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Another reason to not get sick in NYC

Discussion in 'Osteopathic' started by DO Anes, Apr 5, 2012.

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  1. DO Anes

    DO Anes ASA Member

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    SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)
    New York City Hospitals In Scholarship Deal With Grenada Medical School.

    The New York Times (4/5, A18, Hartocollis, Subscription Publication) reports that during "the last few years, St. George's University Medical School on the Caribbean island of Grenada has come under fire from New York City medical schools for paying to have its students trained in the city's public hospitals, turning what local schools say should be an academic relationship into a fiscal one." According to the Times, "St. George's and the city's public hospitals are" now "further cementing their financial relationship with a deal that will provide $11 million in scholarships for New Yorkers to attend St. George's over the next five years." In return, "they must promise to work as primary care physicians in the city's hospitals after graduation."


    Of course, they have to somehow get those primary care residency slots... Expect NYC taxes to increase more because of this bad investment.
  2. doublefrick

    doublefrick

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    Wow. Money is power...
  3. MLT2MT2DO

    MLT2MT2DO

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    More like...wow, not practicing in NYC or Cali is power...
  4. fletchffletch

    fletchffletch

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    "Mr. Aviles, of the hospitals corporation, said that New York medical schools were not producing enough primary physicians to meet the need, adding, "Not a single medical student from a local medical school has been displaced.""

    Didn't TouroCOM lose Harlem Hospital because its rotation spots were bought by one of the Caribbean schools?

    Side note: Curious if anyone knows what happened with the New York Resolution on Carib students/clinical spots
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2012
  5. SmokD

    SmokD

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    Eh, I guess the word is displaced. Since we were never there to begin with, we can't have been displaced
  6. DocEspana

    DocEspana Back from the wasteland

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    Yea. The state medical society just got wind of this late last night. We're formulating a response. Its going to be particularly pissed.

    It passed in both NY State's medical society and the AMA's student section. The entire AMA is going to take a stance on it in June of this year. I cant really say much on what NY is doing, but the one thing that was pubicly admitted is they are working on a lawsuit against some members/leaders in HHC.

    This will not body well either way.

    This is correct on Touro. But the quote from the dude is completely false anyway since they've displaced students from NYMC, Columbia, Einstein and Downstate with this. Indirectly, because of the responsive expansion of Ross, Stony Brook has felt the squeeze too. (Cornell, Sinai and NYU seem mostly unaffected, though highly sympathetic). I have no idea where this guy is pulling this stuff out of when there are no more columbia students at a level I trauma center *they are affiliated with* in Harlem or when NYMC students are going to CT because their HHC affiliates turned them away and Metropolitan is maxed out on students.
  7. Dharma

    Dharma

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    This is ridiculous! It's all about the money. You think they could've set up deals with local schools (Touro and NYCOM quickly come to mind). I love NYC, but as a taxpayer there, I have to say that the place is ran by a bunch of corrupt A-holes. It's frustrating and very sad.
  8. gators21

    gators21

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    How did they pubicly admit something? Streaking through the quad, into the gymnasium?:laugh:
  9. DocEspana

    DocEspana Back from the wasteland

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    It was vajazzled into some prominent female physicians.
  10. Nymphicus

    Nymphicus kane o ke kai Moderator Lifetime Donor

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    This is pretty terrible all around. Publicly funded scholarships to go to St. George's? What?
  11. DO Anes

    DO Anes ASA Member

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    To paraphrase deTouqeville, "People elect the government they deserve". I'm sure NYC will be another Obama landslide in 2012, as well. I think Forest Gump said it best, "Stupid is as stupid does". The nice thing about NYC, though, is that it's the closest third-world country to America.
  12. DocEspana

    DocEspana Back from the wasteland

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    .... this said about the seat of economy in the US. And one of the safest cities in the entire US. And I don't just mean major cities. I mean anything large enough to qualify as a city.

    Yes. I'm nitpicking because blatant political slander without a request for it (from any wing of political thought) ticks me off. But NYC has got to be one of the pinnacles of modern society and innovation anywhere in the world in pretty much any way except for the cleanliness of the streets. Oh the streets of NYC are filthy.
  13. gators21

    gators21

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    See thats whats wrong with New York. Instead of vajazzling NO FMGs, they went the non-confrontational route. When are they gonna learn to stop trying to please the poor with politically correct vajazzling. Waist of taxpayer money.
    Haha:thumbup:
  14. pdeco1

    pdeco1

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    The ignorance in this statement is appalling. You clearly have no idea what a 3rd world country looks like or how our political parties are mostly one in the same.
  15. DO Anes

    DO Anes ASA Member

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    the cost of living, taxes, crummy services, lousy hospitals, poor consumer value, prices, etc. Aside fom that it's a shining city on a hill.
    PS, My family lives in NYC.
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2012
  16. DocEspana

    DocEspana Back from the wasteland

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    You basically said prices for four out of 6 comments. They also have an unusually high income for those who work there. I'd say its a living wage, but its not the same thing. But if cost is your big issue i can't argue agaibst that. Every major city is expensive. The biggest city is the most expensive.

    Poor services and crummy hospitals is ridiculous. I wouldn't be surprised if some magazine ranked nyc the best city in America for service (public, or from private vendors). An amazing public transport system, surprisingly forgiving traffic, and everyone delivering anything to anywhere for free will do that.

    The hospitals are world reknowned despite having the most varied immigrant population in America. It's so bad that nyc has a different criteria for positive on a ppd. seems like an odd point to make, but the fact is every odd disease out there shows up in our ER bay. It's a miracle that we aren't the entire list if worst hospitals ob America since rare difficult ti treat diseases are a metric that counts against a hospital according to cobsumer reports.

    Perfect. No. But it is as close to a city on a hill as the US is going to see. IMHO. It may not be everything to everyone, but I think it represents more of what should be than any other place could. Though I guess you could argue for subjectivity there
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2012
  17. DocEspana

    DocEspana Back from the wasteland

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    This is of course, assuming you can afford the cost of living.
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2012
  18. bunion123

    bunion123

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    They're willing to pay the hospitals to let there students rotate.MONEY TALKS.

    SGU and NYCOM charge the same amount. whats NYCOM doing with the $$?

    either way, IMGs are getting squeezed out of residencies every year, many are graduating with 200k in debt and no residency. So I have some sympathy for them.
    But in the end, theyre fighting a losing battle, you might not be able to rotate at some of these hospitals but get an equivalent score on the boards as an IMg and theyll take you over them.
  19. bunion123

    bunion123

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    reread the article
    " The deal will give out 25 scholarships — 5 full and 20 half — in the first year, and the value of 40 full scholarships in the four years after that, officials said. The scholarships are to be financed entirely by St. George’s."
  20. DocEspana

    DocEspana Back from the wasteland

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    Well NYCOM isnt failing 40% of its students prior to clinical years. So what they're doing with their money from successful students is the same thing SGU is doing with it. Not all that much.

    But at SGU you pre-pay for all four years. Which means that if you fail out, which 40-ish% do, your entire pre-payed tuition is used to pave the way for the other students. There is zero doubt that it is part of the schools economic model to take those extra ~400 people solely because they're stupid enough to pay ahead of time despite having no chance of moving past the pre-clinical stage.
  21. bunion123

    bunion123

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    have NO idea where you got your information from. SGU students pay year by year. and if you check acceptance and graduation rates and the general conseus on Valuemd forums youll see 15% fail out (which ill grant you is still high)
  22. user3

    user3 MS-0

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    They enroll ~1000 students per year and only 500-600 match per year. Search through docespana's old posts; he has researched the stats and has found that at best, ~55% of students that first enroll will match.
  23. DocEspana

    DocEspana Back from the wasteland

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    yes. 15% loss per year (for 30% total drop out over two years) and a 10-15% deceleration (aka a forced repeat of the pre-clinical years solely due to not being high enough up on the class rankings. Is irrelevant of actual grades. Solely class standing, which is what makes me think that the economic model is to collect from 40% of the students to guild the way for 60%). Leads to a class size of 800-1000 and a graduating class size of 450-550 (SGU is less transparent about it class size than Ross, but in the past they've messed up and published it publically. Recently I will admit I've had no clue of the exact class size, but friends on the island confirm about 750-800 there and 100-150 in england). The fact that the graduating number doesnt seem to include the "Decellerated" people means that this is not an issue of "repeating" years, but rather is a deterrant to graduation. Since it every class had a percent that was "Decellerated" you would end up with the previous year compensating for the present year. This is not seen. Instead decelleration is how you really milk 10-15% of the class for even more than the normal ~$200,000 before you boot them.

    As for paying ahead of time. I cannot speak for the classes of 2014 or 2015. But the classes of 2013 and 2014 most certainly had to pay ahead of time. It isn't $200,000 on day 1. But it is $200,000 paid out before your even much into 2nd year. Its one of the things that the SGU AND ROSS STUDENTS I ROTATE WITH complain about the most. That they are required to pay their entire 4 year tuition in a little over a year, which leads to them accruing interest on the full amount of their education much earlier than myself, who is accruing a sad +$50,000 each year, but at least I'm still not paying interest on the full $200,000 yet.

    EDIT: Disclaimer I always have to give. I do not in any way think less of the students who go there and hundreds of fully competent physicians come out of the various areas of the caribbean each year. My issue falls with the schools themselves, who engage in predatory practices that are both abusive to a large portion of their student body and compete unfairly with American schools by focusing their entire strategy on a technique which American schools are forbidden to compete on due to the rules of their accreditation. Caribbean schools only exist because US schools are not numerous enough to actually train all of the qualified candidates we make at home. This is an issue the AAMC and AACOM have addressed through expanding medical schools within the united states in the coming year. It makes me particularly convened that these schools will become extra abusive of their student body so as to get a final push into the US before an influx of new American schools greatly slams the door on what was once a highly acceptable method for gaining a medical degree, and is still seen as a viable option for those who are willing to take a high risk education.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  24. DrWBD

    DrWBD Formerly 'wanna_be_do' Lifetime Donor

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    Normally I'm in near-complete agreement with your posts. I have to say I'm a little disappointed at this one :laugh: And if you want to see a 'third world country' in America, I'm thinking Baltimore, Newark, and Detroit would be higher up than NYC.
  25. se20001984

    se20001984

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    yea the TouroCom dean was not happy with the carribean "banks" comming in and taking spots

    he said we cannot compete and the gov will not put sanctions unless we fill up our own US medical rez spots before they cut off the islanders...

    im guessing this is the reason why the DO are expanding like crazy

    the schools pass through less legistration..prob much cheaper to build..and are mostly in rural areas...as opposed to the big city MDs

    the DOs are growing like crazy..and i think are doing anything they can to cut the islands off
  26. se20001984

    se20001984

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    1 in 4 medical graduates now at DO...

    that is pretty impressive...
  27. OrganicDOc2BE

    OrganicDOc2BE

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    It is quite impressive... and this is financed by SGU so it's not that big of a deal. It all comes to business and money for these hospitals.
  28. druggeek

    druggeek

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    Nah. More DO schools = lower standards for the top 4 carribean schools. Admission standards will drop in the carribean at the top and work its way down. At the bottom you still have people with 1.9 GPAs and 12 MCATs ready to become House. :laugh:
  29. fletchffletch

    fletchffletch

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    Is there somewhere online where we can see what the ny state medical society or ama are doing or saying, or just when the news picks something up?
  30. Nymphicus

    Nymphicus kane o ke kai Moderator Lifetime Donor

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    Ok. I missed that line. But still...state-advertised scholarships to Caribbean schools.
  31. johnnydrama

    johnnydrama I'm no Superman

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    NYC is about the only sign of civilization in America. I'm glad you've been priced out.
  32. DocEspana

    DocEspana Back from the wasteland

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    Offshore Medical Schools
    Medical students who attend LCME/COCA-accredited New
    York State medical schools are very concerned that they may
    not have access to necessary clinical clerkship programs in
    New York Hospitals as a result of Caribbean Offshore
    Medical Schools purchasing increasing numbers of these
    clerkship slots for their students from hospitals in New York.
    In the past, procurement of these clinical clerkship rotations
    by LCME/COCA accredited medical schools for students in
    their clinical years has depended on agreements made
    between the medical schools and the hospital, based not on
    financial transactions, but on providing the highest quality of
    education to the students, thereby ensuring continuation of
    the best medical care for the community served and for the
    United States. For-profit offshore medical schools are not
    required to meet LCME/COCA accreditation standards.
    They are continuing to increase in numbers, so that there are
    more students from these schools each year coming to the
    U.S. and to New York in particular for their clinical training,
    as many of them to not have an affiliation with a local
    teaching hospital in the Caribbean. In order to secure clinical
    rotation sites for their students, these for-profit offshore
    schools are contracting with hospitals in New York to pay in
    excess of $400 per student per week of clerkship experience.
    U.S. medical schools cannot match these amounts and it has
    been estimated that enabling U.S. schools to match the
    amounts paid by offshore schools would require a tuition
    increase of $35,000. The New York City Health and
    Hospitals Corporation has a ten-year exclusive contract with
    St. Georges Medical Schools to send 600 new students per
    year of education into an area that already has difficulty
    accommodating seven U.S. medical schools, and is a very
    desirable site by U.S. medical schools nation-wide.
    LCME/COCA standards are required to be met for
    American medical students to participate in third-year
    clerkships, but for-profit offshore medical schools do not
    have a standardized equivalent system of evaluation for their
    students before they participate in third-year clerkships in
    American hospitals.

    As a result of this, MSSNY will support
    that preference not be given to students from international
    and dual-campus medical schools over students from
    LCME/COCA accredited medical schools for clinical
    clerkship rotations in hospitals or affiliated clinics.

    Moreover, MSSNY is following the meetings of the Advisory
    Committee on Long-Term Clinical Clerkships, created by the
    New York State Education Department, and hopes to be
    able to support the future work of this Committee as it looks
    at the regulations of long-term clerkships and at the
    standards of the off-shore medical school curriculums,
    didactic program outcome measures, clinical program
    outcome measures and faculty constructed exams and
    evaluations. The Advisory Committee will also review and
    make changes in site visits to the off shore medical schools
    to determine whether they will be considered an “approved
    school”, which would give them the ability to send their
    students to New York State long-term clinical clerkship
    programs. Approvals will be time-limited and re-site visits
    will occur every 3-5 years.
  33. DocEspana

    DocEspana Back from the wasteland

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    AMA Stance. Already approved by the medical student section. Comes up for debate by the whole AMA in June of this year.

    RESOLVED, That our AMA encourage local teaching hospitals to secure access to clinical clerkship positions for medical students educated in US Liaison Committee on Medical Education/Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation accredited medical schools before allocating positions to medical students from non-accredited schools; and be it further

    RESOLVED, That the AMA oppose extraordinary payments by any medical school for access to clinical rotations.
  34. valkener

    valkener

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    Hey DocEspana,

    I have enjoyed your posts for a while. I think you have some extremely rare insight into how Caribbean Medical Schools operate and I think you should write an article on it for a major newspaper. With a little more research and some good info-graphics this could hit big and would allow the public to see how students are being trapped (200k, first year), and how some NYC students are getting screwed over valuable rotation spots. This is even more interesting with the backers of these schools setting foot in the US via RVU.

    I find it most sad that a hospital would accept money for clinical rotations and that is not only because these schools are not in the US but it's frankly corruption.
    Last edited: May 2, 2012
  35. DocEspana

    DocEspana Back from the wasteland

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    Well in order to get written in a newspaper I need to be on staff or I need to write an Op Ed. I've been rejected a few times by New York Time's Op Ed and I dont have the time to get a real job at a newspaper ;). I actually figure the Op Ed might work out for me eventually, I just need to write the perfectly worded letter at the perfect time. Responding to (comparatively) small issues hasnt been high profile enough. Hopefully there will never be another $100million deal to respond to. But that would be the kind of crap that would make them give the cherished Op Ed to a medical student.

    But I've been published on the matter before in a few venues. Been published previously and will be published again on the matter. Especially if you're in NY, keep your eyes open for some comments on the matter. If it's written by a student you might just be reading my article. (almost certainly are, but idk if someone else might pick up my torch in time)
  36. niller

    niller

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    I know this is thread is bit old at this point, but I felt compelled to reply. Maybe it's the sleep-deprivation at work again.

    I live in NYC, was accepted to TouroCOM-NY, and enjoy writing, which is something I NEVER thought I'd actually like. I'm not entirely sure what my point is, I suppose I hope to actually read something you've written about all this and know it's you. I've been considering writing more and trying to mix it into my old career (software engineer) and my planned one. I hope you land an OpEd!
  37. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    NYC is where many unsuccessful immigrants still live, the sexually misguided souls, the psychos, feminists and other weird people congregate because they would be ostracized in more civilized places.

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/84-million-new-yorkers-suddenly-realize-new-york-c,18003/
    (I know it is written in satire but honestly if you read it regularly it pretty much comes close to the truth)

    I was born and raised in NYC and I hate this city with a passion. Live here for a few years and have 200 people say f*ck you to you and you will realize why New Yorkers are so rude. Because it is contagious. Not only is rudeness contagious but so is decadence, ignorance, socialism and bad driving.

    There are thousands of studies out there that say it is healthier to not live in a large city. Here is one of them: http://psychcentral.com/news/2011/06/24/biology-behind-urban-anxiety/27223.html

    People usually come here because of the reputation but then they live here for a bit and realize what a horrible mistake they have made or they just make up some bullsh*t reasons like "I don't want to live in the middle of nowhere." that they can keep telling themselves so they stay sane living here.

    Even successful doctors here are psycho:
    http://gawker.com/5485270/best-room...n-studio-for-back walking-wife finding-female

    So do yourselves a favor. When somebody says they want to move to NYC. Say "Goodluck!" and never talk to them again.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2012
  38. oms2

    oms2 oms-4

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  39. johnnydrama

    johnnydrama I'm no Superman

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    Hm, I've lived here all my life and haven't had that experience.

    Has it occurred to you that maybe you were the problem and not NYC?

    I don't call people ****tards regularly, but you do bring out the urge to call you one.
  40. DocEspana

    DocEspana Back from the wasteland

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    I agree with you 100%

    I'll enjoy as i continue to live in the healthiest (by life expectancy and bmi) mid size or larger city in america.
  41. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    1 in 5 New York City residents are living at or below the poverty line and yet New York City has the highest combined tax rate of any place in the United States of America. Are you connecting the dots here?
    (Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/17/n...ty-rate-reaches-highest-level-since-2005.html)


    I don't know where you found your statistics from but here's some I found:
    http://opiniojuris.org/wp-content/files/kevin-fattest-states-2008-468.gif
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/melaniehaiken/2011/09/13/americas-top-10-healthiest-cities/

    I really don't believe your life expectancy statement. BMI, definitely not the healthiest but healthier than most of America.
  42. DocEspana

    DocEspana Back from the wasteland

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    I get me results from actual measurments of this stuff. NYC/North Jersey/Long Island obesity rate in 2011: 21.5% National Average in 2010: 35.7% (its climbed since then). These are the official numbers from CDC, Gallup polls and Food Research Action Center. That percent is way below the average of any other major or mid size cities (there are many rural areas with extremely low obesity rates)

    I've seen the number 19.7% before for obesity in NYC before. Its either the 2010 number, or its the 2011 number without long island counted. Its from a Time Out NY article from approximately 14 months ago. Yes. I memorized the percent. Its something i do. Stats are my thing.

    Similarly Bergen County in NJ and Fairfield county in CT represent the #1 and #3 longest life expectancy in america by county in 2011. And the 5 boroughs of NYC as well as 3 counties directly north of NYC all have the highest life expectancy category possible (82.8-86 years). The only other cities of note that have this category? Miami, Seattle, and the suburbs of San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Boston (not the counties/cities themselves though in any of these cases). In miami and seattle's case, the surrounding counties do not have the same elevated life expectancy.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2012
  43. DocEspana

    DocEspana Back from the wasteland

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    Actual census data: only 15.8% of New York City residents are below poverty line in 2009 (last time it was measured by city) http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/income_expenditures_poverty_wealth.html

    Poverty nationally has not been measured since 2010, but the national average then was 15.1%.

    I'd say that we're doing pretty damn good considering most people consider the bronx, which has to be at least 20% of NYC's population, to literally be a wasteland of poverty. And I love NYC and I have to admit that is a badlands compared to the other 4 counties.

    For comparison: Boulder, Colorado - 23.7%
    Birmingham, AL - 20.0%
    Baltimore, Maryland - 17%
    Bakersfield, Cali - 16.5%
    Memphis, TN - 21.5%
    Miami, FL - 20.5%
    New Orleans, LA - 18.7%
    Charleston, SC - 17.4
    Seattle: 5.1% (good for them!)
    Los Angeles - 16.1%
    Little Rock, AK - 15.2%
    Wichita, KA - 12.2%
    Tucson - 16.5%
    Philadelphia - 19.9%
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2012
  44. johnnydrama

    johnnydrama I'm no Superman

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    What dots are you connecting? Those living below the poverty line obviously pay almost nothing in taxes - and take in more in benefits.

    And the uber rich here can afford the taxes, which help pay to keep the city clean, build parks, and maintain the greatest public transportation system in the country.
  45. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    That a large chunk of the city's taxation revenue is absconded and embezzled. Ever notice that they have been repairing the FDR Drive for the past 20 years and never seem to finish? Don't even get me started on the quality of the roads in NYC. Its like a third world country when it comes to potholes and crumbling infrastructure.
  46. DocEspana

    DocEspana Back from the wasteland

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    more accurately, as stated before, NYC is the single largest source of federal tax money of any area of the country. I forget the exact number (so forgive me if im off by a few cents) but NYC receives 71 cents of federal money for every dollar it pays out with taxes. As a matter of fact, if you look at the country, the northeast, great lakes, and west coast are the areas that create more tax money than they use up, while the rest of the country uses up more federal money than they create.

    Your arguments are literally making no sense and are utilizing disparate (and quantitatively incorrect) statements to attempt to tie together assertions unrelated to the comments you make (factually correct or otherwise). I would hazard a guess, an a guess is all it is, that NYC is among the least corrupted cities if you follow the transit of money. This of course assumes that you don't make a blind assumption that all dealings with organized labor are inherantly corrupt. I vehemantly disagree with that assumption, but there are others who believe that organized labor is literally the downfall of modern economic policy and I'm too tired to argue that point. So if you can stay outside that point, I would be curious to see if you can actually back up any of your suggestions.
  47. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    I did not make this assumption. I said a "large chunk" which is quantitatively vague. And I gave a specific anecdotal example about how one highway just never seems to get finished and other observations I make about the city.

    I guess we are both not qualified to make insights into the transfer of money in NYC just as any other citizen that is not directly dealing with these transactions. But we are political beings and we try to come up with unscientific correlations to issues that cannot be studied scientifically such as this specific issue.
  48. johnnydrama

    johnnydrama I'm no Superman

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    It's definitely in the 70's, not sure of the exact figure. It's kind of funny/sad actually - in general red states receive far more federal aid than blue states (per tax revenue).

    Also, don't forget that the same is true on the NYC vs NY state level as well - a lot of the money is leached from the city to support upstate.
  49. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    I heard from upstate residents that it is the other way around actually. Ever notice how clean and pothole free upstate New York is (for the most part)? All this subsidized housing and social programs in the city suck out a lot of state money too.
  50. johnnydrama

    johnnydrama I'm no Superman

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    Yes, and they're very wrong.

    http://www.nyc.gov/html/om/pdf/2004_expenditure_nys2.pdf

    Without NYC, upstate NY would basically be Cleveland post LeBron.

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