have identified as a possible weak point. I'm not sure why that would have been needed to be put delicately so I feel like I'm missing something.

To reiterate, is there a way I talk about my interest and background in mental health and, verbalized or not, psychiatry without getting myself autorejected for violating whatever ideal it is I'm violating?

 

[hushcom]

Why is there so much emphasis on the MCAT when in reality it has little correlation to your performance on boards and is a completely different skill set than those required for med school and to succeed in medical practice?

I've met several people, who are both brilliant and very nice, with high MCATs and many acceptances, but they refuse to work with certain groups of people, one for instance, avoids working with people who have HIV. Why don't schools measure the value of interactions you have with people/ personal characteristics rather than just ephemeral things like test scores?

The literature is not conclusive about a lack of correlation. See, for example, Julian ER Validity of Medical College Admission Test for predicting medical school performance. Acad Med. 80:910-7, 2005. If you search Pubmed you will find additional studies that reach a similar conclusion. Also look up the most recent version of "Using MCAT data in medical student selection," published by the AAMC, and look at Table A1.

I have learned in the past year that this all comes back to residency programs. Step scores are considered a good predictor of specialty board passage rates (one important criteria by which residency program directors are judged), and they are used heavily in residency applicant screening. If the MCAT can predict a good step score, which will in turn make the student a more valuable commodity in the match, then medical schools have strong incentive to take the 34 over the 28. And for most medical schools there is no shortage of applicants with 30+ MCAT scores.

Schools do search for evidence of desirable personality traits, and measure the ability of applicants to interact with people. Part of that occurs on the interview day, part of that occurs in reading your LORs, part of that occurs in examining the types of extracurricular experiences you have. But every application is an incomplete snapshot of the person behind it, every acceptance is somewhat of a gamble, and every school will place different emphasis on different parts of the application.

Finally, test scores are anything but ephemeral. The knowledge they test may be, but once a score is determined and recorded it is essentially indelible.

 

[hushcom]

Yes, Goro has made me aware of this, which is why my question to you had to do with interviews and a portion that I have identified as a possible weak point. I'm not sure why that would have been needed to be put delicately so I feel like I'm missing something.

To reiterate, is there a way I talk about my interest and background in mental health and, verbalized or not, psychiatry without getting myself autorejected for violating whatever ideal it is I'm violating?

If you feel the need to obscure it somewhat, one way to do that is remove any mention of psychiatry and instead raise the issue of how important mental health is in other fields, particularly the primary care specialties. It's in the literature.

But again, if your interest in psych is clearly stated in your application, and you are getting interviews, then that is probably not the source of the problem. It's more likely that your interview behavior is off putting in some way, and that is something I cannot help you with other than to suggest mock interview practice.

 

[Rogert]

If you feel the need to obscure it somewhat, one way to do that is remove any mention of psychiatry and instead raise the issue of how important mental health is in other fields, particularly the primary care specialties. It's in the literature.

But again, if your interest in psych is clearly stated in your application, and you are getting interviews, then that is probably not the source of the problem. It's more likely that your interview behavior is off putting in some way, and that is something I cannot help you with other than to suggest mock interview practice.

That makes things a little more clear. Thank you.