Anti-URM sentiment on preAllo

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I've never had a black professor. Just white or Asian

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I've never had a black professor. Just white or Asian

Same here. Just Asian, White and 1 Indian and 1 Latina Professor. I never had problems with any of my professors because I busted my behind in my classes so I have been a top student. Still unfortunate that black or latino/latina professors are so scarce, except in a department like Afro Caribbean or Latino/Latina studies (at least in my undergrad anyway).
 
This is just how it is, minorities with lower grades are more likely to be accepted than individuals with slightly "better" stats. I use quotes because GPA and MCAT may be objective, but other aspects obviously are not. I am a young white man from a poorer background, and I am guilty of having some resentment. I do have friends that are black and hispanic with wealthier, college educated parents which I do not have but went to my undergrad for free, while I have plenty of loans. It has been hard to grasp, but I guess I am saying that there are two sides here. Some statements people make are incredibly ridiculous and ignorant though. But then again, its also offensive to start throwing around blanket statements about everyone else being privileged. I could probably talk about this all day, but I just wanted to give my two cents.


Please make this part of your hardship statement when you apply to medical school. You're right that a blanket statement should NOT be placed on all URM. Many people think only in terms of URM but really also about socioeconomics. Most of the time, but not all the time, URM are also disadvantaged socio-economically but some never never stop to think about the implications of being on or the other. Both poverty and URM have their own unique challenges.
 
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*preparing for dislikes*

Blacks, hispanics and a lesbian... all complaining about white privilege or male privilege or something else (god knows you'd find something to say 'poor me' about). I think that's what gets the pre-allo people upset (and your future med school classmates). Many people have disadvantages. From mental illness, to abusive family, to addiction, to rural areas, to lack of transportation, to physicial problems, to *I could literally go on and on*

But nothing compares to the black privilege in med school admissions. And hence, it's unfair.
Look at me- I'm indian-american and I'm from the indian racial group called dravidians. There's a good chance I'm much blacker (skin wise) than most of you but I'm also obviously indian so I don't dare identify as such. Meanwhile, I get the same racial discrimination PLUS the ocassional osama (not so much post 2011), towelhead, sand n---, terrorist, etc etc.

It's not about making up for discrimination. It's about black people not applying to medical schools + doing poorly academically (for whatever reason. slavery? but not really- my dad grew up in a hut made of mud bricks in a 3rd-world part of india. He would have loooooved to be black in America.) And for some reason we need perfect diversity. And hence the red carpet is rolled out for you. If you were non-black would you honestly think that's fair?
 
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*preparing for dislikes*

Blacks, hispanics and a lesbian... all complaining about white privilege or male privilege or something else (god knows you'd find something to say 'poor me' about). I think that's what gets the pre-allo people upset (and your future med school classmates). Many people have disadvantages. From mental illness, to abusive family, to addiction, to rural areas, to lack of transportation, to physicial problems, to *I could literally go on and on*

But nothing compares to the black privilege in med school admissions. And hence, it's unfair.
Look at me- I'm indian-american and I'm from the indian racial group called dravidians. There's a good chance I'm much blacker (skin wise) than most of you but I'm also obviously indian so I don't dare identify as such. Meanwhile, I get the same racial discrimination PLUS the ocassional osama (not so much post 2011), towelhead, sand n---, terrorist, etc etc.

It's not about making up for discrimination. It's about black people not applying to medical schools + doing poorly academically (for whatever reason. slavery? but not really- my dad grew up in a hut made of mud bricks in a 3rd-world part of india. He would have loooooved to be black in America.) And for some reason we need perfect diversity. And hence the red carpet is rolled out for you. If you were non-black would you honestly think that's fair?

This is not an AA policy, hence your comments are somewhat unnecessary. Yes everyone faces discrimination in some form or another, but this is not about righting wrongs like AA is. The AAMC and most med schools believe in increasing diversity in the physician population because (whether you agree with it or not) they believe this will improve patient care. If you don't agree with that policy that's fine. It's understandable that ppl who wouldn't benefit from a policy would be against it. Kind of like when ppl are poor they're all about welfare, but once they're rich they no longer want to pay taxes to support it, get the idea? We all understand that part of it. If you don't agree with it (like many students) then write to the AAMC or legislature or whatever in order to change but as I see it, the AAMC isn't changing it anytime soon.

On a side note, your racial/ethnic group is overrepresented in medicine so I can see why you think all of us URM are just over here crying "poor me" lol
 
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This is not an AA policy, hence your comments are somewhat unnecessary. Yes everyone faces discrimination in some form or another, but this is not about righting wrongs like AA is. The AAMC and most med schools believe in increasing diversity in the physician population because (whether you agree with it or not) they believe this will improve patient care. If you don't agree with that policy that's fine. It's understandable that ppl who wouldn't benefit from a policy would be against it. Kind of like when ppl are poor they're all about welfare, but once they're rich they no longer want to pay taxes to support it, get the idea? We all understand that part of it. If you don't agree with it (like many students) then write to the AAMC or legislature or whatever in order to change but as I see it, the AAMC isn't changing it anytime soon.

On a side note, your racial/ethnic group is overrepresented in medicine so I can see why you think all of us URM are just over here crying "poor me" lol

Yeah that makes sense...I benefited from affirmative action and now I don't want black people to have it. :eyebrow:

But my original point - why all the whining about privilege then? I could understand it from poor inner city youths but not so much black med school applicants whose 3.3/27 gives them a 82% chance admittance to at least one of the schools they apply to (AMCAS in 2013). Would you stop complaining about the "white man" if the powers that be made it 100% admittance with free tuition -- because by the comments on this thread I'm thinking the answer would still be "No, because I don't see enough (non-asian) dark skinned people around me in medical school."
 
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Yeah that makes sense...I benefited from affirmative action and now I don't want black people to have it. :eyebrow:

But my original point - why all the whining about privilege then? I could understand it from poor inner city youths but not so much black med school applicants whose 3.3/27 gives them a 82% chance admittance to at least one of the schools they apply to (AMCAS in 2013). Would you stop complaining about the "white man" if the powers that be made it 100% admittance with free tuition -- because by the comments on this thread I'm thinking the answer would still be "No, because I don't see enough (non-asian) dark skinned people around me in medical school."
Did you pay any attention to what the definition of white privilege is? It's not just in reference to money and SE class. Like you mentioned, there's a whole bunch of things you experience that white ppl would never understand.
No one is whining so i don't know why you have that attitude about it. This is simply a discussion of how life experiences change your perspective and thats why med schools see value in increasing diversity in med schools but ORM students don't get that. If there wasn't such a large amount of Indians going into med school you can bet you'd be included in URM because there's value in you knowing what it's like to be a person of your culture living in our country and how that can affect your health and choices. But because there's so many Indian Americans going into medicine there's no need to encourage your population to go into it like it is for black, hispanic, or lgbt students. Thank you for your perspective but you're just complaining about us because you think we're bitc*ing about something we shouldn't be. Honestly, I would say we should get rid of this policy because obviously ppl like you see no value in it and you'll think I got into med school because I'm URM and not because I really earned it or deserve it.
 
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Did you pay any attention to what the definition of white privilege is? It's not just in reference to money and SE class. Like you mentioned, there's a whole bunch of things you experience that white ppl would never understand.
No one is whining so i don't know why you have that attitude about it. This is simply a discussion of how life experiences change your perspective and thats why med schools see value in increasing diversity in med schools but ORM students don't get that. If there wasn't such a large amount of Indians going into med school you can bet you'd be included in URM because there's value in you knowing what it's like to be a person of your culture living in our country and how that can affect your health and choices. But because there's so many Indian Americans going into medicine there's no need to encourage your population to go into it like it is for black, hispanic, or lgbt students. Thank you for your perspective but you're just complaining about us because you think we're bitc*ing about something we shouldn't be. Honestly, I would say we should get rid of this policy because obviously ppl like you see no value in it and you'll think I got into med school because I'm URM and not because I really earned it or deserve it.
Yes, if people like me = people who can read simple table charts published by AMCAS. In 2013, only 11 of the black students accepted (out of 1,422 black students accepted) had a GPA of 3.6+ and MCAT of 30+. I don't think it's too far out to say that the majority of the rest wouldn't have gotten in without URM-status.

I feel like you, along with many other people, are always whining about the ONE TIME on earth that minorities gain an advantage from something. And before you start quoting statistics there is still an overall 37% overall acceptance rate of all blacks to medical schools in comparison to the 46% of whites. and of those 1422 accepted last year - about 21% of that group is probably at one of the HBCUs which purpose of creation was for discriminated minorities. (lemme guess, its unfair we get to make our own schools b/c we were discriminated against, right?)
please stop whining, all of a sudden its not fair that minorities get all the perks. *rolls eyes*
tomorrow I'm going to hear a new complaint about how come more ppl of other races aren't at HBCUs - same people who probably didn't even know what an HBCU was before the med school application process.

There's institutional affirmative action in every field - technology, politics, education - so I'm not where that comes from. Hell even in some vilified exclusive fields like wall street- there's SEO - Sponsors for Educational Opportunity which is a bigger boost than even URM in med school if you believe it.
 
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Yes, if people like me = people who can read simple table charts published by AMCAS. In 2013, only 11 of the black students accepted (out of 1,422 black students accepted) had a GPA of 3.6+ and MCAT of 30+. I don't think it's too far out to say that the majority of the rest wouldn't have gotten in without URM-status.
QUOTE]

No one is arguing that there isn't an advantage, yes it's easy to see from those charts that it is more likely URM students can get accepted with lower GPAs and MCAT scores. But I'd like to point out that a lot of those students also were SES disadvantaged and that a good portion of those students went to HBCUs or Puerto Rican schools who are the most likely to take low stat applicants because it's part of their mission. Thanks for pointing out the obvious though as if this isn't described in EVERY SINGLE URM thread. I honestly don't get what you're trying to prove here or why you continue to make posts on this thread. I don't care what you say after this point we'll agree to disagree is all I have left to say.
No one is arguing that there isn't an advantage, yes it's easy to see from those charts that it is more likely URM students can get accepted with lower GPAs and MCAT scores. But I'd like to point out that a lot of those students also were SES disadvantaged and that a good portion of those students went to HBCUs or Puerto Rican schools who are the most likely to take low stat applicants because it's part of their mission. Thanks for pointing out the obvious though as if this isn't described in EVERY SINGLE URM thread. I honestly don't get what you're trying to prove here or why you continue to make posts on this thread. I don't care what you say after this point we'll agree to disagree is all I have left to say.
 
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Still after all the "privilege" URMs get in the admissions process, my class only has 5 black students out of 180. Anywho, it is interesting to see the difference in culture between urm and orm families. Many times in urm families expectations for kids are low because of various factors. So as long as a young black man isn't shot dead, selling drugs, in a gang, and finishes HS he is doing well. If he finishes college- wow he's doing really well, if he goes to med school well now hes just showing off and getting to big for his britches. Thats how the AA community treats it. There is not much of a push for high level academics with AAs. For Asian families, they start saving for their child's med school tuition before their child is even born. Asian parents REALLY REALLY value education and push their kids to pursue terminal degrees, and they do everything possible to set their children up for academic success. This leads to Asians being ORM and AA and Hispanic students being URM. Will the culture change anytime soon? Probably not, and if the cultures don't change urm and orm groups will probably always remain the way they are. So don't worry about us 4-5 black people in most med school classes, there will probably always be 0nly a few of us and you will still have 175+seats available. And I was speaking in a general sense, of course there are black families that push their kids to pursue doctoral degrees, and Asian families who are more laid.
 
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Still after all the "privilege" URMs get in the admissions process, my class only has 5 black students out of 180. Anywho, it is interesting to see the difference in culture between urm and orm families. Many times in urm families expectations for kids are low because of various factors. So as long as a young black man isn't shot dead, selling drugs, in a gang, and finishes HS he is doing well. If he finishes college- wow he's doing really well, if he goes to med school well now hes just showing off and getting to big for his britches. Thats how the AA community treats it. There is not much of a push for high level academics with AAs. For Asian families, they start saving for their child's med school tuition before their child is even born. Asian parents REALLY REALLY value education and push their kids to pursue terminal degrees, and they do everything possible to set their children up for academic success. This leads to Asians being ORM and AA and Hispanic students being URM. Will the culture change anytime soon? Probably not, and if the cultures don't change urm and orm groups will probably always remain the way they are. So don't worry about us 4-5 black people in most med school classes, there will probably always be 0nly a few of us and you will still have 175+seats available. And I was speaking in a general sense, of course there are black families that push their kids to pursue doctoral degrees, and Asian families who are more laid.

I have to agree with this, at least from my experience. Both my brothers sold drugs and did time in prison. I was the only one in my immediate family that went to college, and 1 of 2 in my entire family ,that I know of, who graduated. My fam loves the fact that I went to college but I'm willing to bet my car that they couldn't tell you what my major was. They're just happy that I got this far without going to jail (...at-least not for anything serious :angelic:). So, in my situation, the family motivation/expectations were low because they didn't know any better. I had to develop a large degree of self motivation.
 
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Yes, if people like me = people who can read simple table charts published by AMCAS. In 2013, only 11 of the black students accepted (out of 1,422 black students accepted) had a GPA of 3.6+ and MCAT of 30+. I don't think it's too far out to say that the majority of the rest wouldn't have gotten in without URM-status.



There's institutional affirmative action in every field - technology, politics, education - so I'm not where that comes from. Hell even in some vilified exclusive fields like wall street- there's SEO - Sponsors for Educational Opportunity which is a bigger boost than even URM in med school if you believe it.

Bruh, get your math skills up.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/2013factstable25-2.pdf

That's 147 Black applicants with 3.6 and 30+ getting in.

I would be willing to bet that in the top 20 schools there are ~6-8 black kids in each cohort, 8*20=160 - there you go. Chill. There are still more Asian people in my class than total URMs.
 
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I'm a little concerned that some of these individuals will be our colleagues/classmates!

You should be happy to read how many of them feel when protected by relative anonymity. :)
 
Yes, if people like me = people who can read simple table charts published by AMCAS. In 2013, only 11 of the black students accepted (out of 1,422 black students accepted) had a GPA of 3.6+ and MCAT of 30+. I don't think it's too far out to say that the majority of the rest wouldn't have gotten in without URM-status.



There's institutional affirmative action in every field - technology, politics, education - so I'm not where that comes from. Hell even in some vilified exclusive fields like wall street- there's SEO - Sponsors for Educational Opportunity which is a bigger boost than even URM in med school if you believe it.

derr takin err jerrrbs!! As a previous poster already mentioned, your ability to "read simple charts" is atrocious. Lolz
 
I attended 11 interviews...discounting the 2 interviews I did for HBCU programs (Howard and Drew) I saw 2 Latinos and 5 black people at the other 9. Out of what I would imagine was close to 200 people. Very sparse.

Most hispanics I know are white-Hispanic instead of non-white-Hispanic so I can't imagine how you are able to tell that. Furthermore considering that blacks make up 12.8% of the American population and graduate college at a much lower rate and apply to medical school at a much lower rate...could that explain it? Or is it the privileged Asians and whites holding others down?

EDIT: I'm not saying there isn't privilege. But that definitely ain't the main reason you only saw 5 blacks.
 
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Most hispanics I know are white-Hispanic instead of non-white-Hispanic so I can't imagine how you are able to tell that. Furthermore considering that blacks make up 12.8% of the American population and graduate college at a much lower rate and apply to medical school at a much lower rate...could that explain it? Or is it the privileged Asians and whites holding others down?

EDIT: I'm not saying there isn't privilege. But that definitely ain't the main reason you only saw 5 blacks.

If it's not privilege or the lack there of then what is it? Are you suggesting a genetic disposition for blacks being unable to attend medical school?
 
Most hispanics I know are white-Hispanic instead of non-white-Hispanic so I can't imagine how you are able to tell that. Furthermore considering that blacks make up 12.8% of the American population and graduate college at a much lower rate and apply to medical school at a much lower rate...could that explain it? Or is it the privileged Asians and whites holding others down?

EDIT: I'm not saying there isn't privilege. But that definitely ain't the main reason you only saw 5 blacks.
Do you want a shovel to keep digging yourself in that hole, or are you alright with just your hands?
 
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If it's not privilege or the lack there of then what is it? Are you suggesting a genetic disposition for blacks being unable to attend medical school?

'Culture' and everything it encompasses.

How does white or asian privilege ruin a given black student's science test grade, for e.g.? Remember, logic dictates that the simplest answer is the most likely. And tell me if I'm wrong but the typical full-time black college student has as much free time as the typical full-time white or asian student to study.
 
The URM forum started due to the vitriol in the pre-med allo forums when it came to URM topics.

At the time, it was celebrated as a separate space where folks could speak to each other, without the constant distraction of vitriol, so as to build up a sense of progressive conversation.

At the time, it was decided that URM would only include race and ethnicity, despite amcas (where the urm designation started) including economic disadvantage as a reason for being included in the voluntary register. I did not agree with that distinction at the time, coming from a background in feminist movement that fought for such things as AA, from a perspective of seeing the importance of class, sometimes the foundational importance of economic class (the marxist feminists), and how it related to race/sex/ablism/sexuality/etc.

Reading this thread, there is a clear strength of knowledge around the concept of 'privilege', and a grass-roots sharing of the experiences that show privilege in action. There is also a budding nuance of 'intersectionality' coming into play. The word 'intersectionality' has not been used specifically yet, but folks are commenting based on the theoretical perspectives that use it/develop it.

Hopefully this is the safe space to talk of grassroots experiences of intersectionality (like the experience of growing up poor and white) as well as marginalization based on systems of privilege (like the experience of growing up URM/visual minority/people of colour and (likely given this is pre-med....) economically advantaged.....or not (but statistically less likely, unfortunately)

There is research out there on representation of various familial income brackets in medicine, in my med years I was collecting stories of those in medicine who did not come from backgrounds of economic advantage as part of a formal research project connected to the office of equity. it became clear, unfortunately, that as little as has happened in terms of having different colours/races more represented in medicine over the last 40 years, and as much as has happened in terms of having more than just basically one sex/gender, hardly much at all has happened in terms of having folks who have grassroots knowledge of what it means to be poor represented in medicine. Discussions of race and ethnicity outside of medicine often also include discussions of class, as often not being white makes one more likely to be poor, and the race and economics become intersectioning oppressions...but somehow that becomes less so in terms of the folks who get to med school. This is an issue. One that can be uncomfortable to look at, if a person has come from a background of relative economic privilege and yet is also dealing with disadvantage based on race/ethnicity.

There are some difficult questions to ask. If the folks who are disadvantaged based on race and ethnicity are generally from wealthy backgrounds, is this truly an accurate reflection of the communities that are to be served? Is there something getting missed in terms of the whole representation issue, when we blind ourselves to economics? Does asking questions such as these take away from certain important issues in the discussion of privilege that is currently taking place which remains blind to economics but does important work in consciousness-raising among URM med applicants? How can intersectionality and nuance become added value to this conversation on privilege and consciousness raising rather than serve as a distraction?

Here's a link to an article that discusses intersectionality, working off of McIntosh's seminal article that introduced the concept of privilege most broadly so many years ago

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-...vilege-to-a-broke-white-person_b_5269255.html
 
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The URM forum started due to the vitriol in the pre-med allo forums when it came to URM topics.

At the time, it was celebrated as a separate space where folks could speak to each other, without the constant distraction of vitriol, so as to build up a sense of progressive conversation.

At the time, it was decided that URM would only include race and ethnicity, despite amcas (where the urm designation started) including economic disadvantage as a reason for being included in the voluntary register. I did not agree with that distinction at the time, coming from a background in feminist movement that fought for such things as AA, from a perspective of seeing the importance of class, sometimes the foundational importance of economic class (the marxist feminists), and how it related to race/sex/ablism/sexuality/etc.

Reading this thread, there is a clear strength of knowledge around the concept of 'privilege', and a grass-roots sharing of the experiences that show privilege in action. There is also a budding nuance of 'intersectionality' coming into play. The word 'intersectionality' has not been used specifically yet, but folks are commenting based on the theoretical perspectives that use it/develop it.

Hopefully this is the safe space to talk of grassroots experiences of intersectionality (like the experience of growing up poor and white) as well as marginalization based on systems of privilege (like the experience of growing up URM/visual minority/people of colour and (likely given this is pre-med....) economically advantaged.....or not (but statistically less likely, unfortunately)

There is research out there on representation of various familial income brackets in medicine, in my med years I was collecting stories of those in medicine who did not come from backgrounds of economic advantage as part of a formal research project connected to the office of equity. it became clear, unfortunately, that as little as has happened in terms of having different colours/races more represented in medicine over the last 40 years, and as much as has happened in terms of having more than just basically one sex/gender, hardly much at all has happened in terms of having folks who have grassroots knowledge of what it means to be poor represented in medicine. Discussions of race and ethnicity outside of medicine often also include discussions of class, as often not being white makes one more likely to be poor, and the race and economics become intersectioning oppressions...but somehow that becomes less so in terms of the folks who get to med school. This is an issue. One that can be uncomfortable to look at, if a person has come from a background of relative economic privilege and yet is also dealing with disadvantage based on race/ethnicity.

There are some difficult questions to ask. If the folks who are disadvantaged based on race and ethnicity are generally from wealthy backgrounds, is this truly an accurate reflection of the communities that are to be served? Is there something getting missed in terms of the whole representation issue, when we blind ourselves to economics? Does asking questions such as these take away from certain important issues in the discussion of privilege that is currently taking place which remains blind to economics but does important work in consciousness-raising among URM med applicants? How can intersectionality and nuance become added value to this conversation on privilege and consciousness raising rather than serve as a distraction?

Here's a link to an article that discusses intersectionality, working off of McIntosh's seminal article that introduced the concept of privilege most broadly so many years ago

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-crosleycorcoran/explaining-white-privilege-to-a-broke-white-person_b_5269255.html

Whoever you are, I love you, seriously. You get it, you truly do. I would love to do a research project like yours. I may even approach my campus diversity office with the idea.
 
The self-victimizing posts in this thread are amazing.

I'm not going to criticize URM for taking advantage of opportunities, such as Affirmative Action, if they happen to be there.

But dont act like it's fair and that whites and over-represented minorities are a bunch of bitter, ignorant bigots.

The fact of the matter is that many URM actually do get in just because of their ethnic background, despite having lesser CVs/stats than white and ORM peers.

Why is it that Asian families work several jobs and sacrifice everything to get their kids, who bust their asses throughout academic life, dont get the same benefits ? Why is it that all white people are assumed to have this mythical "privilege" . etc.

This system is straight up racist and I am glad Michigan banned it, I can't wait for more states to follow suit.

If you dont want your peers to look down upon you, dont try to play this racist system off as something that belongs within the superstructure of true equal opportunity. Do what you tell white people to do, and accept that you have privilege (except your privilege is literally a law, and white privilege is some social concept that cannot even be applied to the vast majority of white people)
 
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The self-victimizing posts in this thread are amazing.

I'm not going to criticize URM for taking advantage of opportunities, such as Affirmative Action, if they happen to be there.

But dont act like it's fair and that whites and over-represented minorities are a bunch of bitter, ignorant bigots.

The fact of the matter is that many URM actually do get in just because of their ethnic background, despite having lesser CVs/stats than white and ORM peers.

Why is it that Asian families work several jobs and sacrifice everything to get their kids, who bust their asses throughout academic life, dont get the same benefits ? Why is it that all white people are assumed to have this mythical "privilege" . etc.

This system is straight up racist and I am glad Michigan banned it, I can't wait for more states to follow suit.

If you dont want your peers to look down upon you, dont try to play this racist system off as something that belongs within the superstructure of true equal opportunity. Do what you tell white people to do, and accept that you have privilege (except your privilege is literally a law, and white privilege is some social concept that cannot even be applied to the vast majority of white people)

They can't fathom the idea that black's low representation in medicine could....just maybe...possibly...be due to blacks themselves. Everything has to be a third party effect- most commonly "white privilege."

Here's an idea for my black SDN colleagues: instead of complaining about white privilege (which exists- but has no discernible effect on the academic-heavy world of med school admissions) or defending colossal affirmative action - can we look into why blacks do so poorly in high school, college and medical school? Put aside # of black med school interviewees and # of black doctors for a moment and go to first principles that underlie it all: poor academic performance.

Or...just call me a privileged racist (though I'm not white).
 
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They can't fathom the idea that black's low representation in medicine could....just maybe...possibly...be due to blacks themselves. Everything has to be a third party effect- most commonly "white privilege."

Here's an idea for my black SDN colleagues: instead of complaining about white privilege (which exists- but has no discernible effect on the academic-heavy world of med school admissions) or defending colossal affirmative action - can we look into why blacks do so poorly in high school, college and medical school? Put aside # of black med school interviewees and # of black doctors for a moment and go to first principles that underlie it all: poor academic performance.

Or...just call me a privileged racist (though I'm not white).


I almost added these concepts to my post....my sentiments exactly.

I was born and raised in poor areas of NYC where mainly underrepresented minorities lived - same economic situation, going to the same schools, being exposed to the same communities, etc. There was no white oppression that forced anybody to skip class, loaf around on basketball courts all day long, spend welfare checks on designer clothing. When the predominantly white teachers would try to motivate the students, many of the URM students would just ignore them and disrepect them. In fact, the public school system (supposedly run by oppressive whites) taught me, a first-generation non-white American, everything i needed to get a 2350 on the SAT, which netted me a university scholarship. Of course college allowed me to even consider medicine

The academic performance was rarely there among the black students. Nothing stopped the Chinese, Indian, Eastern European, and other groups in that neighbourhood from at least trying.

And, like you said, any privilege is a non-factor in the world of real academia.
 
This will become more interesting as the matches collide.
 
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I really don't get why so many people don't seem to understand the concept of privilege.

Le sigh
It's just a lame term for it imo. I understand it but hate the terminology. White guys aren't privileged so much as they are treated the way that every person of every race and sex should be treated. Saying that a group is privileged implies that they are being afforded something above and beyond what a normal person should be, which implies those special privileges should be taken away. This is both not really a correct way of looking at things and not likely to win many people over, because the very concept of privilege asks people to relinquish it rather than elevating the place of others in society.

I guess it's just a huge beef I have with sociologists in regard to how they view power structures. They often view them as zero sum, with one group having to relinquish power for another to advance. This is too complicated to explain here, particularly with me on a smartphone, but basically it isn't entirely zero sum. Groups can be elevated to a point of equality, which causes a relative loss of power, but not an actual loss of opportunity overall.

Basically, saying being treated like every human being should is being "privileged" is a backwards way of looking at it, in my opinion, and why a lot of people don't get the whole privilege thing on a conceptual level.
 
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I almost added these concepts to my post....my sentiments exactly.

I was born and raised in poor areas of NYC where mainly underrepresented minorities lived - same economic situation, going to the same schools, being exposed to the same communities, etc. There was no white oppression that forced anybody to skip class, loaf around on basketball courts all day long, spend welfare checks on designer clothing. When the predominantly white teachers would try to motivate the students, many of the URM students would just ignore them and disrepect them. In fact, the public school system (supposedly run by oppressive whites) taught me, a first-generation non-white American, everything i needed to get a 2350 on the SAT, which netted me a university scholarship. Of course college allowed me to even consider medicine

The academic performance was rarely there among the black students. Nothing stopped the Chinese, Indian, Eastern European, and other groups in that neighbourhood from at least trying.

And, like you said, any privilege is a non-factor in the world of real academia.

you can't be serious.
was it not just 60 years ago where it was legally mandated that blacks were required to have the same opportunity of education as their white counterparts by integrating schools?
So you think after 100s of years of academic oppression, that in merely 60yrs, academic privilege and oppression has been dissolved?
It was in my fathers generation where he moved to a predominantly white neighborhood with my grandparents and there was a petition signed by the parents of children in his school system to request that him and his brothers and sisters attend another school in the district (predominantly black) because of 'sudden' over capacity at his rightful neighborhood school... this was 35 years ago.

please do not make such ignorant comments. Privilege is probably the biggest factor in academia, whether it is racial or socioeconomic.
 
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It's just a lame term for it imo. I understand it but hate the terminology. White guys aren't privileged so much as they are treated the way that every person of every race and sex should be treated. Saying that a group is privileged implies that they are being afforded something above and beyond what a normal person should be, which implies those special privileges should be taken away. This is both not really a correct way of looking at things and not likely to win many people over, because the very concept of privilege asks people to relinquish it rather than elevating the place of others in society.

I guess it's just a huge beef I have with sociologists in regard to how they view power structures. They often view them as zero sum, with one group having to relinquish power for another to advance. This is too complicated to explain here, particularly with me on a smartphone, but basically it isn't entirely zero sum. Groups can be elevated to a point of equality, which causes a relative loss of power, but not an actual loss of opportunity overall.

Basically, saying being treated like every human being should is being "privileged" is a backwards way of looking at it, in my opinion, and why a lot of people don't get the whole privilege thing on a conceptual level.

I agree but, getting hung up on semantics ignores that there are actual problems and the strong sense of entitlement some have developed.
 
It's just a lame term for it imo. I understand it but hate the terminology. White guys aren't privileged so much as they are treated the way that every person of every race and sex should be treated. Saying that a group is privileged implies that they are being afforded something above and beyond what a normal person should be, which implies those special privileges should be taken away. This is both not really a correct way of looking at things and not likely to win many people over, because the very concept of privilege asks people to relinquish it rather than elevating the place of others in society.

I guess it's just a huge beef I have with sociologists in regard to how they view power structures. They often view them as zero sum, with one group having to relinquish power for another to advance. This is too complicated to explain here, particularly with me on a smartphone, but basically it isn't entirely zero sum. Groups can be elevated to a point of equality, which causes a relative loss of power, but not an actual loss of opportunity overall.

Basically, saying being treated like every human being should is being "privileged" is a backwards way of looking at it, in my opinion, and why a lot of people don't get the whole privilege thing on a conceptual level.

I understand your point of view, however I think the privilege terminology is implying that another individual is being afforded more than what a normal individual is being afforded not what they should be afforded. I think the term white privilege is just an acknowledgment that ie. a white man is receiving more than his minority counterparts (this can even be stretched in gender privilege).

white privilege terminology is not saying that certain privileges should be taken away, it is purely acknowledging that the privilege is there. The actions after acknowledgement through the terminology is a completely different topic. I don't think sociologists are stating that being treated like how every human being should be treated is a privilege, they are saying that people aren't being treated like how a normal human being should be treated, therefore a privilege construct is unknowingly created.
What we do about that acknowledgement afterwards is in our hands, because there are still individuals out there that think in a mere 60 yrs, inequality has been dissolved.
 
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The best way to deal with problems is to approach them correctly. It is more than just semantics.

It's not a problem for those enjoying the benefits that come from generations of correct treatment.
 
It's not a problem for those enjoying the benefits that come from generations of correct treatment.
Inequality is a problem for everyone. Once it reaches a certain level, nations generally begin to decline or dissolve. If America is to exist in 200 years, we need to fix the issue of profound inequality in an increasingly diverse society.

Unfortunately, millennials generally only tend to give a **** about themselves, so whether such change will come to pass in an increasingly self-centered society is something only time will tell.
 
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Inequality is a problem for everyone. Once it reaches a certain level, nations generally begin to decline or dissolve. If America is to exist in 200 years, we need to fix the issue of profound inequality in an increasingly diverse society.

Unfortunately, millennials generally only tend to give a **** about themselves, so whether such change will come to pass in an increasingly self-centered society is something only time will tell.

It'll get worse once people realize the only color that matters in America is green.

Eventually someone will get bored enough to whine about ORMs (Over Represented Majority) doctors in and how combining the match (and opening a ton of new schools) changed the face of medicine too much.
 
a question to ask yourself - if blacks are so privileged, would you trade places with a black person in america?

If, by "trade places", you mean keep everything else the same except my ethnic background and the ethic background i was raised as - then of course I would.

I would be in a Top 5 medical school, be eligible for URM scholarships, wouldnt have had to work as hard to go to college for free, etc.

Compared to a first generation Afghan-American, black people have tons of privilege. And they even have privilege compared to most white Americans.

you can't be serious.
was it not just 60 years ago where it was legally mandated that blacks were required to have the same opportunity of education as their white counterparts by integrating schools?
So you think after 100s of years of academic oppression, that in merely 60yrs, academic privilege and oppression has been dissolved?
It was in my fathers generation where he moved to a predominantly white neighborhood with my grandparents and there was a petition signed by the parents of children in his school system to request that him and his brothers and sisters attend another school in the district (predominantly black) because of 'sudden' over capacity at his rightful neighborhood school... this was 35 years ago.

please do not make such ignorant comments. Privilege is probably the biggest factor in academia, whether it is racial or socioeconomic.

I do think that academic privilege and oppression has been, for the most part, dissolved, because I have experienced it. On top of this, there are minorities in top positions all over the country (Obama, Indian physicians, Chinese, black and Indian politicians, etc). Go to any decent university and you'll find that they take graduate students, whether it's a white American from Iowa or a guy from India, if they have what it takes.

I also don't care about your father's generation since 35 years is a long time and America changes at a very rapid pace.

Chinese people were once treated poorly and exploited in American society (only ~60 years ago as well). Doesnt stop them from utilizing America's free education system and succeeding. Nigerians are also black, yet as a subgroup they are near the top in terms of income in the US.

It's time to look at the real reason certain minorities are "underrepresented" - generally poor academic performance. It's easy for people, especially certain self-victimizing blacks, to ignore this and blame it on others. If black people were truly oppressed, they wouldnt be given opportunities to dominate American sports and athletics for millions of dollars.

Finally, the way to reach equal opportunity is not to set up quotas lol. Quotas are literally the opposite of equal opportunity. The way to propagate equal opportunity is to make sure the law protects individuals against illegal discrimination, which it does much more than it doesnt.
 
If, by "trade places", you mean keep everything else the same except my ethnic background and the ethic background i was raised as - then of course I would.

I would be in a Top 5 medical school, be eligible for URM scholarships, wouldnt have had to work as hard to go to college for free, etc.

Compared to a first generation Afghan-American, black people have tons of privilege. And they even have privilege compared to most white Americans.



I do think that academic privilege and oppression has been, for the most part, dissolved, because I have experienced it. On top of this, there are minorities in top positions all over the country (Obama, Indian physicians, Chinese, black and Indian politicians, etc). Go to any decent university and you'll find that they take graduate students, whether it's a white American from Iowa or a guy from India, if they have what it takes.

I also don't care about your father's generation since 35 years is a long time and America changes at a very rapid pace.

Chinese people were once treated poorly and exploited in American society (only ~60 years ago as well). Doesnt stop them from utilizing America's free education system and succeeding. Nigerians are also black, yet as a subgroup they are near the top in terms of income in the US.

It's time to look at the real reason certain minorities are "underrepresented" - generally poor academic performance. It's easy for people, especially certain self-victimizing blacks, to ignore this and blame it on others. If black people were truly oppressed, they wouldnt be given opportunities to dominate American sports and athletics for millions of dollars.

Finally, the way to reach equal opportunity is not to set up quotas lol. Quotas are literally the opposite of equal opportunity. The way to propagate equal opportunity is to make sure the law protects individuals against illegal discrimination, which it does much more than it doesnt.

I will just leave this article here.
Have a good day, sir. I hope the way you treat your future patients will not be reflective of the opinions you hold on why they are in a certain life situation.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...protect-them-from-discrimination-i-was-wrong/
 
Is anyone naive enough to believe the sentiment stops after pre-allo?
 
I will just leave this article here.
Have a good day, sir. I hope the way you treat your future patients will not be reflective of the opinions you hold on why they are in a certain life situation.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...protect-them-from-discrimination-i-was-wrong/

I'm confused as to why an educated man would assume it was possible to shield a child from all mean statements in a society. His kid was 15 the first time he had a racial encounter with an idiot? He did pretty good. I've been called all sorts of things too. People in society can be dumb, mean, ignorant and have any number of other sad traits. But none of those people can stop him, or his son, from buying that home if he earns the money...or getting into that school if he gets the grades...or running for office if he makes the connections. America works reasonably well.

The list of instructions was odd, because I do a great deal of those things as well. I don't trust the police to not shoot me and I'm a conservative looking white guy.

He really lost me though with calling out martin (who was shown in court to be assaulting someone) and brown (court pending, but who by news reports caused an orbital fracture in an officer)...
 
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I will just leave this article here.
Have a good day, sir. I hope the way you treat your future patients will not be reflective of the opinions you hold on why they are in a certain life situation.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...protect-them-from-discrimination-i-was-wrong/


lmao. So some racist pricks on the road = white privilege and oppression of blacks?

White people are called names (and jumped) in black neighbourhoods, including where I grew up. Black people are called names like seen in this article. It happens - racist dinguses exist in the world. That doesnt justify the Federal Government sanctioning illegal discrimination in the form of Affirmative Action. Affirmative Action doesnt protect against illegal discrimination. It just gives an unfair advantage

This thread is about how URM are given an un-Constitutional advantage, not racist dinguses on the street. The funniest part of that article is that the IVY league parents expected the dean of the school to do something about two bums in a car lol.

I've been called "terrorist" before, and I've been profiled by the police in post 9/11 NYC. Where is my affirmative action advantage huh? O wait, it has nothing to do with illegal discrimination
 
I usually don’t respond much on these comments because those that feel the need to interrupt an exchange between peers of their life experiences and their own feelings with unnecessary aggression, baseless accusations tend to be the stubborn types that avoid logical exchanges and insist on flame wars. Furthermore the tendency of pre-meds to proudly tout their lack of experience and education in the humanities (for the more “legitimate” degrees), means you are dealing with a group who by and large are severely lacking in the understanding of human thought and behavior, the effects of culture, social oppression, societal biases, economic status, class, and much more on success.

However, I think some shockingly low levels of societal and self-awareness are being exhibited here that could benefit from discussion. (And because I have some free time atm..)

The self-victimizing posts in this thread are amazing.
I'm not going to criticize URM for taking advantage of opportunities, such as Affirmative Action, if they happen to be there.
But dont act like it's fair and that whites and over-represented minorities are a bunch of bitter, ignorant bigots.
The fact of the matter is that many URM actually do get in just because of their ethnic background, despite having lesser CVs/stats than white and ORM peers.
Why is it that Asian families work several jobs and sacrifice everything to get their kids, who bust their asses throughout academic life, dont get the same benefits ? Why is it that all white people are assumed to have this mythical "privilege" . etc.
This system is straight up racist and I am glad Michigan banned it, I can't wait for more states to follow suit.

If you dont want your peers to look down upon you, dont try to play this racist system off as something that belongs within the superstructure of true equal opportunity. Do what you tell white people to do, and accept that you have privilege (except your privilege is literally a law, and white privilege is some social concept that cannot even be applied to the vast majority of white people)

Let’s dissect this quote...
I have followed this thread from the beginning I am quite sure not a single person has, at any point, said that 1.)Affirmative Action is the most just policy that has come to existence. 2.)Discussed Affirmative Action in particular at any great length at all, since that is not the topic here, and arguably irrelevant, or 3.) Asserted that all whites and ORMs are “bunch of bitter, ignorant bigots”. Your allegation of third point is particularly interesting, you seem offended by the thought that people in this thread would accuse whites and ORMs of being bitter and prejudice, and dismissive of those that have experienced the sentiments of these groups throughout their lives.

URMs get in with lesser CVs/stats than their peers (whites and ORMs). This point is moot because medical admission is not a meritocracy. There exists a minimum threshold by which medical schools have determined correlates to successive completion. On the objective end, last I remember this was a mid 20 MCAT score, for GPA this is harder to target due to lack of standardization, but let’s just say for argument sake it’s a 3.0. That means ANY person, for ANY reason, deemed acceptable by the admission committee of a specific school can choose to accept a student with a lesser CV than their peers. In fact, we all know that a considerable number of people are accepted with lower stats URM and not, otherwise the average GPA of X School couldn’t be a 3.6 if there are 4 URMs in that class right?

Okay but the URMs are more likely to be accepted with lower stats than their peers. Well what other trends exist on average among these groups?
URMs are more likely to have been brought up in poverty, they are more likely to have attended subpar schools from early childhood education through high school (inner city schools, etc) more likely to have not had any early childhood education prior to the available public K, more likely to have been the victim of abuse (verbal, physical and sexual), more likely to have been raised by teenage parents, more likely to have many more siblings in their household = less attention on their individual rearing. All of these not only negatively impact your ability to learn and perform, but may exclude one from even having the chance to learn. The stats and CV you discuss are a product of available opportunities from birth to time of application, opportunities that are far out of reach for most URMs. I’m sure I don’t have to go into great detail here, but those awesome summer research assistantships, internships, facilities, even the basics of have a computer to use in high school, are not attainable for the average URM. With all these disadvantages, on average do you think their CVs will be stacked?

They can't fathom the idea that black's low representation in medicine could....just maybe...possibly...be due to blacks themselves. Everything has to be a third party effect- most commonly "white privilege."
Here's an idea for my black SDN colleagues: instead of complaining about white privilege (which exists- but has no discernible effect on the academic-heavy world of med school admissions) or defending colossal affirmative action - can we look into why blacks do so poorly in high school, college and medical school? Put aside # of black med school interviewees and # of black doctors for a moment and go to first principles that underlie it all: poor academic performance.
Or...just call me a privileged racist (though I'm not white).

Can you share the source where blacks perform poorly in medical school?

I’m not going to touch on how you target blacks here, as that speaks for itself, surely you know URM encompasses more than the black community. I’m also sure you know that self-aware non-blacks, whether they are other minorities themselves, ORMs, or whites, are capable of recognizing racism around them and the opportunities afforded to them as a non-disadvantaged groups leading them to “complain” about the inequalities that exist in this society. (As has been done in this thread)
What we have here is a common occurrence in biased judgment; fundamental attribution error. Yes, there is always a degree to which an individual’s own choices impacts their success. But to dismiss entirely the external factors at work in an individual’s success shows you have a very limited understanding of the very basic concepts of human behavior and society’s role in an individual’s success. Furthermore, this argument is flawed to begin with, because racism and white privilege did in fact systemically exclude minority groups for medicine and other professions regardless of the exhibited academic performance of the applicant. Blacks barred from medical schools so yes there low representation is a byproduct of institutionalized oppression.
To use your own words, put aside the number of black doctors and go to first principles that underlie it all: unequal educational system.

Honestly, this part is almost laughable gender inequality faced the same issues of underrepresentation. Medical schools for women, much like HBCUs, had to combat the years of institutionalized prejudice that prevented enrollment of women in medical school’s prior to the 70s. As a consequence, these schools had much lower admission standards, because their mission was to get more women into the field, yet they produced competent doctors. After the laws prohibiting gender discrimination in medical school’s in the early 70s and the women’s movements, many more schools began accepting women, with lower stats than their male counterparts. Why? Well when you have thousands of males competing for these positions, which they have arguably been groomed to do, and women who had been denied the education and preparation for such a field, they did not have such outstanding CVs and stats as their male counterparts. Was the low representation of women not a product of “male privilege”? More accurately, “white male privilege”, since these women were still white fighting for equal representation with whites, and American had long deemed the hierarchy white male>white female> minorities (black males~females).

I almost added these concepts to my post....my sentiments exactly.
I was born and raised in poor areas of NYC where mainly underrepresented minorities lived - same economic situation, going to the same schools, being exposed to the same communities, etc. There was no white oppression that forced anybody to skip class, loaf around on basketball courts all day long, spend welfare checks on designer clothing. When the predominantly white teachers would try to motivate the students, many of the URM students would just ignore them and disrepect them. In fact, the public school system (supposedly run by oppressive whites) taught me, a first-generation non-white American, everything i needed to get a 2350 on the SAT, which netted me a university scholarship. Of course college allowed me to even consider medicine
The academic performance was rarely there among the black students. Nothing stopped the Chinese, Indian, Eastern European, and other groups in that neighbourhood from at least trying.
And, like you said, any privilege is a non-factor in the world of real academia.

Again, lack of awareness. You, as a first generation American cannot compare or equate your experience in a low-income minority neighborhood to those that have lived in those neighborhoods for generations. There was no white oppression that forced people to skip class, true. But guess what, generational oppression has proved time and time again to minorities that no matter how hard they try they would never get accepted, they would never get that job interview, much less the actual position, they would never be respected for their ideas, and they will always be perceived in a negative light. What is the product of that oppression? You get a new generation of children in the ghetto who fully believe the ghetto is all they can aspire to. They have parents and grandparents that were scorned and scrutinized, and are still there in the ghetto. Their parents have little faith in the world, do you think they realistically present the rainbow imagery of “son, you can be whatever you want to be!”. No, the picture is more like, “son, no matter what you do or hard you try they will never accept you, no one cares about you”. They don’t see the America, or the world for that sake as filled with opportunities waiting to be grasped with eyes wide open as an immigrant family does. This is the product of entrenched racism that becomes internalized, this leads one to hate, and expect little of themselves.

There is a huge difference in mindset and perspective. I am a first generation immigrant, but I am black. I lived in low economic neighborhood, I went to a predominantly black high school, and I saw many times the type of students you describe (skipping class, etc.). I had the intrinsic motivation to work hard, get good grades, perform well, and I didn’t have any of the internal syndromes of generational oppression. I had a parent that expected nothing less than good grades, worked 3 jobs at a time to provide, and though scorned by America as an immigrant, still continually tried to do better. The environment in my home, though economically similar, was did not exhibit the same attitudes and perspectives as non-immigrant families in that neighborhood. Still, I faced the same external hurdles to success that are based on racial prejudice that the native minorities do. My experience was therefore similar in many ways, difference in many ways than an African-American, after-all we look similar, but still there were stark differences in how we approached those challenges, and our ability to overcome them.
My white, German-American husband also went to the same high school, lived in a better neighborhood at the time (though a similarly minority neighborhood in earlier years) and we had entirely different experiences, and perceptions of teachers and administration. The difference in our race played a key role in how teachers interacted with us, whether or not they wanted to mentor us, what opportunities were presented to us, the benefit of the doubt we were given, and much more. If we were to narrate our high school years to you, you would think I went to school in Alabama or something with bigots, where it was impossible to succeed and he went to some fancy private school, where teachers bent over backwards to help him.

Just to add: your statement of spending welfare checks on designer clothing is presumptive at the least. How do you know someone gets welfare checks? You opened them for your neighbors? How do you know they were not fakes? You took their clothing and analyzed the stitching and logos? I highly doubt a minority person explicitly told you that they get welfare checks and that they use that income to buy designer clothing. You might want to take some time and reflect on why you would say something so prejudicial, but are so defensive of being called as such?

If, by "trade places", you mean keep everything else the same except my ethnic background and the ethic background i was raised as - then of course I would.
I would be in a Top 5 medical school, be eligible for URM scholarships, wouldnt have had to work as hard to go to college for free, etc.
Compared to a first generation Afghan-American, black people have tons of privilege. And they even have privilege compared to most white Americans.
I do think that academic privilege and oppression has been, for the most part, dissolved, because I have experienced it. On top of this, there are minorities in top positions all over the country (Obama, Indian physicians, Chinese, black and Indian politicians, etc). Go to any decent university and you'll find that they take graduate students, whether it's a white American from Iowa or a guy from India, if they have what it takes.
I also don't care about your father's generation since 35 years is a long time and America changes at a very rapid pace.
Chinese people were once treated poorly and exploited in American society (only ~60 years ago as well). Doesnt stop them from utilizing America's free education system and succeeding. Nigerians are also black, yet as a subgroup they are near the top in terms of income in the US.
It's time to look at the real reason certain minorities are "underrepresented" - generally poor academic performance. It's easy for people, especially certain self-victimizing blacks, to ignore this and blame it on others. If black people were truly oppressed, they wouldnt be given opportunities to dominate American sports and athletics for millions of dollars.
Finally, the way to reach equal opportunity is not to set up quotas lol. Quotas are literally the opposite of equal opportunity. The way to propagate equal opportunity is to make sure the law protects individuals against illegal discrimination, which it does much more than it doesnt.

First off trading places with an African American does not mean at the point where you would apply to medical school. Sorry it does not work like that, changing your ethnicity means you get all the advantages and disadvantages of that group from birth, not selectively the admission to medical school. The question is rather, would you opt to have been born into an African American family, raised here and subject to the life of a typical African American. Guess what if that was your life you would likely never reach the point of applying to medical school. The disadvantages of being African American in America far surpass the advantages of med school admissions and scholarships. Again, awareness is severely lacking.
You wouldn’t have to work as hard in college? This also ties in with an earlier comment that said all groups have the same free time in college. This is likely false, since on average you would probably be working fulltime to help take care of your home, provide for your siblings, and pay for your own education as an African-American. More likely, you wouldn’t have been used to the system of education in university as your elementary, middle, and secondary education would have rendered you unprepared for that academic environment. You would begin your college education significantly below your white/ORM counterparts.
Go to inner city public high schools in Chicago, LA, NY, Detroit, and D.C., and come back and let me know how academic privilege and oppression has been dissolved. You lack understanding of the public school system. Oppression cannot be dissolved if unequal educational systems are persisting throughout America. The quality of teaching in a minority neighborhood on average is far from equal than that in a suburban white neighborhood. Look at the available of technology such as computer labs, functional libraries, AP/IB courses, SAT prep courses, high school subject proficiency assessments, level of experience of the teachers, compensation of said teachers, level of college counseling and a vast amount of other measures and it would be readily apparent that the difference between the two types of school systems are far from equal. Your experience of getting a 2340 on a SAT (umm aptitude test) does not prove that that school was equal. Besides n=1, it does not give causation or attribution to whether your performance was a result of the education given in school, what was learned within your home, your natural intelligence, your standardized testing abilities, etc.

America does not change at a rapid pace, this is apparent in our broken healthcare system, our ineffective political system, or severely lacking judicial system, our backward social expectations, and our fundamental lack of cultural competency. The only thing that changes rapidly in America is technology, is that the measure you use for ethical issues?

Surely, you are not suggesting that because we have a black president means racism prejudice, and minority exclusion in positions of power does not exist?

You’ve also supported the idea deep-rooted oppression in your example of Nigerians, the immigrant mindset, is distinct from that of the group that has been oppressed for generations, even though they share skin pigment.

For this last part, it’s hard to not be completely disgusted at the comment that “If black people were truly oppressed, they wouldnt be given opportunities to dominate American sports and athletics for millions of dollars.” This is just deplorable. You clearly have no understanding of American history. As discussed earlier, blacks have been systematically barred from many professions over the course of American history. Sports and entertainment industry was one of the earliest to become tolerant of blacks, only because of the huge financial advantages they provided to white businessmen. Boxing for example, was one of the first to allow blacks. You believe a sport that allowed bigoted white men to take advantage of young black men, pay them a fraction of their worth and watch them physically hurt each other is a gracious opportunity that blacks have been afforded? Many equate this to the attitude that blacks could only serve a role of entertainment for whites, but not as educators or positions of power. Still, racial discrimination was persistent black athletes were not compensated as much as whites. Sports are a true meritocracy. Blacks are not given opportunities to dominate sports, the best athlete makes the team, and the best athlete wins the game. There is no affirmative action blessing young, black kids like a fairy godmother with the opportunity to compete at the collegiate or professional level, it is a product of their physical ability. Take a poor black child in the hood that is athletic, offer him money to entertain the nation and make you even more money, he would be too centered on the fact that he is earning something to realize the inherent oppression and exploitation that is being done. He eventually makes more money than he could have imagined as a child in the ghetto. Finally, the reason you see so many black men in professional sports like basketball and football is because of this history of exploitation has led to a high valuation of sport professions in young minds. Children in poverty stricken areas have it ingrained in them that the only way to upward elevation is through a sport, or some other form of entertainment (singing, rapping, etc.).
 
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^I kind of love you. I want to unlike that just so I can like it again
 
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Let’s dissect this quote...
I have followed this thread from the beginning I am quite sure not a single person has, at any point, said that 1.)Affirmative Action is the most just policy that has come to existence. 2.)Discussed Affirmative Action in particular at any great length at all, since that is not the topic here, and arguably irrelevant, or 3.) Asserted that all whites and ORMs are “bunch of bitter, ignorant bigots”. Your allegation of third point is particularly interesting, you seem offended by the thought that people in this thread would accuse whites and ORMs of being bitter and prejudice, and dismissive of those that have experienced the sentiments of these groups throughout their lives.

Regarding 1) Something is either just or unjust. Affirmative Action is unjust, and therefore shouldnt be supported by any government based on Anglo-American principles (ie, the US government).

Re 2) The OP says right there in the first sentence "URM advantage", the hallmark of which is AA

Re 3) Youre right, I could have worded that better. I mean that any white or ORM who criticizes the AA, which is what this the population this topic is about.

URMs get in with lesser CVs/stats than their peers (whites and ORMs). This point is moot because medical admission is not a meritocracy. There exists a minimum threshold by which medical schools have determined correlates to successive completion. On the objective end, last I remember this was a mid 20 MCAT score, for GPA this is harder to target due to lack of standardization, but let’s just say for argument sake it’s a 3.0. That means ANY person, for ANY reason, deemed acceptable by the admission committee of a specific school can choose to accept a student with a lesser CV than their peers. In fact, we all know that a considerable number of people are accepted with lower stats URM and not, otherwise the average GPA of X School couldn’t be a 3.6 if there are 4 URMs in that class right?

Okay but the URMs are more likely to be accepted with lower stats than their peers. Well what other trends exist on average among these groups?
URMs are more likely to have been brought up in poverty, they are more likely to have attended subpar schools from early childhood education through high school (inner city schools, etc) more likely to have not had any early childhood education prior to the available public K, more likely to have been the victim of abuse (verbal, physical and sexual), more likely to have been raised by teenage parents, more likely to have many more siblings in their household = less attention on their individual rearing. All of these not only negatively impact your ability to learn and perform, but may exclude one from even having the chance to learn. The stats and CV you discuss are a product of available opportunities from birth to time of application, opportunities that are far out of reach for most URMs. I’m sure I don’t have to go into great detail here, but those awesome summer research assistantships, internships, facilities, even the basics of have a computer to use in high school, are not attainable for the average URM. With all these disadvantages, on average do you think their CVs will be stacked?

well that is the problem exactly. Public medical schools should be meritocracies , because they are run by a government based on the principles of equal opportunity. A fact of a regulated-capitalist and libertarian society is that not everyone will be on equal financial or social footing. The role of the federal government is to ensure that, in spite of these differences, individual has access to the same opportunities. Looking at how represented a race of people is, and applying quotas and advantages that take into account only race (while ignoring truly relevant factors such as financial and social environment) is nothing but racist and oppressive (to use terms AA advocates understand).

If you want to fix the issue, you do it by addressing why URM do not excel as much as other groups in academics.





Can you share the source where blacks perform poorly in medical school?

Did I say that they perform poorly in medical school? I said that blacks don't perform as well in academics, in general, than other groups. That is a widely documented fact. Basically, they dont perform as well as other groups, which explains for them being being deemed "underrepresented" in medical school etc.

I’m not going to touch on how you target blacks here, as that speaks for itself, surely you know URM encompasses more than the black community. I’m also sure you know that self-aware non-blacks, whether they are other minorities themselves, ORMs, or whites, are capable of recognizing racism around them and the opportunities afforded to them as a non-disadvantaged groups leading them to “complain” about the inequalities that exist in this society. (As has been done in this thread)

I dont actively target blacks. If you really did read all the posts, I started with all URM. It just so happens that specific discussion and examples led to blacks.

What we have here is a common occurrence in biased judgment; fundamental attribution error. Yes, there is always a degree to which an individual’s own choices impacts their success. But to dismiss entirely the external factors at work in an individual’s success shows you have a very limited understanding of the very basic concepts of human behavior and society’s role in an individual’s success. Furthermore, this argument is flawed to begin with, because racism and white privilege did in fact systemically exclude minority groups for medicine and other professions regardless of the exhibited academic performance of the applicant. Blacks barred from medical schools so yes there low representation is a byproduct of institutionalized oppression.
To use your own words, put aside the number of black doctors and go to first principles that underlie it all: unequal educational system.

Sorry, there is no fundamental attribution of error. External factors play a role in every single individual's existence, whether it be a catholic priest or a terrorist in Pakistan.

We all know how whites were racist back in the day. All that matters, in terms of whether the practices currently in place are fair, is today's society.

Only self-victimizing people think that today's public education system is racially oppressive. A great example of this is where I live - NYC. URM groups are getting upset that they are not being accepted to NYC's top public schools....because they can't score as high on tests lol. Meanwhile, these schools are dominated by Asians who come from poor families lol. These URM groups dont realize that these Asians spend their childhoods studying and working hard just so that they are prepared when the time of the admission test comes. Why should an URM be allowed admission without putting in the effort? Just because he's lucky enough to be of a different race? lol

Same thing with medical school, except the idea of oppression at that level is even more absurd. If youre thinking of medical school to begin with, you are already in a university. No state medical school is going to sit there and reject qualified individual he's black lol.

Honestly, this part is almost laughable gender inequality faced the same issues of underrepresentation. Medical schools for women, much like HBCUs, had to combat the years of institutionalized prejudice that prevented enrollment of women in medical school’s prior to the 70s. As a consequence, these schools had much lower admission standards, because their mission was to get more women into the field, yet they produced competent doctors. After the laws prohibiting gender discrimination in medical school’s in the early 70s and the women’s movements, many more schools began accepting women, with lower stats than their male counterparts. Why? Well when you have thousands of males competing for these positions, which they have arguably been groomed to do, and women who had been denied the education and preparation for such a field, they did not have such outstanding CVs and stats as their male counterparts. Was the low representation of women not a product of “male privilege”? More accurately, “white male privilege”, since these women were still white fighting for equal representation with whites, and American had long deemed the hierarchy white male>white female> minorities (black males~females).



Again, lack of awareness. You, as a first generation American cannot compare or equate your experience in a low-income minority neighborhood to those that have lived in those neighborhoods for generations. There was no white oppression that forced people to skip class, true. But guess what, generational oppression has proved time and time again to minorities that no matter how hard they try they would never get accepted, they would never get that job interview, much less the actual position, they would never be respected for their ideas, and they will always be perceived in a negative light. What is the product of that oppression? You get a new generation of children in the ghetto who fully believe the ghetto is all they can aspire to. They have parents and grandparents that were scorned and scrutinized, and are still there in the ghetto. Their parents have little faith in the world, do you think they realistically present the rainbow imagery of “son, you can be whatever you want to be!”. No, the picture is more like, “son, no matter what you do or hard you try they will never accept you, no one cares about you”. They don’t see the America, or the world for that sake as filled with opportunities waiting to be grasped with eyes wide open as an immigrant family does. This is the product of entrenched racism that becomes internalized, this leads one to hate, and expect little of themselves.

If someone is foolish enough to believe that the ghetto is all they can be, then that's his problem.

In fact, when you posted this paragraph, you pretty much confirm everything me and others in this thread have been saying - in the vast majority of instances, there is no oppression against URM in today's society, there is no white privilege. The cause of URM not excelling as much as other groups is themselves and whatever culture you just described. Relatively speaking, they dont study as hard, work as hard, try as hard as the others, and THAT is the reason - you just said it yourself.

Constitutional values are based on the concept of the autonomous individual - the individual who can be free from coercion while being responsible for any and all of his actions, or lack thereof. And here you are trying to imply that whites and ORM have to pay the price for a culure they have nothing to do with.

There is a huge difference in mindset and perspective. I am a first generation immigrant, but I am black. I lived in low economic neighborhood, I went to a predominantly black high school, and I saw many times the type of students you describe (skipping class, etc.). I had the intrinsic motivation to work hard, get good grades, perform well, and I didn’t have any of the internal syndromes of generational oppression. I had a parent that expected nothing less than good grades, worked 3 jobs at a time to provide, and though scorned by America as an immigrant, still continually tried to do better. The environment in my home, though economically similar, was did not exhibit the same attitudes and perspectives as non-immigrant families in that neighborhood. Still, I faced the same external hurdles to success that are based on racial prejudice that the native minorities do. My experience was therefore similar in many ways, difference in many ways than an African-American, after-all we look similar, but still there were stark differences in how we approached those challenges, and our ability to overcome them.
My white, German-American husband also went to the same high school, lived in a better neighborhood at the time (though a similarly minority neighborhood in earlier years) and we had entirely different experiences, and perceptions of teachers and administration. The difference in our race played a key role in how teachers interacted with us, whether or not they wanted to mentor us, what opportunities were presented to us, the benefit of the doubt we were given, and much more. If we were to narrate our high school years to you, you would think I went to school in Alabama or something with bigots, where it was impossible to succeed and he went to some fancy private school, where teachers bent over backwards to help him.

If you were neglected, in any way, due to race, you should have sued the jurisdiction. Your case, or any other similar case, doesnt justify Affirmative Action. People forget that the U.S. is based on individuals. An individual is wronged, then it is the individual's and the perpetrator's problems. It is not the problem of some poor Chinese kid who worked 10x harder, for whatever reason, than any other URM and doesnt get chosen over a URM simply due to race.

Just to add: your statement of spending welfare checks on designer clothing is presumptive at the least. How do you know someone gets welfare checks? You opened them for your neighbors? How do you know they were not fakes? You took their clothing and analyzed the stitching and logos? I highly doubt a minority person explicitly told you that they get welfare checks and that they use that income to buy designer clothing. You might want to take some time and reflect on why you would say something so prejudicial, but are so defensive of being called as such?

lol because almost everyone where I lived was on welfare....I'm just speaking about my experience. brag about their parents getting "paid" in the mail lol. A lot of them probably were fakes but they still paid good money for them. You know how much money people were throwing around for different things. Nowadays I still see people swiping EBT cards while having smart phones with data plans and jordans. When I was a volunteer EMT-B I knew who had what kind of insurance, what the "regulars'" situations were, etc. Finally, you see even more of this kind of thing in inner city Emergency Departments. I'm not being prejudicial at all, that was meant to be more of my experiences, and i'm speaking in general terms, obviously not trying to say something about every individual about a specific group.





First off trading places with an African American does not mean at the point where you would apply to medical school. Sorry it does not work like that, changing your ethnicity means you get all the advantages and disadvantages of that group from birth, not selectively the admission to medical school. The question is rather, would you opt to have been born into an African American family, raised here and subject to the life of a typical African American. Guess what if that was your life you would likely never reach the point of applying to medical school. The disadvantages of being African American in America far surpass the advantages of med school admissions and scholarships. Again, awareness is severely lacking.

Stop saying that my awareness is lacking when it is you who do not even understand what Affirmative Action is. I say only switching my race because that's all Affirmative Action takes into account - it doesnt take into account anything else, ie the truly relevant factors. It literally does not differentiate from a millionaire black person like the one in that article posted earlier, and a black person living in poverty.

"advantages and disadvantages from birth [for black people]" - what does this mean? Not all black people are born and raised in the hood so not all of them have the same advantages and disadvantages. There is nothing absurd about me having the same upbringing except that I'd be black. The culture of disillusionment and negativity that you described earlier is not a defining factor of being black.


You wouldn’t have to work as hard in college? This also ties in with an earlier comment that said all groups have the same free time in college. This is likely false, since on average you would probably be working fulltime to help take care of your home, provide for your siblings, and pay for your own education as an African-American. More likely, you wouldn’t have been used to the system of education in university as your elementary, middle, and secondary education would have rendered you unprepared for that academic environment. You would begin your college education significantly below your white/ORM counterparts.
Go to inner city public high schools in Chicago, LA, NY, Detroit, and D.C., and come back and let me know how academic privilege and oppression has been dissolved. You lack understanding of the public school system. Oppression cannot be dissolved if unequal educational systems are persisting throughout America. The quality of teaching in a minority neighborhood on average is far from equal than that in a suburban white neighborhood. Look at the available of technology such as computer labs, functional libraries, AP/IB courses, SAT prep courses, high school subject proficiency assessments, level of experience of the teachers, compensation of said teachers, level of college counseling and a vast amount of other measures and it would be readily apparent that the difference between the two types of school systems are far from equal. Your experience of getting a 2340 on a SAT (umm aptitude test) does not prove that that school was equal. Besides n=1, it does not give causation or attribution to whether your performance was a result of the education given in school, what was learned within your home, your natural intelligence, your standardized testing abilities, etc.

Nobody is forcing anybody to take care of family, or for education without loans. Ask any Chinese, Indian, Bangladeshi, Afghan, Russian, Pakistani, Korean etc person from poor background (there are a lot where I'm from) - they make huge sacrifices for education. We are faced with the same issues as poor URM.

I literally was born and raised in inner city NYC, and everyone gets a fair chance here. Everything from after school programs in almost all schools, free tutoring, caring and competent teachers, immense financial aid, computers, libraries, etc. n=/=1 because I am not the only one. My SAT score was obviously above the norm, but what I was trying to say that everything that you need for it is offered and taught in school. All you need for that test - basic knowledge of math, basic knowledge of grammar, and the ability to read



America does not change at a rapid pace, this is apparent in our broken healthcare system, our ineffective political system, or severely lacking judicial system, our backward social expectations, and our fundamental lack of cultural competency. The only thing that changes rapidly in America is technology, is that the measure you use for ethical issues?

Surely, you are not suggesting that because we have a black president means racism prejudice, and minority exclusion in positions of power does not exist?

lol America changes at an extremely rapid place and the poorest American is better off and less oppressed than most of the world.

The healthcare system is broken because a self-victimizer apologist, President Obama, forgot to remove the middle man - insurance companies.

Judicial system is more robust than 99% of the world; and to augment its effectiveness, American society does not hesitate to criticize itself and address polarizing topics.

Our social expectations, A) dont truly mean anything, as long as the law there to support the sovereign individual B) are much more accepting compared to 95% of world



You’ve also supported the idea deep-rooted oppression in your example of Nigerians, the immigrant mindset, is distinct from that of the group that has been oppressed for generations, even though they share skin pigment.

Native Americans were oppressed, and you are sitting on the internet debating with a random person because the entity you support, the U.S. government, stole their land.

Why dont you fight for native americans to get their land back?

O wait, all that matters is now. "Oppressed for generations" - i wont argue with that, but blacks arent oppressed now and that's all that matters within the Constitutional framework. Remember, this country is about the invididual. An african american's grandfather mightve been oppressed, but the current affrican amrican isnt, and is owed nothing (not even Affirmative Action)

For this last part, it’s hard to not be completely disgusted at the comment that “If black people were truly oppressed, they wouldnt be given opportunities to dominate American sports and athletics for millions of dollars.” This is just deplorable. You clearly have no understanding of American history. As discussed earlier, blacks have been systematically barred from many professions over the course of American history. Sports and entertainment industry was one of the earliest to become tolerant of blacks, only because of the huge financial advantages they provided to white businessmen. Boxing for example, was one of the first to allow blacks. You believe a sport that allowed bigoted white men to take advantage of young black men, pay them a fraction of their worth and watch them physically hurt each other is a gracious opportunity that blacks have been afforded? Many equate this to the attitude that blacks could only serve a role of entertainment for whites, but not as educators or positions of power. Still, racial discrimination was persistent black athletes were not compensated as much as whites. Sports are a true meritocracy. Blacks are not given opportunities to dominate sports, the best athlete makes the team, and the best athlete wins the game. There is no affirmative action blessing young, black kids like a fairy godmother with the opportunity to compete at the collegiate or professional level, it is a product of their physical ability. Take a poor black child in the hood that is athletic, offer him money to entertain the nation and make you even more money, he would be too centered on the fact that he is earning something to realize the inherent oppression and exploitation that is being done. He eventually makes more money than he could have imagined as a child in the ghetto. Finally, the reason you see so many black men in professional sports like basketball and football is because of this history of exploitation has led to a high valuation of sport professions in young minds. Children in poverty stricken areas have it ingrained in them that the only way to upward elevation is through a sport, or some other form of entertainment (singing, rapping, etc.).

It is not hard to be completely disgusted by the fact that you are willing to reject an ORM or white person from something just because of his skin colour.

It's also funny how youre playing off professional athletes as victims too, now LOL

I have plenty of understanding of American history - in fact i'd bet the farm that my knowledge and understanding of American history completely eclipses your tunnel vision. American history is irrelevant to this discussion, however. regardless of how much you keep bringin it up.

What really matters is knowledge and understanding of how a constitutional republic founded on Anglo-American principles should work, things of which you obviously are lacking in. History means jack. If my grandpa's family robbed your grandpa's family's house, you cannot sue me, understand? If blacks were oppressed before, modern day blacks cannot be given advantages at other groups' expense.

Finally, it's hilarious that you pick and choose what should be a merit-based and what shouldnt ....

It says youre a pre-med, so let me educate you on what the most important aspect of being a physician is - learning aptitude. Follwoing that, let me use the same sentence you did:

There is no affirmative action blessing young, Indian kids like a fairy godmother with the opportunity to compete at the collegiate or medical school level, it is a product of their scholastic ability
 
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This has taken an interesting turn, LOL!

This is an "interesting" thread to begin with.

People are asking "why are whites and ORM, who work their asses off to achieve their dreams of entering a highly competitive field, so upset that URMs can take their spots for half the effort/stats." gee whiz i wonder why LOL

SDN users, of all people, should know about how difficult it is for whites and ORM to get into medical school. To be rejected becasue your spot was taken on the basis of race is sickening to me. Imagine all that studying, volunteering, dreams of being a surgeon being thrown down the drain on basis of race. That is disgusting.

Like I said, I personally dont care if a URM takes advantage of the AA system. If an opportunity is there you take it. What does irk me is when they act like it's fair in American society, and then they go on to act like ORMs feeling upset is unwarranted.
 
If you're not even going to address the POSSIBILITY that poor levels of black medical education attainment is NOT entirely external forces- than I have no interest conversing with you. If you are so blinded by a persecution complex that every shortfall is explained by evil whites/asians persecuting the URM community- than f- this discussion. Seriously.

BTW- you wanted evidence that blacks do worse in medical school? Get real. A group doesn't trail behind in primary, secondary, college and then suddenly attain equal pairing. You can't admit a group with huge concessions on academic performance (affirmative action) and expect equal performance. According to this (albeit old data- find something more recent and prove me wrong- although people like you keep such things from being published) - whites fail to graduate medical school at a rate of 0.7% vs. 6.7% for blacks.

I hope you win your fight against the racist white professors/TAs/adcoms. :rolleyes:
 
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