Anti-URM

[Ms.Neurosurg]

Hey you guys, recently I asked some advice in the Pre-Med Allopathic section "What Are My Chances?". I initially received positive feedback and great commentary then suddenly the conversation turned and My stats were under attack. I was told that Although I was mediocre because of my ethnicity/race I would get in. Is this a common thing I will experience while on the Pre-Med Allopathic section., and what is your best advice for handling these types of situation in the future?

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[JessebenBenjamin]

I read the original post.
I was only one user who openly attacked you. Just ignore them honestly.

A lot of people are often bitter over the undeniable advantage URMs have.

 

[Ms.Neurosurg]

I read the original post.
I was only one user who openly attacked you. Just ignore them honestly.

A lot of people are often bitter over the undeniable advantage URMs have.

Thanks is there anyway to lock the thread or take it down?

 

[freemontie]

You will never be a neurosurgeon. Period. There are brilliant minority NS's, but they are never the people who rely on AA. Stop kidding yourself. Nobody cares about skin color that much.

 

[Ms.Neurosurg]

You will never be a neurosurgeon. Period. There are brilliant minority NS's, but they are never the people who rely on AA. Stop kidding yourself. Nobody cares about skin color that much.

Thanks!

 

[BajanBeauty]

You will never be a neurosurgeon. Period. There are brilliant minority NS's, but they are never the people who rely on AA. Stop kidding yourself. Nobody cares about skin color that much.

There is a such thing as too far. I don't think she was strictly relying on her AA status. I think she was just making a point to say what she had experienced on the other forum and was seeking advice. NO NEED TO BE A JERK!

 

[f4reignbeauty]

My advice: focus on the application cycle ahead, and don't let it get to you. You have bigger things to worry about and you CANNOT let others deter you from your goals.

 

[RoadScholar63]

In my opinion I think that URM status does play a role due to the fact that you don't see many of these URMs in medicine compared to other groups this is an issue that schools are seeking to fix by attempting to be more inclusive when it comes to the makeup of incoming classes. You have a chance

 

[Axes]

No one was really acting bitter about you having an advantage due to URM status. It makes sense that there should be programs to give representation to the underrepresented. Someone in that thread asked why someone had a good shot at schools with sub-median numbers, and someone else gave that guy the answer.

Either way, success is the best revenge.

 

[jorjorswens]

Hey you guys, recently I asked some advice in the Pre-Med Allopathic section "What Are My Chances?". I initially received positive feedback and great commentary then suddenly the conversation turned and My stats were under attack. I was told that Although I was mediocre because of my ethnicity/race I would get in. Is this a common thing I will experience while on the Pre-Med Allopathic section., and what is your best advice for handling these types of situation in the future?

Schools are not anti URM. Some people are mad because they need higher stats if they come from caucasion/Asian backgrounds. Don't let their words hurt you, just work hard because we need more URM in medicine. If you want to be a surgeon, you are the one with the most control of the situation. Don't give these people any pleasure. Work hard and be qualified for that residency. You can do it and it doesn't matter what race you are.

 

[LizLemongrab]

People forget that the reason there is AA is precisely to accommodate for inequality in SES during the formative years and how there is a matrix with other identities or demographic information. Low SES generally guarantees less adequate preparation for college.

Some would argue that it helps out high SES URM but even if that were the case, there's still a performance gap. This is purely anecdotal but when and where I grew up (less than 3% nonwhite at the time), almost all of the non-whites were socially excluded from mentoring networks that would have given them insider information which would make it easier to do well. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing occurred in undergrad resulting in a lower GPA. Fraternities/Sororities tend to have old exams to help out their members, lists of classes where it's easy to get an A, and then connections. I think these sorts of exclusions have a significant impact on GPA. I've yet to meet someone with a 3.5+ GPA who didn't have friends telling them which electives to take.

And I wouldn't think of it as Asians and white people needing "higher" stats. By that argument, people applying to service academies should complain because kids in wealthier congressional districts need higher stats than kids in rural, poorer districts. But I suppose the concept of institutionalized systems of privilege is foreign to a good chunk of people out there.

This is something worth considering when it comes to the anti-URM/anti-AA people, title says it all: http://thesocietypages.org/socimage...justice-but-mostly-when-they-are-its-victims/

 

[olivarynucleus]

Hey you guys, recently I asked some advice in the Pre-Med Allopathic section "What Are My Chances?". I initially received positive feedback and great commentary then suddenly the conversation turned and My stats were under attack. I was told that Although I was mediocre because of my ethnicity/race I would get in. Is this a common thing I will experience while on the Pre-Med Allopathic section., and what is your best advice for handling these types of situation in the future?

I'm a black med student, at least on SDN, they can be openly racist. In med school, you will face all kinds of passive aggressive racism, from people not taking your input seriously to not including you in group projects. Go to an HBCU if you can.

 

[takeurmeds02]

You have to keep in mind that this is just a website and to never take anything personal. That goes for challenges that you'll face in the future as well. We have to go into this field with a sharp mind and even-temper.

 

[LizLemongrab]

You have to keep in mind that this is just a website and to never take anything personal. That goes for challenges that you'll face in the future as well. We have to go into this field with a sharp mind and even-temper.

I for one keep a sh*tlist for people who appear to be acting on their prejudices or openly brag about doing so.

 

[jakeislove]

Anti-URM is pretty common here. Grow thicker skin or you'll miss out on a lot in life.

I often wonder what people would say with true anonymity and no moderators, LOL!

 

[deleted480308]

And I wouldn't think of it as Asians and white people needing "higher" stats.]

But they do.

I understand all of the arguments for why urm admissions advantage should/shouldn't exist but intellectual honesty should preclude you from denying it exists. At the end of the day, asian and white students need higher stats to have the same odds of admission.

 

[LizLemongrab]

But they do.

I understand all of the arguments for why urm admissions advantage should/shouldn't exist but intellectual honesty should preclude you from denying it exists. At the end of the day, asian and white students need higher stats to have the same odds of admission.

Intellectual honesty would also include the rest of what I mentioned... namely the effects of socialization and socioeconomic status on achievement.

And the reason I don't consider the stats higher is because like the service academies and 10% policy in Texas, there is a belief held by some (including myself) that merit is relative and needs context to be meaningful. The shorthand is likely SES+race. If you can't win against people similar to yourself, then...

<- kind of joking... but sometimes people should.

Rich kids of any race complaining about school/program admissions is like demanding to get first place even though you lost at your heat during a track meet to superior runners. Yes, you might be better than most of the runners there but that's not who you are racing against. Abby Fisher would do well to consider the concept but I guess the concept of relative merit terrifies the mediocre products of superior conditions.

 

[jakeislove]

Intellectual honesty would also include the rest of what I mentioned... namely the effects of socialization and socioeconomic status on achievement.

And the reason I don't consider the stats higher is because like the service academies and 10% policy in Texas, there is a belief held by some (including myself) that merit is relative and needs context to be meaningful. The shorthand is likely SES+race. If you can't win against people similar to yourself, then...

<- kind of joking... but sometimes people should.

Rich kids of any race complaining about school/program admissions is like demanding to get first place even though you lost at your heat during a track meet to superior runners. Yes, you might be better than most of the runners there but that's not who you are racing against. Abby Fisher would do well to consider the concept but I guess the concept of relative merit terrifies the mediocre products of superior conditions.

People pretend the playing field is level so their accomplishments feel more significant.

No matter what people tell themselves: There's a big difference between being born on second base and hitting a double.

 

[RoadScholar63]

I'm a URM and yes I've been privy to this knowledge of having a supposed advantage compared to my non-Hispanic white counterparts but the real question that has always befuddled me is why? Hmmmm... We all live in the same country, eat the same food, have access to the same quality of education, live in a safe and healthy environment.. Its very perplexing don't you think

 

[takeurmeds02]

I'm a URM and yes I've been privy to this knowledge of having a supposed advantage compared to my non-Hispanic white counterparts but the real question that has always befuddled me is why? Hmmmm... We all live in the same country, eat the same food, have access to the same quality of education, live in a safe and healthy environment.. Its very perplexing don't you think

Wait, are you being facetious?

 

[RoadScholar63]

Yeah I was being sarcastic/facetious haha

 

[Goro]

A) ignore it
B) "Living well is the best revenge" -George Bernard Shaw

The hate comes mostly from hyperacheivers who are appalled that God forbid, someone with lesser stats can get accepted before they can. The always forget that no one is entitled to a seat in med school. They also refuse to learn that the road travelled can be a compelling EC.

Hey you guys, recently I asked some advice in the Pre-Med Allopathic section "What Are My Chances?". I initially received positive feedback and great commentary then suddenly the conversation turned and My stats were under attack. I was told that Although I was mediocre because of my ethnicity/race I would get in. Is this a common thing I will experience while on the Pre-Med Allopathic section., and what is your best advice for handling these types of situation in the future?

 

[EvolutionaryRevolutionary]

@Goro I beg you please be my mentor! You are like the shining light to any storm!

A) ignore it
B) "Living well is the best revenge" -George Bernard Shaw

The hate comes mostly from hyperacheivers who are appalled that God forbid, someone with lesser stats can get accepted before they can. The always forget that no one is entitled to a seat in med school. They also refuse to learn that the road travelled can be a compelling EC.

 

[Goro]

Just send an app to my school! !

@Goro I beg you please be my mentor! You are like the shining light to any storm!

 

[EvolutionaryRevolutionary]

Just send an app to my school! !

Funny thing is I don't know what you work/attend school! The longest I have been part of SDN, you always make me remember how beautiful medicine is!!!

 

[Goro]

Just target somewhere west of the Missouri River.

Funny thing is I don't know what you work/attend school! The longest I have been part of SDN, you always make me remember how beautiful medicine is!!!

 

[ruedjgtc]

Just send an app to my school! !

This ended up being an uplifting interaction to a sour thread.

SDN, admittedly has its good side.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

Can someone explain to me why race based affirmative action is used instead of socioeconomic based affirmative action?

 

[MrsNonTraditionalMD]

Can someone explain to me why race based affirmative action is used instead of socioeconomic based affirmative action?

Because President Lyndon Johnson signed into Executive Order 11246.

 

[Mad Jack]

Can someone explain to me why race based affirmative action is used instead of socioeconomic based affirmative action?

Because there is a good deal of evidence that whites and Asians that grow up poor fair far better than blacks and Hispanics that grow up poor. On AMCAS, you can designate economically or educationally disadvantaged and it will give you bonus points if it fits your narrative. But being black or Latino has shown to be a bigger negative factor in one's life, and thus converts a larger advantage.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

Because there is a good deal of evidence that whites and Asians that grow up poor fair far better than blacks and Hispanics that grow up poor. On AMCAS, you can designate economically or educationally disadvantaged and it will give you bonus points if it fits your narrative. But being black or Latino has shown to be a bigger negative factor in one's life, and thus converts a larger advantage.

If poor Asians and whites fare better under the same circumstances should they not be rewarded for their abilities?

 

[Mad Jack]

If poor Asians and whites fare better under the same circumstances should they not be rewarded for their abilities?

They fare better largely due to inherent biases in the system. Experiments done with resumes that are identical but have a white candidate versus a black candidate showed that a black candidate would have to apply to the times as many jobs for a single callback, for instance. The schools poor blacks attend tend to be far worse than those attended by poor whites. Black children are far more likely to grow up in single-parent homes and with incarcerated parents than whites or Asians. Black students are punished mire severely than white students for the same offenses in schools. Social pressures in poor black communities tend to put up serious barriers to achievement, as the crab pot mentality tends to cause academic success to be met with social isolation. I mean, you may think racism and racial cultural and community differences are a thing of the past our whatever, but they very much aren't.

Why should doing well in a system that inherently favors you be rewarded more than doing well in a system that is mounted against you?

 

[Goro]

They are, since both are overrepresented in med school classes relative to their numbers in the population. Asians wildly so!

If poor Asians and whites fare better under the same circumstances should they not be rewarded for their abilities?

 

[Seth Joo]

If poor Asians and whites fare better under the same circumstances should they not be rewarded for their abilities?

If you really look at "Asians" there are actually groups that fare poorly, many immigrants from Southeast Asian countries like Myanmar, Cambodia, Vietnam, actually struggle in the United States and suffer from high rates of poverty. When people think of Asians that excel its mostly immigrants of East Asian origin.

Also URM can be confusing with some groups, I knew someone from undergrad whose family was from Spain but she listed herself as "Hispanic" on her application and got in under AA program, but people from Spain are white Europeans, and she totally got away with it, which I thought was ridiculous.

 

[Overanxious]

If you really look at "Asians" there are actually groups that fare poorly, many immigrants from Southeast Asian countries like Myanmar, Cambodia, Vietnam, actually struggle in the United States and suffer from high rates of poverty. When people think of Asians that excel its mostly immigrants of East Asian origin.

Also URM can be confusing with some groups, I knew someone from undergrad whose family was from Spain but she listed herself as "Hispanic" on her application and got in under AA program, but people from Spain are white Europeans, and she totally got away with it, which I thought was ridiculous.

Why wouldn't she? I think you are confused on the definition of Hispanic.

Hispanic = peoples from Spanish speaking countries (Spain is a Spanish speaking country thus people from Spain are hispanic)
Latino = peoples from latin american countries (people from Spain are not Latino; people from Brazil are latino but not hispanic; people from Columbia are both latino and hispanic)

 

[Seth Joo]

Why wouldn't she? I think you are confused on the definition of Hispanic.

Hispanic = peoples from Spanish speaking countries (Spain is a Spanish speaking country thus people from Spain are hispanic)
Latino = peoples from latin american countries (people from Spain are not Latino; people from Brazil are latino but not hispanic; people from Columbia are both latino and hispanic)

When schools are applying the affirmative action admissions policy when it comes to Hispanic students its usually to those students of color who often come from disadvantaged backgrounds, not students of white European origin like my former classmate. She essentially committed admissions fraud and got away with it. The interesting thing I recalled was that many of the URMs at my school were from rich families.

 

[Favour517]

When schools are applying the affirmative action admissions policy when it comes to Hispanic students its usually to those students of color who often come from disadvantaged backgrounds, not students of white European origin like my former classmate. She essentially committed admissions fraud and got away with it. The interesting thing I recalled was that many of the URMs at my school were from rich families.

its not always that way. For the most part, a lot of them are from poor homes

 

[Seth Joo]

its not always that way. For the most part, a lot of them are from poor homes

Its not always like that but I noticed a good number came from rich families.

 

[Favour517]

Its not always like that but I noticed a good number came from rich families.

Maybe they had very good scores? honestly though. rich minorities are rare